Actually, the keyboard shortcuts completely depend on the menu bar to work. I cannot think of a way that a non-power user could discover them more efficiently, other than the Help search box. Admittedly, I do not use any menu items in Safari myself, apart from Develop and Services, as I prefer direct mouse-based manipulation or keyboard shortcuts. The Services menu is horrible to use, just downright awkward. However, the highlight of a menu bar item is invaluable to show the correct shortcut has been entered and received, by the right app, and the required action is in the process of being undertaken whilst it stays highlighted. The fact that (should be) all applicable actions can be accessed or searched through at any time from one unobtrusive place, that cannot be lost or hidden (think palettes/NeXT) is a godsend in terms of using anyone else's account/computer or telling someone how to do somehing on their Mac remotely. From there, it's easy to progress to shortcuts or customised tool bars, and then to Automator/Scripts. But, from a design perspective and a new user perspective, there is no workable way to retain the huge functionality or discoverability with any other method. Who said icons instead? They're gonna have to be pretty recognisable and system-wide (perhaps closed to devs), and probably pretty big, would need text labels if not, kinda defeats the point. An easily-accessible list of possible commands is fantastic for anyone who is visually impaired or otherwise needs support when using a computer. Sometimes, some of us forget there are far, far more people using macs than us geeks.
Reflecting that edit above, Gosh. So many people love the idea of these pie-menus. As someone else said in another thread, they're not more efficient, the placement needs to be static between apps, it's easy to overshoot items, and sub-menus do not work with any imagining. Personally, I learnt doing human-computer interaction at uni that many of these "dream interfaces" are mainly unworkable and test really badly amongst users, like bumptop or a desktop multi-touch screen. There is no place for a complete paradigm-shift in the near future, the Mac user-base is still comparitively small, that will not increase if they become less discoverable. The best example of a truly new (or at least evolved) interface that really works is that of the double or category slider/scroller in the iPhone list views that include an A-Z. This has been studied in great depth by many interface designers, and is pulled off fantastically on the iPhone, the best implementation I have seen, as it is immediately intuitive. Things like this need to be seen on the Mac first, before we go all Pie-menu.
Actually, the keyboard shortcuts completely depend on the menu bar to work. I cannot think of a way that a non-power user could discover them more efficiently, other than the Help search box.
All I meant by "depend" was that keyboard shortcuts don't require the Menu Bar in order to exist. That is the truth.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
the highlight of a menu bar item is invaluable to show the correct shortcut has been entered and received, by the right app, and the required action is in the process of being undertaken whilst it stays highlighted. The fact that (should be) all applicable actions can be accessed or searched through at any time from one unobtrusive place, that cannot be lost or hidden (think palettes/NeXT) is a godsend in terms of using anyone else's account/computer or telling someone how to do somehing on their Mac remotely. From there, it's easy to progress to shortcuts or customised tool bars, and then to Automator/Scripts.
But, from a design perspective and a new user perspective, there is no workable way to retain the huge functionality or discoverability with any other method.
Says you. There are more visual ways of displaying different processes than the highlighting of a Menu Bar item that exist today, like...loading bars and other indicators.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Who said icons instead? They're gonna have to be pretty recognisable and system-wide (perhaps closed to devs), and probably pretty big, would need text labels if not, kinda defeats the point. An easily-accessible list of possible commands is fantastic for anyone who is visually impaired or otherwise needs support when using a computer. Sometimes, some of us forget there are far, far more people using macs than us geeks.
So you think menus of text are more intuitive than, say, a Play button in iTunes?
As for contextual menus outside of the Menu Bar, other than right-clicking, did you ever see the Finder's amazing Action button!?
Gosh. So many people love the idea of these pie-menus. As someone else said in another thread, they're not more efficient
Whoa whoa whoa, where did I say a HUD would be more "efficient"? I hope I didn't use that word anywhere because mousing around a HUD or Menu Bar will never be as "efficient" as keyboard shortcuts, I agree.
On that note, I wonder why we have object oriented operating systems at all.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
the placement needs to be static between apps
Ooh, that'll be hard to do, NOT.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
it's easy to overshoot items, and sub-menus do not work with any imagining.
Argh, I should have said "one mockup". I don't necessarily think a pie-menu is the answer, just something visual and HUD-like.
With that understood, do you find the command-tab interface to be "easy to overshoot?"
Well everyone I have a good idea to what's going on in the world of apple. Possibly, a new iphone could be unveiled at WWDC and it will be the new iphone everyone is expecting the one with the supposed chinese screen shot (Iphone 2,1). However at another event perhaps a month later apple could unveil...wait for it THE IPHONE PRO. (Iphone 3,1)
I know it's a little out there in terms of actually happening but if you think about it, it goes together nicely with lots of the rumors. For example the whole "Iphone 3,1" thing operating under the 3.0 software. Also wasn't there a rumor about a 3.2 megapixel camera order with a 5.0 megapixel camera coming later on in the year? Hopefully it will go on the Iphone pro. Also this could be the family of iphones mentioned above and would be a nice way to welcome Steve back- by introducing a device nobody thought possible ( 64 gigs, 5 meg camera, 1Ghz processor, slide out keyboard or keyboard "attachement" to appeal to business/former blackberry users?)
Cmd-Tab is not analogue, like xy coords, it requires a discrete number of key presses. But yeah, it can be over-shot through a random fumbling. Re: NOT (so Borat), most apps do not have the same amount of menu items, so yeah, it would be hard to do. It doesn't even quite work with the current menu bar, muscle-memory-wise, but at least they're all at the top of the screen. Dan comes up with some great ideas, but his most fanciful never come to fruition in the way he sees it, simply because there are many people far more experienced, and perhaps cleverer than him thinking about the same problems.
Something else I was thinking about: Since my swap to Safari 4, I've done a a few double-mouse-takes going for the refresh button, only to remember it's moved. I've also started to click on the Add Tab button, when I would seldom double click the tab bar before (unless the keyboard was off somewhere). Anyway, I realised this: Apple bringing items out of the menu, and not letting me remove them from my interface or move about them has actually decreased my efficiency rather dramatically, and, somewhat strangely, actually decreased my use of quicker keyboard shortcuts. I know that sounds odd, but it really is true for me. Anyone?
In any case, for me at least, any more arbitrary changes with no clear benefits (such as replacing the menu bar) would have me pulling even more metaphorical hair out, doubtless the same for others, potentially outweighing any possible benefits for existing users. New users I've already covered.
Interesting you haven't commented on accessibility. I suppose there really is no argument against the menu bar for anyone but yourself, or other fully-capable power users (incl. me I s'pose... )
PS I think maybe I was a little harsh on the ol' Prince of Drafts (as he is often known...), he's just not researched it enough for my liking.
slide out keyboard or keyboard "attachement" to appeal to business/former blackberry users?)
Will never happen.
The rest is feasible though, yeah. Not sure whether it could be more differentiated than that, though. I have a feeling there's a strong desire (from devs, at least) for the iPod touch to include more iPhone-exclusive hardware/ for the iPhone to get a faster processor, decreasing the disparity between the existing products. We'll have to see if Apple listens to them. If you are correct, I'll be frickin' kicking myself if I get a new iPhone this summer. And they're so not going to warn us either. Almost worth waiting forever though, with Apple.
Cmd-Tab is not analogue, like xy coords, it requires a discrete number of key presses.
That's all I ever meant: a pop-up HUD, which would be activated by keyboard press, or a specified keyboard button, or an on-screen icon. It wouldn't be there all the time, just when you needed it.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
But yeah, it can be over-shot through a random fumbling.
Not if you hit tab, tab, tab. Shoot, now you can do it with a 4-finger swipe.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Re: NOT (so Borat)
This suit is black pause NOT. Thanks for reminding me of that movie.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
most apps do not have the same amount of menu items, so yeah, it would be hard to do.
I'm not necessarily talking about app-specific functions, but system-wide things like cut copy paste, Send as Email, translate, etc. It's nice that there are Menu Bar commands for these under File or Services, but if no one ever uses the Services, it defeats the point of including said functions.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
It doesn't even quite work with the current menu bar, muscle-memory-wise, but at least they're all at the top of the screen. Dan comes up with some great ideas, but his most fanciful never come to fruition in the way he sees it, simply because there are many people far more experienced, and perhaps cleverer than him thinking about the same problems.
Sure but first, I want to reiterate that while my ramblings are influenced by Dan's post, I really don't think pie-shaped contextual HUDs are the way to go. I don't know exactly what it would look like; I leave that up to Apple.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Something else I was thinking about: Since my swap to Safari 4, I've done a a few double-mouse-takes going for the refresh button, only to remember it's moved. I've also started to click on the Add Tab button, when I would seldom double click the tab bar before (unless the keyboard was off somewhere). Anyway, I realised this: Apple bringing items out of the menu, and not letting me remove them from my interface or move about them has actually decreased my efficiency rather dramatically, and, somewhat strangely, actually decreased my use of quicker keyboard shortcuts. I know that sounds odd, but it really is true for me. Anyone?
Well exactly, that's where I was coming from with my button bar ideas, though I don't know how that would fair either. It's not more efficient but it's far more intuitive to have visual elements, whether they be buttons or some HUD.
Haha, it's funny, I had the same reaction to Safari 4 as you, yet we have opposing behaviors. In Safari 3, I often double-clicked the tab bar to create new tabs. Now that that functionality is gone, I use the keyboard shortcut!! I know that seems hypocritical but my reasoning is this: I get tired of telling people how to use Macs, especially Safari. When I saw Safari 4's obvious (+) New Tab button, I rejoiced even though I knew I'd rarely, if ever, use it myself.
With most web browsers, many non-power users (which I like to think I'm not, but I probably am) have no clue about tabbed browsing unless they randomly discover it in a menu or by surprise. Opera has had a New Tab button for a while now, but few use Opera. I give Google's Chrome much of the credit for making tabbed browsing very clear and obvious. Safari 4 took it a step further and I don't think it's a fluke. I would not be surprised to see the Finder, TextEdit, and other apps that benefit from tabbed browsing to gain the Safari 4 New Tab button.
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
In any case, for me at least, any more arbitrary changes with no clear benefits (such as replacing the menu bar) would have me pulling even more metaphorical hair out, doubtless the same for others, potentially outweighing any possible benefits for existing users. New users I've already covered.
So wait, do you rely more on searching through the Menu Bar or on keyboard commands (in most apps, Safari 4 aside)?
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Originally Posted by TimmyDax
Interesting you haven't commented on accessibility. I suppose there really is no argument against the menu bar for anyone but yourself, or other fully-capable power users (incl. me I s'pose... )
What about accessibility? Why couldn't a HUD or visual display for a system standard clipboard, for instance, be more intuitive than the Menu Bar alternative?
Also, I'd really like to hear your impressions on the Action menu in Finder windows.
... I think we're getting a little off-topic, and have kinda hijacked this thread. Needless to say, I think most interface changes we be in the form of a "new skin" rather than anything drastic with the menu bar, as people have already said, though what would Apple change? I want more transparent menus back, though my love-affair with the menu bar is already on record, anything more sheer will do me...
It wouldn't be there all the time, just when you needed it.
Agreed, though keyboard-based with mousing alternative like cmd-tab, yeah?
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Originally Posted by wobegon
This suit is black pause NOT.
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Originally Posted by wobegon
if no one ever uses the Services, it defeats the point of including said functions.
Agreed, there is a desperate need for this.
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Originally Posted by wobegon
I want to reiterate... ramblings...
Fair.
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Originally Posted by wobegon
Well exactly, that's where I was coming from... So wait...?
Yeah, not sure. Always use cmd-T, me and my girl have a stupid joke about Apple Tea even though there are no open apples now It's f*ed up all my behaviours in Safari, so ingrained after countless hours. The tab bar and button were actually real easy compared to that damn elusive refresh button. Though I've started using cmd-. now I have to hover. What's wrong with displaying progress, too? Improved add bookmark behaviour might have been nice to go along with that permanent button as well, maybe like hold it down actions (tabs, folder, then full bookmark browser in sheet?) This could go on for a while.
Depends how much I use the app. Menus for less-used apps, then toolbar/shortcuts mostly, yeah.
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Originally Posted by wobegon
I would not be surprised to see the Finder, TextEdit, and other apps...
Maybe. It breaks the document model a little though. Would be nice for Pages for me.
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Originally Posted by wobegon
What about accessibility? ... Action menu in Finder windows.
Ah... it's to do with the nature of text. Chances are a text-alternative or labels would be necessary anyway for screen readers etc. Great to be able to type first letter have it jump, generally uniform unlike Windows menus will have many icons etc. next to items, easily translatable into other languages compared to say pictures (does this mean what I think it means, eg. emoji, these fellas \). It's mainly why they changed the transparency in the early days of leopard, my friend got an email from Apple to that effect when he complained about legibility/accessibility. Damn him! Well that may be a little harsh. Still, Action button/menu... why? Just why does it exist? We all have right click and/or the menu bar (or even control-click). It doesn't even have "More", so it's actually worse. Horrible. Take it out back and shoot it whilst you still can. Not as bad as the Spotlight Show All window/Finder/Non-customisable despite actually setting it up in plist only works with cmd-f if no other finder windows open/no categories/no need for most of the finder chrome for a search results window. Just "simplified" in the worst possible way. I won't use it. If it's not in the top results, I'm not being specific enough. Menus are really useful coming off the right-hand icons for diagnostics, simple tasks etc. Wish could turn 3G on/off etc. by tapping the status bar on the iPhone. Such a pain to go to the settings app for everything. [/RANT]
edit: Realised hate for action button not really congruent with want for pretty much the same thing on the bookmarks button in safari. I may just be irrational.
Agreed, though keyboard-based with mousing alternative like cmd-tab, yeah?
Yes. And I think Apple would have to do something to encourage the use of such a thing otherwise it might wind up like Dashboard: some know about it but many people don't. (Separately, I think it would make sense to move the Dashboard into the multitouch trackpad display that Dan also envisioned; probably one widget at a time and a way to pull down elements into the display for direct manipulation.)
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The tab bar and button were actually real easy compared to that damn elusive refresh button. Though I've started using cmd-. now I have to hover.
Hover over what? The refresh button?
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What's wrong with displaying progress, too?
You're talking about the removal of the progress bar in the address field, right? I miss it to some degree, but it was only ever an approximation. Maybe they're trying to find a non-Aqua way of displaying progress aside from the spinner.
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Improved add bookmark behaviour might have been nice to go along with that permanent button as well, maybe like hold it down actions (tabs, folder, then full bookmark browser in sheet?) This could go on for a while.
Depends how much I use the app. Menus for less-used apps, then toolbar/shortcuts mostly, yeah.
Ok. As for the behaviors, you want those to appear when pressing the Add Bookmark button!? You already get a list of tabs when you've opened over 12 tabs and what's nice about Safari 4's tabs compared to Safari 3 and Chrome is that they resize when selected, making their titles readable.
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Maybe. It breaks the document model a little though. Would be nice for Pages for me.
Agreed. I like Expose for that stuff and maybe I should change it so it only exposes the documents within the application, but for many new users, they end up minimizing things to the Dock in order to see what's open. Cycling through windows using command-` is no fun either. While tabs shouldn't be implemented for every app, document-based apps (and perhaps the Finder) should at least have the option IMO by way of the + button in the title bar of the window.
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Ah... it's to do with the nature of text.
Hmm, the more I think about it, the more the Menu Bar seems like a necessary evil or at least something similar. That's why I asked your opinion on the Action menu. I see it as a nice alternative to scrapping all text menus from applications, which would be a mistake. But then again, maybe the HUD should replace the idea of an Action button/menu instead of replacing the Menu Bar.
...move the Dashboard into the multitouch trackpad display
That'd be cool, but the more I think about it, the more I think that it's like moving the touch-sensitive area into the display: Ergonomically, it doesn't fit well with laptops. It would be OK for short bursts of efficient use, but not a constant thing, and not a necessary thing, just an option for someone who likes to keep an eye on the weather, or whatever, the equivalent of having desktop {as opposed to dashboard} widgets.
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Hover over what? The refresh button?
Yeah, I was feeling a little guilty about derailing the thread, but it's really dead now anyway so there's no need to be brief ah well. Yeah, to make it go from the spinner to the stop {on hover} it sometimes takes a little bit to change or whatever, leading to hesitant clicks or too many, or whatever, then the page refreshes blah. Cmd-point/fullstop (.) works easier now for me, but that's more a fault {in the program} than an advantage of shortcuts imo.
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I miss it to some degree, but it was only ever an approximation.
True, but it was at least some indication. Now I find myself staring at the status bar trying to figure out if it's taking too long to connect or whatever, it's just a step backwards. At least do like firefox and have one in the status bar too, most people don't use it {the status bar} anyway, where's the harm?
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Add Bookmark button!?
Yeah I said that weirdly. As with the back/forward buttons, holding down the add bookmark might show "Add Bookmark For These 5 Tabs" or "Add Bookmark Folder" etc. as well. Then, on the sheet, have a down arrow {like on printers or save/open} where you could do all the manipulation of the bookmarks page {Show All Bookmarks}. This is something I still miss from Windows is that the open/save dialogs were, in effect, Finder (well, Explorer) windows allowing all actions permissible in the shell like copy/paste, rename etc.
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Agreed. I like Expose for that stuff and...
Yeah, I really would have thought Apple would be better at handling tabbed interfaces, the Window menu has some good stuff normally, and a right-click on the Docked app icon shows the same, exposé of course as well, spaces is nice etc. So what's with tabs? One list when you (essentially) have too many tabs open in one window? Each item on the {Window} menu {or on a right click of the app's icon} should be a submenu or something like that to let the user alternatively choose between the tabs on that page too. Or the "Application Windows" Exposé could show all tabs seperately, whilst the "All Windows" showed only windows (as you might expect). Something like this is quite needed, though there would have to be an API, and it's probably not going to work with Firefox or anything with non-native code/widgets and chrome. Terminal and Safari are different now too, it seems a common API has been scrapped for the time-being. Shame.
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a necessary evil
For us, that's probably quite right.
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...the Action menu... a nice alternative to scrapping all text menus
Yeah, I can see that, I would just never use it instead of right-click when you're most likely already hovering over the item you want to manipulate. Seems like old mac thinking
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maybe the HUD should replace the idea of an Action button/menu
It'd be nice to get more out of get info/inspector windows, and some sort of preference to have one or the other or combine them somehow with two sections. At least the finder has different title bars. It can get just damn confusing in QuickTime, for example, and some apps only have inspector, some get info (iTunes ) with weird next/previous item or being able to select objects behind or not etc. Get info appears in exposé, inspector just ethereally melts away? I'm sorry, what? It kinda makes sense, but why? And iCal? don't get me started. The property dialogs in Windows are more uniform across its programs than that. And I friggin hate Windows. {I digress...} Point was, all these floating windows and HUDs (incl. Quick Look and others) could be unified with predictable behaviours and more functionality, or broken up when there is just too much information in one panel. Unified HUDs would sell me on Snow Leopard/10.7/10.8 whatever. {and more HUD functionality would be fantastic, yes}
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Whew, I did sort of derail this thread, huh?
Yeah, well, I guess we killed it together, people are using other threads for pointless speculation now anyways. At least we're discussing something somewhat useful.
That'd be cool, but the more I think about it, the more I think that it's like moving the touch-sensitive area into the display: Ergonomically, it doesn't fit well with laptops. It would be OK for short bursts of efficient use, but not a constant thing, and not a necessary thing, just an option for someone who likes to keep an eye on the weather, or whatever, the equivalent of having desktop {as opposed to dashboard} widgets.
How does it not fit well with Apple's MacBooks? They already have glass, MultiTouch trackpads. Mac OS X's gestures aren't "necessary" - you can scroll most windows with the arrow keys, for instance. But I and many others appreciate two-finger scrolling because it's more natural.
Which is more intuitive and natural, the iPod classic with its static click wheel, or the iPod touch with its gestures and touch display? Of course a trackpad display wouldn't be something you use constantly: that's what an iPhone/iPod touch is for. But for those instances where direct touch manipulation is preferable to indirect mousing—turning dials in a GarageBand widget, turning up/down the sound with the iTunes widget perhaps even while in another application, doodling and using burn effects on pictures in an iPhoto widget, placing pins and moving the path in Google Maps pulled down into the trackpad, or as you say, taking a glance at the weather—what other alternatives are there?
We already agree that simply slapping a touch screen on the main display like HP's horrendous TouchSmart PCs is impractical and uncomfortable. LIkewise, a super-sized iPhone or iPod touch-like tablet isn't ergonomic, nor would it be affordable. Replacing the MacBook's physical keyboard with a big touchscreen ain't happening. That leaves the trackpad or a tethered (wired or wireless) iPhone or iPod touch acting as an external touch controller. The latter option truly makes it optional, which would greatly impact developer interest.
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Yeah, to make it go from the spinner to the stop {on hover} it sometimes takes a little bit to change or whatever, leading to hesitant clicks or too many, or whatever, then the page refreshes blah. Cmd-point/fullstop (.) works easier now for me, but that's more a fault {in the program} than an advantage of shortcuts imo.
I see. I swore in Safari 3 you only needed to hit Escape and it would pause loading, but that isn't the case with Safari 4. \ Maybe I'm just imagining things. But you don't have to wait for the spinner to become an X, it recognizes the click regardless; try it.
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True, but it was at least some indication. Now I find myself staring at the status bar trying to figure out if it's taking too long to connect or whatever, it's just a step backwards. At least do like firefox and have one in the status bar too, most people don't use it {the status bar} anyway, where's the harm?
Well if most people don't use the optional status bar, why bother including a load bar in there?
I remember going to some sites where it never stopped loading (*cough* Gmail *cough*), which was very distracting. I think Apple could show loading on the spinner itself by shading in the spinner as it loads. I'm 80% sure there was a way to turn on radial loading like that in Safari 3, similar to the hidden option to open all new windows in tabs. I'll try to find a link to radial loading...if it actually exists.
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Yeah I said that weirdly. As with the back/forward buttons, holding down the add bookmark might show "Add Bookmark For These 5 Tabs" or "Add Bookmark Folder" etc. as well. Then, on the sheet, have a down arrow {like on printers or save/open} where you could do all the manipulation of the bookmarks page {Show All Bookmarks}. This is something I still miss from Windows is that the open/save dialogs were, in effect, Finder (well, Explorer) windows allowing all actions permissible in the shell like copy/paste, rename etc.
Ooh, agreed. You can do "Add Bookmarks for these # tabs" with a ctrl-click on Safari 4's title bar, but your suggestion is both visual and logical.
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Yeah, I really would have thought Apple would be better at handling tabbed interfaces, the Window menu has some good stuff normally, and a right-click on the Docked app icon shows the same, exposé of course as well, spaces is nice etc. So what's with tabs? One list when you (essentially) have too many tabs open in one window? Each item on the {Window} menu {or on a right click of the app's icon} should be a submenu or something like that to let the user alternatively choose between the tabs on that page too. Or the "Application Windows" Exposé could show all tabs seperately, whilst the "All Windows" showed only windows (as you might expect). Something like this is quite needed, though there would have to be an API, and it's probably not going to work with Firefox or anything with non-native code/widgets and chrome. Terminal and Safari are different now too, it seems a common API has been scrapped for the time-being. Shame.
Some good suggestions, particularly the breaking apart of tabbed windows when using the app-specific Expose command. This could also be something the super duper multitouch trackpad display (or the equally amazing HUD, haha) could do. Look at Safari on the iPhone and how it handles multiple websites: scroll through via swiping gestures. The same thing could be done in the trackpad. They could also allow the History Cover Flow to be done in the trackpad as well. Separately, when in iTunes, using the iPhone's far more useful implementation of Cover Flow (i.e., tap album cover to view songs) combined with iTunes 8's more useful Group Artists setting+Grid View (which makes iTunes 8 a lot like iPhoto, but for music) and you've got something special (if you followed all that stuff in parenthesis). Scrolling through artists in the trackpad using Cover Flow would be sweet, perhaps with a A-Z UI line (which you noted earlier).
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Yeah, I can see that, I would just never use it instead of right-click when you're most likely already hovering over the item you want to manipulate. Seems like old mac thinking
Just in terms of posture, really, couldn't use it for any period of time. I would love it for levels in garageband, or (please!) a system-wide equaliser like in iTunes, yeah. Another example could be zoomed-in view of an image for editing. Fantastic potential. I've been wanting it since RDM suggested it. I can just understand why Apple could find it somewhat awkward, and I think it's been complicated by their studies into the low-friction glass trackpads and putting the button underneath in the last revision. I don't think they'd do it without a lot more obsessive thought than most people are comfortable with It would be awesome though.
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... only needed to hit Escape ... you don't have to wait for the spinner
Yeah, that's certainly the case in Firefox, and I could have sworn it was in Safari before, too. I still use cmd-shift-[ and ] or cmd-{ and } if you like to change tabs, that still works, weirdly.
I normally don't wait for the spinner, but then safari will hang or something, best just to stay away from it
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Well if most people don't use the optional status bar, why bother
um. Firefox do? I don't know. You're right there.
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some sites where it never stopped loading
That certainly has happened before to me, I usually just refresh on automatic
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radial loading...if it actually exists.
Yeah, it seems to, but removes any ability to have a stop/refresh button it seems?edit: I actually read it, apparently you just have to manually add it back as a stand-alone button.
I was sort of trying to provide a counter-example, in a way. It frustrates me that the add bookmark button is non-removable. As a somewhat necessary/permanent element (the bookmark/address/stop/progress/search/RSS/SnapBack control), that button should at least do a couple of things You're right, a right click on the tab bar (strangely title bar, seems weird to say that) does it anyway. It would be nice to enable Autoclick (like bookmark bar folders of bookmarks) for the bookmark menu, in that a click on the folder would open it in tabs, where's currently, it does nothing other than close the menu on a secondary click. Maybe it should be disabled by default, only enabled when bookmarking a set of tabs together?
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scroll through via swiping gestures.
Do you not use a two-fingered sidewards scroll for that now? It frustrates me how badly it works in the iTS, and also doesn't on the apple website, but meh
Either scrolling through active tabs with cover flow or having them laid out in a grid like top sites could be really cool, the blanks in the final row would be fine. A shortcut of just the number keys (as opposed to cmd-number for bookmarks) could work well for well 9 tabs or so.
Exactly. No matter how much SJ's health improves he won't return to the stage. He may guest appear but it will never again be a solo act. It must be a huge weight of his, and everybody else's shoulders that the company has managed to move away from the 'one-man-show' thing. The prediction for years has been that the moment he steps away, Apple is finished. The jury is still out on that one of course, but without him on stage a lot of the pressure is off.
Personally, I care whether he gets well because he happens to be a 'fellow human' but I'm not waiting for him to 'come back' because unlike Apple over a decade ago, its a completely different beast today. Mac OS X can be easily upgraded, expanded and enhanced; most importantly, management is being developed organically within Apple with the best rising to the top based on talent - rather than the situation of Microsoft where the one with the loudest voice and the biggest ego rises to the top.
I must be the only person here who actually likes the Finder and how everything actually is; the Cocoa finder apparently is far superior when it comes to responsiveness, OpenCL and Grand Central (FYI, stop calling it GC, GC stands for garbage collector - it does NOT mean Grand Central) has improved the speed when it comes to general 'teh snappy' along with improvements in video compression speed.
Maybe a unified theme would be nice, but apart from that, I am happy with how things are.
Just in terms of posture, really, couldn't use it for any period of time. I would love it for levels in garageband, or (please!) a system-wide equaliser like in iTunes, yeah. Another example could be zoomed-in view of an image for editing. Fantastic potential. I've been wanting it since RDM suggested it. I can just understand why Apple could find it somewhat awkward, and I think it's been complicated by their studies into the low-friction glass trackpads and putting the button underneath in the last revision. I don't think they'd do it without a lot more obsessive thought than most people are comfortable with It would be awesome though.
Yeah, I'm sure they want to get it right if they decide to do it. I'm not sure how bad it would be for posture. Perhaps they could angle either the physical trackpad display itself or angle how the trackpad displays the interface so it appears visually correct while looking at it at the usual viewing angle. This would allow you to manipulate things without craning your neck over the trackpad.
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That certainly has happened before to me, I usually just refresh on automatic
Hopefully in not so distant future we will no longer have to refresh the page at all. Things will just appear dynamically, pushed from the server.
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Yeah, it seems to, but removes any ability to have a stop/refresh button it seems?edit: I actually read it, apparently you just have to manually add it back as a stand-alone button.
Whoa, you found it. I guess I should have tried "pie-chart style", instead of "radial" in google. Why Apple doesn't use this is beyond me, if only for the currently active tab.
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I was sort of trying to provide a counter-example, in a way. It frustrates me that the add bookmark button is non-removable. As a somewhat necessary/permanent element (the bookmark/address/stop/progress/search/RSS/SnapBack control), that button should at least do a couple of things You're right, a right click on the tab bar (strangely title bar, seems weird to say that) does it anyway. It would be nice to enable Autoclick (like bookmark bar folders of bookmarks) for the bookmark menu, in that a click on the folder would open it in tabs, where's currently, it does nothing other than close the menu on a secondary click. Maybe it should be disabled by default, only enabled when bookmarking a set of tabs together?
Yeah. Well, you know you can command-click on a Bookmarks Bar folder and it will open all of the bookmarks within said folder in separate tabs, right? If you have a folder in the Bookmarks Bar full of RSS feeds and command-click that, it will open all the feeds in one window.
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Do you not use a two-fingered sidewards scroll for that now?
Yes, but I wasn't suggesting to simply move iTunes existing Cover Flow into the trackpad display, I was saying give it the same behavior as the iPhone's Cover Flow. In other words, you could cycle through the albums then tap one with your finger to have it flip around (as they do on the iPhone and iPod touch) and show you the songs therein. This would be far more intuitive than navigating on the main display using a combination of two-finger horizontal scrolling and clicking on individual songs with the pointer in iTunes 8. Is that clearer?
In addition, it would be nice for Cover Flow on the Mac and iPhone/iPod touch to support Artist Grouping, which associates an artist with album art (similar to how iPhoto lets you set a picture in a given Event to one of the pictures therein). Currently this feature only works in Grid View in iTunes 8.
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Either scrolling through active tabs with cover flow or having them laid out in a grid like top sites could be really cool, the blanks in the final row would be fine. A shortcut of just the number keys (as opposed to cmd-number for bookmarks) could work well for well 9 tabs or so.
Doh, forgot about Top Sites! Never mind about navigating bookmarks with Cover Flow (though that could work too, I guess).
Yeah, I'm sure they want to get it right if they decide to do it. I'm not sure how bad it would be for posture. Perhaps they could angle either the physical trackpad display itself or angle how the trackpad displays the interface so it appears visually correct while looking at it at the usual viewing angle. This would allow you to manipulate things without craning your neck over the trackpad.
It really has to offer both a touch screen AND pad or mouse.
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Yes, but I wasn't suggesting to simply move iTunes existing Cover Flow into the trackpad display, I was saying give it the same behavior as the iPhone's Cover Flow. In other words, you could cycle through the albums then tap one with your finger to have it flip around (as they do on the iPhone and iPod touch) and show you the songs therein.
Do you find it awkward that to push photos off to the left (in coverflow) on the iPhone involves sweeping a finger to the left, but on the Mac trackpad involves 2 fingers sweeping to the right?
Comments
Actually, the keyboard shortcuts completely depend on the menu bar to work. I cannot think of a way that a non-power user could discover them more efficiently, other than the Help search box.
All I meant by "depend" was that keyboard shortcuts don't require the Menu Bar in order to exist.
the highlight of a menu bar item is invaluable to show the correct shortcut has been entered and received, by the right app, and the required action is in the process of being undertaken whilst it stays highlighted. The fact that (should be) all applicable actions can be accessed or searched through at any time from one unobtrusive place, that cannot be lost or hidden (think palettes/NeXT) is a godsend in terms of using anyone else's account/computer or telling someone how to do somehing on their Mac remotely. From there, it's easy to progress to shortcuts or customised tool bars, and then to Automator/Scripts.
But, from a design perspective and a new user perspective, there is no workable way to retain the huge functionality or discoverability with any other method.
Says you. There are more visual ways of displaying different processes than the highlighting of a Menu Bar item that exist today, like...loading bars and other indicators.
Who said icons instead? They're gonna have to be pretty recognisable and system-wide (perhaps closed to devs), and probably pretty big, would need text labels if not, kinda defeats the point. An easily-accessible list of possible commands is fantastic for anyone who is visually impaired or otherwise needs support when using a computer. Sometimes, some of us forget there are far, far more people using macs than us geeks.
So you think menus of text are more intuitive than, say, a Play button in iTunes?
As for contextual menus outside of the Menu Bar, other than right-clicking, did you ever see the Finder's amazing Action button!?
Reflecting that edit above
Sorry, I'm bad about making lots of edits.
Gosh. So many people love the idea of these pie-menus. As someone else said in another thread, they're not more efficient
Whoa whoa whoa, where did I say a HUD would be more "efficient"? I hope I didn't use that word anywhere because mousing around a HUD or Menu Bar will never be as "efficient" as keyboard shortcuts, I agree.
On that note, I wonder why we have object oriented operating systems at all.
the placement needs to be static between apps
Ooh, that'll be hard to do, NOT.
it's easy to overshoot items, and sub-menus do not work with any imagining.
Argh, I should have said "one mockup". I don't necessarily think a pie-menu is the answer, just something visual and HUD-like.
With that understood, do you find the command-tab interface to be "easy to overshoot?"
I know it's a little out there in terms of actually happening but if you think about it, it goes together nicely with lots of the rumors. For example the whole "Iphone 3,1" thing operating under the 3.0 software. Also wasn't there a rumor about a 3.2 megapixel camera order with a 5.0 megapixel camera coming later on in the year? Hopefully it will go on the Iphone pro. Also this could be the family of iphones mentioned above and would be a nice way to welcome Steve back- by introducing a device nobody thought possible ( 64 gigs, 5 meg camera, 1Ghz processor, slide out keyboard or keyboard "attachement" to appeal to business/former blackberry users?)
Let me know what you think.
Something else I was thinking about: Since my swap to Safari 4, I've done a a few double-mouse-takes going for the refresh button, only to remember it's moved. I've also started to click on the Add Tab button, when I would seldom double click the tab bar before (unless the keyboard was off somewhere). Anyway, I realised this: Apple bringing items out of the menu, and not letting me remove them from my interface or move about them has actually decreased my efficiency rather dramatically, and, somewhat strangely, actually decreased my use of quicker keyboard shortcuts. I know that sounds odd, but it really is true for me. Anyone?
In any case, for me at least, any more arbitrary changes with no clear benefits (such as replacing the menu bar) would have me pulling even more metaphorical hair out, doubtless the same for others, potentially outweighing any possible benefits for existing users. New users I've already covered.
Interesting you haven't commented on accessibility. I suppose there really is no argument against the menu bar for anyone but yourself, or other fully-capable power users (incl. me I s'pose...
PS I think maybe I was a little harsh on the ol' Prince of Drafts (as he is often known...), he's just not researched it enough for my liking.
slide out keyboard or keyboard "attachement" to appeal to business/former blackberry users?)
Will never happen.
The rest is feasible though, yeah. Not sure whether it could be more differentiated than that, though. I have a feeling there's a strong desire (from devs, at least) for the iPod touch to include more iPhone-exclusive hardware/ for the iPhone to get a faster processor, decreasing the disparity between the existing products. We'll have to see if Apple listens to them. If you are correct, I'll be frickin' kicking myself if I get a new iPhone this summer. And they're so not going to warn us either. Almost worth waiting forever though, with Apple.
Cmd-Tab is not analogue, like xy coords, it requires a discrete number of key presses.
But yeah, it can be over-shot through a random fumbling.
Not if you hit tab, tab, tab. Shoot, now you can do it with a 4-finger swipe.
Re: NOT (so Borat)
This suit is black pause NOT.
most apps do not have the same amount of menu items, so yeah, it would be hard to do.
I'm not necessarily talking about app-specific functions, but system-wide things like cut copy paste, Send as Email, translate, etc. It's nice that there are Menu Bar commands for these under File or Services, but if no one ever uses the Services, it defeats the point of including said functions.
It doesn't even quite work with the current menu bar, muscle-memory-wise, but at least they're all at the top of the screen. Dan comes up with some great ideas, but his most fanciful never come to fruition in the way he sees it, simply because there are many people far more experienced, and perhaps cleverer than him thinking about the same problems.
Sure but first, I want to reiterate that while my ramblings are influenced by Dan's post, I really don't think pie-shaped contextual HUDs are the way to go. I don't know exactly what it would look like; I leave that up to Apple.
Something else I was thinking about: Since my swap to Safari 4, I've done a a few double-mouse-takes going for the refresh button, only to remember it's moved. I've also started to click on the Add Tab button, when I would seldom double click the tab bar before (unless the keyboard was off somewhere). Anyway, I realised this: Apple bringing items out of the menu, and not letting me remove them from my interface or move about them has actually decreased my efficiency rather dramatically, and, somewhat strangely, actually decreased my use of quicker keyboard shortcuts. I know that sounds odd, but it really is true for me. Anyone?
Well exactly, that's where I was coming from with my button bar ideas, though I don't know how that would fair either. It's not more efficient but it's far more intuitive to have visual elements, whether they be buttons or some HUD.
Haha, it's funny, I had the same reaction to Safari 4 as you, yet we have opposing behaviors.
With most web browsers, many non-power users (which I like to think I'm not, but I probably am) have no clue about tabbed browsing unless they randomly discover it in a menu or by surprise. Opera has had a New Tab button for a while now, but few use Opera. I give Google's Chrome much of the credit for making tabbed browsing very clear and obvious. Safari 4 took it a step further and I don't think it's a fluke. I would not be surprised to see the Finder, TextEdit, and other apps that benefit from tabbed browsing to gain the Safari 4 New Tab button.
In any case, for me at least, any more arbitrary changes with no clear benefits (such as replacing the menu bar) would have me pulling even more metaphorical hair out, doubtless the same for others, potentially outweighing any possible benefits for existing users. New users I've already covered.
So wait, do you rely more on searching through the Menu Bar or on keyboard commands (in most apps, Safari 4 aside)?
Interesting you haven't commented on accessibility. I suppose there really is no argument against the menu bar for anyone but yourself, or other fully-capable power users (incl. me I s'pose...
What about accessibility? Why couldn't a HUD or visual display for a system standard clipboard, for instance, be more intuitive than the Menu Bar alternative?
Also, I'd really like to hear your impressions on the Action menu in Finder windows.
... I think we're getting a little off-topic, and have kinda hijacked this thread. Needless to say, I think most interface changes we be in the form of a "new skin" rather than anything drastic with the menu bar, as people have already said, though what would Apple change? I want more transparent menus back, though my love-affair with the menu bar is already on record, anything more sheer will do me...
It wouldn't be there all the time, just when you needed it.
Agreed, though keyboard-based with mousing alternative like cmd-tab, yeah?
This suit is black pause NOT.
if no one ever uses the Services, it defeats the point of including said functions.
Agreed, there is a desperate need for this.
I want to reiterate... ramblings...
Fair.
Well exactly, that's where I was coming from... So wait...?
Yeah, not sure. Always use cmd-T, me and my girl have a stupid joke about Apple Tea even though there are no open apples now
Depends how much I use the app. Menus for less-used apps, then toolbar/shortcuts mostly, yeah.
I would not be surprised to see the Finder, TextEdit, and other apps...
Maybe. It breaks the document model a little though. Would be nice for Pages for me.
What about accessibility? ... Action menu in Finder windows.
Ah... it's to do with the nature of text. Chances are a text-alternative or labels would be necessary anyway for screen readers etc. Great to be able to type first letter have it jump, generally uniform unlike Windows menus will have many icons etc. next to items, easily translatable into other languages compared to say pictures (does this mean what I think it means, eg. emoji, these fellas
edit: Realised hate for action button not really congruent with want for pretty much the same thing on the bookmarks button in safari. I may just be irrational.
Agreed, though keyboard-based with mousing alternative like cmd-tab, yeah?
Yes. And I think Apple would have to do something to encourage the use of such a thing otherwise it might wind up like Dashboard: some know about it but many people don't. (Separately, I think it would make sense to move the Dashboard into the multitouch trackpad display that Dan also envisioned; probably one widget at a time and a way to pull down elements into the display for direct manipulation.)
The tab bar and button were actually real easy compared to that damn elusive refresh button. Though I've started using cmd-. now I have to hover.
Hover over what? The refresh button?
What's wrong with displaying progress, too?
You're talking about the removal of the progress bar in the address field, right? I miss it to some degree, but it was only ever an approximation. Maybe they're trying to find a non-Aqua way of displaying progress aside from the spinner.
Improved add bookmark behaviour might have been nice to go along with that permanent button as well, maybe like hold it down actions (tabs, folder, then full bookmark browser in sheet?) This could go on for a while.
Depends how much I use the app. Menus for less-used apps, then toolbar/shortcuts mostly, yeah.
Ok. As for the behaviors, you want those to appear when pressing the Add Bookmark button!? You already get a list of tabs when you've opened over 12 tabs and what's nice about Safari 4's tabs compared to Safari 3 and Chrome is that they resize when selected, making their titles readable.
Maybe. It breaks the document model a little though. Would be nice for Pages for me.
Agreed. I like Expose for that stuff and maybe I should change it so it only exposes the documents within the application, but for many new users, they end up minimizing things to the Dock in order to see what's open. Cycling through windows using command-` is no fun either. While tabs shouldn't be implemented for every app, document-based apps (and perhaps the Finder) should at least have the option IMO by way of the + button in the title bar of the window.
Ah... it's to do with the nature of text.
Hmm, the more I think about it, the more the Menu Bar seems like a necessary evil or at least something similar. That's why I asked your opinion on the Action menu. I see it as a nice alternative to scrapping all text menus from applications, which would be a mistake. But then again, maybe the HUD should replace the idea of an Action button/menu instead of replacing the Menu Bar.
Whew, I did sort of derail this thread, huh?
...move the Dashboard into the multitouch trackpad display
That'd be cool, but the more I think about it, the more I think that it's like moving the touch-sensitive area into the display: Ergonomically, it doesn't fit well with laptops. It would be OK for short bursts of efficient use, but not a constant thing, and not a necessary thing, just an option for someone who likes to keep an eye on the weather, or whatever, the equivalent of having desktop {as opposed to dashboard} widgets.
Hover over what? The refresh button?
Yeah, I was feeling a little guilty about derailing the thread, but it's really dead now anyway so there's no need to be brief
I miss it to some degree, but it was only ever an approximation.
True, but it was at least some indication. Now I find myself staring at the status bar trying to figure out if it's taking too long to connect or whatever, it's just a step backwards. At least do like firefox and have one in the status bar too, most people don't use it {the status bar} anyway, where's the harm?
Add Bookmark button!?
Yeah I said that weirdly. As with the back/forward buttons, holding down the add bookmark might show "Add Bookmark For These 5 Tabs" or "Add Bookmark Folder" etc. as well. Then, on the sheet, have a down arrow {like on printers or save/open} where you could do all the manipulation of the bookmarks page {Show All Bookmarks}. This is something I still miss from Windows is that the open/save dialogs were, in effect, Finder (well, Explorer) windows allowing all actions permissible in the shell like copy/paste, rename etc.
Agreed. I like Expose for that stuff and...
Yeah, I really would have thought Apple would be better at handling tabbed interfaces, the Window menu has some good stuff normally, and a right-click on the Docked app icon shows the same, exposé of course as well, spaces is nice etc. So what's with tabs? One list when you (essentially) have too many tabs open in one window? Each item on the {Window} menu {or on a right click of the app's icon} should be a submenu or something like that to let the user alternatively choose between the tabs on that page too. Or the "Application Windows" Exposé could show all tabs seperately, whilst the "All Windows" showed only windows (as you might expect). Something like this is quite needed, though there would have to be an API, and it's probably not going to work with Firefox or anything with non-native code/widgets and chrome. Terminal and Safari are different now too, it seems a common API has been scrapped for the time-being. Shame.
a necessary evil
For us, that's probably quite right.
...the Action menu... a nice alternative to scrapping all text menus
Yeah, I can see that, I would just never use it instead of right-click when you're most likely already hovering over the item you want to manipulate. Seems like old mac thinking
maybe the HUD should replace the idea of an Action button/menu
It'd be nice to get more out of get info/inspector windows, and some sort of preference to have one or the other or combine them somehow with two sections. At least the finder has different title bars. It can get just damn confusing in QuickTime, for example, and some apps only have inspector, some get info (iTunes
Whew, I did sort of derail this thread, huh?
Yeah, well, I guess we killed it together, people are using other threads for pointless speculation now anyways. At least we're discussing something somewhat useful.
edit: added stuff in {curly braces}.
That'd be cool, but the more I think about it, the more I think that it's like moving the touch-sensitive area into the display: Ergonomically, it doesn't fit well with laptops. It would be OK for short bursts of efficient use, but not a constant thing, and not a necessary thing, just an option for someone who likes to keep an eye on the weather, or whatever, the equivalent of having desktop {as opposed to dashboard} widgets.
How does it not fit well with Apple's MacBooks? They already have glass, MultiTouch trackpads. Mac OS X's gestures aren't "necessary" - you can scroll most windows with the arrow keys, for instance. But I and many others appreciate two-finger scrolling because it's more natural.
Which is more intuitive and natural, the iPod classic with its static click wheel, or the iPod touch with its gestures and touch display? Of course a trackpad display wouldn't be something you use constantly: that's what an iPhone/iPod touch is for. But for those instances where direct touch manipulation is preferable to indirect mousing—turning dials in a GarageBand widget, turning up/down the sound with the iTunes widget perhaps even while in another application, doodling and using burn effects on pictures in an iPhoto widget, placing pins and moving the path in Google Maps pulled down into the trackpad, or as you say, taking a glance at the weather—what other alternatives are there?
We already agree that simply slapping a touch screen on the main display like HP's horrendous TouchSmart PCs is impractical and uncomfortable. LIkewise, a super-sized iPhone or iPod touch-like tablet isn't ergonomic, nor would it be affordable. Replacing the MacBook's physical keyboard with a big touchscreen ain't happening. That leaves the trackpad or a tethered (wired or wireless) iPhone or iPod touch acting as an external touch controller. The latter option truly makes it optional, which would greatly impact developer interest.
Yeah, to make it go from the spinner to the stop {on hover} it sometimes takes a little bit to change or whatever, leading to hesitant clicks or too many, or whatever, then the page refreshes blah. Cmd-point/fullstop (.) works easier now for me, but that's more a fault {in the program} than an advantage of shortcuts imo.
I see. I swore in Safari 3 you only needed to hit Escape and it would pause loading, but that isn't the case with Safari 4.
True, but it was at least some indication. Now I find myself staring at the status bar trying to figure out if it's taking too long to connect or whatever, it's just a step backwards. At least do like firefox and have one in the status bar too, most people don't use it {the status bar} anyway, where's the harm?
Well if most people don't use the optional status bar, why bother including a load bar in there?
I remember going to some sites where it never stopped loading (*cough* Gmail *cough*), which was very distracting. I think Apple could show loading on the spinner itself by shading in the spinner as it loads. I'm 80% sure there was a way to turn on radial loading like that in Safari 3, similar to the hidden option to open all new windows in tabs. I'll try to find a link to radial loading...if it actually exists.
Yeah I said that weirdly. As with the back/forward buttons, holding down the add bookmark might show "Add Bookmark For These 5 Tabs" or "Add Bookmark Folder" etc. as well. Then, on the sheet, have a down arrow {like on printers or save/open} where you could do all the manipulation of the bookmarks page {Show All Bookmarks}. This is something I still miss from Windows is that the open/save dialogs were, in effect, Finder (well, Explorer) windows allowing all actions permissible in the shell like copy/paste, rename etc.
Ooh, agreed.
Yeah, I really would have thought Apple would be better at handling tabbed interfaces, the Window menu has some good stuff normally, and a right-click on the Docked app icon shows the same, exposé of course as well, spaces is nice etc. So what's with tabs? One list when you (essentially) have too many tabs open in one window? Each item on the {Window} menu {or on a right click of the app's icon} should be a submenu or something like that to let the user alternatively choose between the tabs on that page too. Or the "Application Windows" Exposé could show all tabs seperately, whilst the "All Windows" showed only windows (as you might expect). Something like this is quite needed, though there would have to be an API, and it's probably not going to work with Firefox or anything with non-native code/widgets and chrome. Terminal and Safari are different now too, it seems a common API has been scrapped for the time-being. Shame.
Some good suggestions, particularly the breaking apart of tabbed windows when using the app-specific Expose command. This could also be something the super duper multitouch trackpad display (or the equally amazing HUD, haha) could do. Look at Safari on the iPhone and how it handles multiple websites: scroll through via swiping gestures. The same thing could be done in the trackpad. They could also allow the History Cover Flow to be done in the trackpad as well. Separately, when in iTunes, using the iPhone's far more useful implementation of Cover Flow (i.e., tap album cover to view songs) combined with iTunes 8's more useful Group Artists setting+Grid View (which makes iTunes 8 a lot like iPhoto, but for music) and you've got something special (if you followed all that stuff in parenthesis). Scrolling through artists in the trackpad using Cover Flow would be sweet, perhaps with a A-Z UI line (which you noted earlier).
Yeah, I can see that, I would just never use it instead of right-click when you're most likely already hovering over the item you want to manipulate. Seems like old mac thinking
You got me there.
How does it not fit well with Apple's MacBooks?
Just in terms of posture, really, couldn't use it for any period of time. I would love it for levels in garageband, or (please!) a system-wide equaliser like in iTunes, yeah. Another example could be zoomed-in view of an image for editing. Fantastic potential. I've been wanting it since RDM suggested it. I can just understand why Apple could find it somewhat awkward, and I think it's been complicated by their studies into the low-friction glass trackpads and putting the button underneath in the last revision. I don't think they'd do it without a lot more obsessive thought than most people are comfortable with
... only needed to hit Escape ... you don't have to wait for the spinner
Yeah, that's certainly the case in Firefox, and I could have sworn it was in Safari before, too. I still use cmd-shift-[ and ] or cmd-{ and } if you like to change tabs, that still works, weirdly.
I normally don't wait for the spinner, but then safari will hang or something, best just to stay away from it
Well if most people don't use the optional status bar, why bother
um. Firefox do? I don't know. You're right there.
some sites where it never stopped loading
That certainly has happened before to me, I usually just refresh on automatic
radial loading...if it actually exists.
Yeah, it seems to, but removes any ability to have a stop/refresh button it seems? edit: I actually read it, apparently you just have to manually add it back as a stand-alone button.
macosxhints.com - View a pie-chart-style ... Safari 4 Beta
ctrl-click on Safari 4's title bar
I was sort of trying to provide a counter-example, in a way. It frustrates me that the add bookmark button is non-removable. As a somewhat necessary/permanent element (the bookmark/address/stop/progress/search/RSS/SnapBack control), that button should at least do a couple of things
scroll through via swiping gestures.
Do you not use a two-fingered sidewards scroll for that now? It frustrates me how badly it works in the iTS, and also doesn't on the apple website, but meh
Either scrolling through active tabs with cover flow or having them laid out in a grid like top sites could be really cool, the blanks in the final row would be fine. A shortcut of just the number keys (as opposed to cmd-number for bookmarks) could work well for well 9 tabs or so.
Exactly. No matter how much SJ's health improves he won't return to the stage. He may guest appear but it will never again be a solo act. It must be a huge weight of his, and everybody else's shoulders that the company has managed to move away from the 'one-man-show' thing. The prediction for years has been that the moment he steps away, Apple is finished. The jury is still out on that one of course, but without him on stage a lot of the pressure is off.
Personally, I care whether he gets well because he happens to be a 'fellow human' but I'm not waiting for him to 'come back' because unlike Apple over a decade ago, its a completely different beast today. Mac OS X can be easily upgraded, expanded and enhanced; most importantly, management is being developed organically within Apple with the best rising to the top based on talent - rather than the situation of Microsoft where the one with the loudest voice and the biggest ego rises to the top.
Maybe a unified theme would be nice, but apart from that, I am happy with how things are.
Just in terms of posture, really, couldn't use it for any period of time. I would love it for levels in garageband, or (please!) a system-wide equaliser like in iTunes, yeah. Another example could be zoomed-in view of an image for editing. Fantastic potential. I've been wanting it since RDM suggested it. I can just understand why Apple could find it somewhat awkward, and I think it's been complicated by their studies into the low-friction glass trackpads and putting the button underneath in the last revision. I don't think they'd do it without a lot more obsessive thought than most people are comfortable with
Yeah, I'm sure they want to get it right if they decide to do it. I'm not sure how bad it would be for posture. Perhaps they could angle either the physical trackpad display itself or angle how the trackpad displays the interface so it appears visually correct while looking at it at the usual viewing angle. This would allow you to manipulate things without craning your neck over the trackpad.
That certainly has happened before to me, I usually just refresh on automatic
Hopefully in not so distant future we will no longer have to refresh the page at all. Things will just appear dynamically, pushed from the server.
Yeah, it seems to, but removes any ability to have a stop/refresh button it seems? edit: I actually read it, apparently you just have to manually add it back as a stand-alone button.
macosxhints.com - View a pie-chart-style ... Safari 4 Beta
Whoa, you found it.
I was sort of trying to provide a counter-example, in a way. It frustrates me that the add bookmark button is non-removable. As a somewhat necessary/permanent element (the bookmark/address/stop/progress/search/RSS/SnapBack control), that button should at least do a couple of things
Yeah. Well, you know you can command-click on a Bookmarks Bar folder and it will open all of the bookmarks within said folder in separate tabs, right?
Do you not use a two-fingered sidewards scroll for that now?
Yes, but I wasn't suggesting to simply move iTunes existing Cover Flow into the trackpad display, I was saying give it the same behavior as the iPhone's Cover Flow. In other words, you could cycle through the albums then tap one with your finger to have it flip around (as they do on the iPhone and iPod touch) and show you the songs therein. This would be far more intuitive than navigating on the main display using a combination of two-finger horizontal scrolling and clicking on individual songs with the pointer in iTunes 8. Is that clearer?
In addition, it would be nice for Cover Flow on the Mac and iPhone/iPod touch to support Artist Grouping, which associates an artist with album art (similar to how iPhoto lets you set a picture in a given Event to one of the pictures therein). Currently this feature only works in Grid View in iTunes 8.
Either scrolling through active tabs with cover flow or having them laid out in a grid like top sites could be really cool, the blanks in the final row would be fine. A shortcut of just the number keys (as opposed to cmd-number for bookmarks) could work well for well 9 tabs or so.
Doh, forgot about Top Sites! Never mind about navigating bookmarks with Cover Flow (though that could work too, I guess).
Yeah, I'm sure they want to get it right if they decide to do it. I'm not sure how bad it would be for posture. Perhaps they could angle either the physical trackpad display itself or angle how the trackpad displays the interface so it appears visually correct while looking at it at the usual viewing angle. This would allow you to manipulate things without craning your neck over the trackpad.
It really has to offer both a touch screen AND pad or mouse.
Yes, but I wasn't suggesting to simply move iTunes existing Cover Flow into the trackpad display, I was saying give it the same behavior as the iPhone's Cover Flow. In other words, you could cycle through the albums then tap one with your finger to have it flip around (as they do on the iPhone and iPod touch) and show you the songs therein.
Do you find it awkward that to push photos off to the left (in coverflow) on the iPhone involves sweeping a finger to the left, but on the Mac trackpad involves 2 fingers sweeping to the right?