Sheesh, now you're really off the charts ridiculous: I am giving you actual facts, and you're giving me Deng Xiaoping's pronouncements from 1978!?
The guy's dead, you know..... died more than a decade ago.
That's the problem with you. You AREN"T giving facts. And these articles ARE factual. Perhaps if you read them, you would get some idea of what's going on, instead of having some romantic notion of what China is today.
This has little if ANY relevance to the topic and hand.
I come here hoping to see a decent, reasonable and mature response to the topic of what could Apple be building such a large server farm for. Instead we get Anantksundaram and Melgross at each other's throats about who has the best economic theory.
Please! Grow up would you?
Then don't read our posts. OK?
I didn't start this. I responded to another post, and then it went from there.
You're absolutely right. It's my fault: I should know that there's no point in starting an argument with, or contradicting melgross, since it will not end.
I'll stop.
(Of course, I am not making any promises about future threads! )
You can't make a statement like that without recognizing that at least half of it is your own stubbornness.
You're trivializing an extremely complex issue. The government is not pushing growth for growth's sake. China expects to have something like 75-80 million new workers entering the workforce in the next decade - that's more than half the entire employment of the US. They have to create jobs, otherwise the country could end up with a social time bomb.
Here are some facts that may interest you:
1) In the past decade, approximately 250 million people have been lifted out of extreme poverty in China (defined as living on less than $1 a day). That's twice the population of Japan and about 80% of the population of the US.
2) China is commonly acknowledged to be the locomotive of the economy of the East Asian region: the economies of countries like Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Japan will all go into a serious tailspin if China slowed down its growth.
3) Most economists would agree that the global recession would have been far worse - in fact, devastating - if China's economy had performed similarly to ours or the EU's. In fact, China has been a saving grace in the current meltdown (as they were in the 1997-98 Asia Crisis as well).
Heck, the world should be thanking China.... not the least, us, given that they financed our profligate borrowing and spending!
china sucks
china is not a free society . China still has slave camps Dude wake up and stop defending the hopeless cause . China is a brutal communist country .If you pray to the wrong god they shoot you .And mail a bill for one bullet to your wife.
In fact this internet discussion would be monitored by the chinese gov't .and if you live in china. You could go to jail just for speaking your mind like this. And all the yahoo;s and googles help china companies help china filter this kind of bad talk .
And there is no clean coal anything. zero, there is not ONE coal plant that is clean or even near it . And there is not one clean coal plant on this planet .. So you sound a little odd saying this .
And in china they burn the highest sulfur coal ever burned and also how many chinese workers die every in there coal mines ??? thousands die my buddy. thousands die . do not dare to defend china . you only show your silly nature.
you would be quiet if you knew the true way of life in china . you would feel a great sadness.
AND YOU AND MELGROSS HAVE HAD A FINE TALK HERE , YOU ARE ON TOPIC . I READ EVERY WORD .
KEEP GOING AND IGNORE THE BABIES HERE WHO TRY TO LIMIT YOUR MINDS
The financial industry is what caused the present screw-ups. Not just here, but everywhere.
More precisely, lack of oversight of the financial industry is what allowed them to cause the past, present and continuing screw-ups.
So far, the only ones being regulated to death are the little guys, like your local RIA, CFP or other financial advisor type. Meanwhile, Wall Street carries on as if nothing had happened.
The new oversight needs to be directed at the big boy level. Complete transparency for all tranches that get packaged as CDOs, CMOs, SIVs, etc.. As it stands now, most packagers of these products don't even know what they own. It's why in 2007 you kept hearing how "such and such firm now believes they have uncovered and written down all the remaining bad debt" items. No one really knew what was in the various tranches, let alone how bad it was going to be.
Any student of todays market has to now realize that the emperor has no clothes. And it's doubtful that he'll be stepping out with his new flashy wardrobe anytime soon.
This has little if ANY relevance to the topic and hand.
I come here hoping to see a decent, reasonable and mature response to the topic of what could Apple be building such a large server farm for. Instead we get Anantksundaram and Melrose at each other's throats about who has the best economic theory.
Please! Grow up would you?
It is on topic . It followed a talk about new jobs the server farm may bring to for S.C. and it morphed from there . There are dozens of quotes here for to respond too. That address directly the server farm . You are acting like the baby dude . It is the internet on a slow sunday .
Wonder why Apple wouldn't do this project closer to home in California?
Maybe it is the same reason why every other company is moving out of the state.
They better get rolling on this project before the federal government finds some way to tax them into the ground over some rediciolus thing like energy/carbon.
Such broad, sweeping generalizations. You've got to stop listening to Rush. The fat bastard is rotting your little Republican pea brain...
3) Most economists would agree that the global recession would have been far worse - in fact, devastating - if China's economy had performed similarly to ours or the EU's. In fact, China has been a saving grace in the current meltdown (as they were in the 1997-98 Asia Crisis as well).
Heck, the world should be thanking China.... not the least, us, given that they financed our profligate borrowing and spending!
The economic policies of opening up China is what is responsible for the U.S. DEFLATION we are seeing now.
It started happening with the flood of cheap Chinese goods. Then Treasury reduced the prime to stimulate the economy to keep it from going into deflation, caused a real estate bubble and inflation, (which was the goal), inflation is easier to control than deflation.
It was the failed socialist sub-prime housing attempt by Dem. Congress under Bush that made matters much much worse.
Real estate bubbles are a rich persons game of speculation, it's not designed for those who can't afford the loss. (I've been through 2 now, so I know)
After every real estate bubble, there is a post real estate bubble recession. That's a fact of history.
However in this one, because so many middle and poor income people were told they could have a loan when ordinarily they wouldn't qualify.
That was Bill Clintons revisions to the Community Reinvestment Act forcing banks to accept sub-prime mortgages. (in fact the first Mortgage Backed Security appeared from Bear Sterns in the year after Clinton made those law changes)
The Dem Congress (under Bush) was pushing HUD to push the GSE's: Freddie and Fannie into over-leveraging millions of sub-prime loans. The Dems wanted to be seen as the champions for home ownership, but failed to take a persons credit into account.
Naturally if banks couldn't dump their sub-primes, they wouldn't take them. But Uncle Sam was buying them and dumping them as MBS with BBB ratings. Too many sub-prime mortgages resulted in not enough investors for the BBB's, so they mixed BBB with AAA called them CDO's and gave them AAA ratings.
The world was bilked.
A corrupt capitalism response to irresponsible socialist actions.
Treasury finally had to take control of Freddie and Fannie and that caused the beginning of the end. Deflation came anyway because of the sub-prime housing meltdown. It could have been avoided with responsible lending practices.
Now we head for the Great Depression 2, which would not have been so bad (perhaps a mild post real estate bubble recession) if it wasn't for the sub-prime meltdown.
Again, if the real estate bubble would have remained in the rich persons speculative arena, there would have been little or no post real estate bubble recession.
Getting back to China, they have too many people working too cheap, thus causing the deflation in the US in the first place.
We have effectively given away our chief economy status to them. We will now be dependent upon their economy and they really don't need anything we have.
China caused the oil bubble where our gas was over $4 a gallon, they stockpiled up all the worlds oil pre-worlds fair. Then the day of the fair, stopped cold. Oil dropped like a stone. Sure speculators jumped on the bandwagon for the ride, but wasn't the chief cause.
China was exerting it's new world power with the fair.
In fact it even dropped it's prime lending to the oddball rate 6.66%, milking the effect over that.
China is evil and is practicing economic warfare on Western Nations economies.
In fact one chief economist for another nation in Asia stated "The Chinese don't give nothing back, they just take".
China wasn't going to allow it's economy to be manipulated by the US like the Japanese did when they did what the US asked them to bring their currency value up to the level of the US, resulted in their real estate bubble and ten year recession.
So you see what is going on here. Spreading our debt around.
U.S. of A is presently in danger of losing it's AAA credit rating, the stock market is dying because of the news. We only have coal and bad ass weapons as our chief resource to sell.
Iraq and Afghanistan better be paying plenty, that's all I got to say.
Iraq in oil and Afghanistan in opium to sell to the Chinese.
I've been reading this post for years and have loved your quick look ups in your thesaurus to make you sound more intelligent than you clearly are.
As I said in an earlier posting of this thread, you clearly come across as someone with nothing more than a Google Search of knowledge with your comments and feedback.
I believe my quote was "one of the most non tech aware persons in this room", but I'm sure as usual, you will look it up to point out my error of my own posting.
Yet once again, another useless post to distract from a very good conversation.
I'm sorry, but I have read this exchange or the last 2 pages and I can only state I find it IRONIC that you respond in the same way you have accused others of maligning yourself.
You were asked a simple question:
"What would you do?"
Which when pressed to answer, you have only responded by spinning the issue into how you have somehow been personally attacked and how you have expressed your OPINION on a rumor site.
Your opinion has the tell tale signs of a troll. You have ceased to add anything productive to the conversation and ultimately, if you were as intelligent and you have stated and had been so slighted as you supposedly had been, the correct action would have been to bow out of said conversation and let the "children" continue to play at being adults.
The inconstancy I see with that outlook is that you yourself are composing yourself in the childish mannerisms you are implying with you "high brow" (laughable in and of themselves) statements.
Honestly, I don't know why I am even adding to this as your screen name: Sea Hawks Fan, make me believe you have been setting up for this behavior in the last couple of days.
Make it constructive or stay out of it. Even if it is off topic.
And don't ever malign the anonymity you yourself are utilizing.
Actions such as that make you as much a hypocrite as nearly anyone else mentioned in this thread alone and does much in maligning your own credibility.
On a level playing field America can compete in most cases. but if another country. like .. o well i dunno lets call this country china . lets say china builds a factory city in the south. and takes workers from the Harbin area in the north . and these workers live in a factory dorm . the Harbin workers have a 70 to 90 hour work week. they have no worker rights at all like in America . They may get meat once a day,maybe . They may want to pray that someday they will have a better life but it is so poor up north that they must work here, or their family may starve. Some studies show that upwards of 90 percent of the women who travel from poor area's to large cities have been raped . Either on the way there or in place where they work .
I could go on and on but you get the picture . This factory makes lead painted toys. Mattel out sourced it dolls to this factory. After Mattel dropped them the 700 workers were stranded .With no pay and no money to go home . At least one hundred of these women lived for a while under a major highway, sadly some got raped there too.
This is out sourcing dude .
Nice huh .
p. s. the american toy factories closed.They could not compete with slave labour and no human worker rights at all.
Spot on!
This is the reality ignored when everyone spouts facts looked up in google or otherwise.
Any scenario can be made to look great and declare what greatness is being done for their population when the major malfeasance is ignored.
OK, this is too tough to resist! I will take this on, point-by-point.
Please check out what happened with the Oroville Dam and the California earthquake in 1975. (Of course, there are some differing points of view, just as there are with Three Gorges.)
As to the dams in US being built before problems being known, please provide a credible cite.
You have to look at the cumulative coal use impact, that has happened over a whole century in the case of the US (since GHGs, for instance, stay in the atmosphere for centuries). This compares to perhaps a couple of decades for China. It will be a looooong time before China emits more than the US cumulatively.
It's about the incremental investments: At least, China is going ahead with clean coal; unfortunately, it's still at the level of cheap talk in the US. When the US can match China in terms of its incremental clean-energy investments, let's talk.
China had the option, if they had chosen to pursue it, of asking their new economic partners of their experiences in energy production, thus learning from our mistakes rather than moving forward, willy nilly, with this growth and reckless manner in an attempt to overtake the United States and the Western World economically.
It's ironic that a country that overthrew it's emperor in a workers revolution became no better, if not worse then the regime they deposed.
But that's Animal Farm. Many should re-read Orwell sometime.....
The point being that at present moment they are the highest, even if utilizing per-capita, polluters in the world at this time, coupled with the worst human rights abusers, per-capita, at this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
That is an untenably sweeping, and silly statement. And you know it. I suppose all those Nobel prizes handed out annually must be nonsense.
Gore was given a Nobel Peace price for stating the obvious. I really don't see how this justifies the fact economists know nothing.
It should be remembered the economic crisis Argentina just rose from, one strikingly similar to our current crisis, was fostered by the CIA and the brainchild of some Chicago economists working in theory.
I again, do not see where this fortifies this line of defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
So how did we get to where we are today? As an autarkic economy? No way. Our being open to trade, labor via immigration (legal), capital (via the most open capital markets), the best ideas from anywhere in the world (e.g., the Einsteins and the von Brauns) -- i.e., being in open economy -- is how we become economically great.
See previous line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Yeah, this point will resonate if/when the average American pollutes/emits as much as an average Chinese or Indian person. For instance, do you know that the average American emits six times as much GHGs as an average Chinese person, and 20 times as much as an average Indian? What gives you the right to say that Chinese can't, per person, emit as much GHGs as we do?
"There may not be a later?" OK. If you feel strongly (and are truly worried about) about that, would you be willing to take a few thousand dollars out of your paycheck and hand it over to a Chinese person so that they don't have to produce all that extra gunk that has you worried?
O/w, it is just the typical (and tired) arrogance and shallowness of "do as we say, not as we do."
When the US is ready and willing to internalize the cost of all the externalities it imposes, let's talk again. Perhaps we could start with the GHG footprint.....
Already covered in previous responses to the same post.
Would it be fair we should expect hundreds of millions to stay dirt-poor and not catch up? I sure don't think so either.
So by this logic we should also not be pursuing the pirates in Somalia, or even fighting back, correct?
To gain status via mistreatment of those "below" you and theft, was still amoral and illegal, as far as I can recall.
It is not the masses catching up, but those in privileged positions able to know the families of those that took power and have suddenly seen the "virtues" of capitalism.
That response holds no credibility in ANYONES view.
I agree this is a problem, i.e., the playing field is not necessarily level -- don't get me wrong.
My simple, larger point is: why do you think Mattel is in a relentless pursuit to sell cheaper toys? Or Dell, cheaper PCs? Or Target, cheaper toasters?
Look in the mirror.
I'm sorry, but that is out and out incorrect.
Prices only began going down now, and that is only due to the present "economic down turn"
*cough* *cough* DEPRESSION *cough* *cough*
Previous to that prices had been as high as they had ever been, if not the highest, and everyone who could afford to was buying, if not with cash, at least on credit.
The reason outsourcing was done was an attempt to gain the same production and supposed quality while charging the same if not higher prices to line the pockets of the owners, shareholders, and boards of directors whom later bankrupted said companies via mismanagement.
where has everyone been for the last ten to fifteen years?
so ... we could in effect walk away from all this debt
let the commies figure that one out
Actually.......
Not really. It is made up of a network of international private banks and banking families whom we gave over the ability to manufacture funds decades ago.
It has been holding us hostage, financially, since 1912, if not earlier, and it could be argued they are the architects of this current financial down turn, though that is debatable.
Not really. It is made up of a network of international private banks and banking families whom we gave over the ability to manufacture funds decades ago.
It has been holding us hostage, financially, since 1912, if not earlier, and it could be argued they are the architects of this current financial down turn, though that is debatable.
Comments
Sheesh, now you're really off the charts ridiculous: I am giving you actual facts, and you're giving me Deng Xiaoping's pronouncements from 1978!?
The guy's dead, you know..... died more than a decade ago.
That's the problem with you. You AREN"T giving facts. And these articles ARE factual. Perhaps if you read them, you would get some idea of what's going on, instead of having some romantic notion of what China is today.
Oh would you both SHUT UP???
This has little if ANY relevance to the topic and hand.
I come here hoping to see a decent, reasonable and mature response to the topic of what could Apple be building such a large server farm for. Instead we get Anantksundaram and Melgross at each other's throats about who has the best economic theory.
Please! Grow up would you?
Then don't read our posts. OK?
I didn't start this. I responded to another post, and then it went from there.
You're absolutely right. It's my fault: I should know that there's no point in starting an argument with, or contradicting melgross, since it will not end.
I'll stop.
(Of course, I am not making any promises about future threads!
You can't make a statement like that without recognizing that at least half of it is your own stubbornness.
You're trivializing an extremely complex issue. The government is not pushing growth for growth's sake. China expects to have something like 75-80 million new workers entering the workforce in the next decade - that's more than half the entire employment of the US. They have to create jobs, otherwise the country could end up with a social time bomb.
Here are some facts that may interest you:
1) In the past decade, approximately 250 million people have been lifted out of extreme poverty in China (defined as living on less than $1 a day). That's twice the population of Japan and about 80% of the population of the US.
2) China is commonly acknowledged to be the locomotive of the economy of the East Asian region: the economies of countries like Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Japan will all go into a serious tailspin if China slowed down its growth.
3) Most economists would agree that the global recession would have been far worse - in fact, devastating - if China's economy had performed similarly to ours or the EU's. In fact, China has been a saving grace in the current meltdown (as they were in the 1997-98 Asia Crisis as well).
Heck, the world should be thanking China.... not the least, us, given that they financed our profligate borrowing and spending!
china sucks
china is not a free society . China still has slave camps Dude wake up and stop defending the hopeless cause . China is a brutal communist country .If you pray to the wrong god they shoot you .And mail a bill for one bullet to your wife.
In fact this internet discussion would be monitored by the chinese gov't .and if you live in china. You could go to jail just for speaking your mind like this. And all the yahoo;s and googles help china companies help china filter this kind of bad talk .
And there is no clean coal anything. zero, there is not ONE coal plant that is clean or even near it . And there is not one clean coal plant on this planet .. So you sound a little odd saying this .
And in china they burn the highest sulfur coal ever burned and also how many chinese workers die every in there coal mines ??? thousands die my buddy. thousands die . do not dare to defend china . you only show your silly nature.
you would be quiet if you knew the true way of life in china . you would feel a great sadness.
AND YOU AND MELGROSS HAVE HAD A FINE TALK HERE , YOU ARE ON TOPIC . I READ EVERY WORD .
KEEP GOING AND IGNORE THE BABIES HERE WHO TRY TO LIMIT YOUR MINDS
peace
9
The financial industry is what caused the present screw-ups. Not just here, but everywhere.
More precisely, lack of oversight of the financial industry is what allowed them to cause the past, present and continuing screw-ups.
So far, the only ones being regulated to death are the little guys, like your local RIA, CFP or other financial advisor type. Meanwhile, Wall Street carries on as if nothing had happened.
The new oversight needs to be directed at the big boy level. Complete transparency for all tranches that get packaged as CDOs, CMOs, SIVs, etc.. As it stands now, most packagers of these products don't even know what they own. It's why in 2007 you kept hearing how "such and such firm now believes they have uncovered and written down all the remaining bad debt" items. No one really knew what was in the various tranches, let alone how bad it was going to be.
Any student of todays market has to now realize that the emperor has no clothes. And it's doubtful that he'll be stepping out with his new flashy wardrobe anytime soon.
Oh would you both SHUT UP???
This has little if ANY relevance to the topic and hand.
I come here hoping to see a decent, reasonable and mature response to the topic of what could Apple be building such a large server farm for. Instead we get Anantksundaram and Melrose at each other's throats about who has the best economic theory.
Please! Grow up would you?
It is on topic . It followed a talk about new jobs the server farm may bring to for S.C. and it morphed from there . There are dozens of quotes here for to respond too. That address directly the server farm . You are acting like the baby dude . It is the internet on a slow sunday .
peace
9
Point of order. It's not a cliche, it's an actual quote from Walt Kelly you are torturing.
Walt Kelly was into torture?
Oh yeah, trying to follow Pogo as kid in the Sunday paper was a kind of torture, now that I think of it.
Wonder why Apple wouldn't do this project closer to home in California?
Maybe it is the same reason why every other company is moving out of the state.
They better get rolling on this project before the federal government finds some way to tax them into the ground over some rediciolus thing like energy/carbon.
Such broad, sweeping generalizations. You've got to stop listening to Rush. The fat bastard is rotting your little Republican pea brain...
3) Most economists would agree that the global recession would have been far worse - in fact, devastating - if China's economy had performed similarly to ours or the EU's. In fact, China has been a saving grace in the current meltdown (as they were in the 1997-98 Asia Crisis as well).
Heck, the world should be thanking China.... not the least, us, given that they financed our profligate borrowing and spending!
The economic policies of opening up China is what is responsible for the U.S. DEFLATION we are seeing now.
It started happening with the flood of cheap Chinese goods. Then Treasury reduced the prime to stimulate the economy to keep it from going into deflation, caused a real estate bubble and inflation, (which was the goal), inflation is easier to control than deflation.
It was the failed socialist sub-prime housing attempt by Dem. Congress under Bush that made matters much much worse.
Real estate bubbles are a rich persons game of speculation, it's not designed for those who can't afford the loss. (I've been through 2 now, so I know)
After every real estate bubble, there is a post real estate bubble recession. That's a fact of history.
However in this one, because so many middle and poor income people were told they could have a loan when ordinarily they wouldn't qualify.
That was Bill Clintons revisions to the Community Reinvestment Act forcing banks to accept sub-prime mortgages. (in fact the first Mortgage Backed Security appeared from Bear Sterns in the year after Clinton made those law changes)
The Dem Congress (under Bush) was pushing HUD to push the GSE's: Freddie and Fannie into over-leveraging millions of sub-prime loans. The Dems wanted to be seen as the champions for home ownership, but failed to take a persons credit into account.
Naturally if banks couldn't dump their sub-primes, they wouldn't take them. But Uncle Sam was buying them and dumping them as MBS with BBB ratings. Too many sub-prime mortgages resulted in not enough investors for the BBB's, so they mixed BBB with AAA called them CDO's and gave them AAA ratings.
The world was bilked.
A corrupt capitalism response to irresponsible socialist actions.
Treasury finally had to take control of Freddie and Fannie and that caused the beginning of the end. Deflation came anyway because of the sub-prime housing meltdown. It could have been avoided with responsible lending practices.
Now we head for the Great Depression 2, which would not have been so bad (perhaps a mild post real estate bubble recession) if it wasn't for the sub-prime meltdown.
Again, if the real estate bubble would have remained in the rich persons speculative arena, there would have been little or no post real estate bubble recession.
Getting back to China, they have too many people working too cheap, thus causing the deflation in the US in the first place.
We have effectively given away our chief economy status to them. We will now be dependent upon their economy and they really don't need anything we have.
China caused the oil bubble where our gas was over $4 a gallon, they stockpiled up all the worlds oil pre-worlds fair. Then the day of the fair, stopped cold. Oil dropped like a stone. Sure speculators jumped on the bandwagon for the ride, but wasn't the chief cause.
China was exerting it's new world power with the fair.
In fact it even dropped it's prime lending to the oddball rate 6.66%, milking the effect over that.
China is evil and is practicing economic warfare on Western Nations economies.
In fact one chief economist for another nation in Asia stated "The Chinese don't give nothing back, they just take".
China wasn't going to allow it's economy to be manipulated by the US like the Japanese did when they did what the US asked them to bring their currency value up to the level of the US, resulted in their real estate bubble and ten year recession.
So you see what is going on here. Spreading our debt around.
U.S. of A is presently in danger of losing it's AAA credit rating, the stock market is dying because of the news. We only have coal and bad ass weapons as our chief resource to sell.
Iraq and Afghanistan better be paying plenty, that's all I got to say.
Iraq in oil and Afghanistan in opium to sell to the Chinese.
I've been reading this post for years and have loved your quick look ups in your thesaurus to make you sound more intelligent than you clearly are.
As I said in an earlier posting of this thread, you clearly come across as someone with nothing more than a Google Search of knowledge with your comments and feedback.
I believe my quote was "one of the most non tech aware persons in this room", but I'm sure as usual, you will look it up to point out my error of my own posting.
Yet once again, another useless post to distract from a very good conversation.
I'm sorry, but I have read this exchange or the last 2 pages and I can only state I find it IRONIC that you respond in the same way you have accused others of maligning yourself.
You were asked a simple question:
"What would you do?"
Which when pressed to answer, you have only responded by spinning the issue into how you have somehow been personally attacked and how you have expressed your OPINION on a rumor site.
Your opinion has the tell tale signs of a troll. You have ceased to add anything productive to the conversation and ultimately, if you were as intelligent and you have stated and had been so slighted as you supposedly had been, the correct action would have been to bow out of said conversation and let the "children" continue to play at being adults.
The inconstancy I see with that outlook is that you yourself are composing yourself in the childish mannerisms you are implying with you "high brow" (laughable in and of themselves) statements.
Honestly, I don't know why I am even adding to this as your screen name: Sea Hawks Fan, make me believe you have been setting up for this behavior in the last couple of days.
Make it constructive or stay out of it. Even if it is off topic.
And don't ever malign the anonymity you yourself are utilizing.
Actions such as that make you as much a hypocrite as nearly anyone else mentioned in this thread alone and does much in maligning your own credibility.
On a level playing field America can compete in most cases. but if another country. like .. o well i dunno lets call this country china . lets say china builds a factory city in the south. and takes workers from the Harbin area in the north . and these workers live in a factory dorm . the Harbin workers have a 70 to 90 hour work week. they have no worker rights at all like in America . They may get meat once a day,maybe . They may want to pray that someday they will have a better life but it is so poor up north that they must work here, or their family may starve. Some studies show that upwards of 90 percent of the women who travel from poor area's to large cities have been raped . Either on the way there or in place where they work .
I could go on and on but you get the picture . This factory makes lead painted toys. Mattel out sourced it dolls to this factory. After Mattel dropped them the 700 workers were stranded .With no pay and no money to go home . At least one hundred of these women lived for a while under a major highway, sadly some got raped there too.
This is out sourcing dude .
Nice huh .
p. s. the american toy factories closed.They could not compete with slave labour and no human worker rights at all.
Spot on!
This is the reality ignored when everyone spouts facts looked up in google or otherwise.
Any scenario can be made to look great and declare what greatness is being done for their population when the major malfeasance is ignored.
OK, this is too tough to resist!
Please check out what happened with the Oroville Dam and the California earthquake in 1975. (Of course, there are some differing points of view, just as there are with Three Gorges.)
As to the dams in US being built before problems being known, please provide a credible cite.
You have to look at the cumulative coal use impact, that has happened over a whole century in the case of the US (since GHGs, for instance, stay in the atmosphere for centuries). This compares to perhaps a couple of decades for China. It will be a looooong time before China emits more than the US cumulatively.
It's about the incremental investments: At least, China is going ahead with clean coal; unfortunately, it's still at the level of cheap talk in the US. When the US can match China in terms of its incremental clean-energy investments, let's talk.
China had the option, if they had chosen to pursue it, of asking their new economic partners of their experiences in energy production, thus learning from our mistakes rather than moving forward, willy nilly, with this growth and reckless manner in an attempt to overtake the United States and the Western World economically.
It's ironic that a country that overthrew it's emperor in a workers revolution became no better, if not worse then the regime they deposed.
But that's Animal Farm. Many should re-read Orwell sometime.....
The point being that at present moment they are the highest, even if utilizing per-capita, polluters in the world at this time, coupled with the worst human rights abusers, per-capita, at this time.
That is an untenably sweeping, and silly statement. And you know it. I suppose all those Nobel prizes handed out annually must be nonsense.
Gore was given a Nobel Peace price for stating the obvious. I really don't see how this justifies the fact economists know nothing.
It should be remembered the economic crisis Argentina just rose from, one strikingly similar to our current crisis, was fostered by the CIA and the brainchild of some Chicago economists working in theory.
I again, do not see where this fortifies this line of defense.
So how did we get to where we are today? As an autarkic economy? No way. Our being open to trade, labor via immigration (legal), capital (via the most open capital markets), the best ideas from anywhere in the world (e.g., the Einsteins and the von Brauns) -- i.e., being in open economy -- is how we become economically great.
See previous line.
Yeah, this point will resonate if/when the average American pollutes/emits as much as an average Chinese or Indian person. For instance, do you know that the average American emits six times as much GHGs as an average Chinese person, and 20 times as much as an average Indian? What gives you the right to say that Chinese can't, per person, emit as much GHGs as we do?
"There may not be a later?" OK. If you feel strongly (and are truly worried about) about that, would you be willing to take a few thousand dollars out of your paycheck and hand it over to a Chinese person so that they don't have to produce all that extra gunk that has you worried?
O/w, it is just the typical (and tired) arrogance and shallowness of "do as we say, not as we do."
When the US is ready and willing to internalize the cost of all the externalities it imposes, let's talk again. Perhaps we could start with the GHG footprint.....
Already covered in previous responses to the same post.
Would it be fair we should expect hundreds of millions to stay dirt-poor and not catch up? I sure don't think so either.
So by this logic we should also not be pursuing the pirates in Somalia, or even fighting back, correct?
To gain status via mistreatment of those "below" you and theft, was still amoral and illegal, as far as I can recall.
It is not the masses catching up, but those in privileged positions able to know the families of those that took power and have suddenly seen the "virtues" of capitalism.
That response holds no credibility in ANYONES view.
I agree this is a problem, i.e., the playing field is not necessarily level -- don't get me wrong.
My simple, larger point is: why do you think Mattel is in a relentless pursuit to sell cheaper toys? Or Dell, cheaper PCs? Or Target, cheaper toasters?
Look in the mirror.
I'm sorry, but that is out and out incorrect.
Prices only began going down now, and that is only due to the present "economic down turn"
*cough* *cough* DEPRESSION *cough* *cough*
Previous to that prices had been as high as they had ever been, if not the highest, and everyone who could afford to was buying, if not with cash, at least on credit.
The reason outsourcing was done was an attempt to gain the same production and supposed quality while charging the same if not higher prices to line the pockets of the owners, shareholders, and boards of directors whom later bankrupted said companies via mismanagement.
where has everyone been for the last ten to fifteen years?
so ... we could in effect walk away from all this debt
let the commies figure that one out
Actually.......
Not really. It is made up of a network of international private banks and banking families whom we gave over the ability to manufacture funds decades ago.
You may wish to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJqM2tFOxLQ
It has been holding us hostage, financially, since 1912, if not earlier, and it could be argued they are the architects of this current financial down turn, though that is debatable.
Actually.......
Not really. It is made up of a network of international private banks and banking families whom we gave over the ability to manufacture funds decades ago.
You may wish to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJqM2tFOxLQ
It has been holding us hostage, financially, since 1912, if not earlier, and it could be argued they are the architects of this current financial down turn, though that is debatable.
I was making a joke .
Your link will give me nightmares. wow
Thank you for the link.
peace
9
Spot on!
This is the reality ignored when everyone spouts facts looked up in google or otherwise.
Any scenario can be made to look great and declare what greatness is being done for their population when the major malfeasance is ignored.
thank you .
i find it odd how all the terrible abuses that china has and is doing is all of a sudden being ignored .
china is controlled by 5 or six fiefdoms . all who are pitted against each other .
i think that no one is really in charge in china , a great ruddless ship.
apple should bring production home to the usa
peace
9
I'm new to this site, but I've noticed that threads often go way off topic and stay there. Is this true or just my imagination?
It?s true.
By the way, this is now post number 2 on the new subthread you started about posts getting getting off topic.