Final Cut Studio 3.0, Final Cut Server update in Apple's pipeline

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 36
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Having a smaller "test group" of professionals that know intimately the product lineage.



    And I'm saying the end result sure doesn't look like that "test group" is actual audio professionals making a living creating music and audio.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    If I want to get a good idea about the effectiveness of my beta I want people who really know the current shipping app. The end users at large often "think" they know what they want but unless they have the depth of knowledge of a given app they could be asking for features that already exist.



    Maybe. But there are plenty of examples of end users who actually DO know what they want, DO have the depth of knowledge of a given app, and are NOT asking for features that already exist.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I don't know..Professional get their job done everyday with Logic and Final Cut Pro. Sure there are glitches but overcoming obstacles and delivering is what the truly talented do.



    Of course a pro can make do with inferior software. But just because an app "works" doesn't mean it's good enough or that it is competitive with the alternatives.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I think the difference between whining and constructive criticism is again knowledgability. It's like the quote "those who say it cannot be done are interrupted by those actually doing it" Pro apps are a lot like that.



    Thanks for the clarification, in my case I can document the specific circumstances when the app fails to work properly, and I know plenty of other extremely knowledgeable Logic users with similar, well documented constructive criticisms. "those who say it cannot be done are interrupted by those actually doing it" only applies when you actually CAN do that particular thing - and in Logic, there are many things that can't be done. Or at least without spending exponentially more time than it takes in other apps.



    Specific example - in PT, you can apply beat detective to chop up a rhythm audio track, then apply a swing feel to it. No way to do it automatically in Logic, you'd have to edit each hit by hand and move each by hand. Sure, I guess you can get the same result in both but you're talking about seconds to do it versus hours.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I haven't started using Logic Pro which is why I'm always looking for those in the know. I think STP has many issues with stability and thus have avoided it. The bar has certainly been raised with PT8 and Cubase5 though I expect this summer will bring Logic Studio 1.5 in addition to FCS3 and Aperture 3. I'm willing to cut Apple some slack here. They've had some heavy transitions recently but it's time to deliver the type of apps we expect. I think they're going to do that.



    The fact that you don't use Logic explains a lot about your attitude, if you are going to defend the app I'd urge you to actually try using it first.



    I certainly hope that the next Logic version is competitive with the latest from PT and Cubase, although it gets harder and harder to cut Apple slack every time they have a major release of the software that still lacks things that have been available elsewhere for years, and still has serious bugs that have been around for years without getting fixed. And the excuse of "transitions" has been going on for years, with each major release the apologists insist that not much visibly happened because too much needed work "under the hood" (if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone insist that the latest version was a major rewrite, and now that that is done, the NEXT version will be a huge step forward...). I hope my low expectations are wrong, but Apple hasn't given me any reason to expect otherwise.



    If you actually look at what Logic users are asking for instead of making assumptions about "whining", and actually look at the app itself, it will become obvious that there are blatant shortcomings that are virtually universally agreed on by users. I dare say that if you looked at specific issues with the app instead of just assuming generalities, you'd have a hard time disagreeing with many of the the constructive criticisms.
  • Reply 22 of 36
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wilco View Post


    So, anyone who expects their pro apps to work like "pro apps" is a whiner, or untalented?



    How long are you going to keep pimping your "blog", when you haven't updated it in two years?







    Holy sh&& people actually click on that link? Well I guess I better slap something up. Actually i've already registered a domain name will be setting up a Wordpress site most likely. Blogger is just too creaky for me ..though you can't beat the price



    No...one who expects their Pro apps to work isn't a whiner or untalented but it's how you approach the subject that determines just how much you really know. You can easily separate the contenders from the pretenders on gearslutz.com because the ones doing work everyday know the apps they're discussing so if they have a question you can bet it's a difficult or rather esoteric one.



    A rant shouldn't be followed up by multiple people having to "retrain" the ranter because they didn't RTFM.
  • Reply 23 of 36
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    No...one who expects their Pro apps to work isn't a whiner or untalented but it's how you approach the subject that determines just how much you really know. You can easily separate the contenders from the pretenders on gearslutz.com because the ones doing work everyday know the apps they're discussing so if they have a question you can bet it's a difficult or rather esoteric one.



    A rant shouldn't be followed up by multiple people having to "retrain" the ranter because they didn't RTFM.



    Sounds like your comments are more about gearslutz.com than they are about Logic.
  • Reply 24 of 36
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post




    The fact that you don't use Logic explains a lot about your attitude, if you are going to defend the app I'd urge you to actually try using it first.



    I certainly hope that the next Logic version is competitive with the latest from PT and Cubase, although it gets harder and harder to cut Apple slack every time they have a major release of the software that still lacks things that have been available elsewhere for years, and still has serious bugs that have been around for years without getting fixed. And the excuse of "transitions" has been going on for years, with each major release the apologists insist that not much visibly happened because too much needed work "under the hood" (if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone insist that the latest version was a major rewrite, and now that that is done, the NEXT version will be a huge step forward...). I hope my low expectations are wrong, but Apple hasn't given me any reason to expect otherwise.



    If you actually look at what Logic users are asking for instead of making assumptions about "whining", and actually look at the app itself, it will become obvious that there are blatant shortcomings that are virtually universally agreed on by users. I dare say that if you looked at specific issues with the app instead of just assuming generalities, you'd have a hard time disagreeing with many of the the constructive criticisms.





    Yes but i'm also in a unique position where I'm fact finding a bit and reading erroneous information from users who will not RTFM isn't beneficial to me or Apple. Yes I've heard "I want Beat Detective" ad naseaum or "I want time stretching/pitch tools that don't suck" these things become evidently clear though there's a lot of superfluous ranting that is quelled quickly by the more knowledgable.



    I tend to be an optimist though and grow weary with the



    "Is Logic dead?" posts that crop up when paranoid user haven't heard anything in 6 months.



    Whether or not we want to give Apple credit or a pass for transition the reality is they have had to make the transition.



    When they purchased Key Grip from Macromedia it wasn't even a Quicktime app. Apple had to build it around QT and then with OS X moving to Core Architecture suddenly an app being centered around QT wasn't enough. It now had to support Core Audio, Video, Image and more.



    You can't just "rip and replace" and hope to keep legacy support. If Apple lays an egg with the Pro app updates I promise you that I'll publically and virtually eviscerate them
  • Reply 25 of 36
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    Sounds like your comments are more about gearslutz.com than they are about Logic.



    ditto for



    LogicProHelp

    BigBlueLounge-MacOSXAudio

    Sonikmatter and any other forum i've read.



    It's more human nature. Final Cut Studio, Logic Studio and Aperture are all deep programs that will take time to master. When you're on these forums you're chatting with the rank and file newbiew (me) all the way up to guys like Jay Asher or Orren Merton who have multiple books published on the subject.



    I've committed myself to spend more time learning the deeper functions of the apps and not relying on plugins to save the day. Sure there will be bugs but being somethat helpful versus whiny is balancing your rant with constructive advice.
  • Reply 26 of 36
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    There will always be newbies who don't RTFM and post erroneous stuff. But that doesn't mean all complaints about Logic fall into that category, there are plenty of legitimate issues that even the most expert user will acknowledge.



    Did you ever stop to think that the reason you hear "I want Beat Detective" ad naseaum is because it is a tangible aspect in which Logic lags other apps? And has for years.



    Are you aware of what BD does? And what specifically is required to do the same thing in Logic? With those two pieces of info, the request for it in Logic seems like basic common sense.



    For the record, it has been over a year since the last Logic update (bugfix) much less the last major one. And no, I don't think that means the app is dead, but it certainly sends the message to users that Apple doesn't care enough to even fix blatant bugs in basic functionality.



    And Apple bought KeyGrip in 1998. They bought Logic in 2002. Seven to Eleven years isn't enough to take external code and make it their own? (don't forget, the hurdles of the OSX and intel transitions had to be made by all competing software as well)
  • Reply 27 of 36
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Actually i've already registered a domain name will be setting up a Wordpress site most likely. Blogger is just too creaky for me ..though you can't beat the price



    That's pretty amusing coming in the middle of a lecture on "The Poor Workman Blames His Tools".
  • Reply 28 of 36
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    And Apple bought KeyGrip in 1998. They bought Logic in 2002. Seven to Eleven years isn't enough to take external code and make it their own? (don't forget, the hurdles of the OSX and intel transitions had to be made by all competing software as well)



    Well it's a lot like target shooting a moving object ...from a moving vehicle. Wouldn't you say that Logic's primary deficiency is audio editing? People often say "Why isn't Logic adding all of these PT features"



    But historically speaking Pro Tools came from Sound Tools which was an audio editior. Pro Tools has always been strong in audio editing because that is its lineage. It's been only recently that the midi functions of Pro Tools approached anything you could call modern.



    Logic came from the old Notator and was a midi program like Opcode Studiovision that bolted on more audio recording/editing features.



    Both are moving towards the same center from polar opposites.
  • Reply 29 of 36
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    That's pretty amusing coming in the middle of a lecture on "The Poor Workman Blames His Tools".



    Correcto but i'm not blaming Blogger for my lack of updates or claiming that it doesn't do things when in fact it does. I'm simply chosing a better tool for my needs. Though the similarities appear to exist at the core we're still talking different issues here.
  • Reply 30 of 36
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Well it's a lot like target shooting a moving object ...from a moving vehicle. Wouldn't you say that Logic's primary deficiency is audio editing? People often say "Why isn't Logic adding all of these PT features"



    But historically speaking Pro Tools came from Sound Tools which was an audio editior. Pro Tools has always been strong in audio editing because that is its lineage. It's been only recently that the midi functions of Pro Tools approached anything you could call modern.



    Logic came from the old Notator and was a midi program like Opcode Studiovision that bolted on more audio recording/editing features.



    Both are moving towards the same center from polar opposites.



    I'd agree with that summary of the situation. For years, Logic was better at midi and PT was better at audio. Problem for apple is now that PT is darn close (maybe even caught up) on midi, they even have notation now, but Logic is still miles behind on audio. Sure, Apple has an excuse. But digi has that same excuse and yet they manage to keep improving their software at a fast pace.



    I'm not sure what Apple's excuse is with Soundtrack Pro, why did that one end up such a buggy, unusable turd?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Correcto but i'm not blaming Blogger for my lack of updates or claiming that it doesn't do things when in fact it does. I'm simply chosing a better tool for my needs. Though the similarities appear to exist at the core we're still talking different issues here.



    What has been claimed that Logic doesn't do that it does?
  • Reply 31 of 36
    brucepbrucep Posts: 2,823member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    I strongly disagree - I'm sure the vast majority of Logic users would be perfectly happy with something that accomplished everything Beat Detective does but in a different way.



    But apple hasn't even done that, they don't offer those abilities in ANY form. This is exactly why apps like logic are falling WAY behind digi. Apple doesn't offer their own version of a feature, they just ignore the competition and their own users and hope nobody notices how behind the times they are.



    What would be so bad about copying a good feature in competing software, whether it's the same implementation of the functionality or a different one? That's exactly what digi did, and not only have they added a bunch of new features, they have taken many of the advantages Logic had and implemented them.







    That's true to a degree, but just compare the latest Logic to the latest Pro Tools - digi put in a hell of a lot more of the features users wanted. And I dare say, I'll bet that the next version of Logic does very little to catch up, it will probably still be missing things like an equivalent to Beat Detective (which is years old).



    Maybe apple dumbs down its software as not too upset adobe to much .
  • Reply 32 of 36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brucep View Post


    Maybe apple dumbs down its software as not too upset adobe to much .



    1000% agree. Which sucks.
  • Reply 33 of 36
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,758member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    Excellent point. Apple's (repeated) promises of 64 bit salvation come up empty when there are no apps taking advantage of it, including their own.



    So will this update be 64 bit or not? With it in beta test, surely someone must know (and be willing to leak) that relatively minor bit of information.



    I'm wondering the same thing. I've got 6 FCS systems to upgrade to any new version and I'd like to know what we would be getting. If 64 bit I would probably want to increase memory in most of the systems as well as consider buying new hardware in some cases.



    Have we even heard if Quicktime is going to be 64bit? I know 64bit is not a panacea, but it is bound to offer advantages when working with super large uncompressed 1080 59.94 video files.
  • Reply 34 of 36
    hiimamachiimamac Posts: 584member
    Besides no flash on iPhone. My biggest rant has been pro apps. Logic has fallen behind all the daws and with video editing, I have fcp but have you ever noticed you ack add fx in iMovie and it plays fluid wheras in fcp it stutters and stops. Hiddeous. Even Vegas does a better job. Logic is in need of updares and believe Apple only bought it from emagic. It must have been to compete with sonic foundys acid with garage band (same dude from sony came to apple.





    Have you even looked at those do called little books that now come with One to One training? All iLife. Apples top priority are iPhones, iMacs and iPods now and expect us to pay top dollar just for the privladge of a good graphics card. Apple used to be all about creatives. Now it's all about consumers. And the mac pro has gone up in price over the recent years and their are no machines for the project artists as most audio devices use FireWire and also do some video editing. I see no reason why they can't release a 4core headless mac with FireWire and great graphics for $1500. Problem is, the pros would buy them for their B, C rooms and Apple knows this. Quite terrible actually as the bedroom musician is a very large market that Apple does not address. I almost worked for steinberg nuendo once and remember asking them what hey thought about wares. They replied, prosumer markert is like 100 fold over pro market and wares promotes their products. Not much is lost at all as it is made back in sales. That was surprising but I believe it. The bedroom project musician is a huge market again, apple does not address these folks which are the next big stars. Only the low end has FireWire but graphics not good enough to edit video and fx. High end is out of their reach yet the market is huge. To think that Apple fears the few big pros like bravo, NBC, showtime would buy a midrange in addition to some mac pros would be offset but a lot of project sales is hard for apple to understand, but the market is their. Most project studios need video, choice of graphics, seperate monitor and for remote, the need decent graphics and FireWire. These at areas Apple now ignores. I think in time, one of these clone makers are going to get it right and computers will fly off the shelves.



    Not sure what people mean about a hack not providing an experience as once the os ison the system, it doesn't know what hardware it has and the experience is quite good. I also agree with another poster. Have seen real macs purchased due to hack machines.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    What specifically is a good thing? That they listened in this one particular case, or that they generally ignore the users?







    Based on what Apple has actually released, I find that incredibly hard to believe - their software has increasingly given the impression that they have few if any people actually doing pro audio/video giving input. Or probably more likely, they do know what users want but just don't have the manpower to actually improve the app in a significant way (brain drain to iMovie and Garage Band?).







    I'd agree with that. But I'd say they should be listening to actual PRO users and instead they seem to be more interested in getting the upgrade from people outgrowing Garage Band.







    I'm confused. When Cubase or PT has a great feature and Logic doesn't, how exactly is that "whining" as opposed to pointing out an actual shortcoming of Logic?







    We're not talking about Apple's business overall, we're talking specifically about pro apps. The last version of Logic had a drastic price cut, I'm sure that brought an influx of cash and new users. But based on what I've seen over the last couple years, I wouldn't be surprised if more and more users abandon it in favor of competing apps that are actually updated. It's hard not to get the impression that Apple doesn't take the pro apps seriously and is fine with using them as a development lab for things like iMovie and Garage Band, and letting them be subsidized instead of having them really compete in the marketplace.



    Do you actually use Logic (and Soundtrack Pro)? Have you actually compared it to the latest versions of competing apps?







    Godspeed and blessings. Hope I didn't offend.
  • Reply 35 of 36
    ]The above two entries list what many of us want, but Apple rarely fulfills our wishlists in their entirety. Which begs the question, how much does Apple truly listen to people who are willing to pay $1,300 for a software suite?[/QUOTE]



    I know everyone here has their pet upgrades they would like to help their workflow. I was hoping now that Apple wasn't going to NAB they could get a better focus on what we NEED as opposed to what looks cool on the big video display in the booth.



    For users going direct to broadcast, I think it LUDICROUS that we don't have Close Captioning built in to FCP!!!! IT'S REQUIRED BY LAW!!!! It's TEXT AND TIMELINE for Pete's sake, how long could it take the dev team? A month? Maybe?



    At close to $7000 for a soft solution, and 3K to 4K to setup for a dial in service, that's blows a hole in our plans for installing an additional suite that I need.



    I spoke with an FCP developer at NAB over two years ago and she said Apple knew it was a needed feature, but she didn't deny that the sexier features with the wow factor got priority.
  • Reply 36 of 36
    minderbinderminderbinder Posts: 1,703member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brucep View Post


    Maybe apple dumbs down its software as not too upset adobe to much .



    That's a possibility. My impression is that they're not intentionally holding the software back, they're just not giving the teams enough manpower and resources to really work on the apps and are instead pulling them off to work on things like Garage Band and iMovie which they consider a higher priority.
Sign In or Register to comment.