Lets say someone works 14 hours a day of McDonalds, five days a week and make $8 an hour. Thats $29,120 a year. I'm sorry to see that it would work out better for you to work at McDonalds, donlphi.
I wonder if Steve is thinking about running for President. He's starting to talk about political things.
I agree. He seems to have political aspirations. Maybe he's reviewed the current lousy crop of politicians throwing their hats in the ring and he thinks he can offer a different discussion. Great for him, but it could be unneccessarily distracting to Apple's business. I say, err on the side of free speech. Screw 'em if they can't take a joke.
Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.
Why is it that NONE of the people I hear say this EVER want to become teachers?
It is such an easy job and it pays so much, WHY DONT YOU DO IT?
Oh yeah. Because its not that easy. And the pay is not that great compared to other similarly educated professionals. And you get little respect from the world. And you have to listen to bonehead comments like you just made...
You are right that respect from students and parents are a big part of it. That might return if you had the power to discipline in the classroom, instead of categorizing them with psychobabble. However, I get "respect teachers' sacrifices" rammed down my throat daily. I'd make the claim that they are respected even more than those who put their lives on the line; police, military, etc. Our society worships education.....the more letters you have after or before your name, the more important you are. How much more respect can society really give? At least congress and the media don't daily threaten to undercut your very mission and livelihood.
I'm sorry if the NCLB made a few teachers feel "humiliated." But if they aren't qualified to teach because they don't have the right credentials, then that is the way it works I guess.
I'm going to be a little harsh here; forgive me ahead of time. I'm going to make a small leap here and guess you are pretty liberal. You take on the mantra of a "victim." You blame the NCLB act for all the troubles...but looking past its faults it is not much more than an accountability measure and it is working ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Chil...vor_of_the_act ). You blame the current presidential administration.....which at least has made a substantive attempt fixing the system, more than ANY previous administration has done. You strike me as a typically self-centered, condescending liberal, thinking that if only everyone "looked up" to you more (respect, avoid accountability, and never ever do anything that might challenge a teacher's pride), threw more money at the problem (more pay, more benes, more more more), and thought just like you....then we'd have a magically perfect system. 1 room schoolhouses with multiple grades and 1 teacher did a far better job than today's system, without 10% of the tools granted today.
Again, forgive me for being harsh, and I do have the utmost respect for your years of service to our future; but I don't have the share your opinions.
First of all, after teaching mostly 8th graders for 36 years, I have a pretty thick skin. I appreciate your comments, but I don't think you have been in a public school setting for a while. Of course the 1 room school house did a great job (they still do on some of Maine's islands). There are some differences to today's situation 1. Homogeneous populations and shared values. 2. Family involvement in education 3.) Direct or almost direct spending of funds.
The teacher and parents could talk daily, special ed paperwork was unheard of. It was a different situation.
When I say respect, I mean a belief that they need education and that I can provide it. I don't mean being "honored" in any way. I would not go to a doctor that I did not respect. Or, to one who thought he or she knew everything. I also mean a general feeling that we are there for the benefit of the students. I can't tell you how many times I was verbally attacked by parents for "lying" about their child. Personality clashes exist, but not when 3 or 4 teachers are involved.
We need better working conditions---more than 20 minutes for lunch while walking around the cafeteria, copy machines that we can access after school hours, paper provided by the district, time to go to the bathroom, an appreciation that we do know what we are doing. Again, I wouldn't tell the doctor how to diagnose my problem...just because I've been in a waiting room doesn't mean I have a medical degree.
I don't know what field you work in, but most jobs requiring advanced education get treated with a lot more respect.
If you have kids, go visit their schools for a day or two. Go in as a career specialist and share your experiences, or bring a hobby to school, or help them (teachers and students) with their computer skills. We need everyone involved and everyone knowledgeable about what is going on.
'm scared, because we are not doing a good job. We are losing good teachers. We have shortages here in the northeast in science, math, and my field, foreign languages. A democracy doesn't work very well with an illiterate population.
I don't have answers--except that NCLB isn't it. I had no problem being highly qualified--I hav 60 or more credit hours in my field. But, did I really need that to do a good job? Not really. Do we need to test as often as we do now, no. Give us time to teach the material first. Do test scores indicate whether a teacher is doing his or her job? Not always. The students, administration and society all share the glory and the blame.
I've rambled enough. I think we want the same things. The answers are not black or white. They do not depend on money alone. And yes, I am a liberal.
I just retired after 36 years of teaching. I have a BA in French and English, have an MAT in French, and am also certified in Spanish, Social Studies and English as a Second Language. I don't know exactly how many credits I have past my master's, but I received credit on the salary scale for 30 additional hours. My final income was $56,000. I started at $5000. Where can I earn $100,000? I'm only 60; I'll go back to work. In my final year I had 110 students a day. The students changed every 10 weeks. I taught 4 sections of Exploratory French and 2 sections of Introduction to culture.
Comments?
I just retired from teaching after 30 years. The starting salary in our state of Maine varies by school district but averages about $25,000 (starting). I worked in one of the larger school districts in the more populous area of the state. After 30 years and a masters degree in science education and one specializing in Computer education I finally hit about $53,000. By the way, a side note. In Maine there is no health insurance of any kind after you retire.. ever.. for life. No medicare, no prescription drugs. You have to buy your own health care upon returement. And boy is it expensive. My hours as a computer teacher and previously as a science teacher were longer than that contracted for also, I won't go into detail about that here.
I retired early from education, if you can consider 30 years early, for many reasons. Many, but not all students have other agendas besides learning. Many, but not all parents have agendas that don't include their kids. Also, the no child left behind act has driven teachers from love-to-ugh as far as their love for teaching is concerned. Speaking as a teacher who would love to give a phrase like "no child left behind" a thumbs up, I can't. It's a dismal failure. Any teacher (really I've never found one othewise) will not say positive things about this political mandate that should have been good but is sapping the profession. Test/assess; even the kids are sick of it. Teachers have to do it. If they don't it's as bad as if they walked out on their class. The feds are on the state's backs and the state is watching the principals. It's the main thrust of all inservice and building planning by law. The heart of education has been sunk by this program. It's really true folks. I've been there. I love teaching. I love being around junior high kids. believe it or not. Heck, Maine gives all 7th and 8th grade students a macbook and after five years we know how to use them. I know this too as I was responsible for educating students with 700 of them and loved it. But with the new regulations and political meddling teachers don't feel like they are teaching any longer.
Teachers know that students scores will rise on local and state assessments and politicians will say glorious things about it. But that's all we will have to show for it. Better test scores on certain canned tests. We teach, by state and local plannng for what's on the test that everyone in the state takes on the same days.Thinking and creativity are on a back burner. What a shame. As little as 10 years ago education was much better than it is now. And, I'm not talking just as a teacher who has had to work for a living. I'm talking from the perspective of student learning, the enjoyment of learning. It's not the pay, although more would be nice. It's the working conditions. And by working conditions I mean this. As a teacher who was out straight during the day the bottom line is that you need to see results. And, when you don't see results and your hands are tied to do anything about it you begin to say, "What's the use." That is why you see teachers leaving the profession in droves. It's as simple as that.
We have a strong teacher union in Maine but they aren't to blame. They talk the big talk but are not really very good at advancing their agendas. People really shouldn't worry about them so much. All the stuff that's going on in education now, the unions are mostly against it. They didn't do much good did they. I belonged to one because they'd provide council to get better health insurance during contract times and they offered a 1 million dollar liability insurance for the classroom.
Education in this country needs a reworking by someone who has a clue. "No child left behind" is to education as to what "mission accomplished" is to the Iraq war. sigh....
Schools cant be run like corporate america. Teachers cant choose their students, the students just sign up - they can great, average or awful students. It's a roll of the dice. Its not the teachers fault.
Imagine if companies didnt have a say on who they hired?
Perhaps the schools need to be able to "fire" certain students as well. \
Bush isn't the best conservative ever, and I'm not a fan of the Feds dictating to the states, but at least the NCLB act was a stab at something; again, more than ANYONE has done to date. You can talk about how Bush didn't fulfill his end of the bargain, how it is too "inside the box," and etc etc....but at the end of the day, if more children are reading better and doing math better, then I'm perfectly happy to "teach to the test." It'd be one thing if it was a 10 question test and we only gave them 10 facts, but we're teaching them skills here.....if "teaching to the test" means imparting useful skills, then I'm all for it.
Problem is, more kids aren't reading better and doing math better. They're just better at taking tests. Not to mention that since the test is pass/fail, the incentive is on improving the lowest kids and ignoring any kids that are already passing.
Per NCLB and similar, "bad teachers" are ones with students that score low. It's ridiculous when you consider that it's based on raw performance and not improvement - if you get a kid who has had awful education his whole life (or even no education) or has mental problems or barely speaks english, you're expected to get him up to whatever grade level he's in by the end of the world. Hell, teachers can even get a kid who never even shows up to school...yet if the kid bombs the test, it's the teacher's fault. Completely idiotic.
Clearly, the most valuable and true comment Steve made, which is fantastic for a computer manufacturer to admit, is that computers are not a cure-all. I doubt Dell has the balls to admit that.
Wikipedia is the greatest thing that has ever happened in the advancement of information since the original encyclopedia...It has become my #1 research site for all my projects...
The idea of using Wikipedia as one's main source of scholarly info is shortsighted and frightening. After all, the Wikipedia's "authors" are ANONYMOUS. For a somewhat extreme example, a homeless person living on the streets can sit down at a public library Internet station and literally put anything he/she wants on a Wikipedia entry. People are not even required to be subject-area experts in order to post something on the Wikipedia, so WRONG INFORMATION can and does get posted there.
The Wikipedia isn't a horrible starting point for getting ideas or finding links to other sources on a given topic, but I certainly wouldn't use it as an actual source. Using online subscription databases paid for by public libraries, K-12 school libraries and/or university libraries is far more wise than relying on Wikipedia, which is essentially just an interesting, anonymous blog. Among other things, online subscription databases such as InfoTrac and many others have actual newspaper and magazine articles written by real journalists whose works need to go through an editorial process prior to being published.
And contrary to popular belief, not everything is on the Internet. Books (which also require an editorial process) are still very useful, and they'll continue to be useful for quite some time. In fact, it's often easier to get reliable information from a library book than the Internet. The publicly accessible World Wide Web is not the end-all and be-all of research. It's a powerful tool, but it's often not the most reliable one.
Many people are unable to differentiate between a quality, reliable Internet source and a really bad Internet source -- especially impulsive K-12 students who just want to click and print the first result they see in Google. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "Oh, but the kids are so good at using technology." Sure, most of them are great at pointing and clicking a mouse, operating cell phones, text messaging, etc. But when they get on the Internet, so many of them turn off their brains altogether when it comes to critical thinking. I see students heading to Google's "Sponsored Links" on a routine basis; many of them don't realize that a sponsored link is a link to a site that mostly just wants to sell them something, so I have to explain this to them. Or I'll notice someone about to print a Geocities personal page with no references as to the name or credentials of the author, and I'll have to explain to them that it's not a good source.
Oh, and just the other day I saw a student looking for info on chemotherapy for a health class literally type the following in the Safari address line:
everythingyouneedtoknowaboutmedicaltreatments.com
I've even had doctors and nurses tell me they see self-diagnosing patients walk in with Web printouts that have bad info from unreliable sources. There's yet another example.
When it's all said and done, you need to pick the right tool for the job, depending on the topic. Sometimes the Internet is the best tool, but other times it can be the worst tool. Using Wikipedia almost exclusively is a very bad habit to get into.
Many people think libraries and librarians are obsolete because of the Internet. That couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is that librarians are needed now more than ever to 1) help differentiate between reliable and unreliable sources of information and 2) point people in the right direction.
Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.
you have no idea what your are talking about.
If you think teaching is such a well paid job, so I don't you become a teacher?
That may have applied back when swing music was all the rage but not today. We no longer have accountable, respectable, honorable military leadership. It's all about the big military contracts today.
I'm not going to argue that the US spends allot on it's military, but I always get a laugh whenever funding arguments come up and the inevitable comparison is to the military budget. Yes, it's the 2nd largest single expense category next to Social Security, but as of 2003 (newest stats I could find with a quick search) military spending as a % of GDP was 3.7%. So, there is no way we could find funding for education (badly needed, I agree with you) someplace in the other 96.3% of GDP?
Today's civilian military leadership is a bunch of asshats, and are presently sinking money into a war we needed to fight (Afghanistan), and one we didn't need to fight (Iraq). But if we want to maintain our position of world leadership in the future, any forces we may need aren't just magically going to appear when we need them if we don't plan ahead. With the speed of today's combat, you aren't going to have two years to ramp up production like in WW2 either, so that can't be a comparison.
I just retired from teaching after 30 years. The starting salary in our state of Maine varies by school district but averages about $25,000 (starting). I worked in one of the larger school districts in the more populous area of the state. After 30 years and a masters degree in science education and one specializing in Computer education I finally hit about $53,000. By the way, a side note. In Maine there is no health insurance of any kind after you retire.. ever.. for life. No medicare, no prescription drugs. You have to buy your own health care upon returement. And boy is it expensive. My hours as a computer teacher and previously as a science teacher were longer than that contracted for also, I won't go into detail about that here.
I retired early from education, if you can consider 30 years early, for many reasons. Many, but not all students have other agendas besides learning. Many, but not all parents have agendas that don't include their kids. Also, the no child left behind act has driven teachers from love-to-ugh as far as their love for teaching is concerned. Speaking as a teacher who would love to give a phrase like "no child left behind" a thumbs up, I can't. It's a dismal failure. Any teacher (really I've never found one othewise) will not say positive things about this political mandate that should have been good but is sapping the profession. Test/assess; even the kids are sick of it. Teachers have to do it. If they don't it's as bad as if they walked out on their class. The feds are on the state's backs and the state is watching the principals. It's the main thrust of all inservice and building planning by law. The heart of education has been sunk by this program. It's really true folks. I've been there. I love teaching. I love being around junior high kids. believe it or not. Heck, Maine gives all 7th and 8th grade students a macbook and after five years we know how to use them. I know this too as I was responsible for educating students with 700 of them and loved it. But with the new regulations and political meddling teachers don't feel like they are teaching any longer.
Teachers know that students scores will rise on local and state assessments and politicians will say glorious things about it. But that's all we will have to show for it. Better test scores on certain canned tests. We teach, by state and local plannng for what's on the test that everyone in the state takes on the same days.Thinking and creativity are on a back burner. What a shame. As little as 10 years ago education was much better than it is now. And, I'm not talking just as a teacher who has had to work for a living. I'm talking from the perspective of student learning, the enjoyment of learning. It's not the pay, although more would be nice. It's the working conditions. And by working conditions I mean this. As a teacher who was out straight during the day the bottom line is that you need to see results. And, when you don't see results and your hands are tied to do anything about it you begin to say, "What's the use." That is why you see teachers leaving the profession in droves. It's as simple as that.
We have a strong teacher union in Maine but they aren't to blame. They talk the big talk but are not really very good at advancing their agendas. People really shouldn't worry about them so much. All the stuff that's going on in education now, the unions are mostly against it. They didn't do much good did they. I belonged to one because they'd provide council to get better health insurance during contract times and they offered a 1 million dollar liability insurance for the classroom.
Education in this country needs a reworking by someone who has a clue. "No child left behind" is to education as to what "mission accomplished" is to the Iraq war. sigh....
I agree 100%. My only question, why no health insurance? We have to pay 55% of it, but we do have it. At least I do. We don't get Medicare, however.
One more point about working during the summer. Because of federal law, we (and teachers in 16 other states) cannot ever collect the SS we contribute at this time.
Jobs does not know what his is talking about. Let him take a total leave of absence from Apple, Pixar, Disney, and everything else and teach a class of 30 first graders in an inner-city or rural public school for one year without using any of his own money or resources, then I'm more likely to listen to his input.
In most places, teachers unions protect the teachers from abusive administrators and the good-ole-boys in the legislatures. In a few locations, unions have gotten out of hand (e.g. New York City) but that doesn't make unions the cause of all problems in public schools. If most legislatures had their way, teachers would be working for minimum wage and without benefits in short order, and all be required to have a PhD and complete 30 hours of continuing education every year at they own expense.
In short, we want the best for our children, but don't want to pony up the money for what that kind of education truly costs. To boot, we are willing to let bad administrators stay because they are part of the good-ole-boy club, and handicap the good administrators that want to try new things by forcing them to stick to the state mandates (many of which are impractical).
Yes, public schools are broken, but don't lay all the blame at the feet of the unions, Steve.
2. We have a teacher shortage, what's worse, fire the bad ones or have none?
3. Teachers are underpayed as it is, the last pay raise they got was federally mandated
4. State legislature is trying to do away with public schools in exchange for vouchers.
5. Governor beleives cutting taxes will solve ALL education problems.
Sure unions can overstep, but in the case of Texas teachers they are all that's keeping the schools from being a tightly wound, non-interactive prison for kids.
Lets be clear here though... he didn't say Texas teachers were bad in any way, shape, or form. He said that Principals, like CEOs, should have the right to fire bad workers.
(edit: actually, I didn't hear what he said... so someone who did hear/read it please correct me if necessary).
Everyone else can read into whether he meant 30% of the workforce or 1% of the workforce. Naturally there is a supply-demand issue and that WOULD factor into a principals decision on whether they wanted to keep or fire a teacher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Of course we have bad teachers. The state of America's youth is just appalling. They are rude, lazy illiterate brats, with arrogant, irresponsible parents. Teachers get no respect these days and the pay is lousy, so who would want to be a teacher? Maybe someone who couldn't hold a job anywhere else.
There is no easy answer to how to fix schools. It's possible that the problem extends throughout society - and not just America either, Australian schools are having increasing problems as are other countries (let's avoid absolute comparisons - just say that we also don't like how things are in schools and want them to be better).
My impression is that a big part of the problem is a skewed perspective of our 'rights' and what our governments are capable of doing. What happens when you combine
- a parents' right for the children to be educated with
- a child's right to self expression and
- a child's right to not be caned (punished) for doing wrong, and
- a teacher's right to be treated well by kids/parents/school, and
- a teacher's right to a job.
....? That's just for starters, of course.
So back to Steve - yeah, I agree that being able to get rid of bad teachers is a start. I'd even go so far as to say it's a fundamental aspect of competition that good performance is rewarded and bad performance leads to financial hardship. And there is much more to the whole problem, of course, but that's a good (and easier!) start.
Have any of you ever seen "Stupid in America". If you have, you'll find that Jobs is actually on the same page as John Stossel in that documentary. The teacher's union contract is incredibly bloated.
Here's what I think
The union should be completely done away with and their contract burned, and have it redrawn from scratch.
The schools should then stop accepting national government funding and be funded by the communities/states they're set in.
Students should then be able to choose what school they attend even if it's not in their district. Competition between schools will increase quality.
This is not radical, most foreign countries have competing schools, and their kids are way smarter than ours.
My wife has been teaching in CT for 10 years, and while the state rewards its teachers with probably the best salary scale in the country, they face the same problems that are apparent in many of the previous comments from around the country: overworked, lack of support, problem "bad apples" in the classroom, declining benefit packages, and an overall increase in stress.
In response to other comments, it's unfair to calculate how much teachers work or don't work - this varies per state, region, and county. My wife's principal demands that the teachers do whatever they can to help the students: this results in offering extra help before school, during lunch, and after school every day. None of these hours are required in their contract. She also attends nearly every talent show, drama production and extracurricular activity in support of the students. Sometimes I don't know how she can still care after some of the disrespect that some students and (usually) their parents put the faculty through. Comments by bavarde, gugy, minderbender, 128pluspb100siduo230 (really need to shorten that name!) are well received, but for some of the others, if you don't know a teacher or haven't been involved with a K-12 school since you were attending, looking up stats on the internet will not give you an instant update.
You cannot compare the teaching profession with anything other than...teaching. We all work hard. We all work late. We all have to take some work home, and we all feel some stress from the boss. I may have to answer to a few superiors at work, but my wife has 100 students with 200 parents that almost all demand her attention and concern when it comes to their children. She knows all their names, their sibling's names, and their parent's names, yet while some students are perfect and brilliant, and some are under-medicated hellions, she is responsible for trying to inspire and teach them all. That kind of responsibility is not common in the workplace.
Teachers should get more - more pay in the states and counties that do not provide it, more support from parents and their local boards, and more respect from adults in other professions that couldn't handle the pressure teachers face every day.
Maybe Steve Jobs is running for something.... he's been a bit preachy lately.... but kudos to him for deciding to stir things up for debate.
On a side note, teachers in Michigan, whether good or bad, can make between $75k and $100k after teaching for ~10 years. I've seen tax returns to support my statement.
And in Las Vegas, you can retire after 10 years of teaching. . . if you last that long. It is considered combat pay because of the high turn-over rate. What's your point?
I applaud you for your sacrifice; you have obvious dedication to the youth of America. I respect education.....not endless administration and mediocre performance.
However, you are the exception....not the rule. I invite you to check out some school districts in the central valley of California; another friend of mine makes more than you with only 10 years of experience and no extra credentials.
And check your central valley California pay with the maximum salary on the pay scale in Oklahoma, Utah, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Idaho, Wyoming, etc, etc, etc. and you'll find it's difficult to get above that $60K to $70K salary.
So, Jobs thinks it is just bad teachers? Like there are no bad exec's? Come on Steve, we all know it is not just bad teachers -- some teachers are that way due to bad Principal's ... if the principal is doing their job, then bad teachers will be weeded out -- no union can protect someone not doing their job Jobs.
How about that tenured College prof? You know the one that is also not very good. They are not union, but have tenure and to dismiss them is an act of congress.
Jobs needs to rethink his ideas .. he needs to step into the classroom (solo) for a month and taste what teachers have to deal with -- and I'm not talking some nice prep school, I'm talking inner city hard core -- some place where being Steven Jobs doesn't mean a thing -- he is just on his own to teach the material and abide by NCLB. Lets see what he has to say after a month of that -- oh, and lets give him a teachers salary too.
It's easy to cast blame and accuse, but I believe things need to start at the top -- look at the District Offices, then Principal's, then teachers ... if they are not performing to requirements, then by all means put them on a plan of improvement and if need be let them go. But, until there is better pay and teaching conditions, those things the teachers unions are trying to get teachers, it is going to be hard to fill these jobs Jobs.
Comments
I wonder if Steve is thinking about running for President. He's starting to talk about political things.
I agree. He seems to have political aspirations. Maybe he's reviewed the current lousy crop of politicians throwing their hats in the ring and he thinks he can offer a different discussion. Great for him, but it could be unneccessarily distracting to Apple's business. I say, err on the side of free speech. Screw 'em if they can't take a joke.
Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.
Why is it that NONE of the people I hear say this EVER want to become teachers?
It is such an easy job and it pays so much, WHY DONT YOU DO IT?
Oh yeah. Because its not that easy. And the pay is not that great compared to other similarly educated professionals. And you get little respect from the world. And you have to listen to bonehead comments like you just made...
You are right that respect from students and parents are a big part of it. That might return if you had the power to discipline in the classroom, instead of categorizing them with psychobabble. However, I get "respect teachers' sacrifices" rammed down my throat daily. I'd make the claim that they are respected even more than those who put their lives on the line; police, military, etc. Our society worships education.....the more letters you have after or before your name, the more important you are. How much more respect can society really give? At least congress and the media don't daily threaten to undercut your very mission and livelihood.
I'm sorry if the NCLB made a few teachers feel "humiliated." But if they aren't qualified to teach because they don't have the right credentials, then that is the way it works I guess.
I'm going to be a little harsh here; forgive me ahead of time. I'm going to make a small leap here and guess you are pretty liberal. You take on the mantra of a "victim." You blame the NCLB act for all the troubles...but looking past its faults it is not much more than an accountability measure and it is working ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Chil...vor_of_the_act ). You blame the current presidential administration.....which at least has made a substantive attempt fixing the system, more than ANY previous administration has done. You strike me as a typically self-centered, condescending liberal, thinking that if only everyone "looked up" to you more (respect, avoid accountability, and never ever do anything that might challenge a teacher's pride), threw more money at the problem (more pay, more benes, more more more), and thought just like you....then we'd have a magically perfect system. 1 room schoolhouses with multiple grades and 1 teacher did a far better job than today's system, without 10% of the tools granted today.
Again, forgive me for being harsh, and I do have the utmost respect for your years of service to our future; but I don't have the share your opinions.
First of all, after teaching mostly 8th graders for 36 years, I have a pretty thick skin. I appreciate your comments, but I don't think you have been in a public school setting for a while. Of course the 1 room school house did a great job (they still do on some of Maine's islands). There are some differences to today's situation 1. Homogeneous populations and shared values. 2. Family involvement in education 3.) Direct or almost direct spending of funds.
The teacher and parents could talk daily, special ed paperwork was unheard of. It was a different situation.
When I say respect, I mean a belief that they need education and that I can provide it. I don't mean being "honored" in any way. I would not go to a doctor that I did not respect. Or, to one who thought he or she knew everything. I also mean a general feeling that we are there for the benefit of the students. I can't tell you how many times I was verbally attacked by parents for "lying" about their child. Personality clashes exist, but not when 3 or 4 teachers are involved.
We need better working conditions---more than 20 minutes for lunch while walking around the cafeteria, copy machines that we can access after school hours, paper provided by the district, time to go to the bathroom, an appreciation that we do know what we are doing. Again, I wouldn't tell the doctor how to diagnose my problem...just because I've been in a waiting room doesn't mean I have a medical degree.
I don't know what field you work in, but most jobs requiring advanced education get treated with a lot more respect.
If you have kids, go visit their schools for a day or two. Go in as a career specialist and share your experiences, or bring a hobby to school, or help them (teachers and students) with their computer skills. We need everyone involved and everyone knowledgeable about what is going on.
'm scared, because we are not doing a good job. We are losing good teachers. We have shortages here in the northeast in science, math, and my field, foreign languages. A democracy doesn't work very well with an illiterate population.
I don't have answers--except that NCLB isn't it. I had no problem being highly qualified--I hav 60 or more credit hours in my field. But, did I really need that to do a good job? Not really. Do we need to test as often as we do now, no. Give us time to teach the material first. Do test scores indicate whether a teacher is doing his or her job? Not always. The students, administration and society all share the glory and the blame.
I've rambled enough. I think we want the same things. The answers are not black or white. They do not depend on money alone. And yes, I am a liberal.
I
I just retired after 36 years of teaching. I have a BA in French and English, have an MAT in French, and am also certified in Spanish, Social Studies and English as a Second Language. I don't know exactly how many credits I have past my master's, but I received credit on the salary scale for 30 additional hours. My final income was $56,000. I started at $5000. Where can I earn $100,000? I'm only 60; I'll go back to work. In my final year I had 110 students a day. The students changed every 10 weeks. I taught 4 sections of Exploratory French and 2 sections of Introduction to culture.
Comments?
I just retired from teaching after 30 years. The starting salary in our state of Maine varies by school district but averages about $25,000 (starting). I worked in one of the larger school districts in the more populous area of the state. After 30 years and a masters degree in science education and one specializing in Computer education I finally hit about $53,000. By the way, a side note. In Maine there is no health insurance of any kind after you retire.. ever.. for life. No medicare, no prescription drugs. You have to buy your own health care upon returement. And boy is it expensive. My hours as a computer teacher and previously as a science teacher were longer than that contracted for also, I won't go into detail about that here.
I retired early from education, if you can consider 30 years early, for many reasons. Many, but not all students have other agendas besides learning. Many, but not all parents have agendas that don't include their kids. Also, the no child left behind act has driven teachers from love-to-ugh as far as their love for teaching is concerned. Speaking as a teacher who would love to give a phrase like "no child left behind" a thumbs up, I can't. It's a dismal failure. Any teacher (really I've never found one othewise) will not say positive things about this political mandate that should have been good but is sapping the profession. Test/assess; even the kids are sick of it. Teachers have to do it. If they don't it's as bad as if they walked out on their class. The feds are on the state's backs and the state is watching the principals. It's the main thrust of all inservice and building planning by law. The heart of education has been sunk by this program. It's really true folks. I've been there. I love teaching. I love being around junior high kids. believe it or not. Heck, Maine gives all 7th and 8th grade students a macbook and after five years we know how to use them. I know this too as I was responsible for educating students with 700 of them and loved it. But with the new regulations and political meddling teachers don't feel like they are teaching any longer.
Teachers know that students scores will rise on local and state assessments and politicians will say glorious things about it. But that's all we will have to show for it. Better test scores on certain canned tests. We teach, by state and local plannng for what's on the test that everyone in the state takes on the same days.Thinking and creativity are on a back burner. What a shame. As little as 10 years ago education was much better than it is now. And, I'm not talking just as a teacher who has had to work for a living. I'm talking from the perspective of student learning, the enjoyment of learning. It's not the pay, although more would be nice. It's the working conditions. And by working conditions I mean this. As a teacher who was out straight during the day the bottom line is that you need to see results. And, when you don't see results and your hands are tied to do anything about it you begin to say, "What's the use." That is why you see teachers leaving the profession in droves. It's as simple as that.
We have a strong teacher union in Maine but they aren't to blame. They talk the big talk but are not really very good at advancing their agendas. People really shouldn't worry about them so much. All the stuff that's going on in education now, the unions are mostly against it. They didn't do much good did they. I belonged to one because they'd provide council to get better health insurance during contract times and they offered a 1 million dollar liability insurance for the classroom.
Education in this country needs a reworking by someone who has a clue. "No child left behind" is to education as to what "mission accomplished" is to the Iraq war. sigh....
Schools cant be run like corporate america. Teachers cant choose their students, the students just sign up - they can great, average or awful students. It's a roll of the dice. Its not the teachers fault.
Imagine if companies didnt have a say on who they hired?
Perhaps the schools need to be able to "fire" certain students as well.
Bush isn't the best conservative ever, and I'm not a fan of the Feds dictating to the states, but at least the NCLB act was a stab at something; again, more than ANYONE has done to date. You can talk about how Bush didn't fulfill his end of the bargain, how it is too "inside the box," and etc etc....but at the end of the day, if more children are reading better and doing math better, then I'm perfectly happy to "teach to the test." It'd be one thing if it was a 10 question test and we only gave them 10 facts, but we're teaching them skills here.....if "teaching to the test" means imparting useful skills, then I'm all for it.
Problem is, more kids aren't reading better and doing math better. They're just better at taking tests. Not to mention that since the test is pass/fail, the incentive is on improving the lowest kids and ignoring any kids that are already passing.
Per NCLB and similar, "bad teachers" are ones with students that score low. It's ridiculous when you consider that it's based on raw performance and not improvement - if you get a kid who has had awful education his whole life (or even no education) or has mental problems or barely speaks english, you're expected to get him up to whatever grade level he's in by the end of the world. Hell, teachers can even get a kid who never even shows up to school...yet if the kid bombs the test, it's the teacher's fault. Completely idiotic.
Wikipedia is the greatest thing that has ever happened in the advancement of information since the original encyclopedia...It has become my #1 research site for all my projects...
The idea of using Wikipedia as one's main source of scholarly info is shortsighted and frightening. After all, the Wikipedia's "authors" are ANONYMOUS. For a somewhat extreme example, a homeless person living on the streets can sit down at a public library Internet station and literally put anything he/she wants on a Wikipedia entry. People are not even required to be subject-area experts in order to post something on the Wikipedia, so WRONG INFORMATION can and does get posted there.
The Wikipedia isn't a horrible starting point for getting ideas or finding links to other sources on a given topic, but I certainly wouldn't use it as an actual source. Using online subscription databases paid for by public libraries, K-12 school libraries and/or university libraries is far more wise than relying on Wikipedia, which is essentially just an interesting, anonymous blog. Among other things, online subscription databases such as InfoTrac and many others have actual newspaper and magazine articles written by real journalists whose works need to go through an editorial process prior to being published.
And contrary to popular belief, not everything is on the Internet. Books (which also require an editorial process) are still very useful, and they'll continue to be useful for quite some time. In fact, it's often easier to get reliable information from a library book than the Internet. The publicly accessible World Wide Web is not the end-all and be-all of research. It's a powerful tool, but it's often not the most reliable one.
Many people are unable to differentiate between a quality, reliable Internet source and a really bad Internet source -- especially impulsive K-12 students who just want to click and print the first result they see in Google. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "Oh, but the kids are so good at using technology." Sure, most of them are great at pointing and clicking a mouse, operating cell phones, text messaging, etc. But when they get on the Internet, so many of them turn off their brains altogether when it comes to critical thinking. I see students heading to Google's "Sponsored Links" on a routine basis; many of them don't realize that a sponsored link is a link to a site that mostly just wants to sell them something, so I have to explain this to them. Or I'll notice someone about to print a Geocities personal page with no references as to the name or credentials of the author, and I'll have to explain to them that it's not a good source.
Oh, and just the other day I saw a student looking for info on chemotherapy for a health class literally type the following in the Safari address line:
everythingyouneedtoknowaboutmedicaltreatments.com
I've even had doctors and nurses tell me they see self-diagnosing patients walk in with Web printouts that have bad info from unreliable sources. There's yet another example.
When it's all said and done, you need to pick the right tool for the job, depending on the topic. Sometimes the Internet is the best tool, but other times it can be the worst tool. Using Wikipedia almost exclusively is a very bad habit to get into.
Many people think libraries and librarians are obsolete because of the Internet. That couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is that librarians are needed now more than ever to 1) help differentiate between reliable and unreliable sources of information and 2) point people in the right direction.
Finally, on a lighter note...
The Onion - "Wikipedia Celebrates 750 Years Of American Independence: Founding Fathers, Patriots, Mr. T. Honored"
July 26, 2006
Teacher don't need to be paid more. Do you realize how much money most teachers make, even those just starting out? Most make 40k starting out and then get up close to 100k when they retire or even sooner than that. And the fact that you get to work only 9 MONTHS OF THE YEAR? Wonderful if you ask me. No need to pay them anymore than what they get.
you have no idea what your are talking about.
If you think teaching is such a well paid job, so I don't you become a teacher?
That may have applied back when swing music was all the rage but not today. We no longer have accountable, respectable, honorable military leadership. It's all about the big military contracts today.
I'm not going to argue that the US spends allot on it's military, but I always get a laugh whenever funding arguments come up and the inevitable comparison is to the military budget. Yes, it's the 2nd largest single expense category next to Social Security, but as of 2003 (newest stats I could find with a quick search) military spending as a % of GDP was 3.7%. So, there is no way we could find funding for education (badly needed, I agree with you) someplace in the other 96.3% of GDP?
Today's civilian military leadership is a bunch of asshats, and are presently sinking money into a war we needed to fight (Afghanistan), and one we didn't need to fight (Iraq). But if we want to maintain our position of world leadership in the future, any forces we may need aren't just magically going to appear when we need them if we don't plan ahead. With the speed of today's combat, you aren't going to have two years to ramp up production like in WW2 either, so that can't be a comparison.
I just retired from teaching after 30 years. The starting salary in our state of Maine varies by school district but averages about $25,000 (starting). I worked in one of the larger school districts in the more populous area of the state. After 30 years and a masters degree in science education and one specializing in Computer education I finally hit about $53,000. By the way, a side note. In Maine there is no health insurance of any kind after you retire.. ever.. for life. No medicare, no prescription drugs. You have to buy your own health care upon returement. And boy is it expensive. My hours as a computer teacher and previously as a science teacher were longer than that contracted for also, I won't go into detail about that here.
I retired early from education, if you can consider 30 years early, for many reasons. Many, but not all students have other agendas besides learning. Many, but not all parents have agendas that don't include their kids. Also, the no child left behind act has driven teachers from love-to-ugh as far as their love for teaching is concerned. Speaking as a teacher who would love to give a phrase like "no child left behind" a thumbs up, I can't. It's a dismal failure. Any teacher (really I've never found one othewise) will not say positive things about this political mandate that should have been good but is sapping the profession. Test/assess; even the kids are sick of it. Teachers have to do it. If they don't it's as bad as if they walked out on their class. The feds are on the state's backs and the state is watching the principals. It's the main thrust of all inservice and building planning by law. The heart of education has been sunk by this program. It's really true folks. I've been there. I love teaching. I love being around junior high kids. believe it or not. Heck, Maine gives all 7th and 8th grade students a macbook and after five years we know how to use them. I know this too as I was responsible for educating students with 700 of them and loved it. But with the new regulations and political meddling teachers don't feel like they are teaching any longer.
Teachers know that students scores will rise on local and state assessments and politicians will say glorious things about it. But that's all we will have to show for it. Better test scores on certain canned tests. We teach, by state and local plannng for what's on the test that everyone in the state takes on the same days.Thinking and creativity are on a back burner. What a shame. As little as 10 years ago education was much better than it is now. And, I'm not talking just as a teacher who has had to work for a living. I'm talking from the perspective of student learning, the enjoyment of learning. It's not the pay, although more would be nice. It's the working conditions. And by working conditions I mean this. As a teacher who was out straight during the day the bottom line is that you need to see results. And, when you don't see results and your hands are tied to do anything about it you begin to say, "What's the use." That is why you see teachers leaving the profession in droves. It's as simple as that.
We have a strong teacher union in Maine but they aren't to blame. They talk the big talk but are not really very good at advancing their agendas. People really shouldn't worry about them so much. All the stuff that's going on in education now, the unions are mostly against it. They didn't do much good did they. I belonged to one because they'd provide council to get better health insurance during contract times and they offered a 1 million dollar liability insurance for the classroom.
Education in this country needs a reworking by someone who has a clue. "No child left behind" is to education as to what "mission accomplished" is to the Iraq war. sigh....
I agree 100%. My only question, why no health insurance? We have to pay 55% of it, but we do have it. At least I do. We don't get Medicare, however.
One more point about working during the summer. Because of federal law, we (and teachers in 16 other states) cannot ever collect the SS we contribute at this time.
In most places, teachers unions protect the teachers from abusive administrators and the good-ole-boys in the legislatures. In a few locations, unions have gotten out of hand (e.g. New York City) but that doesn't make unions the cause of all problems in public schools. If most legislatures had their way, teachers would be working for minimum wage and without benefits in short order, and all be required to have a PhD and complete 30 hours of continuing education every year at they own expense.
In short, we want the best for our children, but don't want to pony up the money for what that kind of education truly costs. To boot, we are willing to let bad administrators stay because they are part of the good-ole-boy club, and handicap the good administrators that want to try new things by forcing them to stick to the state mandates (many of which are impractical).
Yes, public schools are broken, but don't lay all the blame at the feet of the unions, Steve.
1. Texas schools are teetering on bankruptcy
2. We have a teacher shortage, what's worse, fire the bad ones or have none?
3. Teachers are underpayed as it is, the last pay raise they got was federally mandated
4. State legislature is trying to do away with public schools in exchange for vouchers.
5. Governor beleives cutting taxes will solve ALL education problems.
Sure unions can overstep, but in the case of Texas teachers they are all that's keeping the schools from being a tightly wound, non-interactive prison for kids.
Lets be clear here though... he didn't say Texas teachers were bad in any way, shape, or form. He said that Principals, like CEOs, should have the right to fire bad workers.
(edit: actually, I didn't hear what he said... so someone who did hear/read it please correct me if necessary).
Everyone else can read into whether he meant 30% of the workforce or 1% of the workforce. Naturally there is a supply-demand issue and that WOULD factor into a principals decision on whether they wanted to keep or fire a teacher.
Of course we have bad teachers. The state of America's youth is just appalling. They are rude, lazy illiterate brats, with arrogant, irresponsible parents. Teachers get no respect these days and the pay is lousy, so who would want to be a teacher? Maybe someone who couldn't hold a job anywhere else.
There is no easy answer to how to fix schools. It's possible that the problem extends throughout society - and not just America either, Australian schools are having increasing problems as are other countries (let's avoid absolute comparisons - just say that we also don't like how things are in schools and want them to be better).
My impression is that a big part of the problem is a skewed perspective of our 'rights' and what our governments are capable of doing. What happens when you combine
- a parents' right for the children to be educated with
- a child's right to self expression and
- a child's right to not be caned (punished) for doing wrong, and
- a teacher's right to be treated well by kids/parents/school, and
- a teacher's right to a job.
....? That's just for starters, of course.
So back to Steve - yeah, I agree that being able to get rid of bad teachers is a start. I'd even go so far as to say it's a fundamental aspect of competition that good performance is rewarded and bad performance leads to financial hardship. And there is much more to the whole problem, of course, but that's a good (and easier!) start.
Here's what I think
- The union should be completely done away with and their contract burned, and have it redrawn from scratch.
- The schools should then stop accepting national government funding and be funded by the communities/states they're set in.
- Students should then be able to choose what school they attend even if it's not in their district. Competition between schools will increase quality.
This is not radical, most foreign countries have competing schools, and their kids are way smarter than ours.In response to other comments, it's unfair to calculate how much teachers work or don't work - this varies per state, region, and county. My wife's principal demands that the teachers do whatever they can to help the students: this results in offering extra help before school, during lunch, and after school every day. None of these hours are required in their contract. She also attends nearly every talent show, drama production and extracurricular activity in support of the students. Sometimes I don't know how she can still care after some of the disrespect that some students and (usually) their parents put the faculty through. Comments by bavarde, gugy, minderbender, 128pluspb100siduo230 (really need to shorten that name!) are well received, but for some of the others, if you don't know a teacher or haven't been involved with a K-12 school since you were attending, looking up stats on the internet will not give you an instant update.
You cannot compare the teaching profession with anything other than...teaching. We all work hard. We all work late. We all have to take some work home, and we all feel some stress from the boss. I may have to answer to a few superiors at work, but my wife has 100 students with 200 parents that almost all demand her attention and concern when it comes to their children. She knows all their names, their sibling's names, and their parent's names, yet while some students are perfect and brilliant, and some are under-medicated hellions, she is responsible for trying to inspire and teach them all. That kind of responsibility is not common in the workplace.
Teachers should get more - more pay in the states and counties that do not provide it, more support from parents and their local boards, and more respect from adults in other professions that couldn't handle the pressure teachers face every day.
Maybe Steve Jobs is running for something.... he's been a bit preachy lately.... but kudos to him for deciding to stir things up for debate.
On a side note, teachers in Michigan, whether good or bad, can make between $75k and $100k after teaching for ~10 years. I've seen tax returns to support my statement.
And in Las Vegas, you can retire after 10 years of teaching. . . if you last that long. It is considered combat pay because of the high turn-over rate. What's your point?
I applaud you for your sacrifice; you have obvious dedication to the youth of America. I respect education.....not endless administration and mediocre performance.
However, you are the exception....not the rule. I invite you to check out some school districts in the central valley of California; another friend of mine makes more than you with only 10 years of experience and no extra credentials.
And check your central valley California pay with the maximum salary on the pay scale in Oklahoma, Utah, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Idaho, Wyoming, etc, etc, etc. and you'll find it's difficult to get above that $60K to $70K salary.
How about that tenured College prof? You know the one that is also not very good. They are not union, but have tenure and to dismiss them is an act of congress.
Jobs needs to rethink his ideas .. he needs to step into the classroom (solo) for a month and taste what teachers have to deal with -- and I'm not talking some nice prep school, I'm talking inner city hard core -- some place where being Steven Jobs doesn't mean a thing -- he is just on his own to teach the material and abide by NCLB. Lets see what he has to say after a month of that -- oh, and lets give him a teachers salary too.
It's easy to cast blame and accuse, but I believe things need to start at the top -- look at the District Offices, then Principal's, then teachers ... if they are not performing to requirements, then by all means put them on a plan of improvement and if need be let them go. But, until there is better pay and teaching conditions, those things the teachers unions are trying to get teachers, it is going to be hard to fill these jobs Jobs.