The question I have for the above comment is does he actually use these features??? I would say 9 out of 10 people I know with advanced phones, who paid $200+ for them, only use the phone feature because they can't figure out the rest, or its just too clumsy to use. Yes, the 'geeks' here (and I'm one as well) can use these features. But they are a comparatively small market. I say this just based on the 9 of 10 above.
I'm really struggling with whether to get an iphone. For 80% of what I do with my phone, it'll be ideal. But the difference between this case and the iPod is: 3rd party apps exist on other phones, are useful, and many work well. That's not a missing feature but a whole other philosophy. Of course Apple won't add SSH client... but with this closed system I can't add one myself. And SSH on my phone is useful to me. So do I get an iphone and lose such features? Or do I get an E90 and lose most the ease of use? It's a really tricky choice. If iphone was an open platform the choice would be a lot easier.
I'm really struggling with whether to get an iphone. For 80% of what I do with my phone, it'll be ideal. But the difference between this case and the iPod is: 3rd party apps exist on other phones, are useful, and many work well. That's not a missing feature but a whole other philosophy. Of course Apple won't add SSH client... but with this closed system I can't add one myself. And SSH on my phone is useful to me. So do I get an iphone and lose such features? Or do I get an E90 and lose most the ease of use? It's a really tricky choice. If iphone was an open platform the choice would be a lot easier.
I agree fully that this is the choice at the moment. For me its easy, others not. I personally think Apple is making the right choice. They won't have the ease of use nailed at the first release. I believe that their initial upgrades ( and they have already indicated reasonably frequent sw upgrades via itunes) will be focussed at the usability, etc. After that, new features.
I'm really struggling with whether to get an iphone. For 80% of what I do with my phone, it'll be ideal. But the difference between this case and the iPod is: 3rd party apps exist on other phones, are useful, and many work well. That's not a missing feature but a whole other philosophy. Of course Apple won't add SSH client... but with this closed system I can't add one myself. And SSH on my phone is useful to me. So do I get an iphone and lose such features? Or do I get an E90 and lose most the ease of use? It's a really tricky choice. If iphone was an open platform the choice would be a lot easier.
BTW I looked around some for a non-java based browser/terminal. Looks like there is an Ajax/python solution (on the server side) that only requires javascript on the browser.
I need it in all of its crude 3d glory and i have no doubt that i could run on the iPhone. ( i may have to take this back when i get one or find out the specs.)
You know... I'm only going to say this once, until after the iPhone ships. Most of the people complaining about the lack of Flash, don't truly realize what is possible in Safari 3, without Flash at ALL. Safari was the first of the browsers out there to release support for the CANVAS. Because Internet Exploder didn't pick this up (though Firefox and Opera did), not alot was done with the canvas until compatibility work-arounds were worked out. But, if you're an iPhone developer, why should you care that Internet Explorer isn't standards compliant? Dark Forces? Raise you're hand if you're NOT working on the first 3D shoot-em up for the iPhone. I'll give you a link. Here:
#2.) Smooth animation, huh? Don't try this on IE. It's sloooooow.
#3.) Like the real-time map view in the upper left?
What am I working on? Oh... nothing. Nothing at all. That's it. Anyway... All the complaining just bugs the crap out of me. I'm going to go through these points, but start by saying I have NO sympathy for people making these arguments. I completely see their points, and yet I strongly disagree.
Web apps require server access via the internet to operate. This is true. It's not the end of the story. I can assure you that a lot of people have Internet access and accomplish things on it everyday. Even these "to go" Internet Service Apps from companies like "Salesforce" need to EVENTUALLY connect to the Internet. Psst. Cookies. That's right, I said it. Personally, I have methods of storing a lot a freaking data in a cookie. You can push it all back up whenever you like if you do it right. Also, you contend that you won't be able to start up an iPhone app without an Internet connection. --Will you EAT YOUR HAT if I can prove to you (post launch, of course) that this will not be the case? I'm not sure if you've experienced this, but Safari can be one of the most ornery browsers when it comes to releasing its cache (just search on "Safari" and "cache". I'll just put that out there and say "headers", for no particular reason.
NO 3G UTMS/HSDPA. There is no way on Earth we won't hear the primal scream if things are as bad as you say. There are different classes of EDGE devices. Most people don't know this. Most people talking about EDGE speeds have no practical experience or wide-spread sampling data to speak of. It's really a shame. There are EDGE phones out there hauling ass at 200k for people. Worth noting.
Reduced developer Incentive. I think the question of people who put out things with no business plan is valid, but somewhat silly. Someone somewhere should offer free app hosting. Hm. Sounds like a very good possibility. There is NO reduced developer incentive. NONE. Why? Because nothing has been taken away. No one EVER promised anything! "Reduced". Meh. Trust me, developers can do more selling a SERVICE than a SUPPLY. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. If Apple said that the iPhone wouldn't support secure socket connections or maybe that they'd NOT supported the XML_Reponse object, that would be a REDUCED incentive. This is just finding out the lay of the land... and its mighty fine compared to other phones. Mighty fine. Someone noted that the Nokia ran Webkit too, and that people should also let their apps run without browser sniffing. Personally, I don't care about creating an "experience" that "also" runs on a Nokia, as you'd never really be able to be sure of a screen size on the delivery platform. The iPhone is a clear given, a highly promising community, and a vibrant interface. That's incentive in my book.
PalmOS, Windows Mobile, Blackberry's OS, Symbian, and nearly every cellphone OS via JAVA can run 3rd-party applications. They can run stuff REALLY BADLY as far as I'm concerned. Crashy, crash, McCrash. This is the first iteration of the iPhone. It's the first cell phone with a full modern feature-complete desktop-class operating system on it. Let Apple work out all the security problems hiding in the corners. They are doing a HELL of a lot for a first release. Palm called them out on it too. Apple needs to make sure this thing works before they make it "open" for everyone in the world to throw stuff on top of it. Crashy McCrash I can do without. Look how fast people were to exploit Safari for Windows. With everything these other "smart" phones can do, its amusing that they're having so many people ignore them in favoring the iPhone. It's possible that user-experience is the true kill app, isn't it?
IT RUNS OSX Sure does. Free upgrades for the next 2 years at least. Something tells me we'll be a seeing a more coherent strategy with this. Apple is already using Safari and iTunes to seed Bon Jour onto Macs and PCs. It's "discovery" ability will clearly play a huge roll in their wireless plans (notice the patent on iPhone controlling iTunes?) I'd hate to think those plans get "mucked with" by trigger happy developers muscling each other out of the way. Because its REALLY the MacOS, there's a LOT of places Apple likely hasn't properly locked away yet. Impatience is infectuous, and often disasterous in this grand world of the public BETA.
Multi-touch. I'll say this much. I will be digital "fingerpainting" on my iPhone on launch day. After that, who knows? I might even be finger painting with the separate net-connected iPhone user next to me drawing a moustache on my stick figure man. What will YOU be doing?
No FLASH support. Awesome. Without Flash support, we get the REAL Internet, not the Flash Internet. This is a plus, not a minus. As I've hinted, you can sure do a lot without Flash holding you back. More over, the "a lot" you can do, is readable by search engines without a lot of backflips and hand-holding. Are we developing apps for iPhone or Adobe? Even the Nokia N95 isn't running "real" Flash, so why be concerned about it? I think the iPhone will play embedded Quicktime. Just my guess, but this will likely be the source of much interest. In the iPod, you could load notes that accessed your media library to playback to you. Crossing my fingers, but I hope iPhone does too. The "NOTES" app is a whole other topic of discussion, as it will support a lot of HTML. Hmmm...
No self-contained Widgets? - That's a little dissappointing, but who knows. We'll see if aliasing to the startpage is eventually possible... but while somewhat dissappointing, its not the apocalypse people think.
Cellular data network overwhelmed. - Hm. Hundreds of thousands of zombie phones on a cellular network with lots of multithreaded multitasking processing power and e-mail capabilities. I think its naive to think that's not a potential problem. How do the others do it? By forcing people to write "baby" apps and by taking things really slowly.
Hackers/Crackers Finally - Yeah. There will be an interesting minority community of people interested in HACKING their phones. Very possible Apple will keep breaking these solutions on a regular basis. I think the war will take interest away from much more interesting things being created by people that have seen the light.
The question I have for the above comment is does he actually use these features?
Yeah, he actually uses all of those features. Those were only the things that I've seen him use it for, he does more things with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
Yes, the 'geeks' here (and I'm one as well) can use these features. But they are a comparatively small market. I say this just based on the 9 of 10 above.
First, I can say honestly that IF the iPhone works as advertised regarding the iPod capabilities, Safari browser, mail and chat clients, I've got something more valuable than any other advanced phone I've played with that's out there now. If it just work. The Web 2.0 is a bonus, which I think is great. When and if the rest follows, great.
Yeah that's true but to me it means the iphone is going to be less revolutionary than some people including me think it could be. The revolutionary part for me was having a desktop on a phone and that's mostly gone now. It's now just a really sophisticated phone. Of course they could change this in future or 3rd party developers might find a way round it.
#2.) Smooth animation, huh? Don't try this on IE. It's sloooooow.
#3.) Like the real-time map view in the upper left?
That uses one whole CPU of my Core Duo desktop. How fast is the iphone?
Of course 3D java stuff is possible and I presume people can still make applets to run on the iphone. You can do loads of stuff with them. I had to write a raytracer in an applet once so 3d is definitely possible. But these apps still run with the overhead of a full browser on a portable device and there are still a lot of limitations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverboy
They can run stuff REALLY BADLY as far as I'm concerned. Crashy, crash, McCrash.
Not in my experience. My brother and my dad use palmtops - my brother has a pocketpc with GPS and they are pretty stable, despite the multitude of things they do with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverboy
What will YOU be doing?
Laughing at my 3 (at least) work colleagues who are going to buy one. I might take a Palm with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverboy
Oh, and everyone... keep this under your hat... here's the super-secret iPhone SDK...
That's just a bunch of javascripts to animate websites (including the drawers on Apple's new site). It hardly improves the shortcomings of a web-based SDK.
Yeah that's true but to me it means the iphone is going to be less revolutionary than some people including me think it could be. The revolutionary part for me was having a desktop on a phone and that's mostly gone now. It's now just a really sophisticated phone. Of course they could change this in future or 3rd party developers might find a way round it.
I agree with basically everything you say but I think the 'revolutionary' aspect of the phone is the entire paradigm shift, not an extension of current practices. This involves not just the look and ease of use, which attract the market, but the full OS basis and multitouch, but which will take years to have full impact. As or more important to the 'revolutionary' tagline, the change in the interaction with the carriers, which Apple is clearly changing. This last can be seen in the frustration its creating with those waiting for the phone. They want the information (about plans, signup, etc.) in the same format and way as the past and they aren't getting it. This is also because of a change in paradigm, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Of course 3D java stuff is possible and I presume people can still make applets to run on the iphone. You can do loads of stuff with them. I had to write a raytracer in an applet once so 3d is definitely possible. But these apps still run with the overhead of a full browser on a portable device and there are still a lot of limitations.
Not to rain and any minor parade here - Don't forget NO JAVA.
Nice work, now i know more of what these web applications are possible of.
I already have dark forces running on a version of classic not supported because its requirments are so low that it would run on the iPhone. That was my whole idea. I was somehow going to run an apple os on the iPhone, probzbly not the os its self but rather the compnets required for games.
Im pretty sure i wount be able to stream a version of an apple os with dark forces to the iPhone but you never know. Its sort of hard to send 20 floppy disks of information instantly. People have gotten NES games to run on the internet with web 2 and other tools so you never know but i believe its just too much data. The whole idea of using dark forces was that it would be the actual full game running, i never thought that the game wouldnt be stored on the phone.
Its all very upsetting.
Did jobs ever say the iPhone was closed or that they just wouldnt be making a SDK for it?
Look as much as I think Jobs was high insulting developers at, uh, the developer conference I do believe there is an SDK coming (all his garbage about web apps being this great to way to develop for the iPhone aside).
Frankly there's no way Apple even has their internal development software up to snuff at the moment, and when they do (Christmas, or Spring I imagine as the iPhone goes to Europe, gains 3G, and goes to Asia) then they'll release an SDK?although it might be widget only for the beginning, and expand later.
So I, for one, am certain there is an SDK coming. It just has to wait for a) Apple to actually, you know, have an SDK in complete form, and b) probably software update the iPhone to include sandbox/additional protection for non-Apple apps or b2) require apps to go through Apple and iTunes Store.
I already have dark forces running on a version of classic not supported because its requirments are so low that it would run on the iPhone.
I do not think its reasonable to expect that the phone, no matter WHAT would a.) Run classic Mac apps b.) run existing Mac apps without a recompile (unless Rosetta was ported to ARM) c.) Run a PC emulator like Parallels. d.) Run anything that takes a substantial amount of system resources. It's JUST a phone. It's been clear since the beignning that Apple has set out to "reinvent the phone", not to "repackage the Macintosh" into a small deck of playing cards. People hear different things I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpiddly
Did jobs ever say the iPhone was closed or that they just wouldnt be making a SDK for it?
No, he didn't. While he sold Web 2.0, he never said never. I don't think ANYONE should hold their breath though. --Especially if you're holding it for running "Mac Classic" apps on your phone. I really think that's unreasonable given the situation. iPhone is a unique platform full of promise, but its not a panacea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Monk
So I, for one, am certain there is an SDK coming. It just has to wait for a) Apple to actually, you know, have an SDK in complete form, and b) probably software update the iPhone to include sandbox/additional protection for non-Apple apps or b2) require apps to go through Apple and iTunes Store.
Holding your breath will turn you blue. That's a pun. Just sayin'.
Hmm, that's another thing the PocketPC and Palms have. \
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy
I think the 'revolutionary' aspect of the phone is the entire paradigm shift, not an extension of current practices.
In the smartphone market I guess but when I compare it to a palmtop, I don't see many distinctions besides stylus vs fingers and they go way back to the Newton.
Also touch screens are used quite a lot these days, I see them all the time at checkouts.
Can people write on the iphone btw or is it just a gesture interface?
As long as I can save and use the Web2 "application" I would agree it's a tradeoff I'm going to accept. But now I'm dependant on a web connection every time I use these "web-pages".. that's a shame. I think Apple should go Widget all the way. Let us use Widgets on iPhone..
Hmm, that's another thing the PocketPC and Palms have. \
In the smartphone market I guess but when I compare it to a palmtop, I don't see many distinctions besides stylus vs fingers and they go way back to the Newton.
Also touch screens are used quite a lot these days, I see them all the time at checkouts.
Can people write on the iphone btw or is it just a gesture interface?
Not to belabor a point but comparing features is not the shift, is how you use these features and how the interact.
Apple has already announced there will be more apps for the iPhone. None of us know what those apps will be so Apple has not shown all of its card yet. I imagine there will be a lot of back tracking on these Palm and Pocket PC comparisons once we have a better picture of Apple's direction.
Quote:
Yeah that's true but to me it means the iphone is going to be less revolutionary than some people including me think it could be. The revolutionary part for me was having a desktop on a phone and that's mostly gone now.
Apple never promised a desktop on a phone. That is your own misguided expectation. Plus Microsoft already made this concept called the UMPC. And it hasn't worked out too well.
Quote:
Also touch screens are used quite a lot these days, I see them all the time at checkouts.
Comparing the multi-touch UI to a grocery store touchscreen? Are you serious?
In-spite of all of those great, well written, and useful 3rd party apps Palm isn't doing so well.
Struggling handheld device maker Palm has been hit with layoffs.
The layoffs, which occurred Thursday, affected "a small percentage" of Palm's approximately 1,200 employees and were concentrated in the company's development group, according to a company spokesman. They primarily affect Palm employees in the US, he added.
Palm has seen steady decline in the handheld device market where it leads the market and is in the midst of financial restructuring. Last week, private equity investors Elevation Partners took a 25 per cent stake in Palm, investing $325 million into the struggling smartphone maker.
What a joke. To characterize a functional web browser as support for third party developers is misleading at best.
It's almost as "clever" as their commercials comparing an operating system to a computer. "Windows doensn't come with a cool camera." Well, duh!!!
Hmmmm. . . . Have you ever seen one of these commercials? They all start with: "Hello, I'm a Mac," "and I'm a PC." They don't say: Hello, I'm a Mac OSX," "and I'm a Windows." PC doesn't come with the camera, I don't remember a mention of Windows.
In-spite of all of those great, well written, and useful 3rd party apps Palm isn't doing so well.
Struggling handheld device maker Palm has been hit with layoffs.
The layoffs, which occurred Thursday, affected "a small percentage" of Palm's approximately 1,200 employees and were concentrated in the company's development group, according to a company spokesman. They primarily affect Palm employees in the US, he added.
Palm has seen steady decline in the handheld device market where it leads the market and is in the midst of financial restructuring. Last week, private equity investors Elevation Partners took a 25 per cent stake in Palm, investing $325 million into the struggling smartphone maker.
Palm isn't doing well because they are up against two juggernauts, MS and Nokia, with Symbian.
Palm was never big enough to put the money needed into the business when those two gients decided to compete.
Apple now has the money that Palm always lacked.
But, I don't ever remember a review that said that Windows Mobile or CE was ever as good as Palm's products, even when on the same hardware.
As Symbian is mostly in Europe, where Palm never spent as much time, it has easily taken over there.
But, as we all know, the best product doesn't always win.
Hmmmm. . . . Have you ever seen one of these commercials? They all start with: "Hello, I'm a Mac," "and I'm a PC." They don't say: Hello, I'm a Mac OSX," "and I'm a Windows." PC doesn't come with the camera, I don't remember a mention of Windows.
LOL, case in point. Either you're choosing to be argumentative, naive, you're a fanboy, or you're one of the people they pander to. Are you telling me that PCs don't come with a camera? Do PCs ask "Allow or Cancel?". No. The commercial is targeted at Windows vs. Mac. Now quit being silly.
If we refuse to read between the lines the way you selectively choose, a Mac *is* a PC making the commercial ever more ridiculous.
Comments
The question I have for the above comment is does he actually use these features??? I would say 9 out of 10 people I know with advanced phones, who paid $200+ for them, only use the phone feature because they can't figure out the rest, or its just too clumsy to use. Yes, the 'geeks' here (and I'm one as well) can use these features. But they are a comparatively small market. I say this just based on the 9 of 10 above.
I'm really struggling with whether to get an iphone. For 80% of what I do with my phone, it'll be ideal. But the difference between this case and the iPod is: 3rd party apps exist on other phones, are useful, and many work well. That's not a missing feature but a whole other philosophy. Of course Apple won't add SSH client... but with this closed system I can't add one myself. And SSH on my phone is useful to me. So do I get an iphone and lose such features? Or do I get an E90 and lose most the ease of use? It's a really tricky choice. If iphone was an open platform the choice would be a lot easier.
I'm really struggling with whether to get an iphone. For 80% of what I do with my phone, it'll be ideal. But the difference between this case and the iPod is: 3rd party apps exist on other phones, are useful, and many work well. That's not a missing feature but a whole other philosophy. Of course Apple won't add SSH client... but with this closed system I can't add one myself. And SSH on my phone is useful to me. So do I get an iphone and lose such features? Or do I get an E90 and lose most the ease of use? It's a really tricky choice. If iphone was an open platform the choice would be a lot easier.
I agree fully that this is the choice at the moment. For me its easy, others not. I personally think Apple is making the right choice. They won't have the ease of use nailed at the first release. I believe that their initial upgrades ( and they have already indicated reasonably frequent sw upgrades via itunes) will be focussed at the usability, etc. After that, new features.
I'm really struggling with whether to get an iphone. For 80% of what I do with my phone, it'll be ideal. But the difference between this case and the iPod is: 3rd party apps exist on other phones, are useful, and many work well. That's not a missing feature but a whole other philosophy. Of course Apple won't add SSH client... but with this closed system I can't add one myself. And SSH on my phone is useful to me. So do I get an iphone and lose such features? Or do I get an E90 and lose most the ease of use? It's a really tricky choice. If iphone was an open platform the choice would be a lot easier.
BTW I looked around some for a non-java based browser/terminal. Looks like there is an Ajax/python solution (on the server side) that only requires javascript on the browser.
possible terminal solution for iPhone
Haven't looked closely yet.
They are nice but they arnt DARK FORCES!!!!
I need it in all of its crude 3d glory and i have no doubt that i could run on the iPhone. ( i may have to take this back when i get one or find out the specs.)
You know... I'm only going to say this once, until after the iPhone ships. Most of the people complaining about the lack of Flash, don't truly realize what is possible in Safari 3, without Flash at ALL. Safari was the first of the browsers out there to release support for the CANVAS. Because Internet Exploder didn't pick this up (though Firefox and Opera did), not alot was done with the canvas until compatibility work-arounds were worked out. But, if you're an iPhone developer, why should you care that Internet Explorer isn't standards compliant? Dark Forces? Raise you're hand if you're NOT working on the first 3D shoot-em up for the iPhone. I'll give you a link. Here:
RUN THIS URL IN SAFARI
http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/c...e/textures.htm
Note a few things if you will.
#1.) It's NOT FLASH. Got it? Great.
#2.) Smooth animation, huh? Don't try this on IE. It's sloooooow.
#3.) Like the real-time map view in the upper left?
What am I working on? Oh... nothing. Nothing at all. That's it. Anyway... All the complaining just bugs the crap out of me. I'm going to go through these points, but start by saying I have NO sympathy for people making these arguments. I completely see their points, and yet I strongly disagree.
- Web apps require server access via the internet to operate. This is true. It's not the end of the story. I can assure you that a lot of people have Internet access and accomplish things on it everyday. Even these "to go" Internet Service Apps from companies like "Salesforce" need to EVENTUALLY connect to the Internet. Psst. Cookies. That's right, I said it. Personally, I have methods of storing a lot a freaking data in a cookie. You can push it all back up whenever you like if you do it right. Also, you contend that you won't be able to start up an iPhone app without an Internet connection. --Will you EAT YOUR HAT if I can prove to you (post launch, of course) that this will not be the case? I'm not sure if you've experienced this, but Safari can be one of the most ornery browsers when it comes to releasing its cache (just search on "Safari" and "cache". I'll just put that out there and say "headers", for no particular reason.
- NO 3G UTMS/HSDPA. There is no way on Earth we won't hear the primal scream if things are as bad as you say. There are different classes of EDGE devices. Most people don't know this. Most people talking about EDGE speeds have no practical experience or wide-spread sampling data to speak of. It's really a shame. There are EDGE phones out there hauling ass at 200k for people. Worth noting.
- Reduced developer Incentive. I think the question of people who put out things with no business plan is valid, but somewhat silly. Someone somewhere should offer free app hosting. Hm. Sounds like a very good possibility. There is NO reduced developer incentive. NONE. Why? Because nothing has been taken away. No one EVER promised anything! "Reduced". Meh. Trust me, developers can do more selling a SERVICE than a SUPPLY. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. If Apple said that the iPhone wouldn't support secure socket connections or maybe that they'd NOT supported the XML_Reponse object, that would be a REDUCED incentive. This is just finding out the lay of the land... and its mighty fine compared to other phones. Mighty fine. Someone noted that the Nokia ran Webkit too, and that people should also let their apps run without browser sniffing. Personally, I don't care about creating an "experience" that "also" runs on a Nokia, as you'd never really be able to be sure of a screen size on the delivery platform. The iPhone is a clear given, a highly promising community, and a vibrant interface. That's incentive in my book.
- PalmOS, Windows Mobile, Blackberry's OS, Symbian, and nearly every cellphone OS via JAVA can run 3rd-party applications. They can run stuff REALLY BADLY as far as I'm concerned. Crashy, crash, McCrash. This is the first iteration of the iPhone. It's the first cell phone with a full modern feature-complete desktop-class operating system on it. Let Apple work out all the security problems hiding in the corners. They are doing a HELL of a lot for a first release. Palm called them out on it too. Apple needs to make sure this thing works before they make it "open" for everyone in the world to throw stuff on top of it. Crashy McCrash I can do without. Look how fast people were to exploit Safari for Windows. With everything these other "smart" phones can do, its amusing that they're having so many people ignore them in favoring the iPhone. It's possible that user-experience is the true kill app, isn't it?
- IT RUNS OSX Sure does. Free upgrades for the next 2 years at least. Something tells me we'll be a seeing a more coherent strategy with this. Apple is already using Safari and iTunes to seed Bon Jour onto Macs and PCs. It's "discovery" ability will clearly play a huge roll in their wireless plans (notice the patent on iPhone controlling iTunes?) I'd hate to think those plans get "mucked with" by trigger happy developers muscling each other out of the way. Because its REALLY the MacOS, there's a LOT of places Apple likely hasn't properly locked away yet. Impatience is infectuous, and often disasterous in this grand world of the public BETA.
- Multi-touch. I'll say this much. I will be digital "fingerpainting" on my iPhone on launch day. After that, who knows? I might even be finger painting with the separate net-connected iPhone user next to me drawing a moustache on my stick figure man. What will YOU be doing?
- No FLASH support. Awesome. Without Flash support, we get the REAL Internet, not the Flash Internet. This is a plus, not a minus. As I've hinted, you can sure do a lot without Flash holding you back. More over, the "a lot" you can do, is readable by search engines without a lot of backflips and hand-holding. Are we developing apps for iPhone or Adobe? Even the Nokia N95 isn't running "real" Flash, so why be concerned about it? I think the iPhone will play embedded Quicktime. Just my guess, but this will likely be the source of much interest. In the iPod, you could load notes that accessed your media library to playback to you. Crossing my fingers, but I hope iPhone does too. The "NOTES" app is a whole other topic of discussion, as it will support a lot of HTML. Hmmm...
- No self-contained Widgets? - That's a little dissappointing, but who knows. We'll see if aliasing to the startpage is eventually possible... but while somewhat dissappointing, its not the apocalypse people think.
- Cellular data network overwhelmed. - Hm. Hundreds of thousands of zombie phones on a cellular network with lots of multithreaded multitasking processing power and e-mail capabilities. I think its naive to think that's not a potential problem. How do the others do it? By forcing people to write "baby" apps and by taking things really slowly.
- Hackers/Crackers Finally - Yeah. There will be an interesting minority community of people interested in HACKING their phones. Very possible Apple will keep breaking these solutions on a regular basis. I think the war will take interest away from much more interesting things being created by people that have seen the light.
Did anyone see the Lemmings DHTML game? Heh, heh.http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/
Simply brilliant. Now, if only he could start
shaving those pixel dimensions just a bit...
Oh, and everyone... keep this under your hat... here's the super-secret iPhone SDK...
http://script.aculo.us/
Hush, hush on the QT.
The question I have for the above comment is does he actually use these features?
Yeah, he actually uses all of those features. Those were only the things that I've seen him use it for, he does more things with it.
Yes, the 'geeks' here (and I'm one as well) can use these features. But they are a comparatively small market. I say this just based on the 9 of 10 above.
First, I can say honestly that IF the iPhone works as advertised regarding the iPod capabilities, Safari browser, mail and chat clients, I've got something more valuable than any other advanced phone I've played with that's out there now. If it just work. The Web 2.0 is a bonus, which I think is great. When and if the rest follows, great.
Yeah that's true but to me it means the iphone is going to be less revolutionary than some people including me think it could be. The revolutionary part for me was having a desktop on a phone and that's mostly gone now. It's now just a really sophisticated phone. Of course they could change this in future or 3rd party developers might find a way round it.
RUN THIS URL IN SAFARI
http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/c...e/textures.htm
Note a few things if you will.
#1.) It's NOT FLASH. Got it? Great.
#2.) Smooth animation, huh? Don't try this on IE. It's sloooooow.
#3.) Like the real-time map view in the upper left?
That uses one whole CPU of my Core Duo desktop. How fast is the iphone?
Of course 3D java stuff is possible and I presume people can still make applets to run on the iphone. You can do loads of stuff with them. I had to write a raytracer in an applet once so 3d is definitely possible. But these apps still run with the overhead of a full browser on a portable device and there are still a lot of limitations.
They can run stuff REALLY BADLY as far as I'm concerned. Crashy, crash, McCrash.
Not in my experience. My brother and my dad use palmtops - my brother has a pocketpc with GPS and they are pretty stable, despite the multitude of things they do with them.
What will YOU be doing?
Laughing at my 3 (at least) work colleagues who are going to buy one. I might take a Palm with me.
Oh, and everyone... keep this under your hat... here's the super-secret iPhone SDK...
http://script.aculo.us/
Hush, hush on the QT.
That's just a bunch of javascripts to animate websites (including the drawers on Apple's new site). It hardly improves the shortcomings of a web-based SDK.
Yeah that's true but to me it means the iphone is going to be less revolutionary than some people including me think it could be. The revolutionary part for me was having a desktop on a phone and that's mostly gone now. It's now just a really sophisticated phone. Of course they could change this in future or 3rd party developers might find a way round it.
I agree with basically everything you say but I think the 'revolutionary' aspect of the phone is the entire paradigm shift, not an extension of current practices. This involves not just the look and ease of use, which attract the market, but the full OS basis and multitouch, but which will take years to have full impact. As or more important to the 'revolutionary' tagline, the change in the interaction with the carriers, which Apple is clearly changing. This last can be seen in the frustration its creating with those waiting for the phone. They want the information (about plans, signup, etc.) in the same format and way as the past and they aren't getting it. This is also because of a change in paradigm, IMO.
Of course 3D java stuff is possible and I presume people can still make applets to run on the iphone. You can do loads of stuff with them. I had to write a raytracer in an applet once so 3d is definitely possible. But these apps still run with the overhead of a full browser on a portable device and there are still a lot of limitations.
Not to rain and any minor parade here - Don't forget NO JAVA.
Raise you're hand if you're NOT working on the first 3D shoot-em up for the iPhone. I'll give you a link. Here:
RUN THIS URL IN SAFARI
http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/c...e/textures.htm
.
Nice work, now i know more of what these web applications are possible of.
I already have dark forces running on a version of classic not supported because its requirments are so low that it would run on the iPhone. That was my whole idea. I was somehow going to run an apple os on the iPhone, probzbly not the os its self but rather the compnets required for games.
Im pretty sure i wount be able to stream a version of an apple os with dark forces to the iPhone but you never know. Its sort of hard to send 20 floppy disks of information instantly. People have gotten NES games to run on the internet with web 2 and other tools so you never know but i believe its just too much data. The whole idea of using dark forces was that it would be the actual full game running, i never thought that the game wouldnt be stored on the phone.
Its all very upsetting.
Did jobs ever say the iPhone was closed or that they just wouldnt be making a SDK for it?
Frankly there's no way Apple even has their internal development software up to snuff at the moment, and when they do (Christmas, or Spring I imagine as the iPhone goes to Europe, gains 3G, and goes to Asia) then they'll release an SDK?although it might be widget only for the beginning, and expand later.
So I, for one, am certain there is an SDK coming. It just has to wait for a) Apple to actually, you know, have an SDK in complete form, and b) probably software update the iPhone to include sandbox/additional protection for non-Apple apps or b2) require apps to go through Apple and iTunes Store.
I already have dark forces running on a version of classic not supported because its requirments are so low that it would run on the iPhone.
I do not think its reasonable to expect that the phone, no matter WHAT would a.) Run classic Mac apps b.) run existing Mac apps without a recompile (unless Rosetta was ported to ARM) c.) Run a PC emulator like Parallels. d.) Run anything that takes a substantial amount of system resources. It's JUST a phone. It's been clear since the beignning that Apple has set out to "reinvent the phone", not to "repackage the Macintosh" into a small deck of playing cards. People hear different things I guess.
Did jobs ever say the iPhone was closed or that they just wouldnt be making a SDK for it?
No, he didn't. While he sold Web 2.0, he never said never. I don't think ANYONE should hold their breath though. --Especially if you're holding it for running "Mac Classic" apps on your phone. I really think that's unreasonable given the situation. iPhone is a unique platform full of promise, but its not a panacea.
So I, for one, am certain there is an SDK coming. It just has to wait for a) Apple to actually, you know, have an SDK in complete form, and b) probably software update the iPhone to include sandbox/additional protection for non-Apple apps or b2) require apps to go through Apple and iTunes Store.
Holding your breath will turn you blue. That's a pun. Just sayin'.
~ CB
Don't forget NO JAVA.
Hmm, that's another thing the PocketPC and Palms have.
I think the 'revolutionary' aspect of the phone is the entire paradigm shift, not an extension of current practices.
In the smartphone market I guess but when I compare it to a palmtop, I don't see many distinctions besides stylus vs fingers and they go way back to the Newton.
Also touch screens are used quite a lot these days, I see them all the time at checkouts.
Can people write on the iphone btw or is it just a gesture interface?
Hmm, that's another thing the PocketPC and Palms have.
In the smartphone market I guess but when I compare it to a palmtop, I don't see many distinctions besides stylus vs fingers and they go way back to the Newton.
Also touch screens are used quite a lot these days, I see them all the time at checkouts.
Can people write on the iphone btw or is it just a gesture interface?
Not to belabor a point but comparing features is not the shift, is how you use these features and how the interact.
Yeah that's true but to me it means the iphone is going to be less revolutionary than some people including me think it could be. The revolutionary part for me was having a desktop on a phone and that's mostly gone now.
Apple never promised a desktop on a phone. That is your own misguided expectation. Plus Microsoft already made this concept called the UMPC. And it hasn't worked out too well.
Also touch screens are used quite a lot these days, I see them all the time at checkouts.
Comparing the multi-touch UI to a grocery store touchscreen? Are you serious?
Struggling handheld device maker Palm has been hit with layoffs.
The layoffs, which occurred Thursday, affected "a small percentage" of Palm's approximately 1,200 employees and were concentrated in the company's development group, according to a company spokesman. They primarily affect Palm employees in the US, he added.
Palm has seen steady decline in the handheld device market where it leads the market and is in the midst of financial restructuring. Last week, private equity investors Elevation Partners took a 25 per cent stake in Palm, investing $325 million into the struggling smartphone maker.
Also, the integration with Apple TV and the itunes store.
It's almost as "clever" as their commercials comparing an operating system to a computer. "Windows doensn't come with a cool camera." Well, duh!!!
I'm picking up an iphone, but their continued efforts to play off the less intelligent people in this country is a turn off for the rest of us.
What a joke. To characterize a functional web browser as support for third party developers is misleading at best.
It's almost as "clever" as their commercials comparing an operating system to a computer. "Windows doensn't come with a cool camera." Well, duh!!!
Hmmmm. . . . Have you ever seen one of these commercials? They all start with: "Hello, I'm a Mac," "and I'm a PC." They don't say: Hello, I'm a Mac OSX," "and I'm a Windows." PC doesn't come with the camera, I don't remember a mention of Windows.
Not to belabor a point but comparing features is not the shift, is how you use these features and how the interact.
Comparing features is a very valid way to compare products.
Apple is asking us to give up useful features for its own.
.
Some of what Apple has is very good, but what they are asking us to give up is also very good.
In-spite of all of those great, well written, and useful 3rd party apps Palm isn't doing so well.
Struggling handheld device maker Palm has been hit with layoffs.
The layoffs, which occurred Thursday, affected "a small percentage" of Palm's approximately 1,200 employees and were concentrated in the company's development group, according to a company spokesman. They primarily affect Palm employees in the US, he added.
Palm has seen steady decline in the handheld device market where it leads the market and is in the midst of financial restructuring. Last week, private equity investors Elevation Partners took a 25 per cent stake in Palm, investing $325 million into the struggling smartphone maker.
Palm isn't doing well because they are up against two juggernauts, MS and Nokia, with Symbian.
Palm was never big enough to put the money needed into the business when those two gients decided to compete.
Apple now has the money that Palm always lacked.
But, I don't ever remember a review that said that Windows Mobile or CE was ever as good as Palm's products, even when on the same hardware.
As Symbian is mostly in Europe, where Palm never spent as much time, it has easily taken over there.
But, as we all know, the best product doesn't always win.
Hmmmm. . . . Have you ever seen one of these commercials? They all start with: "Hello, I'm a Mac," "and I'm a PC." They don't say: Hello, I'm a Mac OSX," "and I'm a Windows." PC doesn't come with the camera, I don't remember a mention of Windows.
LOL, case in point. Either you're choosing to be argumentative, naive, you're a fanboy, or you're one of the people they pander to. Are you telling me that PCs don't come with a camera? Do PCs ask "Allow or Cancel?". No. The commercial is targeted at Windows vs. Mac. Now quit being silly.
If we refuse to read between the lines the way you selectively choose, a Mac *is* a PC making the commercial ever more ridiculous.