Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.
By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?
Hm... does the fact that they are selling $1100 and up PCs like gangbusters give you a hint?
Apple have a responcibility to thier shareholders to make as much money as possible.
It seesm you are trying to argue that they should not be greedy (i.e. make money) and then on the other hand say the shareholders should question the approach. The shareholders will be very happy with the money Apple are making at the moment.
They are a business and not a charity here to give the rest of us cheap iPhones.
If you can't afford an iPhone and it's service plan then don't buy one, simple.
It's called reification, Parky. Those in power, be it politicians or multinational companies, seek to create an image of permanence, stability and, perhaps most importantly, unalterability.
T-Mobile's service plan is not set in stone, though you've bought into the idea that it is, just like the suckers who bought an iPhone for $600. The fact is, their rates plan in Germany is a rip off; if it can be challenged, even by a self-serving competitor such as Vodafone, so the device can be used with other carrier's SIM cards, then surely that's good for consumers?
Wonderful how companies can engineer public opinion to where the average 'man in the street' accepts their conditions as law.
the only way to buy a sink and faucet is through your water supplier? Or your light bulbs through the power company?
Your analogy does not "hold water", heh heh heh - because the water company, in this case, is selling a sink and faucet in competition with other sinks and faucets that you can also use. The iPhone is not the only phone you can buy, there are plenty of phones that you can use with this or other providers.
Apple is free to change the Mac to only work with AOL, and force its buyers to sign up for a two year AOL contract - that is up to them. The reason that they don't do that is that it would kill their sales - the AT&T/T-Mobile/etc contracts are not killing iPhone sales, so they are free to do it if they like.
Lets face it, United States is light years behind Europe and Japan in the cell phone market. Better phones, more flexible plans, and the best prepaid system I've seen.
You can't compare the 3 areas that easily. They are very different geographically. This affected the way both automobiles and phones were sold. Typically, people in the UK used to, and I guess still do, pay for local calls based on the length of the calls. This was not the case in North America were distances are far greater. The effect was that the transition to cell phones was easier. In my case I still can't bring myself to get a cell phone. I got used to unlimited usage and not having to worry about incoming calls and being charged for answering the phone. Until the cell phone companies change I won't. It seems to me that the wireless companies know they have a cash cow and are milking it for as much as they can. This doesn't mesh well with a phone that also has data transfer capabilities. I really don't think that Europe is a good analogy in this case. I should imagine Japan, where distances are also small, is similar.
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
I am not an apple shareholder, btw - and if Apple's products don't benefit consumers, then consumers will stop consuming. It is a self-reinforcing cycle, and it is the best way for things to work. Apple SHOULD be free to charge whatever they like, and require whatever plan they like with purchase.
Where did you get that from? We're talking abut Germany (and France, the U.K. and the U.S.) Totally bogus statement. How about something (anything) to back that up? There is no "reprehensible greed" here - just idiots like you making up facts to suit an agenda.
Well, I can back up my original claim so ipso facto the idiot in this argument is vous. perhaps you should check whether a poster has backing for their assertions before calling them an idiot next time.
And since we are talking about the introduction of the iPhone in Germany specifically and Europe in general, the prepaid situation in the US is irrelevant to the argument.
"In Europe, the vast majority of mobile subscribers are prepaid users: .....Prepaid accounts for 79% of new users in Europe, and 60% of European users overall"
"Since according to market surveys conducted by the PTT Regulation Authority (RegTP half-yearly report for the first half of 2000) around 80 percent of new customers and around 40 percent of all customers in the mobile phone service are already prepaid"
Note that this information is old and dates to 2000. I think it would be safe to say that with 80% of new phone sales being prepaid and 7 years on from when the data was current, prepaid phones probably predominate in the German market at the present time.
Lets rub it in a bit:
"In comparison, Italy has the highest number of prepaid users with 85 percent of its mobile consumers using prepaid services. The UK comes next with a 68 percent prepaid user base. France, Germany and Sweden all have almost 50 percent prepaid user bases."
Don't you think Apple will change when they see all those contracts waning and they start loosing money? Or, maybe, they will bring back contracts in a big way... The iphone is a market changer.
Apple won't 'loose' money per se, they just won't make as much money as they might have done had they not locked out the pre-paid users.
The iPhone is not that great - IMO - that it will cause a sea change in the European market such that contracts come back into fashion.
Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.
Non shareholders should just STFU. They clearly have no clue, whereas a majority of us understand the master plan. This is a two-year strategy, and no foreign nation (if Steve has anything to say about it) will be dictating a damned thing to him until that two year period has expired. AAPL has doubled over the last year thanks to Steve and crew and their strategy, and GREED IS GOOD. What is bad is when talentless cowards attempt to stigmatize or otherwise criminalize profit and success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?
1. Because they have the best product, period, and we're willing to pay for it
2. Because you have a choice: buy it or DONT buy it, nobody's forcing you
3. Because you have no right to force any private company to sell anything to suit your warped perception of right/wrong/greed/insert-random-demonization-language-here
The Mobile- Operators are the ones that think the world belongs to them ,not apple.
The thing is - without apple interfering , the quality of the service wouldn't be that good.. EVEN if it now IS not good ..it would be even worse . I guess you could imagine , so IMAGINE how MUCH the precious T-Mobile would charge you for nonstop i-net ... video downloads etc.. do you have any idea how much- A FORTUNE .
So instead of blaming Apple guys , who actually CAN deal with such EGO-firms as every single Mobile Operator worldwide is ...do remember all the times ,when you wanted to be able to change something about the Operators but instead you felt so insignificant part of the universe.
have fun !
If your rambling, disjointed and illogical post is an example of 'thinking', I think I would be better off sticking to my current 'non thinking', thank you.
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
And we, the stockholders (aka OWNERS OF THE COMPANY), could also filter out you whiners who have such a phenominally over-inflated sense of entitlement, as if the whole bloody friggin world owes you something.
Get bent, haters, Apple has plenty of choices. People like you call it greed because you can't stand to see anybody else succeed when you know you never will.
Apple won't 'loose' money per se, they just won't make as much money as they might have done had they not locked out the pre-paid users.
The iPhone is not that great - IMO - that it will cause a sea change in the European market such that contracts come back into fashion.
Glad there are people like you who are here to decide whats good for the rest of us.
Wow, without you to define what is and isn't greed and what is or isn't bad for a company, what the heck would we do. Oh, by the way, what did you say your net worth was, and how many international corporations have you launched from a garage?
And we, the stockholders (aka OWNERS OF THE COMPANY), could also filter out you whiners who have such a phenominally over-inflated sense of entitlement, as if the whole bloody friggin world owes you something.
Funny, I get that impression of Apple sometimes too. It's not a one-way street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by echosonic
Oh, by the way, what did you say your net worth was, and how many international corporations have you launched from a garage?
How many international corporations have you launched from a garage? I know I haven't, but I don't think that's a good argument either.
It sounds to me that you're just along for the ride as a stock holder, not having actually done that yourself.
What most of you keep forgetting (save for a select few) is that all your "wisdom" and "smartitude" is worthless with a company like Apple.
You can not, and will not, predict what they will do, unless they allow you to.
Apple does not follow trends, Apple sets them. Apple does not look at the marketplace and ask how it can conform to the status quo, Apple steps past it, and others follow.
As its been said before, Apple's iPhone is already changing the game. The rules are being re-written, get with the program or get out.
I have no problem with Apple making money on the phone itself, that's fine, because it's their product, but it's not Apple that provides the service. If Apple wanted money for both, they should have set up an MVNO.
That depends on the way Apple updates the software on the phone. I don't know of any other phone where the entire OS is updated with more features. Its possible Apple may provide more services through the provider in the future.
Quote:
I think the tie-in is a retarded business model. I'm sure all of those tie-ins could be done under the banner of "controlling the experience".
You may be right. But that is the beauty of the market system. If people don't buy it then Apple will adjust. OTOH Apple has a plan for the future of the phone, we just don't know what that plan is right now. As it unfolds what Apple has done should make more sense.
It's stupid that some consumers think manufacturers (and their owners, the risk-taking stockholders who invest in them) should be required by law to limit their profits, while the consumer should be free to buy only a subset of the products and services of interest to them ... and at discounted pricing.
It's kind of two-faced to demand you be entitled to all the products & services that only emerge in a "free market" but then try to impose regulatory limits on the profitability of the manufacturer because his price doesn't mesh with your financial reality.
If it wasn't for "greedy" corporations like Apple, you wouldn't have an iPhone forum to bitch at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
And you can mosey over to VistaDoesn'tSuck.com if you truly don't want to read the posts of us nasty, money-grubbing, capitalist Apple shareholders.
Comments
Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.
By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?
Hm... does the fact that they are selling $1100 and up PCs like gangbusters give you a hint?
Apple have a responcibility to thier shareholders to make as much money as possible.
It seesm you are trying to argue that they should not be greedy (i.e. make money) and then on the other hand say the shareholders should question the approach. The shareholders will be very happy with the money Apple are making at the moment.
They are a business and not a charity here to give the rest of us cheap iPhones.
If you can't afford an iPhone and it's service plan then don't buy one, simple.
It's called reification, Parky. Those in power, be it politicians or multinational companies, seek to create an image of permanence, stability and, perhaps most importantly, unalterability.
T-Mobile's service plan is not set in stone, though you've bought into the idea that it is, just like the suckers who bought an iPhone for $600. The fact is, their rates plan in Germany is a rip off; if it can be challenged, even by a self-serving competitor such as Vodafone, so the device can be used with other carrier's SIM cards, then surely that's good for consumers?
Wonderful how companies can engineer public opinion to where the average 'man in the street' accepts their conditions as law.
the only way to buy a sink and faucet is through your water supplier? Or your light bulbs through the power company?
Your analogy does not "hold water", heh heh heh - because the water company, in this case, is selling a sink and faucet in competition with other sinks and faucets that you can also use. The iPhone is not the only phone you can buy, there are plenty of phones that you can use with this or other providers.
Apple is free to change the Mac to only work with AOL, and force its buyers to sign up for a two year AOL contract - that is up to them. The reason that they don't do that is that it would kill their sales - the AT&T/T-Mobile/etc contracts are not killing iPhone sales, so they are free to do it if they like.
Lets face it, United States is light years behind Europe and Japan in the cell phone market. Better phones, more flexible plans, and the best prepaid system I've seen.
You can't compare the 3 areas that easily. They are very different geographically. This affected the way both automobiles and phones were sold. Typically, people in the UK used to, and I guess still do, pay for local calls based on the length of the calls. This was not the case in North America were distances are far greater. The effect was that the transition to cell phones was easier. In my case I still can't bring myself to get a cell phone. I got used to unlimited usage and not having to worry about incoming calls and being charged for answering the phone. Until the cell phone companies change I won't. It seems to me that the wireless companies know they have a cash cow and are milking it for as much as they can. This doesn't mesh well with a phone that also has data transfer capabilities. I really don't think that Europe is a good analogy in this case. I should imagine Japan, where distances are also small, is similar.
philip
I think the tie-in is a retarded business model.
And that is why you aren't the head of a huge, multinational company making big waves in all areas that you enter.
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
I am not an apple shareholder, btw - and if Apple's products don't benefit consumers, then consumers will stop consuming. It is a self-reinforcing cycle, and it is the best way for things to work. Apple SHOULD be free to charge whatever they like, and require whatever plan they like with purchase.
Where did you get that from? We're talking abut Germany (and France, the U.K. and the U.S.) Totally bogus statement. How about something (anything) to back that up? There is no "reprehensible greed" here - just idiots like you making up facts to suit an agenda.
Well, I can back up my original claim so ipso facto the idiot in this argument is vous. perhaps you should check whether a poster has backing for their assertions before calling them an idiot next time.
And since we are talking about the introduction of the iPhone in Germany specifically and Europe in general, the prepaid situation in the US is irrelevant to the argument.
"In Europe, the vast majority of mobile subscribers are prepaid users: .....Prepaid accounts for 79% of new users in Europe, and 60% of European users overall"
http://www.callcentermagazine.com/ar...M20010822S0007
For Germany in particular:
"Since according to market surveys conducted by the PTT Regulation Authority (RegTP half-yearly report for the first half of 2000) around 80 percent of new customers and around 40 percent of all customers in the mobile phone service are already prepaid"
http://tinyurl.com/27uyo5
Note that this information is old and dates to 2000. I think it would be safe to say that with 80% of new phone sales being prepaid and 7 years on from when the data was current, prepaid phones probably predominate in the German market at the present time.
Lets rub it in a bit:
"In comparison, Italy has the highest number of prepaid users with 85 percent of its mobile consumers using prepaid services. The UK comes next with a 68 percent prepaid user base. France, Germany and Sweden all have almost 50 percent prepaid user bases."
http://www.mobilemonday.net/news/us-...ion-is-booming
This article was dated 2001 so that near 50% would now almost certainly be well over that now.
And in case anyone thinks Italy doesn't matter, it's population is about the same as the UK.
It's nice that a company like Vodaphone can use the law to try to harm another company, rather than just try to compete.
Right, it's about time the rest of the world learned the destructive 'business' practices that make the US so great.
Don't you think Apple will change when they see all those contracts waning and they start loosing money? Or, maybe, they will bring back contracts in a big way... The iphone is a market changer.
Apple won't 'loose' money per se, they just won't make as much money as they might have done had they not locked out the pre-paid users.
The iPhone is not that great - IMO - that it will cause a sea change in the European market such that contracts come back into fashion.
Right, it's about time the rest of the world learned the destructive 'business' practices that make the US so great.
What is the Euro -> $ exchange rate again? ;-)
Nice to see Apples reprehensible greed being given the short shrift it deserves. Apple shareholders should seriously question Apples marketing strategy in Europe.
Non shareholders should just STFU. They clearly have no clue, whereas a majority of us understand the master plan. This is a two-year strategy, and no foreign nation (if Steve has anything to say about it) will be dictating a damned thing to him until that two year period has expired. AAPL has doubled over the last year thanks to Steve and crew and their strategy, and GREED IS GOOD. What is bad is when talentless cowards attempt to stigmatize or otherwise criminalize profit and success.
By far the largest segment of the market is pre-paid. Contracts are on the wane. Why on earth does Apple think it can maximise profits by catering to the smallest market segment which is shrinking?
1. Because they have the best product, period, and we're willing to pay for it
2. Because you have a choice: buy it or DONT buy it, nobody's forcing you
3. Because you have no right to force any private company to sell anything to suit your warped perception of right/wrong/greed/insert-random-demonization-language-here
And that is why you aren't the head of a huge, multinational company making big waves in all areas that you enter.
That's absurd. Do you fit that description?
Man you really have to start thinking !
The Mobile- Operators are the ones that think the world belongs to them ,not apple.
The thing is - without apple interfering , the quality of the service wouldn't be that good.. EVEN if it now IS not good ..it would be even worse . I guess you could imagine , so IMAGINE how MUCH the precious T-Mobile would charge you for nonstop i-net ... video downloads etc.. do you have any idea how much- A FORTUNE .
So instead of blaming Apple guys , who actually CAN deal with such EGO-firms as every single Mobile Operator worldwide is ...do remember all the times ,when you wanted to be able to change something about the Operators but instead you felt so insignificant part of the universe.
have fun !
If your rambling, disjointed and illogical post is an example of 'thinking', I think I would be better off sticking to my current 'non thinking', thank you.
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
And we, the stockholders (aka OWNERS OF THE COMPANY), could also filter out you whiners who have such a phenominally over-inflated sense of entitlement, as if the whole bloody friggin world owes you something.
Get bent, haters, Apple has plenty of choices. People like you call it greed because you can't stand to see anybody else succeed when you know you never will.
Apple won't 'loose' money per se, they just won't make as much money as they might have done had they not locked out the pre-paid users.
The iPhone is not that great - IMO - that it will cause a sea change in the European market such that contracts come back into fashion.
Glad there are people like you who are here to decide whats good for the rest of us.
Wow, without you to define what is and isn't greed and what is or isn't bad for a company, what the heck would we do. Oh, by the way, what did you say your net worth was, and how many international corporations have you launched from a garage?
And we, the stockholders (aka OWNERS OF THE COMPANY), could also filter out you whiners who have such a phenominally over-inflated sense of entitlement, as if the whole bloody friggin world owes you something.
Funny, I get that impression of Apple sometimes too. It's not a one-way street.
Oh, by the way, what did you say your net worth was, and how many international corporations have you launched from a garage?
How many international corporations have you launched from a garage? I know I haven't, but I don't think that's a good argument either.
It sounds to me that you're just along for the ride as a stock holder, not having actually done that yourself.
You can not, and will not, predict what they will do, unless they allow you to.
Apple does not follow trends, Apple sets them. Apple does not look at the marketplace and ask how it can conform to the status quo, Apple steps past it, and others follow.
As its been said before, Apple's iPhone is already changing the game. The rules are being re-written, get with the program or get out.
I have no problem with Apple making money on the phone itself, that's fine, because it's their product, but it's not Apple that provides the service. If Apple wanted money for both, they should have set up an MVNO.
That depends on the way Apple updates the software on the phone. I don't know of any other phone where the entire OS is updated with more features. Its possible Apple may provide more services through the provider in the future.
I think the tie-in is a retarded business model. I'm sure all of those tie-ins could be done under the banner of "controlling the experience".
You may be right. But that is the beauty of the market system. If people don't buy it then Apple will adjust. OTOH Apple has a plan for the future of the phone, we just don't know what that plan is right now. As it unfolds what Apple has done should make more sense.
It's stupid that some consumers think manufacturers (and their owners, the risk-taking stockholders who invest in them) should be required by law to limit their profits, while the consumer should be free to buy only a subset of the products and services of interest to them ... and at discounted pricing.
It's kind of two-faced to demand you be entitled to all the products & services that only emerge in a "free market" but then try to impose regulatory limits on the profitability of the manufacturer because his price doesn't mesh with your financial reality.
If it wasn't for "greedy" corporations like Apple, you wouldn't have an iPhone forum to bitch at.
I wish this site offered a way to filter out peoples' posts in these threads. Then I could filter out all the Apple shareholders who feel the need to come to this site and argue how lack of choice and corporate greed are somehow a benefit to consumers.
And you can mosey over to VistaDoesn'tSuck.com if you truly don't want to read the posts of us nasty, money-grubbing, capitalist Apple shareholders.