[quote]Unfortunately, with the Internet in particular, having something like this "fixed in a future version" isn't good enough. This is kind of one of those things where you really need to get it right the first time. A new version may fix it, but how long until everyone manages to adopt that new version?<hr></blockquote>Can we at least remember that Safari is a beta release. And downloading a couple of megs in nothing compared to downloading the bloat required of IE6 and Netscape 7.
from Hyatts weblog:
[quote]Various members of the Flash community have been reporting low frame rates when using Flash in Safari. I'm pleased to report that we have corrected the problem. The issue was not in WebCore, so I can't post a patch, but the issue has been addressed.<hr></blockquote>
The funny thing is this has been a problem since Flash 4. Macromedia just refuses to acknowledge that the flash plugin and player have any problems.
All they did was port the classic version over to Mac OS X (thus the same problems) instead of taking the time to do a re-write. There have also been false accusations that Apple is at fault for this (bad plugin architeture. sure!), but Quicktime and many other plugins seem to run fine under OS X. What makes Flash any different? I've spoken with some Macromedia reps who just won't believe there are any problems with the Mac Flash player/plugin. I've even given them examples with source code (the company I used to do freelance for had a very tight relationship with Macromedia and Adobe). It is really sad how Macromedia has looked down on the Mac in recent years.
I seriously encourage people to sign this petition. I'm surprised it wasn't created a long time ago. I only hope Macromedia comes to its senses and does the right thing. Time will only tell.
<strong>Unfortunately, with the Internet in particular, having something like this "fixed in a future version" isn't good enough. This is kind of one of those things where you really need to get it right the first time. A new version may fix it, but how long until everyone manages to adopt that new version?
You're only as strong as the weakest member <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually it is good enough as the current version of Safari has an expiration date in June sometime so people will be forced to update to the final version.
I was really trying to make a point about things like this in general. Safari may fix it, but what about the people using Mozilla? IE? OmniWeb? And think of all of the versions of those browsers.
[quote] You're only as strong as the weakest member <hr></blockquote> That is the most pessimistic thing I've ever heard!
Mind you is is quite hard to be optimistic, I accept that Safari is only a beta and we can't expect perfection, but MM not taking advantage of Quartz is just a waste. Think of the Mac-only flash features we could be missing! Motion blur on tweens would be nice.
But, I'm afraid it gets worse, just look at Java applets in Safari, this next update better fix that.
And what he hell is this all about? if you've got nothing better to do and are willing to take a risk: <a href="http://www.sodaplay.com"; target="_blank">www.sodaplay.com</a> (get ready to force quit!)
I don't think we would want Flash to have any 'Mac only' features. That would kind of defeat the purpose of being able to deploy flash content across platforms. Perhaps you're talking of a way to speed it up on the mac utilizing mac specific technologies. Not to be picky about the terminology, but that's more of an enhancement, and in this case, an important distinction to make
And while that comment might be pessimistic, it is also realistic. When you're designing for compatibility, you design for the weakest link. To ignore the issues of widespread compatibility is to severely limit your audience in appreciating your content
<strong>I was really trying to make a point about things like this in general. Safari may fix it, but what about the people using Mozilla? IE? OmniWeb? And think of all of the versions of those browsers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Apple can get Flash to work great in Safari (at least according to Hyatt) then why can the companies that make the other browsers not get it to work great in theirs? If it turns out to be true that Apple has it working great in Safari the finger needs to be pointed at Microsoft/Mozilla Team/Omnigroup and less at Apple/Macromedia.
Yeah, I just wanted another feature as an excuse to give two fingers to the windows users who claim that macs go wrong all the time and are difficult to use.
But the playback issue isn't a web browser thing, it's like it in the StandAlone player and the Player built in to Flash, But now I look, it is alot better than in Mac OS 9.
How does it run? Well? Thought so. The more one understands Flash and uses it...the better the content and it's delivery.
I have an iMac G3 700, 768 MB RAM, OS X Jaguar + 56KB Modem and most Flash and Java work and run great in IE. Mozilla too. Safari needs LOTS of work done. I really hope that these issues will be resolved. Because right now Safari sucks.
Shockwave sucks too. I have an old Life Savers Pool game in shockwave that I have on my hardrive and linked into my browsers to play. It runs great in IE, little less in Mozilla and snail_on_quaaludes in Safari.
I'm at work on Windows 98, DSL and so-so new Gateway PC...that flash site loaded and played as smooth as butter...just like it does in IE on OS X.
<a href="http://www.mozillazine.org/weblogs/hyatt/archives/2003_01.html"; target="_blank">Various members of the Flash community have been reporting low frame rates when using Flash in Safari. I'm pleased to report that we have corrected the problem. The issue was not in WebCore, so I can't post a patch, but the issue has been addressed.</a>
Dave Hyatt's blog, January 8th, 4:31 pm
Frankly, it seems that more professional and polished flash sites work fairly well (not great), and a few of the smaller Flash sites people have directed me to are dog-slow for whatever reason.
Various members of the Flash community have been reporting low frame rates when using Flash in Safari. I'm pleased to report that we have corrected the problem. The issue was not in WebCore, so I can't post a patch, but the issue has been addressed.
Dave Hyatt's blog, January 8th, 4:31 pm<hr></blockquote>
yeah, we've seen various people quote that statement already, so? that statement was made before the update to safari - so why wasn't it adressed then?
[quote]Frankly, it seems that more professional and polished flash sites work fairly well (not great), and a few of the smaller Flash sites people have directed me to are dog-slow for whatever reason.<hr></blockquote>
well, if you don't know the reason, then it's pretty stupid of you to go around insinuating that it's because they are less professional than others.
I think the point he is getting at is that the "less professional" flash sites are sower because their authors don't have a lot of experience with Flash. This means that they're probably building their SWFs in a rather inefficient way, and they take a performance hit for it.
I've seen some Flash source that is just waaay out there in terms of doing things efficiently. The more experience you get with the ware, the better you get at building things.
Unfortunately, we notice the inefficiency through speed hits because Flash runs slower on a Mac. Most of those authors are probably authoring in Windows, and since Flash runs better on Windows, they don't notice it.
Well, I'm taking Hyatt at his word that it couldn't be simply fixed and patched in a beta revision. It's beta, and my expectations are as such. Feel free to ask him why it wasn't in v51.
My point about the "pro" sites isn't about anyone being more or less professional, just that the commercial sites have more refined Flash because, well, the Flash code is probably more refined, had more time and effort spent on them to be refined. I just mean that hobbyists don't have the time to work over their Flash stuff like someone making a living with it.
well, seeing as there are so many high-end flash-experts around here, i thought to myself, i better just shut up and let the pros do the talking ...
then again, when i encounter phenomena like the particular slow flash playback in safari i tend to try to find out what exactly is happening. so i put together a few files to monitor the actual playback speed (thanx to colin mook and his fps speedometer). each file says what framerate it was set to, and underneath that shows the framerate it is actually playing back at. i think you'll find it quite interesting to compare the result in safari with some other browser.
i also think you will now understand that the reason why some sites seem slower than others in safari doesn't really have anything to do with *pro quality efficiency* (not that such things aren't important -> just not in this case) ...
<strong>i also think you will now understand that the reason why some sites seem slower than others in safari doesn't really have anything to do with *pro quality efficiency* (not that such things aren't important -> just not in this case) ...
Well, don't write-off the fact that "pro quality efficiency" (you should pursue a career in marketing )still doesn't play a part based on your tests. I think your tests show that it plays a part, but not as big as some would argue.
There are multiple reasons for the 'slowness', as opposed to one singular reason.
[quote]There are multiple reasons for the 'slowness', as opposed to one singular reason.<hr></blockquote>
hey, i do flash design for a living (well, at least part of my living ) so i am well aware of the general problems concerning flash play-back-speeds.
i have even managed to find fairly decent workarounds for the mac-specific problems (flash5 was especially bad in this respect - but at least flash6 brought some improvements, although it isn't as widespread yet...).
however, the speed issue in safari really is something else. the test files i put up are about as non-demanding as you can get and the *readings* that i get tell me that safari (in this version) displays flash content at a pretty much fixed rate of 10 frames per second. therefore, flash content that is set to say 15 fps will appear *ok* in safari. however, content that is published at 50 fps will appear *dog-slow* (as BuonRotto put it) - even if it is perfectly coded.
on another note, i found it kind of strange that jobs would present safari at mwsf and specifically mention how well it plays flash content ... you gotta admit that they should have known about this problem ...
Does anyone else have problems creating flash content on a Mac? I'm using Flash MX and very simple creations just bomb out. I once heard that the Mac version has trouble with bitmaps, is this the case?
For a start I have never succeeded in getting a progress bar and a command to play when the entire movie is loaded to work once it is viewed over the internet.
Other movies just dissappear once they've loaded. and have no contextual menu, I think I've got around that one now though.
However this might just be to do with the fact that I'm not an expert at Flash, does anyone know anything about courses or workshops that I might be able to afford, where i can learn about design tips and, graphics sweetening etc.
Here is my website (I havent registered a decent URL yet) <a href="http://www.the-brices.demon.co.uk"; target="_blank">www.the-brices.demon.co.uk</a> and I'm going to trust you with the source, <a href="http://www.the-brices.demon.co.uk/webspace/xfluida.fla"; target="_blank">www.the-brices.demon.co.uk/webspace/xfluida.fla</a> for all you people who are better flash designers than me, if you could look at it and tell me if I'm doing anything wrong (and don't tell me that it's too high, or there's nothing on it, i'm working on those)
Comments
from Hyatts weblog:
[quote]Various members of the Flash community have been reporting low frame rates when using Flash in Safari. I'm pleased to report that we have corrected the problem. The issue was not in WebCore, so I can't post a patch, but the issue has been addressed.<hr></blockquote>
[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
All they did was port the classic version over to Mac OS X (thus the same problems) instead of taking the time to do a re-write. There have also been false accusations that Apple is at fault for this (bad plugin architeture. sure!), but Quicktime and many other plugins seem to run fine under OS X. What makes Flash any different? I've spoken with some Macromedia reps who just won't believe there are any problems with the Mac Flash player/plugin. I've even given them examples with source code (the company I used to do freelance for had a very tight relationship with Macromedia and Adobe). It is really sad how Macromedia has looked down on the Mac in recent years.
I seriously encourage people to sign this petition. I'm surprised it wasn't created a long time ago. I only hope Macromedia comes to its senses and does the right thing. Time will only tell.
<strong>Unfortunately, with the Internet in particular, having something like this "fixed in a future version" isn't good enough. This is kind of one of those things where you really need to get it right the first time. A new version may fix it, but how long until everyone manages to adopt that new version?
You're only as strong as the weakest member <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually it is good enough as the current version of Safari has an expiration date in June sometime so people will be forced to update to the final version.
Daniel
Mind you is is quite hard to be optimistic, I accept that Safari is only a beta and we can't expect perfection, but MM not taking advantage of Quartz is just a waste. Think of the Mac-only flash features we could be missing! Motion blur on tweens would be nice.
But, I'm afraid it gets worse, just look at Java applets in Safari, this next update better fix that.
And what he hell is this all about? if you've got nothing better to do and are willing to take a risk: <a href="http://www.sodaplay.com"; target="_blank">www.sodaplay.com</a> (get ready to force quit!)
Andrew
And while that comment might be pessimistic, it is also realistic. When you're designing for compatibility, you design for the weakest link. To ignore the issues of widespread compatibility is to severely limit your audience in appreciating your content
<strong>I was really trying to make a point about things like this in general. Safari may fix it, but what about the people using Mozilla? IE? OmniWeb? And think of all of the versions of those browsers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Apple can get Flash to work great in Safari (at least according to Hyatt) then why can the companies that make the other browsers not get it to work great in theirs? If it turns out to be true that Apple has it working great in Safari the finger needs to be pointed at Microsoft/Mozilla Team/Omnigroup and less at Apple/Macromedia.
Daniel
But the playback issue isn't a web browser thing, it's like it in the StandAlone player and the Player built in to Flash, But now I look, it is alot better than in Mac OS 9.
Andrew
but as a flash designer i have seen flash playback speeds on os9 outperform osx ...
<a href="http://www.yulia-nau.de/splash.htm"; target="_blank">Yulia Nau web site...</a>
How does it run? Well? Thought so. The more one understands Flash and uses it...the better the content and it's delivery.
I have an iMac G3 700, 768 MB RAM, OS X Jaguar + 56KB Modem and most Flash and Java work and run great in IE. Mozilla too. Safari needs LOTS of work done. I really hope that these issues will be resolved. Because right now Safari sucks.
Shockwave sucks too. I have an old Life Savers Pool game in shockwave that I have on my hardrive and linked into my browsers to play. It runs great in IE, little less in Mozilla and snail_on_quaaludes in Safari.
I'm at work on Windows 98, DSL and so-so new Gateway PC...that flash site loaded and played as smooth as butter...just like it does in IE on OS X.
<a href="http://www.mozillazine.org/weblogs/hyatt/archives/2003_01.html"; target="_blank">Various members of the Flash community have been reporting low frame rates when using Flash in Safari. I'm pleased to report that we have corrected the problem. The issue was not in WebCore, so I can't post a patch, but the issue has been addressed.</a>
Dave Hyatt's blog, January 8th, 4:31 pm
Frankly, it seems that more professional and polished flash sites work fairly well (not great), and a few of the smaller Flash sites people have directed me to are dog-slow for whatever reason.
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
Various members of the Flash community have been reporting low frame rates when using Flash in Safari. I'm pleased to report that we have corrected the problem. The issue was not in WebCore, so I can't post a patch, but the issue has been addressed.
Dave Hyatt's blog, January 8th, 4:31 pm<hr></blockquote>
yeah, we've seen various people quote that statement already, so? that statement was made before the update to safari - so why wasn't it adressed then?
[quote]Frankly, it seems that more professional and polished flash sites work fairly well (not great), and a few of the smaller Flash sites people have directed me to are dog-slow for whatever reason.<hr></blockquote>
well, if you don't know the reason, then it's pretty stupid of you to go around insinuating that it's because they are less professional than others.
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: bryan.fury ]</p>
I've seen some Flash source that is just waaay out there in terms of doing things efficiently. The more experience you get with the ware, the better you get at building things.
Unfortunately, we notice the inefficiency through speed hits because Flash runs slower on a Mac. Most of those authors are probably authoring in Windows, and since Flash runs better on Windows, they don't notice it.
My point about the "pro" sites isn't about anyone being more or less professional, just that the commercial sites have more refined Flash because, well, the Flash code is probably more refined, had more time and effort spent on them to be refined. I just mean that hobbyists don't have the time to work over their Flash stuff like someone making a living with it.
then again, when i encounter phenomena like the particular slow flash playback in safari i tend to try to find out what exactly is happening. so i put together a few files to monitor the actual playback speed (thanx to colin mook and his fps speedometer). each file says what framerate it was set to, and underneath that shows the framerate it is actually playing back at. i think you'll find it quite interesting to compare the result in safari with some other browser.
<a href="http://www.unknownpleasures.com/ai/fps12.swf"; target="_blank">12fps</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownpleasures.com/ai/fps20.swf"; target="_blank">20fps</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownpleasures.com/ai/fps30.swf"; target="_blank">30fps</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownpleasures.com/ai/fps60.swf"; target="_blank">60 fps</a>
i also think you will now understand that the reason why some sites seem slower than others in safari doesn't really have anything to do with *pro quality efficiency* (not that such things aren't important -> just not in this case) ...
[ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: bryan.fury ]</p>
<strong>i also think you will now understand that the reason why some sites seem slower than others in safari doesn't really have anything to do with *pro quality efficiency* (not that such things aren't important -> just not in this case) ...
[ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: bryan.fury ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, don't write-off the fact that "pro quality efficiency" (you should pursue a career in marketing
There are multiple reasons for the 'slowness', as opposed to one singular reason.
hey, i do flash design for a living (well, at least part of my living
i have even managed to find fairly decent workarounds for the mac-specific problems (flash5 was especially bad in this respect - but at least flash6 brought some improvements, although it isn't as widespread yet...).
however, the speed issue in safari really is something else. the test files i put up are about as non-demanding as you can get and the *readings* that i get tell me that safari (in this version) displays flash content at a pretty much fixed rate of 10 frames per second. therefore, flash content that is set to say 15 fps will appear *ok* in safari. however, content that is published at 50 fps will appear *dog-slow* (as BuonRotto put it) - even if it is perfectly coded.
on another note, i found it kind of strange that jobs would present safari at mwsf and specifically mention how well it plays flash content ... you gotta admit that they should have known about this problem ...
but, hey, whatever, who cares, oh well
[ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: bryan.fury ]</p>
For a start I have never succeeded in getting a progress bar and a command to play when the entire movie is loaded to work once it is viewed over the internet.
Other movies just dissappear once they've loaded. and have no contextual menu, I think I've got around that one now though.
However this might just be to do with the fact that I'm not an expert at Flash, does anyone know anything about courses or workshops that I might be able to afford, where i can learn about design tips and, graphics sweetening etc.
Here is my website (I havent registered a decent URL yet) <a href="http://www.the-brices.demon.co.uk"; target="_blank">www.the-brices.demon.co.uk</a> and I'm going to trust you with the source, <a href="http://www.the-brices.demon.co.uk/webspace/xfluida.fla"; target="_blank">www.the-brices.demon.co.uk/webspace/xfluida.fla</a> for all you people who are better flash designers than me, if you could look at it and tell me if I'm doing anything wrong (and don't tell me that it's too high, or there's nothing on it, i'm working on those)
Andrew