WTF happened to our OS?

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  • Reply 101 of 129
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    They couldn't just make some system level tweaks. That's what Copeland was.
  • Reply 102 of 129
    spookyspooky Posts: 504member
    [quote]Originally posted by peve:

    <strong>&gt;Ah - the power of illusion. Open up your System Suitcase in ResEdit and tell me you're free to play with the system.



    and why would you what to play with your systemfolder?



    &gt;So if Apple simply made the /System folder visible but unreadable to the standard user, you would have the feeling of being as much in control as under 9?



    the standard user is not entended to edit the systemfolder in macos x! if some root-user whats/needs to do this - ok!



    i think most problems in mac os 9.x and older are user-made. if it's running - why change it?

    most people still think: "it's got to be complicated if it's a computer" and "i have to kill this and edit that". i'm working with mac's since macos 7 and i came to the conclusion that there is no need to alter system-stuff (unless your life gets boring - or you what to be a window-user)



    only mho</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I have no probs with the Unix side being there as so many people here claim its for the tech heads or system users anyway. So why not remake the system so that it works like the old programmers switch? In other words make Unix unavailable in any way unless you push that switch. Then we would see whether or not ordinary users would ever need to see the ugly side of X.

    Up until X I have never read a single piece of text on Mac OS - it was totally transparent. X is not.



    Why would I fuss with the system folder? Well. when a single item is corrupt I can just go in, see by its name and icon what it does and replace or remove it. I can manage my prefs and fonts with drag and drop. I can play with startup and shut down items and put scripts where I need them. I can prune it when required to make sure it doesn't get bloated. there are so many things I do with my system folder that makes my mac run the way I need it to whenever I need it to.



    On the resedit thing, Why not make X that way? So that Unix was invisible unless you had a Xedit or something?



    It seems bizarre to me that as Xp moves further and further away from its lame history, X is going the other way. I mean, what the hell are those bizarre and windows like names in the system folder? Is this mac like? In my experience, if users can see what's in the system, tell at a glance what the file does then they will leave it alone if they think it is important or useful.



    What are the tradeoffs? is X faster - no. Is it easier to use - No. Does it crash as often as 9 - No.



    One out of 3. Christ after a year it still drags just using the finder. Why must I put things in specific places that may or may not suit me?



    X will be ready when the Unix aspect of it is never needed (unless you want to run unix CLi stuff). Until then it is NOT Mac OSX it is Unix.
  • Reply 103 of 129
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    [quote]Originally posted by bryan fury:

    <strong>personally . x has pushed me more and more towards a pc . after using macs since 91 - i was very happy with 7/8/9 - if apple had added a few system level tweaks id have been ecstatic



    but no , they threw the baby out with the bathwater



    x is to me , unfathomable and i have decided that if ive got to learn a new os i may as well go the whole hog and get a pc..



    is xp that bad ?



    it looks like a rip off of 9 - ok by me.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Famous last words.



    Get a PC Bryan...you'll soon learn why comments like the above are foolish. Whether OSX is new or not the attention to detail that Apple puts in their OS's are unequaled. OSX will continue to get better...more refined and faster. Apple GETS IT! Lest I sound like some PC Bigot I've built 2 Pentium based systems in the last 2 years and I run Win2k on both and they do nothing but solidy my preference for Macs. It's cool to have both actually but my "creative" apps are always run on the Macs.
  • Reply 104 of 129
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    It does seem that in general, a lot of Classic Mac OS users do a lot of tweaking in their system folders, and they miss it a lot too in OS X. Most of these users are concerned about bloat and wasting disk space more than anything. A lot still think they have to manage their extensions and delete extra 4k files tucked in the system. They're neat freaks after having to be like this for so long. But ideally, none of this should be desired or necessary. IMO, unless you go out of your way to set up an account with access to all this stuff (and the ability to manipulate it at your own risk), you shouldn't have to see this stuff at all. Ideally, the most Mac-like thing to do would be to make system maintenance and tweaking unneccesary in the first place. Obviously, OS X has a ways to go in that regard, but I feel it is heading in that direction.
  • Reply 105 of 129
    gambitgambit Posts: 475member
    I wish someone would point me to a forum where I don't have to hear ignorant people whining about subjects they don't know about and don't care enough about to learn. Anybody know where one can find a place like that, a place free of stupid people making the same stupid invalid arguments? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />





    edit: not being a jerk. I REALLY mean what I said.



    [ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</p>
  • Reply 106 of 129
    murbotmurbot Posts: 5,262member
    You're right there - if that's what you really want, you are SERIOUSLY in the wrong place.



    I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions for you though...



    [quote]Here's something I can guarantee for you, if you're a serious Illustrator user, you will be slapping back into MacOS 9 quicker than you can say "the kerning don't work". :-)<hr></blockquote>



    Have to disagree with you there - I know a few Illustrator users who are more than happy with Illustrator in OSX. Take pscates for example - I don't think I've heard someone gush over how much they love working in X more than he does... and he is one hell of a serious Illustrator user.



    &lt;edit&gt;Sorry, you maybe don't know who that is, being new here... he's a long time AI member...I'm sure he'll show up in here soon. &lt;/edit&gt;



    [ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
  • Reply 107 of 129
    I just want to say that i still dont use keyboard shortcuts in windblowz after 2 years of being a (forced) user. Thats cuz they are so difficult.

    I still count the days until i can go back home every once in a random weekend to fool around with my moms imac. Im gathering money, and soon i will by my first mac with my own money(my parents bought my computers before)! The problem that im facing is two fold.

    1-Will i be able to access the all-windows network here at school without network admins noticing the difference(i'm attending the United States Military Academy, so you can imagine the trouble i would get into if i were caught) and access my exmail account when jaguar is released?

    2-they are installing wireless networking in the barracks for the incoming class, because they are being issued Dell laptops. Should i also get a powerbook, or get a high-end powermac when the G5 comes out? im gonna be waiting at least till the end of the summer and maybe even till next year to get my new computer, so im pretty sure my options will be either a next-gen. desktop or behind-the-powercurve Ti book.

    What should i do? Price really is not a consideration, i plan on buying very high end.
  • Reply 108 of 129
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    [quote]Originally posted by bryan fury:

    <strong>personally . x has pushed me more and more towards a pc . after using macs since 91 - i was very happy with 7/8/9 - if apple had added a few system level tweaks id have been ecstatic



    but no , they threw the baby out with the bathwater



    x is to me , unfathomable and i have decided that if ive got to learn a new os i may as well go the whole hog and get a pc..



    is xp that bad ?



    it looks like a rip off of 9 - ok by me.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    My friend, who has been a Mac user for years, said he also has a machine running XP and he actually likes it. He also said he still likes Macs better, though. Go to a CompUSA and play around with a demo first, before you decide............................
  • Reply 109 of 129
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    [quote]Originally posted by Gambit:

    <strong>I wish someone would point me to a forum where I don't have to hear ignorant people whining about subjects they don't know about and don't care enough about to learn. Anybody know where one can find a place like that, a place free of stupid people making the same stupid invalid arguments? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />





    edit: not being a jerk. I REALLY mean what I said.



    [ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You know, I've been thinking the same thing myself for the past few days.
  • Reply 110 of 129
    aslanaslan Posts: 97member
    [quote]Anybody know where one can find a place like that, a place free of stupid people making the same stupid invalid arguments?<hr></blockquote>



    Well, don't run for Congress....



    I feel your pain, man... People would rather b|tch than go to Winblows and leave us in peace.... S'Ok...they'd probably come back on here and b|tch about XP to "people who really care". sheesh...



    [ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Aslan ]</p>
  • Reply 111 of 129
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    [quote]Originally posted by Gambit:

    <strong>I wish someone would point me to a forum where I don't have to hear ignorant people whining about subjects they don't know about and don't care enough about to learn. Anybody know where one can find a place like that, a place free of stupid people making the same stupid invalid arguments? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />





    edit: not being a jerk. I REALLY mean what I said.



    [ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yes, its called 'Gambits Forum', where everyone has to think the same, Apple can do no wrong, and anyone with dissenting opinions will be banned. I believe you could get at least 10 members to join from this forum.



    Guys and gals, this isn't Apples's Cult Forum, its a forum to discuss everything, including those opinions you may not agree with..........................
  • Reply 112 of 129
    bartobarto Posts: 2,246member
    OS X is hard to use. not impossible hard, but it's not easy. to me that doesn't matter all that much, i'm used to windows, but what about all the old school mac folks?



    Have you used Mac OS X much? After using Mac OS X for 6 months, Mac OS 9's GUI seems very difficult to use. An "Apple Menu" and seperate windows for folders in a spatially orientated OS? WTF were they thinking?



    like partitioning your drive into different areas for the different OS'es, that's a joke! you shouldn't have to have a partition for OSX and another for OS 9 just to get things to work right.



    Thats funny, I never had to do that (when I still had Mac OS 9 installed).



    and i have been less than impressed with the number of drivers for Mac hardware that support OS X too. this didn't bother me before because OS 9 was the shipping OS.



    It is a problem, but less and less of a problem every day. It isn't like no new hardware has been added to the X supported list since March 24th 2001. Right now, the only thing I can't use is my Canon scanner (not having PS 7).



    dunno, just seems like i was walking down a dim hallway, and suddenly a light goes on and i realize this isn't my wonderful mac hallway, this is some bastardized Unix hallway.



    WTF do people have against Unix? The fact is, in Jaguar even the bloody KERNEL PANIC is a GUI. Yes, the GUI is different than Mac OS 9, but it makes more sense to me.



    yeah it's cool and all, but wtf ever happened to "drag the photoshop folder to the applications folder, there it's installed"



    It's really personal opinion on which is best, package installs or drag-and-drop installs.



    now i've got hidden files everywhere that show up in OS 9, stupid permissions to deal with on everything. ****ty *** heirarchy that files default into.



    Agreed, it would be nice if OS 9 was updated to support UNIX hidden files.



    What do you have against permissions? A root user controls the important system files to stop people accidentally screwing up, administrators control less-important system files when applications or system wide visualizers, screen savers, fonts etc need to be added, and everyone has there own private home folder. It Just Makes Sense?



    What do you mean by the "****ty *** heirarchy"?



    is it ever going to be as nice as OS9? i mean, just give me 9 with protected memory and i'd have been happy....



    I like it more than Mac OS 9, and you know perfectly well that it would have taken major hackage to get protected memory in Mac OS 9.



    Back when Apple switched to PowerPC, they were making 2 OSs. A/UX unix, and Mac OS 7. A/UX was kinda like Windows 95, it ran Mac OS 7 applications (which ran with unprotected memory and co-operative multitasking bring down the system), UNIX Xserver Applications and hybrid applications with Mac OS 7 front ends and UNIX back ends (which ran with protected memory and pre-emptive multitasking).



    Apple could have chosen to port A/UX (and call it Mac OS UX or something) instead of Mac OS 7 to the powerpc, but they didn't, and now we have to live with that.



    Barto



    EDIT: To all the "can't access the system folder" weenies: Log in as root (see why permissions are a good thing?). Now you can **** the system up just as in Mac OS 9.



    [ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Barto ]</p>
  • Reply 113 of 129
    My biggest beef by far with OS X is permissions. I understand what they do and why they're there, but they're really not necessary on a single user system. I've managed for many years without them under OS 5-9 and didn't "screw things up." I don't need to protect my machine from myself. Entering my password to install software seems klunky at best, and being unable to uninstall .kexts without using "sudo" commands is freakin' ridiculous. So much for the vaunted Macintosh "drag and drop."



    I understand that most UNIXes are fundamentally multiuser systems, but you pay a high price in complexity for little gain on a single user system.



    Apple really needs to find an elegant solution so that permissions can be easily set for those who need them (multiuser systems) and make them completely transparent on single user systems.



    [ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Bozo the Clown ]</p>
  • Reply 114 of 129
    gambitgambit Posts: 475member
    Bozo: agreed. Permissions in OS X are off, at best right now. But I have Jaguar, and Jaguar fixes a lot of these issues in Get Info panel. No more chown in the Terminal (for all of you who don't want or like to do so).



    As far as the idea of Gambit's Forum..... heh. That's a good idea. However, you seem to have misunderstood what I meant. It's not about 'Apple can do no wrong', it's not about 'thinking the same'...... it's about posting well written opinions about subjects people know instead of spouting the usual, and unfortunately, typical FUD that we've been hearing about for months. For instance, there's nothing in MacOS X that can't be done using a GUI, yet people STILL complain that it's Unix-based. Explain that to me. There's no need to muss with the System Folder of OS X yet people STILL want to do it. Explain why these people can't understand that this behavior was necessary under 9, and not necessary under X? These same users speak about the 'ugly side of X' yet they want to manage the system as they did in 9? What's ugly about letting the OS make its own decisions? To me that's beautiful! The OS does it's thing without OS 9 type user interventions and it keeps itself running perfect. How is that difficult?



    Talk about making Unix invisible....... how is it NOT invisible? Because we use dot-three extensions now? Because the Finder is slower than you'd like it to be? Just because there's access to a command line doesn't mean you have to use it!



    I'll stop now, but the point is: these arguments would be better if they were thought about first, and I tell ya what: they'd be better because they wouldn't have come out in the first place. The arguments don't make sense and I think most of the more enlightened here are just ignoring them now, but I still needed to vent.



    (By the way, the only ones this post will offend are the morons who want X to be 9.)



    (No offense on that 'morons' comment.)
  • Reply 115 of 129
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    [quote]Originally posted by Bozo the Clown:

    <strong>My biggest beef by far with OS X is permissions.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It's most frustrating for an admin user who should have a little more leeway on what he or she can actually admin. I don't mean fudging with the System folder, but sometimes doing stuff in the Apps folder can be SNAFU. If Apple can resolve/fix that, I think the single user concerns will be cleared up.



    There are some fairly advanced things that you have to do right now via the CLI (aka, unix), but Jaguar adds some of that stuff to the GUI. And the rest? Well, these are advanced features, those who use them I would imagine are advanced enough to use the CLI.
  • Reply 116 of 129
    pevepeve Posts: 518member
    [quote]Originally posted by Gambit:

    <strong>(...)

    Talk about making Unix invisible....... how is it NOT invisible? Because we use dot-three extensions now? Because the Finder is slower than you'd like it to be? Just because there's access to a command line doesn't mean you have to use it!(...)

    The arguments don't make sense and I think most of the more enlightened here are just ignoring them now, but I still needed to vent.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    thanx gambit.

    my words.

    your statement was, what i could not get right with my crappy english.
  • Reply 117 of 129
    [quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:

    <strong>



    It's most frustrating for an admin user who should have a little more leeway on what he or she can actually admin. I don't mean fudging with the System folder, but sometimes doing stuff in the Apps folder can be SNAFU. If Apple can resolve/fix that, I think the single user concerns will be cleared up.



    There are some fairly advanced things that you have to do right now via the CLI (aka, unix), but Jaguar adds some of that stuff to the GUI. And the rest? Well, these are advanced features, those who use them I would imagine are advanced enough to use the CLI.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Giving the Admin the power to add/delete things like .kexts would do the trick for me. Please don't say that it isn't necessary to mess with these things. Even simple devices, like my Card Reader requires a .kext. I shouldn't have to worry about keeping the installer around so I can uninstall if need be. This also should not be difficult for Apple to implement.



    I agree that keeping vital system resources off limits is not a bad idea, but you should have the power to remove drivers easily with resorting to booting into OS 9, using root commands, or messing with uninstallers.
  • Reply 118 of 129
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I forgot about that stuff. In a perfect world, I don't know if this is possible, but I would like to see that Admin users can manipulate the Library folder, but not have control over the System folder. Ideally, nothing extra should be added to the System folder by third parties or even by Apple's non-system apps, leaving it stable, lean and mean. All that stuff would go into the /Library directory where it would be available and leave the basic system safe.
  • Reply 119 of 129
    gambitgambit Posts: 475member
    [quote]Originally posted by Bozo the Clown:

    <strong>I agree that keeping vital system resources off limits is not a bad idea, but you should have the power to remove drivers easily with resorting to booting into OS 9, using root commands, or messing with uninstallers.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    But BTC, a kernal extension IS a vital system resource and you REALLY shouldn't be messing with them. Just because 'kernal extension' has the word 'extension' in it, doesn't mean it's an extension in the OS 9 sense of the word. You're getting your OSes mixed up here. There's a reason Apple has made in hard to access these 'extensions' and it's not because they want you messing with them.



    Anyways, what's wrong with uninstallers? OS 9 needed them for some programs, too, you know.



    Edit: by the by, I work in Cambridge.



    [ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</p>
  • Reply 120 of 129
    [quote]Originally posted by Gambit:

    <strong>





    But BTC, a kernal extension IS a vital system resource and you REALLY shouldn't be messing with them. Just because 'kernal extension' has the word 'extension' in it, doesn't mean it's an extension in the OS 9 sense of the word. You're getting your OSes mixed up here. There's a reason Apple has made in hard to access these 'extensions' and it's not because they want you messing with them.



    Anyways, what's wrong with uninstallers? OS 9 needed them for some programs, too, you know.



    Edit: by the by, I work in Cambridge.



    [ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I realize that extensions and .kexts are different, but there are some similarities, esp. in that some third party hardware requires .kexts to run. That being the case, it only makes sense that installing and uninstalling 3rd party stuff should be easy.



    Maybe my beef with unintstallers is just personal preference, but it seems a more complicated way to complete what is a simple operation. I feel I shouldn't have to run a program to move an item to the trash. It's not the end of the world, but it's not particularly user friendly, i.e. I have to do things the way the computer wants rather than a more intuitive way. Isn't that what using a Mac is all about? I don't particularly like OS 9 programs that require uninstallers, either. This isn't meant to be an "OS X SUCKS" rant.



    It seems like there should be a more elegant solution. Not all .kexts are required by system. Maybe keep .kexts that are required for basic operation separate from third party ones?



    [ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Bozo the Clown ]</p>
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