Wasn't Tim's statement a response to a question asked about the Pre? I don't see how that's an extrapolation unless you're saying that Tim Cook wasn't answering the question that was asked.
no, it was a question about the smartphone market as a whole.
his comments really shouldn't be a shock. it's just an extension of the company's vows and actions to protect all their patents and IP. prime example, the whole Psystar sitch
When Jobs announced the iPhone, he stated that they had patented over 200 items related to it and probably a few more since. These could cover many aspects of the iPhone, from the multi-touch tech including screen to the App Store and also include those obtained by purchasing other companies. Its quite likely that Apple can find at least 1 of these to go after Palm on if it so chooses. Also, as someone pointed out, multi-touch as a concept has been around for ages, but if Apple created a specific gesture for a specific purpose it might have patents on those specific gestures and uses.
Palm seem to be marketing the Pre against the iPhone the same as every MP3 player was marketed against the iPod: extra features, for slightly less $! That didn't work because most consumers (note this doesn't include us tech guys who read blogs like this 1) don't care about that when they get a device. They just want something thats really cool and that works. It also helps with the iTunes ecosystem and that most iPhone owners have had an iPod and therefore know what to expect from an iPhone. The Pre is pretty much starting a fresh for most people.
On top of that, Palm is so far in debt that the Pre needs to sell faster or at a similar rate to the iPhone in order to save them. Unless they sell it for a stupidly low price, probably at a loss, I think it will fail at this because of the iPhone/iPod bubble and the current economy. And because of that, Palm can't afford to defend a large scale legal battle with Apple, let alone initiate its own. If they lost, its game over and the companies dead!
The Appstore is booming, 500M apps in just over 6 months is insane and the Pre (and Android for that matter) just can't compete with that kind of success. With the Pre, Palm are going to use what are essentially Web Apps, which is 1 of the reasons devs complained about the original iPhone, therefore it won't have many decent apps. And because of that, there's absolutely no point to multi-tasking on the Pre. I mean, if there's no decent apps to run, its completely useless!
No, he made a statement about defending IP's. Someone asked if that meant the Palm Pre, and he responded "It's a general statement."
Actually, the original question was about the Pre and what the competition meant to Apple. Thats when Tim went off on the 'defending it's IP' rant. Look at the transcript.
Just buy out the company ($822M market cap) with that pool of cash($28.1B) you have sitting there, take whatever is usable, and give a good scolding to all former employees.
That is probably the best reply I have ever seen on this forum!
This is ridiculous. Palm's Pre is Linux. Apple's iPhone is MacOS. There's no code in common between the two, and Palm was doing some aspects of the iPhone's UI -- such as the four fixed icons across the bottom of the phone -- a decade before the iPhone. They're different products and the only thing "stolen" is in the fertile imagination of people who would rather have lawyers, rather than the marketplace, determine who wins.
F**k the lawyers. Let the two products duke it out head to head in the marketplace and may the better phone win.
China was selling illegal copies of the iphone way before it was available in China and other parts of Asia , also ipod copies still on sale.
I think that they , Apple should be able to do this but should also look at the other copies.
Just look at Sanrio , hello kitty , here we have Japan thinking about what goods it could market globally to get it's economy going. To late there are so many hello kitty copies from china already on the market . They are dead in the water.
Apple spends the time and R&D only to find little known manufacturers trying to steel it all. Selling at a third of the price for the copied product, consumers no longer care they have fewer dollars to spend so they go for the copied product.
Well... When you talk about China its gonna not be easy.
One thing is going after a company locally or internationally and other is against a country. China laws allow copy, rip, etc etc of other technologies while they let their own companies grow and make profits.
I can assure you that Apple or any other company don't have the means to go against China Laws. Google ring a bell?
I keep hearing people say this, but I've never heard anyone back it up.
How are webapps, which also run on the iPhone "beating" the iPhone? How is inbox integration or IM integration, a big competitive deal when it can be imitated on the iPhone by Apple in an afternoon's coding and already is on the iPhone in the form of some third party apps?
I think the pre is the first serious challenger to iPhone, but to imply that it "beats" iPhone as many are doing is a bit disingenuous IMO. It's not even out of beta for cripes sake, and no one has really even used it yet.
I do do, best challenge to iphone, and at $119, posted that at apple forums asking did you see the GPS tbt features and what happened to tom tom plug in? The post lasted 10 minutes before it was deleted.
Apple right now has to deal with:
a) Palm Pre - best iphone competition ever
b) windows 7, it runs fast on slow machines, 10 fold better than present incarnation of vista and still almost a year from coming out...
Personally, as an IT in Apple space, am hoping Apple hits a HR with Snow.
Actually they have a lot of common code between the two. UNIX, webkit, HTML/CSS/javascript. But none of that is the problem.
I doubt Apple can stop anyone from using gesture based multi-touch. What Apple can argue is copying the exact same gestures used on the iPhone. It is important for Apple to protect these patents. If they don't it opens the door for anyone to copy Apple's gesture based ideas and strategies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badtux
This is ridiculous. Palm's Pre is Linux. Apple's iPhone is MacOS. There's no code in common between the two, and Palm was doing some aspects of the iPhone's UI -- such as the four fixed icons across the bottom of the phone -- a decade before the iPhone. They're different products and the only thing "stolen" is in the fertile imagination of people who would rather have lawyers, rather than the marketplace, determine who wins.
I don't understand how this sentence describes how the Pre is better than the iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac
I do do, best challenge to iphone, and at $119, posted that at apple forums asking did you see the GPS tbt features and what happened to tom tom plug in? The post lasted 10 minutes before it was deleted.
I'm curious about this too. I don't debate the idea, I just want some data on the areas that people feel that the Pre bests Apple.
PS: I'm glad to see Palm moving away from WinMo-based devices and having a product that is exciting for what it is. I figured bedding with MS would be the death of them, but I hope they rise again.
The simple fact that it can run apps in the background is a best in the Pre dept. I own an iphone and the number one thing I don't like about it is the fact I have to stop listening to Pandora to check an email or SMS that has just come in. Well, next to copya nd paste of course Does the Pre have that?
I do do, best challenge to iphone, and at $119, posted that at apple forums asking did you see the GPS tbt features and what happened to tom tom plug in? The post lasted 10 minutes before it was deleted.
Apple right now has to deal with:
a) Palm Pre - best iphone competition ever
b) windows 7, it runs fast on slow machines, 10 fold better than present incarnation of vista and still almost a year from coming out...
Personally, as an IT in Apple space, am hoping Apple hits a HR with Snow.
No offence if English is not your first language but I can barely even understand this post.
The parts I can understand are also quite wrong.
Windows 7 certainly does not run "10 times faster than Vista" or anything even remotely close to that. On the same hardware it's only ever so slightly faster and it runs reasonably well on the lower end hardware that Vista can't even load on. It's still quite a bit slower than XP also.
Also, I do not believe for a single second that you are "an IT" in Apple space, outer space, or any other kind of space.
... I doubt Apple can stop anyone from using gesture based multi-touch. What Apple can argue is copying the exact same gestures used on the iPhone. It is important for Apple to protect these patents. If they don't it opens the door for anyone to copy Apple's gesture based ideas and strategies.
I think it's also important to note that we will all lose out if Apple isn't capable of protecting these ideas.
If other competitors start using multi-touch gestures, but assigning different functions to them, then the whole concept of a "standard dictionary of gestures" (that's pretty much needed to advance the platform), is in jeopardy.
Apple is introducing gestures gradually, adding new ones as we get used to the old, and making sure everything is logical and simple as things move forward. If Microsoft, Palm and everyone else jumps in the pool and starts making multi-touch stuff willy-nilly, with various different implementations of gestures and so forth, it will just slow everything down and spread a lot of confusion.
Kind of similar to the 1990's "fights" over mouse button assignment and whether one, two or three buttons should be the standard. Come to think of it, was that ever resolved?
Their's an old adage, you don't get something for nothing.
From what we've seen demonstrated. The reason the Pre can run apps in the background is because the apps it uses are primarily front end UI for internet services. SDK allows apps to be built from HTML/CSS/javascript. Which makes apps that are light weight for the phone but are also not as powerful. Pre developers won't be able to build the same types of apps that can be built for the iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02
The simple fact that it can run apps in the background is a best in the Pre dept. I own an iphone and the number one thing I don't like about it is the fact I have to stop listening to Pandora to check an email or SMS that has just come in. Well, next to copya nd paste of course Does the Pre have that?
Actually I think if Apple was concerned about this being a problem they would encourage competitors to use their standard gestures. If Apple does sue for using its gestures then it will force others to implement different gestures and the confusion you speak of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2
Apple is introducing gestures gradually, adding new ones as we get used to the old, and making sure everything is logical and simple as things move forward. If Microsoft, Palm and everyone else jumps in the pool and starts making multi-touch stuff willy-nilly, with various different implementations of gestures and so forth, it will just slow everything down and spread a lot of confusion.
I don't think its fully understood that finger gesture based multi-touch is IP that Apple bought when it acquired FingerWorks. webOS clearly copies the iPhone's gesture based UI.
The question is whether Apple can patent the entire concept of swiping/flicking/pinching/double tapping finger based gestures. If Apple does defend these gestures, how would Palm have a valid patent on the same concept.
That would be the point. And Apple will only be able to defend the technology specific to their implentation of multitouch "multi-touch" as they call it.
As to whether Apple will be able to patent the entire concept of multi point swiping,flicking,pinching,tapping and etc.......that remains to be seen.
your whole business is based on ripping off the Newton. While Apple was the real creative force in PDA's, you managed to start your theft when more miniaturized components became available.
Luckily for you, Apple had gotten out of the PDA business and was down on its luck when you had your meteoric rise with your shrunken Newton clones.
Now that Apple is succeeding with the iPhone, don't expect them to sit idly by while you rip them off again.
It is always interesting to see many members of this forum pillory people or corporations that file claims against Apple for allegedly stealing their IP, for whatever reason, and yet fail to call out Apple when it files claims against other people or corporations that are allegedly stealing its IP.
It also interesting that many members frequently attack software patents held by other companies for specific ways of manipulating data, while I have yet to see any member attack Apple for essentially patenting the common hand gesture known as the "pinch".
Just a thought.
Don't you know how it works round here yet?
1 - Apple is King, Steve Jobs is God. Whatever Apple do is right.
2 - Anyone else who makes any product that Apple makes is on the dark side and are all evil.
3 - Apple can patent any silly idea and it is "progressive thinking" and "breaking boundaries"
4 - Anybody else patents things and it is stupid and the patent process needs overhauling etc...
5 - Anyone sues Apple they are just a bunch of thieves.
6 - Apple sues anyone and they are just protecting their IP.
Got it now? Follow these simple rules and you will be fine round here.
It seems frakked-up absurd that gestures can be protected, but it's possible. Many years ago, Palm had to change its graphiti system after losing a lawsuit.
Comments
Wasn't Tim's statement a response to a question asked about the Pre? I don't see how that's an extrapolation unless you're saying that Tim Cook wasn't answering the question that was asked.
no, it was a question about the smartphone market as a whole.
his comments really shouldn't be a shock. it's just an extension of the company's vows and actions to protect all their patents and IP. prime example, the whole Psystar sitch
Palm seem to be marketing the Pre against the iPhone the same as every MP3 player was marketed against the iPod: extra features, for slightly less $! That didn't work because most consumers (note this doesn't include us tech guys who read blogs like this 1) don't care about that when they get a device. They just want something thats really cool and that works. It also helps with the iTunes ecosystem and that most iPhone owners have had an iPod and therefore know what to expect from an iPhone. The Pre is pretty much starting a fresh for most people.
On top of that, Palm is so far in debt that the Pre needs to sell faster or at a similar rate to the iPhone in order to save them. Unless they sell it for a stupidly low price, probably at a loss, I think it will fail at this because of the iPhone/iPod bubble and the current economy. And because of that, Palm can't afford to defend a large scale legal battle with Apple, let alone initiate its own. If they lost, its game over and the companies dead!
The Appstore is booming, 500M apps in just over 6 months is insane and the Pre (and Android for that matter) just can't compete with that kind of success. With the Pre, Palm are going to use what are essentially Web Apps, which is 1 of the reasons devs complained about the original iPhone, therefore it won't have many decent apps. And because of that, there's absolutely no point to multi-tasking on the Pre. I mean, if there's no decent apps to run, its completely useless!
No, he made a statement about defending IP's. Someone asked if that meant the Palm Pre, and he responded "It's a general statement."
Actually, the original question was about the Pre and what the competition meant to Apple. Thats when Tim went off on the 'defending it's IP' rant. Look at the transcript.
Palm seems a little paranoid though...
Just buy out the company ($822M market cap) with that pool of cash($28.1B) you have sitting there, take whatever is usable, and give a good scolding to all former employees.
That is probably the best reply I have ever seen on this forum!
F**k the lawyers. Let the two products duke it out head to head in the marketplace and may the better phone win.
China was selling illegal copies of the iphone way before it was available in China and other parts of Asia , also ipod copies still on sale.
I think that they , Apple should be able to do this but should also look at the other copies.
Just look at Sanrio , hello kitty , here we have Japan thinking about what goods it could market globally to get it's economy going. To late there are so many hello kitty copies from china already on the market . They are dead in the water.
Apple spends the time and R&D only to find little known manufacturers trying to steel it all. Selling at a third of the price for the copied product, consumers no longer care they have fewer dollars to spend so they go for the copied product.
Well... When you talk about China its gonna not be easy.
One thing is going after a company locally or internationally and other is against a country. China laws allow copy, rip, etc etc of other technologies while they let their own companies grow and make profits.
I can assure you that Apple or any other company don't have the means to go against China Laws. Google ring a bell?
I keep hearing people say this, but I've never heard anyone back it up.
How are webapps, which also run on the iPhone "beating" the iPhone? How is inbox integration or IM integration, a big competitive deal when it can be imitated on the iPhone by Apple in an afternoon's coding and already is on the iPhone in the form of some third party apps?
I think the pre is the first serious challenger to iPhone, but to imply that it "beats" iPhone as many are doing is a bit disingenuous IMO. It's not even out of beta for cripes sake, and no one has really even used it yet.
I do do, best challenge to iphone, and at $119, posted that at apple forums asking did you see the GPS tbt features and what happened to tom tom plug in? The post lasted 10 minutes before it was deleted.
Apple right now has to deal with:
a) Palm Pre - best iphone competition ever
b) windows 7, it runs fast on slow machines, 10 fold better than present incarnation of vista and still almost a year from coming out...
Personally, as an IT in Apple space, am hoping Apple hits a HR with Snow.
I doubt Apple can stop anyone from using gesture based multi-touch. What Apple can argue is copying the exact same gestures used on the iPhone. It is important for Apple to protect these patents. If they don't it opens the door for anyone to copy Apple's gesture based ideas and strategies.
This is ridiculous. Palm's Pre is Linux. Apple's iPhone is MacOS. There's no code in common between the two, and Palm was doing some aspects of the iPhone's UI -- such as the four fixed icons across the bottom of the phone -- a decade before the iPhone. They're different products and the only thing "stolen" is in the fertile imagination of people who would rather have lawyers, rather than the marketplace, determine who wins.
I do do, best challenge to iphone, and at $119, posted that at apple forums asking did you see the GPS tbt features and what happened to tom tom plug in? The post lasted 10 minutes before it was deleted.
I'm curious about this too. I don't debate the idea, I just want some data on the areas that people feel that the Pre bests Apple.
PS: I'm glad to see Palm moving away from WinMo-based devices and having a product that is exciting for what it is. I figured bedding with MS would be the death of them, but I hope they rise again.
The simple fact that it can run apps in the background is a best in the Pre dept. I own an iphone and the number one thing I don't like about it is the fact I have to stop listening to Pandora to check an email or SMS that has just come in. Well, next to copya nd paste of course
I do do, best challenge to iphone, and at $119, posted that at apple forums asking did you see the GPS tbt features and what happened to tom tom plug in? The post lasted 10 minutes before it was deleted.
Apple right now has to deal with:
a) Palm Pre - best iphone competition ever
b) windows 7, it runs fast on slow machines, 10 fold better than present incarnation of vista and still almost a year from coming out...
Personally, as an IT in Apple space, am hoping Apple hits a HR with Snow.
No offence if English is not your first language but I can barely even understand this post.
The parts I can understand are also quite wrong.
Windows 7 certainly does not run "10 times faster than Vista" or anything even remotely close to that. On the same hardware it's only ever so slightly faster and it runs reasonably well on the lower end hardware that Vista can't even load on. It's still quite a bit slower than XP also.
Also, I do not believe for a single second that you are "an IT" in Apple space, outer space, or any other kind of space.
... I doubt Apple can stop anyone from using gesture based multi-touch. What Apple can argue is copying the exact same gestures used on the iPhone. It is important for Apple to protect these patents. If they don't it opens the door for anyone to copy Apple's gesture based ideas and strategies.
I think it's also important to note that we will all lose out if Apple isn't capable of protecting these ideas.
If other competitors start using multi-touch gestures, but assigning different functions to them, then the whole concept of a "standard dictionary of gestures" (that's pretty much needed to advance the platform), is in jeopardy.
Apple is introducing gestures gradually, adding new ones as we get used to the old, and making sure everything is logical and simple as things move forward. If Microsoft, Palm and everyone else jumps in the pool and starts making multi-touch stuff willy-nilly, with various different implementations of gestures and so forth, it will just slow everything down and spread a lot of confusion.
Kind of similar to the 1990's "fights" over mouse button assignment and whether one, two or three buttons should be the standard. Come to think of it, was that ever resolved?
From what we've seen demonstrated. The reason the Pre can run apps in the background is because the apps it uses are primarily front end UI for internet services. SDK allows apps to be built from HTML/CSS/javascript. Which makes apps that are light weight for the phone but are also not as powerful. Pre developers won't be able to build the same types of apps that can be built for the iPhone.
The simple fact that it can run apps in the background is a best in the Pre dept. I own an iphone and the number one thing I don't like about it is the fact I have to stop listening to Pandora to check an email or SMS that has just come in. Well, next to copya nd paste of course
Apple is introducing gestures gradually, adding new ones as we get used to the old, and making sure everything is logical and simple as things move forward. If Microsoft, Palm and everyone else jumps in the pool and starts making multi-touch stuff willy-nilly, with various different implementations of gestures and so forth, it will just slow everything down and spread a lot of confusion.
I don't think its fully understood that finger gesture based multi-touch is IP that Apple bought when it acquired FingerWorks. webOS clearly copies the iPhone's gesture based UI.
The question is whether Apple can patent the entire concept of swiping/flicking/pinching/double tapping finger based gestures. If Apple does defend these gestures, how would Palm have a valid patent on the same concept.
That would be the point. And Apple will only be able to defend the technology specific to their implentation of multitouch "multi-touch" as they call it.
As to whether Apple will be able to patent the entire concept of multi point swiping,flicking,pinching,tapping and etc.......that remains to be seen.
I sincerely doubt they will be able to.
Luckily for you, Apple had gotten out of the PDA business and was down on its luck when you had your meteoric rise with your shrunken Newton clones.
Now that Apple is succeeding with the iPhone, don't expect them to sit idly by while you rip them off again.
It is always interesting to see many members of this forum pillory people or corporations that file claims against Apple for allegedly stealing their IP, for whatever reason, and yet fail to call out Apple when it files claims against other people or corporations that are allegedly stealing its IP.
It also interesting that many members frequently attack software patents held by other companies for specific ways of manipulating data, while I have yet to see any member attack Apple for essentially patenting the common hand gesture known as the "pinch".
Just a thought.
Don't you know how it works round here yet?
1 - Apple is King, Steve Jobs is God. Whatever Apple do is right.
2 - Anyone else who makes any product that Apple makes is on the dark side and are all evil.
3 - Apple can patent any silly idea and it is "progressive thinking" and "breaking boundaries"
4 - Anybody else patents things and it is stupid and the patent process needs overhauling etc...
5 - Anyone sues Apple they are just a bunch of thieves.
6 - Apple sues anyone and they are just protecting their IP.
Got it now? Follow these simple rules and you will be fine round here.