This isn't true people do complain about Apple's lawsuits against other companies. Look at the threads about Psystar. You will see plenty of people complaining that Apple should allow another company to sell computers with OS X installed.
Its not as simple as Apple patenting the pinch itself. Its about Apple using its resources to develop a new user interface language and a competitor comes along and just copies Apple's work. The Pre is free to use the pinch, just not the same way the iPhone uses it.
I'm divided on the issue. Palm will not survive without the Pre. In one way I would prefer if Apple left them along and just competed against them. But on the other hand if Apple does not protect its ideas, that will leave them vulnerable to being copied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaselva
It also interesting that many members frequently attack software patents held by other companies for specific ways of manipulating data, while I have yet to see any member attack Apple for essentially patenting the common hand gesture known as the "pinch".
"It seems that Apple could win patent claims where they are directed toward a touchscreen user device," says Chad Peterman, an expert on patent and antitrust litigation and an attorney at Patterson Belknap Webb and Tyler. While a gesture like "the pinch" in and of itself is not patentable, if you connect that motion to a specific function on a popular device, it is possible to argue that other devices using the same technique are infringing, Peterman says.
"Multitouch may not be new, but "using the pinching motion where the zoom is relative to the space between the users fingers … meets the base requirement for patentability," according to Peterman.
"Multitouch may not be new, but "using the pinching motion where the zoom is relative to the space between the users fingers ? meets the base requirement for patentability," according to Peterman.
Actually I think if Apple was concerned about this being a problem they would encourage competitors to use their standard gestures. If Apple does sue for using its gestures then it will force others to implement different gestures and the confusion you speak of.
One possible result, if Apple were to win such a lawsuit, would be for the loser company
to license (for big bucks) the use of the patents in question. Then the user would not have
to invent new gestures and the patents would still be protected. (Plus Apple could get
b) windows 7, it runs fast on slow machines, 10 fold better than present incarnation of vista and still almost a year from coming out...
Personally, as an IT in Apple space, am hoping Apple hits a HR with Snow.
Actually, they don't have to deal with any right now since non of these two products are released yet! By the time these two officially released we will probably see Snow Leopard and new iPhone. We have no idea what the next iPhone will be like and have little information about Snow Leopard. So let's talk when they are officially released
Given MS history, the will probably mess up Windows 7 by the time they release it later this year.
Palm's OS isn't the issue or its hardware. Its the offshore tech support!
If Palm continues their third rate lousy tech support they can have the best phone in town and I would throw them out like I did two brand NEW Treo 750's. My neighbor dumped six different Palm units before switching!
Keep up the bad tech support, Palm, and your development team could be just turning out lemons.
The Pre maybe the closest in terms of functionality to the iPhone on the Sprint network. Apple's problem is its dependence on AT and T. If sprint were to offer a decent even if inferior alternative at a lower plan cost, Apple will suffer. Apple still has >3 yrs on that AT and T contract.
The webOS user interface has the iPhone beat in many areas but Palm doesn't have the integrated ecosystem that Apple does with OS X, notebooks, iPods, iTunes, AppStore etc. Maybe Apple should consider buying them, it might be less expensive than fighting it out in court.
Honestly... enlighten me on how you know an unreleased OS on an unreleased product has an existing real-world product beat? Are you some insider that has actual real-world experience or are you just pulling something un-lubed out of your backside?
I'll believe you can predict the next super-lotto numbers before I (or anyone else) believe you on this.
Without competition the world will not be what it is, let the competitors compete and we end up with better products but don't fault the maker when you buy a lemon.
1 - Apple is King, Steve Jobs is God. Whatever Apple do is right.
2 - Anyone else who makes any product that Apple makes is on the dark side and are all evil.
3 - Apple can patent any silly idea and it is "progressive thinking" and "breaking boundaries"
4 - Anybody else patents things and it is stupid and the patent process needs overhauling etc...
5 - Anyone sues Apple they are just a bunch of thieves.
6 - Apple sues anyone and they are just protecting their IP.
Got it now? Follow these simple rules and you will be fine round here.
7- I like to spend my time on the internet having conversations with people I think are contemptible fools. Because I find it to be a very productive use of my time.
Glad to see Palm is still swinging. I thought they were goners with Blackberry eating their corporate lunches.
All this means is that we consumers have better choices of phones. If it bests the iPhone 3G then great! Apple doesn't own every cool idea and needs competition to make them do better.
It really will depend on 1) how Palm implements it's multi-touch, and 2) what gestures it uses. If Palm is using the same gestures, it will likely be in trouble. Further, Apple acquired a lot of multi-touch patents from Fingerworks.
Finally, if this does to Court it will not look good for Palm that much of it's team has first hand inside knowledge of Apple's IP. I mean, the guy developing the Palm is the same guy who headed up the iPhone. That will be problematic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut
The only thing Apple might have them on is the similar multitouch. What people do not understand is that Apple is just running one implementation of multitouch which happens to be named "multi-touch".
I wish they would fight it out so that the public would learn more about that group of technologies. And it wouldn't just be Apple vs Palm. It will be Apple vs Palm's financial backers.
The mental stroking I see here among iPhone lovers are incredible. The Pre is not targeting the iPhone, it is targeting a space above the iPhone. The Cook IP talk is all lawyer-speak. Palm's Pre is not in any serious infringement territory (yes, this is assessment is part of my current job responsibility).
iPhone is a best-in-class consumer media device. However it is at best, a below average business phone. The Treo, which is generations older than the iPhone, is a superior business device RIGHT NOW. A business phone must be a user-friendly phone (have a 30 min concall without the face accidentally touching the screen), have a some sort of Office suite, have a user-friendly text entering system (how else to edit Excel spreadsheets or Word docs on the road), have a superior contacts/calendar system, run more than a single app at a time. The iPhone arguably doesn't have any of these features. It is not a business device. It a consumer device, albeit a superior one. But the iPhone is not in the same class as the Pre.
I have to shut down a internet app, in order to answer a text message with the iPhone (assuming I could even learn to easily send SMS messages with that silly screen-only input). Already, that made the iPhone more useful as a paperweight than a phone for me, even if it had thousands of free apps and could run a Powerpoint presentation. Even the old Treos had some form of this multi-tasking capability.
I think users are reading too much into the "pinch to zoom" functionality. First, NASA and IBM (e.g., US5252951) long had "gesture to zoom/scroll" technology patented. Scenes in movies like "Minority Report" were inspired not by Apple and the iPhone, but by other defense-related apps. Second, that feature is not "make or break". True multi-tasking is a "make or break" feature. iPhone might have that functionality someday.
The Palm OS, not the devices, is what held the Treo from maximizing its capability. The Pre is just the first of dozen devices that will use the Web OS. Palm has known for years it could no longer stay with the limitations of the current Palm OS. The sale of the Palm OS to Access and the interim move to Windows devices were examples of this.
Early Palm PDAs and smartphones excelled mostly because of the superior OS (at the time). The Apple Newton failed because its poor and user-unfriendly OS (I had a Newton). It is obvious the open-source, Linux-based Palm Web OS is key to the Palm strategy, not the device. Devices come and go. Ask anyone with a v1 iPod.
I think users are reading too much into the "pinch to zoom" functionality. First, NASA and IBM (e.g., US5252951) long had "gesture to zoom/scroll" technology patented.
I went and looked at patent US5252951 on Wikipatents and as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with graphical interface conventions with one's fingers. It's apparently a patent for using alternate input systems in a computer and its programs that is designed for one input system. It looks to me to be a user input system patent for interacting with Taligent/OpenDoc style environments where users, trained on one app for years, and now in this integrated app environment, finds it difficult to learn how other apps work and this inventions seeks to solve that. The primary invention appears to be software drivers for an alternate input system (touchscreen, wacom tablet, mouse gesture, light pen) that can interpret/learn inputted gestures for copy-paste, etc. It makes no attempt to actually patent gestures or graphical user interface conventions which are presumably what is in play here with the iPhone UI.
Quote:
Scenes in movies like "Minority Report" were inspired not by Apple and the iPhone, but by other defense-related apps. Second, that feature is not "make or break". True multi-tasking is a "make or break" feature. iPhone might have that functionality someday.
It's good thing that the Minority Report UI has nothing to do with the iPhone, no? [sarcasm]I mean, come on, the iPhone requires that you use the device without a glove, while in Minority Report, you had to put on a glove. [/sarcasm] The Minority Report style interface, and the like one in Johnny Mnemonic, are crazy ravings from science fiction writers/directors who have basically zero understanding of user interface design. Nobody in their right minds would create UIs like that.
If multi-tasking is more important the GUI design, then I'm sure Palm would have no problem implementing their GUI in a different manner. But I somehow doubt that.
Comments
Its not as simple as Apple patenting the pinch itself. Its about Apple using its resources to develop a new user interface language and a competitor comes along and just copies Apple's work. The Pre is free to use the pinch, just not the same way the iPhone uses it.
I'm divided on the issue. Palm will not survive without the Pre. In one way I would prefer if Apple left them along and just competed against them. But on the other hand if Apple does not protect its ideas, that will leave them vulnerable to being copied.
It also interesting that many members frequently attack software patents held by other companies for specific ways of manipulating data, while I have yet to see any member attack Apple for essentially patenting the common hand gesture known as the "pinch".
"Multitouch may not be new, but "using the pinching motion where the zoom is relative to the space between the users fingers … meets the base requirement for patentability," according to Peterman.
Can Apple Patent the Pinch? Experts Say It's Possible
"Multitouch may not be new, but "using the pinching motion where the zoom is relative to the space between the users fingers ? meets the base requirement for patentability," according to Peterman.
Can Apple Patent the Pinch? Experts Say It's Possible
The gestures aren't new either. WTF do these people claim to be "experts" of?
Actually I think if Apple was concerned about this being a problem they would encourage competitors to use their standard gestures. If Apple does sue for using its gestures then it will force others to implement different gestures and the confusion you speak of.
One possible result, if Apple were to win such a lawsuit, would be for the loser company
to license (for big bucks) the use of the patents in question. Then the user would not have
to invent new gestures and the patents would still be protected. (Plus Apple could get
some more cash to add on to their pile)
Apple right now has to deal with:
a) Palm Pre - best iphone competition ever
b) windows 7, it runs fast on slow machines, 10 fold better than present incarnation of vista and still almost a year from coming out...
Personally, as an IT in Apple space, am hoping Apple hits a HR with Snow.
Actually, they don't have to deal with any right now since non of these two products are released yet! By the time these two officially released we will probably see Snow Leopard and new iPhone. We have no idea what the next iPhone will be like and have little information about Snow Leopard. So let's talk when they are officially released
Given MS history, the will probably mess up Windows 7 by the time they release it later this year.
If Palm continues their third rate lousy tech support they can have the best phone in town and I would throw them out like I did two brand NEW Treo 750's. My neighbor dumped six different Palm units before switching!
Keep up the bad tech support, Palm, and your development team could be just turning out lemons.
The gestures aren't new either
I'm just curious - do you have an example of someone else using a pinch for zooming before Apple debuted the iPhone?
I hope to hell you're not a proctologist!
Yep, Dr.M but that is not my area of specialization.
That is probably the best reply I have ever seen on this forum!
Except for the antitrust issues that it will inevitably raise.......
The webOS user interface has the iPhone beat in many areas but Palm doesn't have the integrated ecosystem that Apple does with OS X, notebooks, iPods, iTunes, AppStore etc. Maybe Apple should consider buying them, it might be less expensive than fighting it out in court.
Honestly... enlighten me on how you know an unreleased OS on an unreleased product has an existing real-world product beat? Are you some insider that has actual real-world experience or are you just pulling something un-lubed out of your backside?
I'll believe you can predict the next super-lotto numbers before I (or anyone else) believe you on this.
Don't you know how it works round here yet?
1 - Apple is King, Steve Jobs is God. Whatever Apple do is right.
2 - Anyone else who makes any product that Apple makes is on the dark side and are all evil.
3 - Apple can patent any silly idea and it is "progressive thinking" and "breaking boundaries"
4 - Anybody else patents things and it is stupid and the patent process needs overhauling etc...
5 - Anyone sues Apple they are just a bunch of thieves.
6 - Apple sues anyone and they are just protecting their IP.
Got it now? Follow these simple rules and you will be fine round here.
7- I like to spend my time on the internet having conversations with people I think are contemptible fools. Because I find it to be a very productive use of my time.
All this means is that we consumers have better choices of phones. If it bests the iPhone 3G then great! Apple doesn't own every cool idea and needs competition to make them do better.
Finally, if this does to Court it will not look good for Palm that much of it's team has first hand inside knowledge of Apple's IP. I mean, the guy developing the Palm is the same guy who headed up the iPhone. That will be problematic.
The only thing Apple might have them on is the similar multitouch. What people do not understand is that Apple is just running one implementation of multitouch which happens to be named "multi-touch".
I wish they would fight it out so that the public would learn more about that group of technologies. And it wouldn't just be Apple vs Palm. It will be Apple vs Palm's financial backers.
iPhone is a best-in-class consumer media device. However it is at best, a below average business phone. The Treo, which is generations older than the iPhone, is a superior business device RIGHT NOW. A business phone must be a user-friendly phone (have a 30 min concall without the face accidentally touching the screen), have a some sort of Office suite, have a user-friendly text entering system (how else to edit Excel spreadsheets or Word docs on the road), have a superior contacts/calendar system, run more than a single app at a time. The iPhone arguably doesn't have any of these features. It is not a business device. It a consumer device, albeit a superior one. But the iPhone is not in the same class as the Pre.
I have to shut down a internet app, in order to answer a text message with the iPhone (assuming I could even learn to easily send SMS messages with that silly screen-only input). Already, that made the iPhone more useful as a paperweight than a phone for me, even if it had thousands of free apps and could run a Powerpoint presentation. Even the old Treos had some form of this multi-tasking capability.
The Treo, which is generations older than the iPhone, is a superior business device RIGHT NOW.
Good for the Treo. You do realize the Pre comes with an entirely different, incompatible operating system?
Early Palm PDAs and smartphones excelled mostly because of the superior OS (at the time). The Apple Newton failed because its poor and user-unfriendly OS (I had a Newton). It is obvious the open-source, Linux-based Palm Web OS is key to the Palm strategy, not the device. Devices come and go. Ask anyone with a v1 iPod.
I think users are reading too much into the "pinch to zoom" functionality. First, NASA and IBM (e.g., US5252951) long had "gesture to zoom/scroll" technology patented.
I went and looked at patent US5252951 on Wikipatents and as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with graphical interface conventions with one's fingers. It's apparently a patent for using alternate input systems in a computer and its programs that is designed for one input system. It looks to me to be a user input system patent for interacting with Taligent/OpenDoc style environments where users, trained on one app for years, and now in this integrated app environment, finds it difficult to learn how other apps work and this inventions seeks to solve that. The primary invention appears to be software drivers for an alternate input system (touchscreen, wacom tablet, mouse gesture, light pen) that can interpret/learn inputted gestures for copy-paste, etc. It makes no attempt to actually patent gestures or graphical user interface conventions which are presumably what is in play here with the iPhone UI.
Scenes in movies like "Minority Report" were inspired not by Apple and the iPhone, but by other defense-related apps. Second, that feature is not "make or break". True multi-tasking is a "make or break" feature. iPhone might have that functionality someday.
It's good thing that the Minority Report UI has nothing to do with the iPhone, no? [sarcasm]I mean, come on, the iPhone requires that you use the device without a glove, while in Minority Report, you had to put on a glove. [/sarcasm] The Minority Report style interface, and the like one in Johnny Mnemonic, are crazy ravings from science fiction writers/directors who have basically zero understanding of user interface design. Nobody in their right minds would create UIs like that.
If multi-tasking is more important the GUI design, then I'm sure Palm would have no problem implementing their GUI in a different manner. But I somehow doubt that.