At the risk of appearing paranoid, which I'm not generally, if the capability is there it tends to be exploited. Occam's razor of governments/capitalists lets call it.
I can now be tracked by GPS in my camera, cell phone, and car as it is and have my picture taken at unprecedented rates each day. The data mining and analysis of the society has grown too prevalent.
Again, to all, what are the broad practical applications of this for us? I'm sure there must be some.
Unlike phones, you can install stuff like Little Snitch, etc, and completely determine what is being sent over the network. If Apple is sending data discreetly, it will be known very quickly.
At the risk of appearing paranoid, which I'm not generally, if the capability is there it tends to be exploited. Occam's razor of governments/capitalists lets call it.
I can now be tracked by GPS in my camera, cell phone, and car as it is and have my picture taken at unprecedented rates each day. The data mining and analysis of the society has grown too prevalent.
Again, to all, what are the broad practical applications of this for us? I'm sure there must be some.
Well, it's Apple's job to make sure we can trust it. I generally don't like the idea of being tracked everywhere I go, either...
Outside of the discussion of Macs and iPhones, this could also be ground work for any future Mac tablet, which would be more portable than today's Macs and thus have a greater practical use for location services. I'm assuming such devices would be more closely related to a Mac than an iPhone, so getting the location framework into OS X would be a necessary first step as would adding more support for developers using multi-touch so they could create more robust tablet appilcations than is currently possible on the iPhone.
At the risk of appearing paranoid, which I'm not generally, if the capability is there it tends to be exploited. Occam's razor of governments/capitalists lets call it.
Agreed. And that means that even if this feature were to be canceled, or never announced at all--you STILL couldn't trust that it wasn't hiding in there somewhere.
Whether or not you can TRULY trust the preference control doesn't really matter at all. The same evildoers at Apple who would violate the preference would put the service in secretly anyway.
The only real answer answer is to give up computing and live in a cave!
This is a huge, huge security issue. I'm a software developer and I can already think of several abusive ways to use these APIs to track people.
Malware writers I'm sure can too. Adds a whole new meaning to the "pedofile/sexual predator" expression.
People who think they can just turn it off by using some setting in the preferences are really naive.
And yes, I can write malware today that will send me your IP address, and I could locate the city you are in and your ISP, but I still can't quite pin point where your house is.
This is just taking it a step further. I hope Apple know that the direction they are taking is scary.
Perhaps it really is a good time to be looking into switching to Linux for all computing before it becomes illegal to own one.
Unlike phones, you can install stuff like Little Snitch, etc, and completely determine what is being sent over the network. If Apple is sending data discreetly, it will be known very quickly.
Generally, that's not true. You can not track what is being sent from your computer, from your computer.
You need to be inspecting packets on a trusted device or machine elsewhere like your router, or another machine running trusted OS, through which all traffic is routed (e.g. linux etc).
Little snitch won't be able to tell something is going on at all if I modify your kernel (with an extension or directly) since Little snitch and everything else relies on the kernel to do its job.
I'm sure, just as with the iPhone, the application will have to get user confirmation before being allowed access to that information.
and torture you with persistent pop ups asking "this app wants to use your position allow or deny" like on some of the iPhone apps, it doesn't take long til you come to a sad realisation. it makes them unusable IMO.
if I can turn the "feature" off on my desktop, then fine.. but only just!
Unlike phones, you can install stuff like Little Snitch, etc, and completely determine what is being sent over the network. If Apple is sending data discreetly, it will be known very quickly.
Unfortunately, there are apps out there--including Adobe's CS series--that bypass Little Snitch. I'm sure Adobe does this to try to get around pirates who use Little Snitch to prevent CS from activating.
OTOH, how long do you think it will take Adobe to require your geo location as part of activation? Heck, I can see Microsoft jumping on that bandwagon, too.
"If you move your computer more than three feet, you must reactivate it with Adobe..."
I love how people get scared about this tech, as if they couldn't be tracked already.
Your cell phone is constantly beaming signals back and forth to towers. There are video cameras all over the place. Believe me, if Big Brother wants to find you, he won't have any trouble.
I rely on the old standby that anyone who wants to track me has too much time on his hands. I don't consider myself that important.
I, for one, am happy to see this technology getting into the hands of ordinary people and programmers, where it might do some good, rather than just in the hands of government officials, who have been abusing it for several years. Where was everyone's outrage when it became apparent that the CIA was snooping on ordinary citizens for no particular reason?
I'm hoping someone will post a broadly practical use for this feature. On the iPhone it makes perfect sense on many levels. We have Lo Jack for tracking thefts if needed. This seems seems on the surface to be an extraneous and intrusive feature/capability. This would push me to Linux I think.
"I know the argument that if your not doing anything wrong then what is the problem."
Yes it is, and that is the most foolish capitulations to the potential of tyranny and loss of freedom one can make.
Well I needed to find a branch of my bank in a town I did not know, so with my iPod Touch and together with the apps "Vicinity" and "WiFinder" I was able to connect to a free open wifi zone and locate a branch. It also gives you a map with a pin location, street name and all the information you need, including telephone numbers.
You could do this from home in advance if you were going to be visiting any other town or location. There are a couple of other similar apps for the IPT and iPhone and I find them extremely useful.
As far as privacy or any other social values are concerned the technology is neither good or bad, it is always neutral. It is up to us how we use it.
I agree that in some aspects things are getting worse: your boss can always call you, you can not get one more day pretending that the fax was not readable and you could not respond, you can not tell you did not receive those letter yet...
But there are lot's of advantages as well - you can call your partner when you are going to be late for an appointment, you can call your kids any time... and your employee can not tell you that the email is late or unreadable.
Please remember that Apple is making the whole package. They may have specific hardware in mind. When I look at the bestsellers at Amazon the top of the electronics is usually GPS devices. Mini-tablet with navigator functionality anyone?
With the current hardware you can not get good location anyway. Those WiFi hotspots just don't work for the most of the world. Let's wait and see when and how Apple is going to use it.
I'm curious if the Address Book application will be updated to include Lat/Long fields. It's actually part of the vCard spec, but isn't implemented by Apple:
To me, the "SO WHAT" is that Apple seems to be getting very disciplined about saying "these are our core technologies, these are the unfair advantages that we can leverage, these are the frameworks that we can standardize around and this is the ecosystem that we have to unleash an army" and they are appearing to standardize across Mac, Mobile, Media Player and other form factors like storage, media center, etc.
This is what made Microsoft MICROSOFT in their heyday, and no one else even seems to be in the same league wrt that particular integrated, leveraged approach.
This is a huge, huge security issue. I'm a software developer and I can already think of several abusive ways to use these APIs to track people.
Malware writers I'm sure can too. Adds a whole new meaning to the "pedofile/sexual predator" expression.
People who think they can just turn it off by using some setting in the preferences are really naive.
And yes, I can write malware today that will send me your IP address, and I could locate the city you are in and your ISP, but I still can't quite pin point where your house is.
This is just taking it a step further. I hope Apple know that the direction they are taking is scary.
Perhaps it really is a good time to be looking into switching to Linux for all computing before it becomes illegal to own one.
I think you are diving off the deep end here along with a lot of other people on this thread. Especially with this paedophile stuff. That's just paranoid.
If the APIs include a 'turn off switch" (and of course they will) Apple is legally obligated to make that work and to not allow any workarounds except in the cases of unavoidable bugs which they are then obligated to fix.
As the critic of little snitch pointed out, it's still *possible* to modify the kernel to get around these things, but if Apple did that they would be breaking the law, and if anyone else did that, it would have to be done by a virus attack (unlikely) or a malware installation that again, breaks the law.
These kinds of technologies already exist and there is no way to stop them anyway. The major weakness (at least in the case of the USA), and the thing people should be worried about is the legal protections. As long as there are laws about what's right and wrong in these cases, there is no real danger.
The real need here is for some kind of privacy and data protection laws so the consumer can be sure that they are not being spied on or that the spies can be prosecuted if found.
This is a huge, huge security issue. I'm a software developer and I can already think of several abusive ways to use these APIs to track people.
Malware writers I'm sure can too. Adds a whole new meaning to the "pedofile/sexual predator" expression.
People who think they can just turn it off by using some setting in the preferences are really naive.
And yes, I can write malware today that will send me your IP address, and I could locate the city you are in and your ISP, but I still can't quite pin point where your house is.
This is just taking it a step further. I hope Apple know that the direction they are taking is scary.
Perhaps it really is a good time to be looking into switching to Linux for all computing before it becomes illegal to own one.
People who think location services is a direction Google, Apple, and everyone else aren't going to pursue BIG TIME are naive. Do they really expect Apple or Google to sit on the sideline and watch everyone else do it?? How would Google justify that to shareholders? "Sorry, we can't do location aware advertising because it seems kind of scary and new."
Comments
If this seriously makes anyone run to Linux then Linux will become a hot bed of silly mindedness.
Oh, it's much to late for that. That happened long long ago.
Forgive me Kaspar, but do you trust that?
At the risk of appearing paranoid, which I'm not generally, if the capability is there it tends to be exploited. Occam's razor of governments/capitalists lets call it.
I can now be tracked by GPS in my camera, cell phone, and car as it is and have my picture taken at unprecedented rates each day. The data mining and analysis of the society has grown too prevalent.
Again, to all, what are the broad practical applications of this for us? I'm sure there must be some.
Unlike phones, you can install stuff like Little Snitch, etc, and completely determine what is being sent over the network. If Apple is sending data discreetly, it will be known very quickly.
Forgive me Kaspar, but do you trust that?
At the risk of appearing paranoid, which I'm not generally, if the capability is there it tends to be exploited. Occam's razor of governments/capitalists lets call it.
I can now be tracked by GPS in my camera, cell phone, and car as it is and have my picture taken at unprecedented rates each day. The data mining and analysis of the society has grown too prevalent.
Again, to all, what are the broad practical applications of this for us? I'm sure there must be some.
Well, it's Apple's job to make sure we can trust it. I generally don't like the idea of being tracked everywhere I go, either...
Best,
K
I'm perfectly fine with my general location being broadcast but my exact location makes me a little uneasy.
Forgive me Kaspar, but do you trust that?
At the risk of appearing paranoid, which I'm not generally, if the capability is there it tends to be exploited. Occam's razor of governments/capitalists lets call it.
Agreed. And that means that even if this feature were to be canceled, or never announced at all--you STILL couldn't trust that it wasn't hiding in there somewhere.
Whether or not you can TRULY trust the preference control doesn't really matter at all. The same evildoers at Apple who would violate the preference would put the service in secretly anyway.
The only real answer answer is to give up computing and live in a cave!
But they are cold, you see, and often damp.
Malware writers I'm sure can too. Adds a whole new meaning to the "pedofile/sexual predator" expression.
People who think they can just turn it off by using some setting in the preferences are really naive.
And yes, I can write malware today that will send me your IP address, and I could locate the city you are in and your ISP, but I still can't quite pin point where your house is.
This is just taking it a step further. I hope Apple know that the direction they are taking is scary.
Perhaps it really is a good time to be looking into switching to Linux for all computing before it becomes illegal to own one.
Unlike phones, you can install stuff like Little Snitch, etc, and completely determine what is being sent over the network. If Apple is sending data discreetly, it will be known very quickly.
Generally, that's not true. You can not track what is being sent from your computer, from your computer.
You need to be inspecting packets on a trusted device or machine elsewhere like your router, or another machine running trusted OS, through which all traffic is routed (e.g. linux etc).
Little snitch won't be able to tell something is going on at all if I modify your kernel (with an extension or directly) since Little snitch and everything else relies on the kernel to do its job.
I'm sure, just as with the iPhone, the application will have to get user confirmation before being allowed access to that information.
and torture you with persistent pop ups asking "this app wants to use your position allow or deny" like on some of the iPhone apps, it doesn't take long til you come to a sad realisation. it makes them unusable IMO.
if I can turn the "feature" off on my desktop, then fine.. but only just!
Unlike phones, you can install stuff like Little Snitch, etc, and completely determine what is being sent over the network. If Apple is sending data discreetly, it will be known very quickly.
Unfortunately, there are apps out there--including Adobe's CS series--that bypass Little Snitch. I'm sure Adobe does this to try to get around pirates who use Little Snitch to prevent CS from activating.
OTOH, how long do you think it will take Adobe to require your geo location as part of activation? Heck, I can see Microsoft jumping on that bandwagon, too.
"If you move your computer more than three feet, you must reactivate it with Adobe..."
Ditto.
This sounds eerily Big Brother-ish...
I love how people get scared about this tech, as if they couldn't be tracked already.
Your cell phone is constantly beaming signals back and forth to towers. There are video cameras all over the place. Believe me, if Big Brother wants to find you, he won't have any trouble.
I rely on the old standby that anyone who wants to track me has too much time on his hands. I don't consider myself that important.
I, for one, am happy to see this technology getting into the hands of ordinary people and programmers, where it might do some good, rather than just in the hands of government officials, who have been abusing it for several years. Where was everyone's outrage when it became apparent that the CIA was snooping on ordinary citizens for no particular reason?
At the very least, its own efforts to track torrent use if it wanted to target abusers.
Just speculating as to possible ways that this could be abused/use as per the Adobe example given. Final Cut Pro? Aperture?
It is a slow inexorable path toward control. Baby steps until it is ubiquitous.
I have yet to see someone post some mainstream practical uses for this.
Is location really necessary? For 1%, ?
I'm hoping someone will post a broadly practical use for this feature. On the iPhone it makes perfect sense on many levels. We have Lo Jack for tracking thefts if needed. This seems seems on the surface to be an extraneous and intrusive feature/capability. This would push me to Linux I think.
"I know the argument that if your not doing anything wrong then what is the problem."
Yes it is, and that is the most foolish capitulations to the potential of tyranny and loss of freedom one can make.
Well I needed to find a branch of my bank in a town I did not know, so with my iPod Touch and together with the apps "Vicinity" and "WiFinder" I was able to connect to a free open wifi zone and locate a branch. It also gives you a map with a pin location, street name and all the information you need, including telephone numbers.
You could do this from home in advance if you were going to be visiting any other town or location. There are a couple of other similar apps for the IPT and iPhone and I find them extremely useful.
So yes, personally I think it's a good idea.
This is a huge, huge security issue. I'm a software developer and I can already think of several abusive ways to use these APIs to track people.
Is Apple using location services to find jailbroken phones running unapproved software or unlocked phones running on unapproved networks?
Are media companies using location services to find torrent media running on iPhone/ iTouch?
Their isn't much basis to jump to such paranoia.
It is reasonable considering talks with studios and record companies that Apple could then offer a backdoor to piracy control.
At the very least, its own efforts to track torrent use if it wanted to target abusers.
Just speculating as to possible ways that this could be abused/use as per the Adobe example given. Final Cut Pro? Aperture?
It is a slow inexorable path toward control. Baby steps until it is ubiquitous.
I have yet to see someone post some mainstream practical uses for this.
Is location really necessary? For 1%, ?
I agree that in some aspects things are getting worse: your boss can always call you, you can not get one more day pretending that the fax was not readable and you could not respond, you can not tell you did not receive those letter yet...
But there are lot's of advantages as well - you can call your partner when you are going to be late for an appointment, you can call your kids any time... and your employee can not tell you that the email is late or unreadable.
Please remember that Apple is making the whole package. They may have specific hardware in mind. When I look at the bestsellers at Amazon the top of the electronics is usually GPS devices. Mini-tablet with navigator functionality anyone?
With the current hardware you can not get good location anyway. Those WiFi hotspots just don't work for the most of the world. Let's wait and see when and how Apple is going to use it.
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt
(see section: 3.4.2 GEO Type Definition)
That would allow better integration with Google Earth, if they referenced each other.
(While we're at it, also including a field for PGP keys would be nice, and better integrated with the Keychain app, but that's a different topic.)
This is what made Microsoft MICROSOFT in their heyday, and no one else even seems to be in the same league wrt that particular integrated, leveraged approach.
This is a huge, huge security issue. I'm a software developer and I can already think of several abusive ways to use these APIs to track people.
Malware writers I'm sure can too. Adds a whole new meaning to the "pedofile/sexual predator" expression.
People who think they can just turn it off by using some setting in the preferences are really naive.
And yes, I can write malware today that will send me your IP address, and I could locate the city you are in and your ISP, but I still can't quite pin point where your house is.
This is just taking it a step further. I hope Apple know that the direction they are taking is scary.
Perhaps it really is a good time to be looking into switching to Linux for all computing before it becomes illegal to own one.
I think you are diving off the deep end here along with a lot of other people on this thread. Especially with this paedophile stuff. That's just paranoid.
If the APIs include a 'turn off switch" (and of course they will) Apple is legally obligated to make that work and to not allow any workarounds except in the cases of unavoidable bugs which they are then obligated to fix.
As the critic of little snitch pointed out, it's still *possible* to modify the kernel to get around these things, but if Apple did that they would be breaking the law, and if anyone else did that, it would have to be done by a virus attack (unlikely) or a malware installation that again, breaks the law.
These kinds of technologies already exist and there is no way to stop them anyway. The major weakness (at least in the case of the USA), and the thing people should be worried about is the legal protections. As long as there are laws about what's right and wrong in these cases, there is no real danger.
The real need here is for some kind of privacy and data protection laws so the consumer can be sure that they are not being spied on or that the spies can be prosecuted if found.
This is a huge, huge security issue. I'm a software developer and I can already think of several abusive ways to use these APIs to track people.
Malware writers I'm sure can too. Adds a whole new meaning to the "pedofile/sexual predator" expression.
People who think they can just turn it off by using some setting in the preferences are really naive.
And yes, I can write malware today that will send me your IP address, and I could locate the city you are in and your ISP, but I still can't quite pin point where your house is.
This is just taking it a step further. I hope Apple know that the direction they are taking is scary.
Perhaps it really is a good time to be looking into switching to Linux for all computing before it becomes illegal to own one.
People who think location services is a direction Google, Apple, and everyone else aren't going to pursue BIG TIME are naive. Do they really expect Apple or Google to sit on the sideline and watch everyone else do it?? How would Google justify that to shareholders? "Sorry, we can't do location aware advertising because it seems kind of scary and new."