"For the same price as an 8 oz. top sirloin, you can get a Big Mac and still have money left over to buy a fake chocolate milkshake, a "High School the Musical 3" DVD at WalMart and a 53 Snugglies for your family!!"
Yes, I've averaged 4+ years out of my mac, but things are changing a bit.
I HATE that my PowerPC iMac has a number of programs I can't run, even if I upgraded to Leopard becuase it's not INTEL
I HATE that when I got my 17" iMac I thought it was loads big enough until I started working on a 19" screen at work. My buddy sold his 17" Monitor on his windows box and bought a 20". I couldn't do that. He also ugraded his graphics card at the same time for $50.
I HATE that everyone touts that the Mac has iLife for free, etc. but doesn't come with any type of word processor. Yes iWrite is available, but since we're still in a WORD world, even the schools expect word documents. It's getting better and there's open source available, but there's still a bit of a conversion opening these documents and sometimes there's glitches.
I HATE it when my kid needed a laptop for some word processing, surfing and email that based on price (my budget), I only had $600 to spend and he ended up with an HP instead of a Macintosh.
Worst of all, I HATE that he's more than happy with his HP.
Bottom line, and ESPECIALLY in this economy, price has a LOT to do with a computer buying decision. Ads like this will trigger the economy factor in people's minds and with this throwaway society, isn't it better to throw away a $500 laptop in 2 years and buy another $500 one with more power and still be farther ahead in the 'hardware' department. With Open source virus protectors, openOffice, Safari,iTunes, etc., the Windows experience isn't all that terrible.
argh!!...I hate the anti-virus argument. People have the option of downloading free protection such as AVG, which is very comparable to paid software and adequate enough for most users.
and why would AI put OS X as "free?" Well, so is Windows when you purchase a PC. What's the argument there?
I HATE that everyone touts that the Mac has iLife for free, etc. but doesn't come with any type of word processor. Yes iWrite is available, but since we're still in a WORD world, even the schools expect word documents. It's getting better and there's open source available, but there's still a bit of a conversion opening these documents and sometimes there's glitches.
[snip]
With Open source virus protectors, openOffice, Safari,iTunes, etc., the Windows experience isn't all that terrible.
This Microsoft thing is lame. Microsoft is basically a software company. They sell software for PCs and Macs. They shouldn't be concerned about the hardware. You can now run Windows on a Mac. Plus they have a division that makes Microsoft office for the Mac. So, basically, they are cutting off their feet for sales of their own product to the Mac user. And it looks like they are just promoting an ad for HP in this commercial. The way it looks, they might as well get rid of the Mac division, since they don't care. Don't buy Microsoft office for the Macs. Let them lose that market.
Especially given the premium price, the lack of upgrade slots is the main mac issue.
The USB 3 test suite is due this summer, and the final product is coming out next summer. By 2011 USB 2 will be dead and buried if the changeover is as fast as the USB 1 to 2 conversion. My 2002 Quicksilver is USB 1 only, and if it wasn't for the expansion slot it would have been pretty much useless by the time the iPod shuffle came out. That Apple Product never has worked on a USB 1 port, though advertised to do so. But it works fine on the USB 2 card in the expansion slot.
So any non-pro Mac I buy today has an expected end-of-life of 2011 as a main computer. This does not necessarily make it useless, but it would be downgraded to some purpose where the lack of USB 3 would not matter, like the stereo cabinet.
The Quicksilver is still my main machine, but can I keep it together for another year? Maybe. Should I get a new mini, which I could move to the stereo cabinet in 2011? Maybe. Should I get a Psystar (has an expansion slot), and run Linux as a fallback if Apple locks down Snow Leopard? Maybe.
There is no good and easy decision, as Apple has left a big hole in it's lineup. A couple of Expresscard slots in the iMac would solve a lot of issues, as would a new Cube II with Expresscard slots. If Steve doesn't want me in his case, fine, but I need a system that can grow.
Like my Quicksilver, upgraded with a USB 2 card, a SATA card, and an ATI 9600 video card.
Nope, I'm not a troll (and I don't know what an "astroturfer" is) - I'm just a long-time Mac user who has become frustrated with their hardware offerings as of late.
Quote:
your upgrade parts also have a cost that needs to be factored in
Typically one or two orders of magnitude lower than the price of a new Mac.
Quote:
Macs last typically far longer than a regular PC.
This may be true for the high-end expensive models with slots, but the ones that most people can afford have become disposable computers these days. I know that I haven't been able to get many years out of those.
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most support and repair costs are built into the price on a Mac
You get a one year warranty, and unless it's a high-end, expensive machine, you need to buy AppleCare since just about anything that goes wrong is going to need a motherboard replacement. Heck, on the new iMacs you can't even replace the hard drive without major surgery, and on the Mac mini you can't even upgrade the RAM without voiding the warranty. And these are desktop machines!
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no antivirus or "repair" programs needed to purchase
You've never had a disk messed up in such a way that you needed DiskWarrior to recover it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1
Don't last as long? I've been averaging five years from every Mac I've bought since my PowerMac 7100!
The Power Mac 7100 was expandable, and had slots. That's the difference from the current lineup. Sure, Apple's high-end machines last a long time. I used to have a Power Mac G4 that lasted me five years, because I was able to upgrade its GPU and its ATA card to keep it usable. The iMac I had after that didn't last much more than two years before I had to get rid of it.
Unfortunately, the only current Mac like my old G4 is the Mac Pro, which with its last update has had its prices shot even further into the stratosphere than before, making it almost irrelevant to the discussion since very few can afford it.
And then there's the issue of hardware design issues caused by Apple's obsession with thinness - iMacs that lock up because of the GPU overheating, MBPs that lock up because of the GPU overheating (sadly, I'm stuck with one of those, which might end up having the shortest lifespan of all). I can't tell you how fun it is to have to cross my fingers every time I watch a QuickTime movie, open Front Row, or let the built-in screen saver run, because of the risk that it might result in my having to hard-reboot the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2
There are no PCI slots on all-in-one PC's either.
There almost aren't any all-in-one PCs. PC users buy either laptops (with ExpressCard slots) or desktops (with PCI/PCI-Express slots). There are, of course, netbooks, which are disposable in the same way as Macs are. However, they cost around $250 instead of around $1500.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowie74
What PC can be upgraded where a Mac can't? PC tower machines have PCI slots, so do Macs.
That used to be true. Now, however, Macs with PCI or ExpressCard slots are priced way out of most people's budgets.
Quote:
USB 3? There's no USB 3.0 devices yet. Why bother?
It's not about what's available now. If you want to make the machine last five years, then the issue isn't what you need now, it's what you'll need in five years. I didn't need FW800 at the time I got my iMac, but two years later I did need it, and couldn't get it without giving away the whole machine (and the lovely monitor that was built into it ). Many people didn't have anything that needed USB 2.0 when it came out - but after a few years they couldn't even use an iPod practically without it. Sure, you don't have a need now beyond what's built in. But who's to say that in five years' time, you won't need USB 3.0 for something, or perhaps eSATA or FW3200? Or perhaps even something else that will come completely out of the blue that we don't know about yet? The answer: you don't. A slot gives you peace of mind against such possibilities. Even if you never end up using it, it's nice to have for that reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma
Charles.. for an example. browse Amazon and see how many USB 3 devices are available. Its not an standard adopted yet for user less for companies.
Not yet. But in five years' time?
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eSata, why would any Mac user go for that standard if we been using Firewire almost a decade ago since the Powerbook Pismo.
Who knows? Maybe eSATA eventually becomes the standard, and all new external hard drives end up using eSATA. Maybe the MacBook dropping FireWire becomes a trend and people stop making FireWire devices. Maybe you just end up wanting eSATA because it's 7-8 times faster than FW400? Who knows, but if you have a slot, you have the option.
Quote:
My powerbook titanium still works. I have customers with G3 Power Macs and Quadras running and most important making money for their owners. The life spam of Mac software is longer. There is a lot of people running Mac OS 8.1 and 9.
Still works, but is it still useful? If it's running OS 9, it's certainly not - there hasn't been any new software available for that OS in years. I'm sure there are some technophobes somewhere still running Windows 95 for playing Solitaire or Minesweeper or whatever, but that's neither here nor there.
The fact that Microsoft is using these ads to focus on hardware is laughable. Microsoft is simply a software company (apart from Zune, XBOX), so that's what they should be advertising. They don't control how much HP charges for hardware.
Again, why can't they focus on the shortcomings of their OS instead of focusing on hardware they don't even make/sell themselves?
17 inch MBP 2800, lets say a $1800 markup, and if at that price, they sell 100 (just for simple calculation) that is a $180,000 margin
Now, that same laptop at a price of $1999, still more expensive than a comparable PC - that is $1000 markup per unit, now lets say they sell 200 units now because of the incredible price drop: that is $200,000 with double the user base, double the sales for iwork, ilife upgrades, applecare, and a bigger user base is always good
Apple have already stated they have no interest in the "cheap" market. Do Ferarri care about not shifting as many expensive units? No, they don't.
And the closer the retail price is to manufacturing cost the less room there is to adjust the price down with the economy.
Just accept that Apple wants to sell to the higher end of the market and be done with it.
Who wouldn't want a Lenovo Y530 over a MacBook 13"? I mean what is aMacBook 13" anyway? What kind of name is that? It tells you nothing. A Lenovo Y530 comes with an actual printed error code book for reference. That way the user can look up ERROR_BAD_STACK 543 (0x21F) and within seconds see that "An invalid or unaligned stack was encountered during an unwind operation."
Tell me a MacBook 13" (whatever that is) can do that.
The fact that they have to give away book of error codes is not a good thing. It just means you expect a ton of cryptic errors to appear.
Mac OS X give nice English errors the majority of the time. How can you say Y530 is a better model name than MacBook? Most PCs look like a cat walked across the keyboard to get the model name.
There almost aren't any all-in-one PCs...There are, of course, netbooks, ...However, they cost around $250 instead of around $1500...Now, however, Macs with PCI or ExpressCard slots are priced way out of most people's budgets.
It's not about what's available now. If you want to make the machine last five years, then the issue isn't what you need now, it's what you'll need in five years. ...who's to say that in five years' time, you won't need USB 3.0 for something, or perhaps eSATA or FW3200? ...A slot gives you peace of mind
I hear your argument here, and I only hope Apple will bring the price down on Mac Pros for folks with your needs (or buy used).
In contrast I have 2 HP workstations each with oodles of slots, and I use them for USB 2, Ethernet, and Video- features which are built-in to most Macs and PCs today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
Still works, but is it still useful? If it's running OS 9, it's certainly not - there hasn't been any new software available for that OS in years. I'm sure there are some technophobes somewhere still running Windows 95 for playing Solitaire or Minesweeper or whatever, but that's neither here nor there.
Some folks still run Adobe Photoshop 7 in Classic within Mac OS X. Many other apps too.
Someday Mac OS X will run within its own "Blue Box" within Mac OS XI, but OS X will still be useful then I'm sure.
The fact that they have to give away book of error codes is not a good thing. It just means you expect a ton of cryptic errors to appear.
Mac OS X give nice English errors the majority of the time. How can you say Y530 is a better model name than MacBook? Most PCs look like a cat walked across the keyboard to get the model name.
I think that bit about the error code was meant in jest.
Doesn't AI already have a front-page article on MS's new ads?
Macs have a higher TCO as well. When components in a PC become outdated or you need a new feature like USB 3.0 or eSATA or something else that didn't come with the machine, you can upgrade it for the price of a cheap PCI or ExpressCard add-on. With Macs, you have to throw the computer away and get a brand new one at full price, unless the Mac is one of the extremely overpriced "Pro" models.
They cost more up front, and they don't last as long. It's unfortunate that OS X can't legally run on anything else.
You are from earth right? Looking at the same units? How LONG a computer lasts is based on how LONG it's considered usable by the user.
USB 3.0 PCMCIA or Express Card slot... THAT'S A LAUGH! Your still stuck to the 66mhz bus, Which (drumroll please) is SLOWER than USB 2.0! Also, USB 3.0 is backwards compatible to 1.1 and 2.0.
"I am typing this on a UniBody MacBook running Leopard with iLife '09? "
Dude! Please post a picture of your macbook, if it's true then i believe that no matter what ad comes out of M$ it will always benefit Apple.
jajajajajajajajajaja!
p.s. incredible explanation, were you inspired by looking at your new uni macbook ?
p.s.2 i'm writing this on my macbook pro core duo (old version) but i have a 5 years old G5 (I never called Apple care and it has NEVER crashed on me.. ever.. )running Leopard that still rocks.
p.s.3 my wife does run windows xp.. on a macbook (c2d). she likes publisher for some reason.
Comments
"For the same price as an 8 oz. top sirloin, you can get a Big Mac and still have money left over to buy a fake chocolate milkshake, a "High School the Musical 3" DVD at WalMart and a 53 Snugglies for your family!!"
Sweet!
I HATE that my PowerPC iMac has a number of programs I can't run, even if I upgraded to Leopard becuase it's not INTEL
I HATE that when I got my 17" iMac I thought it was loads big enough until I started working on a 19" screen at work. My buddy sold his 17" Monitor on his windows box and bought a 20". I couldn't do that. He also ugraded his graphics card at the same time for $50.
I HATE that everyone touts that the Mac has iLife for free, etc. but doesn't come with any type of word processor. Yes iWrite is available, but since we're still in a WORD world, even the schools expect word documents. It's getting better and there's open source available, but there's still a bit of a conversion opening these documents and sometimes there's glitches.
I HATE it when my kid needed a laptop for some word processing, surfing and email that based on price (my budget), I only had $600 to spend and he ended up with an HP instead of a Macintosh.
Worst of all, I HATE that he's more than happy with his HP.
Bottom line, and ESPECIALLY in this economy, price has a LOT to do with a computer buying decision. Ads like this will trigger the economy factor in people's minds and with this throwaway society, isn't it better to throw away a $500 laptop in 2 years and buy another $500 one with more power and still be farther ahead in the 'hardware' department. With Open source virus protectors, openOffice, Safari,iTunes, etc., the Windows experience isn't all that terrible.
and why would AI put OS X as "free?" Well, so is Windows when you purchase a PC. What's the argument there?
However, I do not deny other claims.
I HATE that everyone touts that the Mac has iLife for free, etc. but doesn't come with any type of word processor. Yes iWrite is available, but since we're still in a WORD world, even the schools expect word documents. It's getting better and there's open source available, but there's still a bit of a conversion opening these documents and sometimes there's glitches.
[snip]
With Open source virus protectors, openOffice, Safari,iTunes, etc., the Windows experience isn't all that terrible.
Tried this?
http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/download/aqua.html
not tried it myself yet but thought I'd mention it
The USB 3 test suite is due this summer, and the final product is coming out next summer. By 2011 USB 2 will be dead and buried if the changeover is as fast as the USB 1 to 2 conversion. My 2002 Quicksilver is USB 1 only, and if it wasn't for the expansion slot it would have been pretty much useless by the time the iPod shuffle came out. That Apple Product never has worked on a USB 1 port, though advertised to do so. But it works fine on the USB 2 card in the expansion slot.
So any non-pro Mac I buy today has an expected end-of-life of 2011 as a main computer. This does not necessarily make it useless, but it would be downgraded to some purpose where the lack of USB 3 would not matter, like the stereo cabinet.
The Quicksilver is still my main machine, but can I keep it together for another year? Maybe. Should I get a new mini, which I could move to the stereo cabinet in 2011? Maybe. Should I get a Psystar (has an expansion slot), and run Linux as a fallback if Apple locks down Snow Leopard? Maybe.
There is no good and easy decision, as Apple has left a big hole in it's lineup. A couple of Expresscard slots in the iMac would solve a lot of issues, as would a new Cube II with Expresscard slots. If Steve doesn't want me in his case, fine, but I need a system that can grow.
Like my Quicksilver, upgraded with a USB 2 card, a SATA card, and an ATI 9600 video card.
I guess your just a troll or an astroturfer
Nope, I'm not a troll (and I don't know what an "astroturfer" is) - I'm just a long-time Mac user who has become frustrated with their hardware offerings as of late.
your upgrade parts also have a cost that needs to be factored in
Typically one or two orders of magnitude lower than the price of a new Mac.
Macs last typically far longer than a regular PC.
This may be true for the high-end expensive models with slots, but the ones that most people can afford have become disposable computers these days. I know that I haven't been able to get many years out of those.
most support and repair costs are built into the price on a Mac
You get a one year warranty, and unless it's a high-end, expensive machine, you need to buy AppleCare since just about anything that goes wrong is going to need a motherboard replacement. Heck, on the new iMacs you can't even replace the hard drive without major surgery, and on the Mac mini you can't even upgrade the RAM without voiding the warranty. And these are desktop machines!
no antivirus or "repair" programs needed to purchase
You've never had a disk messed up in such a way that you needed DiskWarrior to recover it?
Don't last as long? I've been averaging five years from every Mac I've bought since my PowerMac 7100!
The Power Mac 7100 was expandable, and had slots. That's the difference from the current lineup. Sure, Apple's high-end machines last a long time. I used to have a Power Mac G4 that lasted me five years, because I was able to upgrade its GPU and its ATA card to keep it usable. The iMac I had after that didn't last much more than two years before I had to get rid of it.
Unfortunately, the only current Mac like my old G4 is the Mac Pro, which with its last update has had its prices shot even further into the stratosphere than before, making it almost irrelevant to the discussion since very few can afford it.
And then there's the issue of hardware design issues caused by Apple's obsession with thinness - iMacs that lock up because of the GPU overheating, MBPs that lock up because of the GPU overheating (sadly, I'm stuck with one of those, which might end up having the shortest lifespan of all). I can't tell you how fun it is to have to cross my fingers every time I watch a QuickTime movie, open Front Row, or let the built-in screen saver run, because of the risk that it might result in my having to hard-reboot the machine.
There are no PCI slots on all-in-one PC's either.
There almost aren't any all-in-one PCs. PC users buy either laptops (with ExpressCard slots) or desktops (with PCI/PCI-Express slots). There are, of course, netbooks, which are disposable in the same way as Macs are. However, they cost around $250 instead of around $1500.
What PC can be upgraded where a Mac can't? PC tower machines have PCI slots, so do Macs.
That used to be true. Now, however, Macs with PCI or ExpressCard slots are priced way out of most people's budgets.
USB 3? There's no USB 3.0 devices yet. Why bother?
It's not about what's available now. If you want to make the machine last five years, then the issue isn't what you need now, it's what you'll need in five years. I didn't need FW800 at the time I got my iMac, but two years later I did need it, and couldn't get it without giving away the whole machine (and the lovely monitor that was built into it
Charles.. for an example. browse Amazon and see how many USB 3 devices are available. Its not an standard adopted yet for user less for companies.
Not yet. But in five years' time?
eSata, why would any Mac user go for that standard if we been using Firewire almost a decade ago since the Powerbook Pismo.
Who knows? Maybe eSATA eventually becomes the standard, and all new external hard drives end up using eSATA. Maybe the MacBook dropping FireWire becomes a trend and people stop making FireWire devices. Maybe you just end up wanting eSATA because it's 7-8 times faster than FW400? Who knows, but if you have a slot, you have the option.
My powerbook titanium still works. I have customers with G3 Power Macs and Quadras running and most important making money for their owners. The life spam of Mac software is longer. There is a lot of people running Mac OS 8.1 and 9.
Still works, but is it still useful? If it's running OS 9, it's certainly not - there hasn't been any new software available for that OS in years. I'm sure there are some technophobes somewhere still running Windows 95 for playing Solitaire or Minesweeper or whatever, but that's neither here nor there.
Again, why can't they focus on the shortcomings of their OS instead of focusing on hardware they don't even make/sell themselves?
Yes...but lets calculate something:
17 inch MBP 2800, lets say a $1800 markup, and if at that price, they sell 100 (just for simple calculation) that is a $180,000 margin
Now, that same laptop at a price of $1999, still more expensive than a comparable PC - that is $1000 markup per unit, now lets say they sell 200 units now because of the incredible price drop: that is $200,000 with double the user base, double the sales for iwork, ilife upgrades, applecare, and a bigger user base is always good
Apple have already stated they have no interest in the "cheap" market. Do Ferarri care about not shifting as many expensive units? No, they don't.
And the closer the retail price is to manufacturing cost the less room there is to adjust the price down with the economy.
Just accept that Apple wants to sell to the higher end of the market and be done with it.
Who wouldn't want a Lenovo Y530 over a MacBook 13"? I mean what is aMacBook 13" anyway? What kind of name is that? It tells you nothing. A Lenovo Y530 comes with an actual printed error code book for reference. That way the user can look up ERROR_BAD_STACK 543 (0x21F) and within seconds see that "An invalid or unaligned stack was encountered during an unwind operation."
Tell me a MacBook 13" (whatever that is) can do that.
The fact that they have to give away book of error codes is not a good thing. It just means you expect a ton of cryptic errors to appear.
Mac OS X give nice English errors the majority of the time. How can you say Y530 is a better model name than MacBook? Most PCs look like a cat walked across the keyboard to get the model name.
Function > form
I agree, and Mac OS X functions way better than any version of Windows.
There almost aren't any all-in-one PCs...There are, of course, netbooks, ...However, they cost around $250 instead of around $1500...Now, however, Macs with PCI or ExpressCard slots are priced way out of most people's budgets.
It's not about what's available now. If you want to make the machine last five years, then the issue isn't what you need now, it's what you'll need in five years. ...who's to say that in five years' time, you won't need USB 3.0 for something, or perhaps eSATA or FW3200? ...A slot gives you peace of mind
I hear your argument here, and I only hope Apple will bring the price down on Mac Pros for folks with your needs (or buy used).
In contrast I have 2 HP workstations each with oodles of slots, and I use them for USB 2, Ethernet, and Video- features which are built-in to most Macs and PCs today.
Still works, but is it still useful? If it's running OS 9, it's certainly not - there hasn't been any new software available for that OS in years. I'm sure there are some technophobes somewhere still running Windows 95 for playing Solitaire or Minesweeper or whatever, but that's neither here nor there.
Some folks still run Adobe Photoshop 7 in Classic within Mac OS X. Many other apps too.
Someday Mac OS X will run within its own "Blue Box" within Mac OS XI, but OS X will still be useful then I'm sure.
The fact that they have to give away book of error codes is not a good thing. It just means you expect a ton of cryptic errors to appear.
Mac OS X give nice English errors the majority of the time. How can you say Y530 is a better model name than MacBook? Most PCs look like a cat walked across the keyboard to get the model name.
I think that bit about the error code was meant in jest.
You mean like what apple has been doing for the last few years?
You may call it that, but Apple has actually been comparing products, not just berating Windows. That's the point you and most PC owners seem to miss.
Doesn't AI already have a front-page article on MS's new ads?
Macs have a higher TCO as well. When components in a PC become outdated or you need a new feature like USB 3.0 or eSATA or something else that didn't come with the machine, you can upgrade it for the price of a cheap PCI or ExpressCard add-on. With Macs, you have to throw the computer away and get a brand new one at full price, unless the Mac is one of the extremely overpriced "Pro" models.
They cost more up front, and they don't last as long. It's unfortunate that OS X can't legally run on anything else.
You are from earth right? Looking at the same units? How LONG a computer lasts is based on how LONG it's considered usable by the user.
USB 3.0 PCMCIA or Express Card slot... THAT'S A LAUGH! Your still stuck to the 66mhz bus, Which (drumroll please) is SLOWER than USB 2.0! Also, USB 3.0 is backwards compatible to 1.1 and 2.0.
Darwin Award nominee!
How about Walmart/Microsoft mashups? Throw in something about China.
Really, is all of Microsoft really this stupid? Really? Or is it just someone at the top?
Hello? Someone please explainthe I'm not cool enough comment. It makes no sense. What am I missing??
Thanks
Dude! Please post a picture of your macbook, if it's true then i believe that no matter what ad comes out of M$ it will always benefit Apple.
jajajajajajajajajaja!
p.s. incredible explanation, were you inspired by looking at your new uni macbook ?
p.s.2 i'm writing this on my macbook pro core duo (old version) but i have a 5 years old G5 (I never called Apple care and it has NEVER crashed on me.. ever.. )running Leopard that still rocks.
p.s.3 my wife does run windows xp.. on a macbook (c2d). she likes publisher for some reason.
p.s.4 please post a picture of your macbook..