Apple's priority for the iPhone is the common consumer. Apple wants the iPhone to "just work" without". Flash on mobile devices "works sometimes" and at best "doesn't work very well".
So Flash is kind of a big deal on new smartphones. The iPhone doesn't have it, the Pre doesn't have it, BlackBerry devices don't have it... but the Hero does. Unfortunately, in our testing, we found the inclusion actually hurts operation of the phone more than it helps. When browsing to a site heavy on Flash (there are many), the browser loading times were abysmal. Furthermore, trying to view videos in-window produced choppy, nearly unwatchable results. You may have a better experience with lighter kinds of content, but in our opinion the main reason to introduce Flash into a mobile environment is to allow for broader media viewing options, and in the current state of this Flash player, you're not really going to get much mileage out of it.
Apple wants to use the dominant position of the iPhone to push emerging technologies that do the sam job as flash but even better. These technologies are more appropriate for mobile devices and do not abuse resources or battery life the way flash does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
I don't understand all the hatred towards Flash. If you don't like it, DON'T INSTALL IT ON YOUR IPHONE!!!
What is wrong with giving us another option to use? If the OPTION is made available, I will use it on my iPhone. If you don't want to use Flash, you wouldn't have to install it on your iPhone (if it were made available).
Again, I don't see what the issue is here. I absolutely DESPISE text messaging and have no use for it since I can email with my iPhone. So I called AT&T to disable it. No harm, no foul.
Same with Flash, if you don't want to put up with it, don't install it... end of discussion. But if the rest of us want to use it, why would you support limiting that option to us?
Flash is a kludge too, at least in its real-world use.
I never ever encountered Flash outside of these things:
- ads
- consumer sites (like ikea)
- crappy games
- working around standard imposed security restrictions for the sake of user-friendliness
- in replacement for css/html/js/dom stuff but the dev couldn't get a clue of how to do it properly
- vendor-provided embedded audio/video player
Most/All of people need in this (who needs ads, etc... ?) and much more is doable in HTML4/HTML5 resp.
If you need anything more than what HTML&al. provides you with, then you need a full-blown application in .Net/Cocoa/whatever. That does not mean it's not a connected app. Think Twitter.com vs Twitter clients. Think Google Mail vs you regular MUA. See all those non-web, cloud-enabled apps on the iPhone/Android/Pre. See how the cloud offsets storage, computing and notifications off your iPhone when it matters, and do things locally when it matters. Do you see the pattern?
Ubiquitous web apps and optimised local apps as an interface to the cloud. Flash has no place to fit in that world. It tries to succeed where Java applets did fail, but Java had the good idea to then stick on the server side. What remains of Flash as a developper base is the equivalent of VB on the local app side and PHP on the server side. No sane developper would want to touch those with a 10-foot pole, if only for the specific aura they have.
He was talking about HTML5/CSS3/etc., not some proprietary browser plugin on top of all that. Apple's been pushing open standards for years, and is beginning to really pick up the pace more recently, because they know they need a level playing field if they're to have a chance of competing on their own merits. Reducing the Web's dependence on (unhealthy addiction to?) a completely opaque, proprietary plugin controlled by a single company (especially one that makes a point of short-changing Apple for kicks) is a big first step toward that.
Exactly. and crucially, this also applies to silverlight. Jobs is determined to keep both from dominating mobile computing at least. And erode their grip on the desktop browser too. With the iphone's runaway popularity all major sites will have to offer other options. This is hardball folks.
He was talking about HTML5/CSS3/etc., not some proprietary browser plugin on top of all that. Apple's been pushing open standards for years, and is beginning to really pick up the pace more recently, because they know they need a level playing field if they're to have a chance of competing on their own merits. Reducing the Web's dependence on (unhealthy addiction to?) a completely opaque, proprietary plugin controlled by a single company (especially one that makes a point of short-changing Apple for kicks) is a big first step toward that.
I'd like to say I believe in Apple and their convictions, but shortly after writing a post I saw an Apple ad using... you guessed it, flash!
True, but suggesting that flash isn't bad because Real Player exists is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
I wasn't. I was merely stating that I've used streaming Real Player on certain sites that only offer it and was wondering if that too was FLASH! Jeesh!
Exactly. and crucially, this also applies to silverlight. Jobs is determined to keep both from dominating mobile computing at least. And erode their grip on the desktop browser too. With the iphone's runaway popularity all major sites will have to offer other options. This is hardball folks.
Well that reasoning didn't work for MMS , nor glossy screens , nor SD slots, nor Blu-ray. And it won't work here either. you'll see.
I managed to read till the middle of the second page of this thread, so please excuse if someone already mentioned the obvious:
Besides refusing to give away to Adobe half of the computing resources and battery life available on the iPhone, for free , Apple has EXTREMELY IMPORTANT REASON to keep Flash away as long as they can afford this (without bringing too many user complains, that is):
Apple wants to build a platform around the iPhone. The #1 differentiator between the iPhone and the rest of the pack is the AppStore. If there is a decent Flash version running on the iPhone, there will be a wave of developers which will use Flash for delivering apps. But those apps will run on all phones (initially, it will not really matter whether they are usable on those other platforms or just run in theory). Everybody is against Apple in this game. Everybody will try to promote flash.
What those guys don't get is that they are giving a proprietary technology of a single company too much power. But they do not think that much ahead. If Flash is crappy, it will be crappy on all platforms, right?
Edit: BTW, that's why Apple does not want Java, or any emulator, as well.
Well it doesn't really matter being that Safari is HTML5 ready. With HTML5, web developers can embed their content right into the web page and they can be played right through the web browser., eliminating the need to even use Flash. It also incorporates H.264 which indeed does deliver some unprecedented detail whether your viewing it over Wired, Wi-Fi or 3G connection. Furthermore, Flash opens another door for hackers to potentially invade your device. Their is a reason why Apple didn't take part in the project. They have something that will probably beat what the industry has to offer. But you never know with Apple, being that they are so damn secretive.
Video aside, which I understand is huge. HTML 5 / CSS 3 does not offer the same capabilities as flash. The more accurate comparison would be Javascript / AJAX which has been leveraged quite successfully on the iPhone. I am very anxious to see Javascript move forward because if any current language is going to replace Flash/Flex/AIR/AS3 its going to be JS based. Apple's own site does a great job and I believe (it's been awhile since I checked their source code) that they are using Scriptaculous.
I have had a lot of success using JQuery to gain some of the typically Flash based functionality.
I hope Flash never comes to the iPhone because Flash is a steaming pile of crap and it is obviated by HTML5.
Maybe, but many websites these days are heavily flash dependent and many of those don't even offer a non-flash option. Yeah it sucks, but what's good having internet on a phone if it can't view websites. If Apple or someone else want to develop something better, I'll welcome it but until then flash is the reality.
Good, Flash needs to go away -- already made it happen on my Mac with ClicktoFlash -- works like a charm! ;-)
Just tried it out. Cannot use it. I'll rephrase that, will not use it now, yet. The video cannot be set to play automatically on YouTube, and you cannot click the video itself to play and pause (and go full-screen) which I have gotten very used to on YouTube.
Flash is better on the Mac for YouTube until the guy behind this makes those fixes.
I managed to read till the middle of the second page of this thread, so please excuse if someone already mentioned the obvious:
Besides refusing to give away to Adobe half of the computing resources and battery life available on the iPhone, for free , Apple has EXTREMELY IMPORTANT REASON to keep Flash away as long as they can afford this (without bringing too many user complains, that is):
Apple wants to build a platform around the iPhone. The #1 differentiator between the iPhone and the rest of the pack is the AppStore. If there is a decent Flash version running on the iPhone, there will be a wave of developers which will use Flash for delivering apps. But those apps will run on all phones (initially, it will not really matter whether they are usable on those other platforms or just run in theory). Everybody is against Apple in this game. Everybody will try to promote flash.
What those guys don't get is that they are giving a proprietary technology of a single company too much power. But they do not think that much ahead. If Flash is crappy, it will be crappy on all platforms, right?
Edit: BTW, that's why Apple does not want Java, or any emulator, as well.
This is probably the most sensible anti-flash comment I have seen on this site and I completely agree that this is the motivation for Apple to keep flash of the iPhone. The only thing I would disagree with here is the premise that Flash is just going to inherently suck on the mobile platform. Adobe is investing HUGE amounts of resources into making flash work better on the mobile platform and despite the random idiotic comments that "Adobe developers are all idiots", they are in actuality probably very talented (just like the guys at Microsoft) and I expect they will eventually resolve the problems with flash. I dont know why everyone think it's somehow unsolvable.
What I think will be truly interesting is what will happen when iPhone competitors have access to flash/air/flex apps for their phones that DO work well. Which I believe will happen. How will that compare to the app store? What will the economics be? Will they be free? Will it be a web based market place? All very interesting and much more likely than the idea that flash will just forever suck on the mobile platform.
A website that is heavily built on flash isn't likely to work on any phone.
Web developers know this, and is the reason why most popular websites have developed a mobile version that uses no flash and streams media using H.264.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Maybe, but many websites these days are heavily flash dependent and many of those don't even offer a non-flash option. Yeah it sucks, but what's good having internet on a phone if it can't view websites. If Apple or someone else want to develop something better, I'll welcome it but until then flash is the reality.
Good, Flash needs to go away -- already made it happen on my Mac with ClicktoFlash -- works like a charm! ;-)
I have to agree. The load times have been dramatically reduced and, so far, no more safari crashes .... but then, I've only been using it for less than a week now. Color me happy!
Flash already inherently sucks on the mobile platform. There is no way for Adobe to magically take something that does not work well on the desktop and make it work well on phones.
Adobe would essentially have to rewrite flash from the ground up for the mobile platform. I doubt they are investing that much resource towards it.
I think the results of flash does not convince many of us that flash developers are all that great. They are good at making eye candy, but they aren't that great at making anything thats actually useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz
The only thing I would disagree with here is the premise that Flash is just going to inherently suck on the mobile platform. Adobe is investing HUGE amounts of resources into making flash work better on the mobile platform and despite the random idiotic comments that "Adobe developers are all idiots", they are in actuality probably very talented (just like the guys at Microsoft) and I expect they will eventually resolve the problems with flash. I dont know why everyone think it's somehow unsolvable.
Comments
So Flash is kind of a big deal on new smartphones. The iPhone doesn't have it, the Pre doesn't have it, BlackBerry devices don't have it... but the Hero does. Unfortunately, in our testing, we found the inclusion actually hurts operation of the phone more than it helps. When browsing to a site heavy on Flash (there are many), the browser loading times were abysmal. Furthermore, trying to view videos in-window produced choppy, nearly unwatchable results. You may have a better experience with lighter kinds of content, but in our opinion the main reason to introduce Flash into a mobile environment is to allow for broader media viewing options, and in the current state of this Flash player, you're not really going to get much mileage out of it.
Engadget
Apple wants to use the dominant position of the iPhone to push emerging technologies that do the sam job as flash but even better. These technologies are more appropriate for mobile devices and do not abuse resources or battery life the way flash does.
I don't understand all the hatred towards Flash. If you don't like it, DON'T INSTALL IT ON YOUR IPHONE!!!
What is wrong with giving us another option to use? If the OPTION is made available, I will use it on my iPhone. If you don't want to use Flash, you wouldn't have to install it on your iPhone (if it were made available).
Again, I don't see what the issue is here. I absolutely DESPISE text messaging and have no use for it since I can email with my iPhone. So I called AT&T to disable it. No harm, no foul.
Same with Flash, if you don't want to put up with it, don't install it... end of discussion. But if the rest of us want to use it, why would you support limiting that option to us?
Exactly- that's why we got 2003 MMS in 2009!
MMS is a kludge.
Flash is a kludge too, at least in its real-world use.
I never ever encountered Flash outside of these things:
- ads
- consumer sites (like ikea)
- crappy games
- working around standard imposed security restrictions for the sake of user-friendliness
- in replacement for css/html/js/dom stuff but the dev couldn't get a clue of how to do it properly
- vendor-provided embedded audio/video player
Most/All of people need in this (who needs ads, etc... ?) and much more is doable in HTML4/HTML5 resp.
If you need anything more than what HTML&al. provides you with, then you need a full-blown application in .Net/Cocoa/whatever. That does not mean it's not a connected app. Think Twitter.com vs Twitter clients. Think Google Mail vs you regular MUA. See all those non-web, cloud-enabled apps on the iPhone/Android/Pre. See how the cloud offsets storage, computing and notifications off your iPhone when it matters, and do things locally when it matters. Do you see the pattern?
Ubiquitous web apps and optimised local apps as an interface to the cloud. Flash has no place to fit in that world. It tries to succeed where Java applets did fail, but Java had the good idea to then stick on the server side. What remains of Flash as a developper base is the equivalent of VB on the local app side and PHP on the server side. No sane developper would want to touch those with a 10-foot pole, if only for the specific aura they have.
He was talking about HTML5/CSS3/etc., not some proprietary browser plugin on top of all that. Apple's been pushing open standards for years, and is beginning to really pick up the pace more recently, because they know they need a level playing field if they're to have a chance of competing on their own merits. Reducing the Web's dependence on (unhealthy addiction to?) a completely opaque, proprietary plugin controlled by a single company (especially one that makes a point of short-changing Apple for kicks) is a big first step toward that.
Exactly. and crucially, this also applies to silverlight. Jobs is determined to keep both from dominating mobile computing at least. And erode their grip on the desktop browser too. With the iphone's runaway popularity all major sites will have to offer other options. This is hardball folks.
That still exists? Honestly I didn't know, and I can't believe you used that program to support your point on flash.
??WTF- I was responding to your declaration and asked a direct question!
Unfortunately most streaming is done with flash these days
,
He was talking about HTML5/CSS3/etc., not some proprietary browser plugin on top of all that. Apple's been pushing open standards for years, and is beginning to really pick up the pace more recently, because they know they need a level playing field if they're to have a chance of competing on their own merits. Reducing the Web's dependence on (unhealthy addiction to?) a completely opaque, proprietary plugin controlled by a single company (especially one that makes a point of short-changing Apple for kicks) is a big first step toward that.
I'd like to say I believe in Apple and their convictions, but shortly after writing a post I saw an Apple ad using... you guessed it, flash!
IS streaming Real Player Flash too? That sucks too.
I stream Netflix for hours on end... no issues, ever. Maybe Silverlight should come to iPhone instead!
True, but suggesting that flash isn't bad because Real Player exists is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
I wasn't. I was merely stating that I've used streaming Real Player on certain sites that only offer it and was wondering if that too was FLASH! Jeesh!
You too seem to have missed the point.
I don't want to use Flash on my Mac, it's a big resource hogging whale! By making a site Flash only, I don't have the choice to view it without Flash.
Well, that's your CHOICE and you made it. You have the tools to view Flash, but you choose not to use them.
It'd be one thing if a site operator made a Flash site and didn't provide you the tools to use it, but the tools are readily available to use Flash.
Now whether Flash is a resource hogging whale; that's up to you. I use it on my 13" MacBook Pro and don't have any issues.
Exactly. and crucially, this also applies to silverlight. Jobs is determined to keep both from dominating mobile computing at least. And erode their grip on the desktop browser too. With the iphone's runaway popularity all major sites will have to offer other options. This is hardball folks.
Well that reasoning didn't work for MMS , nor glossy screens , nor SD slots, nor Blu-ray. And it won't work here either. you'll see.
Besides refusing to give away to Adobe half of the computing resources and battery life available on the iPhone, for free , Apple has EXTREMELY IMPORTANT REASON to keep Flash away as long as they can afford this (without bringing too many user complains, that is):
Apple wants to build a platform around the iPhone. The #1 differentiator between the iPhone and the rest of the pack is the AppStore. If there is a decent Flash version running on the iPhone, there will be a wave of developers which will use Flash for delivering apps. But those apps will run on all phones (initially, it will not really matter whether they are usable on those other platforms or just run in theory). Everybody is against Apple in this game. Everybody will try to promote flash.
What those guys don't get is that they are giving a proprietary technology of a single company too much power. But they do not think that much ahead. If Flash is crappy, it will be crappy on all platforms, right?
Edit: BTW, that's why Apple does not want Java, or any emulator, as well.
Well it doesn't really matter being that Safari is HTML5 ready. With HTML5, web developers can embed their content right into the web page and they can be played right through the web browser., eliminating the need to even use Flash. It also incorporates H.264 which indeed does deliver some unprecedented detail whether your viewing it over Wired, Wi-Fi or 3G connection. Furthermore, Flash opens another door for hackers to potentially invade your device. Their is a reason why Apple didn't take part in the project. They have something that will probably beat what the industry has to offer. But you never know with Apple, being that they are so damn secretive.
Video aside, which I understand is huge. HTML 5 / CSS 3 does not offer the same capabilities as flash. The more accurate comparison would be Javascript / AJAX which has been leveraged quite successfully on the iPhone. I am very anxious to see Javascript move forward because if any current language is going to replace Flash/Flex/AIR/AS3 its going to be JS based. Apple's own site does a great job and I believe (it's been awhile since I checked their source code) that they are using Scriptaculous.
I have had a lot of success using JQuery to gain some of the typically Flash based functionality.
I hope Flash never comes to the iPhone because Flash is a steaming pile of crap and it is obviated by HTML5.
Maybe, but many websites these days are heavily flash dependent and many of those don't even offer a non-flash option. Yeah it sucks, but what's good having internet on a phone if it can't view websites. If Apple or someone else want to develop something better, I'll welcome it but until then flash is the reality.
Good, Flash needs to go away -- already made it happen on my Mac with ClicktoFlash -- works like a charm! ;-)
Just tried it out. Cannot use it. I'll rephrase that, will not use it now, yet. The video cannot be set to play automatically on YouTube, and you cannot click the video itself to play and pause (and go full-screen) which I have gotten very used to on YouTube.
Flash is better on the Mac for YouTube until the guy behind this makes those fixes.
I managed to read till the middle of the second page of this thread, so please excuse if someone already mentioned the obvious:
Besides refusing to give away to Adobe half of the computing resources and battery life available on the iPhone, for free , Apple has EXTREMELY IMPORTANT REASON to keep Flash away as long as they can afford this (without bringing too many user complains, that is):
Apple wants to build a platform around the iPhone. The #1 differentiator between the iPhone and the rest of the pack is the AppStore. If there is a decent Flash version running on the iPhone, there will be a wave of developers which will use Flash for delivering apps. But those apps will run on all phones (initially, it will not really matter whether they are usable on those other platforms or just run in theory). Everybody is against Apple in this game. Everybody will try to promote flash.
What those guys don't get is that they are giving a proprietary technology of a single company too much power. But they do not think that much ahead. If Flash is crappy, it will be crappy on all platforms, right?
Edit: BTW, that's why Apple does not want Java, or any emulator, as well.
This is probably the most sensible anti-flash comment I have seen on this site and I completely agree that this is the motivation for Apple to keep flash of the iPhone. The only thing I would disagree with here is the premise that Flash is just going to inherently suck on the mobile platform. Adobe is investing HUGE amounts of resources into making flash work better on the mobile platform and despite the random idiotic comments that "Adobe developers are all idiots", they are in actuality probably very talented (just like the guys at Microsoft) and I expect they will eventually resolve the problems with flash. I dont know why everyone think it's somehow unsolvable.
What I think will be truly interesting is what will happen when iPhone competitors have access to flash/air/flex apps for their phones that DO work well. Which I believe will happen. How will that compare to the app store? What will the economics be? Will they be free? Will it be a web based market place? All very interesting and much more likely than the idea that flash will just forever suck on the mobile platform.
Well that reasoning didn't work for MMS , nor glossy screens , nor SD slots, nor Blu-ray. And it won't work here either. you'll see.
You forgot to somehow or another tie in how hot the ATV is and how it doesn't have an on/off button. You're off your game this morning.
Web developers know this, and is the reason why most popular websites have developed a mobile version that uses no flash and streams media using H.264.
Maybe, but many websites these days are heavily flash dependent and many of those don't even offer a non-flash option. Yeah it sucks, but what's good having internet on a phone if it can't view websites. If Apple or someone else want to develop something better, I'll welcome it but until then flash is the reality.
Good, Flash needs to go away -- already made it happen on my Mac with ClicktoFlash -- works like a charm! ;-)
I have to agree. The load times have been dramatically reduced and, so far, no more safari crashes .... but then, I've only been using it for less than a week now. Color me happy!
http://homepage.mac.com/simx/technonova/index.html
Adobe would essentially have to rewrite flash from the ground up for the mobile platform. I doubt they are investing that much resource towards it.
I think the results of flash does not convince many of us that flash developers are all that great. They are good at making eye candy, but they aren't that great at making anything thats actually useful.
The only thing I would disagree with here is the premise that Flash is just going to inherently suck on the mobile platform. Adobe is investing HUGE amounts of resources into making flash work better on the mobile platform and despite the random idiotic comments that "Adobe developers are all idiots", they are in actuality probably very talented (just like the guys at Microsoft) and I expect they will eventually resolve the problems with flash. I dont know why everyone think it's somehow unsolvable.