In order for Flash to be replaced by a non-propriety solution several things need to happen:
- a powerful and easy to use tool for creating non-Flash content needs to exist
- the resultant content needs to appear the same across browsers
These are both solvable problems, but someone has to be willing to provide the solution.
totally agree. I do see the evolution of Javascript as a possible solution to this however, don't you? It is already ubiquitous, it doesn't require a plug-in and if they can ever get JS2 and someday JS3 out the door it will offer an amazing amount of functionality. Also the proliferation of JS libraries like JQuery, MooTools and Scriptaculous make developing it easier than ever....maybe I'm just dreaming.
I haven't downloaded Real player in years, and have never found a need to use it.
Well it exists if ever you need it. Optimized for OS10.4 and is 10.5 compatible. Obviously somebody uses it. Just because you don't I guess you think invalidates it or something?
It would behoove Adobe to be as open as possible about what they are doing with Flash. they depend on their developer community to use flash, and the community will make choices on what platform they will use based on what they feel will offer them the what they want into the near future.
The supporters of HTML/CSS/javascript make no secret of what they are doing with the technology. MS makes no secret of Silverlight. Adobe has to be open about flash. I wager we don't have anymore information is because it does not exist.
Flash is 10 years old and is widely used. Its very difficult (impossible) to effectively turn a ship that large in a different direction, without abandoning the old and bringing something entirely new. MS has been trying to improve Windows in increments and has been having trouble with getting people to adopt the newer versions. Apple got around this problem by completely abandoning its old OS and outdated technology.
If Adobe were doing something radically different with Flash they would say so, because they would need to let developers know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz
Of course I don't know what Adobe is doing, I don't work there. By the same token neither do you. Just because you haven't "seen that work being done" doesn't mean it isn't. Unless you work at Adobe? I am just stating what I believe is the logical conclusion. Adobe and every other company with a vested interest in mobile content will do whatever it takes to get their content on mobile platforms. If that necessitates a rewrite of any technology than they will do it. But whatever, you don't have to believe me.
As for seeing examples of website where Flash was necessary,...I'm not even going to go there, obviously what is necessary is a completely relative experience.
Actually, the biggest use of flash that I see (outside of banner ads) is in site home page banner/ headers. But in truth there is an enormous amount of flash content out there. If you google almost any recently released movie, console or pc video game or popular musician you will likely find a site built in flash. These types of promotional sites are a staple of the entertainment industry.
All of which can be built just as well in HTML 5. It will just take time for these big entertainment companies to adjust their work flows to incorporate people and tools that are geared towards content creation in HTML 5. However, the more people demand it, the quicker it will happen.
You also have to consider that the iPhone dominates the world mobile web usage and is number four web OS behind Linux. Accomplished this without the ability to see flash based splash pages.
You have to ask how important or valuable is it to most people to see such content.
Maybe you have no interest in such content and that's your prerogative obviously. But that doesn't mean other people don't and I think it's pretty easily assumed that this is popular content for a large demographic of users.
All of which can be built just as well in HTML 5. It will just take time for these big entertainment companies to adjust their work flows to incorporate people and tools that are geared towards content creation in HTML 5. However, the more people demand it, the quicker it will happen.
Actually, thats not true. They CAN however be built with HTML 5, CSS 3 and Javascript. Or at least close enough, which would actually be fine by me, if IE supported all this as well. But then, it doesn't really, so the only way to do this kind of stuff in ALL browsers is flash.
Video aside, which I understand is huge. HTML 5 / CSS 3 does not offer the same capabilities as flash. The more accurate comparison would be Javascript / AJAX which has been leveraged quite successfully on the iPhone. I am very anxious to see Javascript move forward because if any current language is going to replace Flash/Flex/AIR/AS3 its going to be JS based. Apple's own site does a great job and I believe (it's been awhile since I checked their source code) that they are using Scriptaculous.
I have had a lot of success using JQuery to gain some of the typically Flash based functionality.
Definitely, Java really has a lot of potential and Apple did a great job incorporating it into the iPhone. I would like to see what else Java can do because I am pretty sure that they have barely scratched the surface with it.
You also have to consider that the iPhone dominates the world mobile web usage and is number four web OS behind Linux. Accomplished this without the ability to see flash based splash pages.
You have to ask how important or valuable is it to most people to see such content.
Its incredibly valuable, as evidenced by the huge amount of money poured into it every year.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
Why is there no way? They are already working with ARM to optimize the player.
Why wouldn't they? Mobile computing is THE future of media consumption and EVERY company knows that, including Adobe. If Adobe needed to develop a completely new tool they would, in fact Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Sony, etc etc...will ALL do whatever they have to to be in the mobile world.
You probably don't realize it, but most of the websites you LIKE to visit are created by developers who are ALSO developing flash content for other sites. So the idea that the "flash developer" only knows how to make eye candy is inherently flawed because there are very few people who can actually make a living ONLY developing flash. Most developers create sites that use ALL of the available technologies including flash.
Definitely, Java really has a lot of potential and Apple did a great job incorporating it into the iPhone. I would like to see what else Java can do because I am pretty sure that they have barely scratched the surface with it.
The problem with Java however is that it is also plug-in based and proprietary, not to mention that developing it is typically outside of the standard web developers toolkit. At least that's my understanding, I am not entirely familiar with it so correct me if I am wrong.
Definitely, JavaScript really has a lot of potential and Apple did a great job incorporating it into the iPhone. I would like to see what else JavaScript can do because I am pretty sure that they have barely scratched the surface with it.
Java and JavaScript are two different technologies. The former has had about as much presence on the iPhone platform as Flash. I assume you meant the latter.
We are talking about the mobile market. Webkit overwhelmingly dominates mobile web use IE plays no part in what is adopted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz
Actually, thats not true. They CAN however be built with HTML 5, CSS 3 and Javascript. Or at least close enough, which would actually be fine by me, if IE supported all this as well. But then, it doesn't really, so the only way to do this kind of stuff in ALL browsers is flash.
Yes I agree with you totally. Smartphone on the web is new frontier and the groundwork is currently being laid for its future. And is the reason why Apple is pushing HTML/CSS/javascript and is not supporting flash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz
Its incredibly valuable, as evidenced by the huge amount of money poured into it every year.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
We are talking about the mobile market. Webkit overwhelmingly dominates mobile web use IE plays no part in what is adopted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
Addendum, Windows Mobile 7 will come out and will be adopted by many users, it doesn't use webkit and it will matter. Microsft isn't just going to rollover and play dead, although I'm sure many of of wish they would.
Anyway I'm off to get my flu shot.....interesting conversation however, take care guys.
Its incredibly valuable, as evidenced by the huge amount of money poured into it every year.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
Smartphones will be the next thing that almost everyone will have. the mobile web market is in a young state like Alk said, but the market will only grow big in a short amount of time, given that there are now well over 50 million iPhone and iPod touch users in the three years that the iPhone and the iPod touch have been in the game. Handhelds will definitely be the next wave and Apple will surely be a big contender in that.
...Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
That doesn't necessarily mean that Flash will still be popular or widely used at that time. Apple's goal in that respect is to set a precedent, on the mobile side, for using open standards as opposed to Flash, so that by the time smartphones do become the dominant Web-browsing platform, they'll be on the right track and "used to" doing things using those standards. (Naturally, whether it'll pan out like that remains to be seen.)
Yes I agree with you totally. Smartphone on the web is new frontier and the groundwork is currently being laid for its future. And is the reason why Apple is pushing HTML/CSS/javascript and is not supporting flash.
I agree, I also think the reason Apple is pushing it is because they don't want a free Flash based app store. But Adobe and Microsoft are both pushing incredibly hard for their own proprietary solutions to be in the mobile world as well, and the likely reality is that just as the web is divided today so to will the mobile web be. Which is unfortunate.
Much as I love my iPhone, it's beginning to look a little old to me. The lack of flash is a big part of that, as mobile browsing isn't all that useful when you end up seeing an awful lot of those 'no flash plug in' icons on web pages.
I'm also growing increasingly impatient over Apple's inability to support multi-tasking on the iPhone. It would be incredibly useful to be able to have Spotify or other web radio/streaming aps running in the background while I email, browse, use google maps etc. And I'd like Twitter, IM, and other gadgets running all the time on the home screen, instead of having to launch them, then quit them, then launch them, then quit them etc etc.
The iPhone is a good device but one which is beginning to fall behind other smart phone OSs, and if I was Apple I would be working hard to get Flash, and other expected modern technologies working sooner rather than later.
it's not the lack of flash that is making the iphone look old, it's what Moto and some of the other Android developers are doing. they are writing software to merge all your work, facebook and other contacts into one stream. Apple can't even write an iphone sync app without checking for duplicates. some of the other functiionality exists as separate apps, but since they are sandboxed they can't run and talk to each other
I imagine somewhere over at Apple there is a mobile Safari build that had Flash enabled and I bet this is what they found:
- It brought the iPhone's processor to its knees
Flash is a holder for all kinds of content (vector art, images, sounds, HD video, and with v10 limited 3d) and it can be a challenge to get these elements to render well on a 3ghz Intel processor.
I would guess that there isn't a single Flash based game out there right now that would be playable on an iPhone.
- It doesn't intelligently scale
I imagine the experience of browsing a Flash site is a lot like viewing a complicated PDF - not a lot of fun. While Flash is scalable, designers (like myself) usually work at a fixed pixel dimension, we never design thinking "what if someone zooms in 300%?"
- No Mouse or keyboard issues
Every single Flash game out there now wouldn't work for this reason. There are also a bunch of sites that capture mouse movement that would make for an unpredictable experience.
Each of those issues are going to be extremely difficult to overcome. If you aren't going to reliably view current Flash content on your iPhone are you asking Flash devs to maintain mobile vesions as well?
Comments
In order for Flash to be replaced by a non-propriety solution several things need to happen:
- a powerful and easy to use tool for creating non-Flash content needs to exist
- the resultant content needs to appear the same across browsers
These are both solvable problems, but someone has to be willing to provide the solution.
totally agree. I do see the evolution of Javascript as a possible solution to this however, don't you? It is already ubiquitous, it doesn't require a plug-in and if they can ever get JS2 and someday JS3 out the door it will offer an amazing amount of functionality. Also the proliferation of JS libraries like JQuery, MooTools and Scriptaculous make developing it easier than ever....maybe I'm just dreaming.
Real player?
I haven't downloaded Real player in years, and have never found a need to use it.
Well it exists if ever you need it. Optimized for OS10.4 and is 10.5 compatible. Obviously somebody uses it. Just because you don't I guess you think invalidates it or something?
The supporters of HTML/CSS/javascript make no secret of what they are doing with the technology. MS makes no secret of Silverlight. Adobe has to be open about flash. I wager we don't have anymore information is because it does not exist.
Flash is 10 years old and is widely used. Its very difficult (impossible) to effectively turn a ship that large in a different direction, without abandoning the old and bringing something entirely new. MS has been trying to improve Windows in increments and has been having trouble with getting people to adopt the newer versions. Apple got around this problem by completely abandoning its old OS and outdated technology.
If Adobe were doing something radically different with Flash they would say so, because they would need to let developers know.
Of course I don't know what Adobe is doing, I don't work there. By the same token neither do you. Just because you haven't "seen that work being done" doesn't mean it isn't. Unless you work at Adobe? I am just stating what I believe is the logical conclusion. Adobe and every other company with a vested interest in mobile content will do whatever it takes to get their content on mobile platforms. If that necessitates a rewrite of any technology than they will do it. But whatever, you don't have to believe me.
As for seeing examples of website where Flash was necessary,...I'm not even going to go there, obviously what is necessary is a completely relative experience.
Actually, the biggest use of flash that I see (outside of banner ads) is in site home page banner/ headers. But in truth there is an enormous amount of flash content out there. If you google almost any recently released movie, console or pc video game or popular musician you will likely find a site built in flash. These types of promotional sites are a staple of the entertainment industry.
All of which can be built just as well in HTML 5. It will just take time for these big entertainment companies to adjust their work flows to incorporate people and tools that are geared towards content creation in HTML 5. However, the more people demand it, the quicker it will happen.
You have to ask how important or valuable is it to most people to see such content.
How do you "work around" viewing a site like the one for Assassins Creed 2? http://assassinscreed.uk.ubi.com/
Maybe you have no interest in such content and that's your prerogative obviously. But that doesn't mean other people don't and I think it's pretty easily assumed that this is popular content for a large demographic of users.
All of which can be built just as well in HTML 5. It will just take time for these big entertainment companies to adjust their work flows to incorporate people and tools that are geared towards content creation in HTML 5. However, the more people demand it, the quicker it will happen.
Actually, thats not true. They CAN however be built with HTML 5, CSS 3 and Javascript. Or at least close enough, which would actually be fine by me, if IE supported all this as well. But then, it doesn't really, so the only way to do this kind of stuff in ALL browsers is flash.
Video aside, which I understand is huge. HTML 5 / CSS 3 does not offer the same capabilities as flash. The more accurate comparison would be Javascript / AJAX which has been leveraged quite successfully on the iPhone. I am very anxious to see Javascript move forward because if any current language is going to replace Flash/Flex/AIR/AS3 its going to be JS based. Apple's own site does a great job and I believe (it's been awhile since I checked their source code) that they are using Scriptaculous.
I have had a lot of success using JQuery to gain some of the typically Flash based functionality.
Definitely, Java really has a lot of potential and Apple did a great job incorporating it into the iPhone. I would like to see what else Java can do because I am pretty sure that they have barely scratched the surface with it.
You also have to consider that the iPhone dominates the world mobile web usage and is number four web OS behind Linux. Accomplished this without the ability to see flash based splash pages.
You have to ask how important or valuable is it to most people to see such content.
Its incredibly valuable, as evidenced by the huge amount of money poured into it every year.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
Why is there no way? They are already working with ARM to optimize the player.
Why wouldn't they? Mobile computing is THE future of media consumption and EVERY company knows that, including Adobe. If Adobe needed to develop a completely new tool they would, in fact Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Sony, etc etc...will ALL do whatever they have to to be in the mobile world.
You probably don't realize it, but most of the websites you LIKE to visit are created by developers who are ALSO developing flash content for other sites. So the idea that the "flash developer" only knows how to make eye candy is inherently flawed because there are very few people who can actually make a living ONLY developing flash. Most developers create sites that use ALL of the available technologies including flash.
Yeah...they are
Definitely, Java really has a lot of potential and Apple did a great job incorporating it into the iPhone. I would like to see what else Java can do because I am pretty sure that they have barely scratched the surface with it.
The problem with Java however is that it is also plug-in based and proprietary, not to mention that developing it is typically outside of the standard web developers toolkit. At least that's my understanding, I am not entirely familiar with it so correct me if I am wrong.
Definitely, JavaScript really has a lot of potential and Apple did a great job incorporating it into the iPhone. I would like to see what else JavaScript can do because I am pretty sure that they have barely scratched the surface with it.
Java and JavaScript are two different technologies. The former has had about as much presence on the iPhone platform as Flash. I assume you meant the latter.
Actually, thats not true. They CAN however be built with HTML 5, CSS 3 and Javascript. Or at least close enough, which would actually be fine by me, if IE supported all this as well. But then, it doesn't really, so the only way to do this kind of stuff in ALL browsers is flash.
Its incredibly valuable, as evidenced by the huge amount of money poured into it every year.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
We are talking about the mobile market. Webkit overwhelmingly dominates mobile web use IE plays no part in what is adopted.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
Addendum, Windows Mobile 7 will come out and will be adopted by many users, it doesn't use webkit and it will matter. Microsft isn't just going to rollover and play dead, although I'm sure many of of wish they would.
Anyway I'm off to get my flu shot.....interesting conversation however, take care guys.
Its incredibly valuable, as evidenced by the huge amount of money poured into it every year.
You have to remember that the mobile browser market is in a relative sense, very new and you're talking about current market conditions, not future market conditions.
Mobile web usage, and "smart phone" usage are nothing compared to cell phone usage overall and PC web usage as a whole. Right now Apple is a big fish in a relatively small pond. The size of that pond is going to change and grow ever larger.
Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
Smartphones will be the next thing that almost everyone will have. the mobile web market is in a young state like Alk said, but the market will only grow big in a short amount of time, given that there are now well over 50 million iPhone and iPod touch users in the three years that the iPhone and the iPod touch have been in the game. Handhelds will definitely be the next wave and Apple will surely be a big contender in that.
...Smart Phones will be the norm in the next few years. As processor speeds and battery life increase the demographic for phones will become the same as the entire web user base right now. Those users will be looking for the same types of content on their phones/portable computers that they see on their computers today.
That doesn't necessarily mean that Flash will still be popular or widely used at that time. Apple's goal in that respect is to set a precedent, on the mobile side, for using open standards as opposed to Flash, so that by the time smartphones do become the dominant Web-browsing platform, they'll be on the right track and "used to" doing things using those standards. (Naturally, whether it'll pan out like that remains to be seen.)
Yes I agree with you totally. Smartphone on the web is new frontier and the groundwork is currently being laid for its future. And is the reason why Apple is pushing HTML/CSS/javascript and is not supporting flash.
I agree, I also think the reason Apple is pushing it is because they don't want a free Flash based app store. But Adobe and Microsoft are both pushing incredibly hard for their own proprietary solutions to be in the mobile world as well, and the likely reality is that just as the web is divided today so to will the mobile web be. Which is unfortunate.
Much as I love my iPhone, it's beginning to look a little old to me. The lack of flash is a big part of that, as mobile browsing isn't all that useful when you end up seeing an awful lot of those 'no flash plug in' icons on web pages.
I'm also growing increasingly impatient over Apple's inability to support multi-tasking on the iPhone. It would be incredibly useful to be able to have Spotify or other web radio/streaming aps running in the background while I email, browse, use google maps etc. And I'd like Twitter, IM, and other gadgets running all the time on the home screen, instead of having to launch them, then quit them, then launch them, then quit them etc etc.
The iPhone is a good device but one which is beginning to fall behind other smart phone OSs, and if I was Apple I would be working hard to get Flash, and other expected modern technologies working sooner rather than later.
it's not the lack of flash that is making the iphone look old, it's what Moto and some of the other Android developers are doing. they are writing software to merge all your work, facebook and other contacts into one stream. Apple can't even write an iphone sync app without checking for duplicates. some of the other functiionality exists as separate apps, but since they are sandboxed they can't run and talk to each other
- It brought the iPhone's processor to its knees
Flash is a holder for all kinds of content (vector art, images, sounds, HD video, and with v10 limited 3d) and it can be a challenge to get these elements to render well on a 3ghz Intel processor.
I would guess that there isn't a single Flash based game out there right now that would be playable on an iPhone.
- It doesn't intelligently scale
I imagine the experience of browsing a Flash site is a lot like viewing a complicated PDF - not a lot of fun. While Flash is scalable, designers (like myself) usually work at a fixed pixel dimension, we never design thinking "what if someone zooms in 300%?"
- No Mouse or keyboard issues
Every single Flash game out there now wouldn't work for this reason. There are also a bunch of sites that capture mouse movement that would make for an unpredictable experience.
Each of those issues are going to be extremely difficult to overcome. If you aren't going to reliably view current Flash content on your iPhone are you asking Flash devs to maintain mobile vesions as well?