The Russians only became your friends after they embraced capitalism, which actually didn't make them much richer than before and created the ruthless Russian Mafia.
Iran is now your friend because you need them and were scared shedless that they would get involved along with some other surrounding states and you'd have a second Korea on your hands.
Friends...please...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excuse me? Created the Russian Mafia? I don't think so. Strengthened it, maybe. But that is hardly the fault of the US. If Russia were as powerful as they beleived themselves to be the US would be just an Annex of the USSR. I seem to recall one of their leaders at the height of their power saying to the US, "We will bury you." I am not feeling too worried anymore. The USSR was the enemy, and we won the codl war with a minimum of loss of life. However, it is going to take a long time to change how people look at the world in a country that has been Socialist for such a long time. Russia will be strong again, just not for a while. Besides, we are helping them just like we helped all the other countries that we waged war with and defeated. (We're so horrible. )
And as far as Iran getting involved in the war against us. LET THEM. IF they cannot see the way the wind is blowing, let them try to stand in the way. We will find out if they are any more powerful than Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other countries that we have defeated over the course of time. I hope they don't decide to, but if they do, it's their funeral.
Exactly! And that's where you're wrong. There is no wrong and right, just the perspective that different groups of people put the same situation in. </strong><hr></blockquote>
No. There is right and wrong. This is not a "we're just as bad as they are? situation. We are good and they are evil. Our police don't beat women for showing their shoes under their burkas. We don't force religious laws on people. We don't murder people because they don't agree with us. We don't cut off the arms of people who can't kick a drug habbit. I could go on and on.
There is no "look at is a different way" here. You're an idiot if you think there is.
The better question, Scott, would be: How ****ing stupid are you?
SJOll throws out a "conservative media" theory and I throw a very easy to understand jab right back at her.
I don't know if I could have made that jab any more obvious. Let's use the grey matter God gave us.
[quote]<strong>There is no "look at is a different way" here. You're an idiot if you think there is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's overspeaking.
Our police forces don't beat women for not wearing burqas but they do shoot people that are reaching for their wallets and then get off without investigation. We are not "good" any more than they are "evil". You are not evil because of the actions of Tim McVeigh. Your random citizen of Kabul isn't evil because of the actions of Osama bin Laden.
We have the right here. We were attacked and our actions are justified and proper. The death of those citizens, while tragic, is unavoidable if we wish to really take care of the problem.
The real question that these people (macoracle, SamJoOll, et al.) have avoided is: What the hell does it matter?
This isn't black and white, but it sure as hell isn't as grey as these people try to make it sound.
Our police forces don't beat women for not wearing burqas but they do shoot people that are reaching for their wallets and then get off without investigation...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really? Where? Cincinnati? No, that can't be right. L.A.? Oops, wrong again. NYC? Are you kidding? There's always an investigation these days. There are even various political axes that get ground some more whenever something like this happens. Maybe the official response isn't always what it should be but you are the one who is "overspeaking" now.
<strong>Fact is there no right or wrong moves for the US. No matter where we go or what we do we will be hated by some group for some reason. If we help one country the other will hate us. If we don't help then we will be hated. If we don't help enough we will be hated. If we ignore then then we're cruel if we help too much then we are "imperialist". No matter where we go and what we do we will be hated by someone for some reason.
?It?s just that simple.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. End of story. We need people to hate to make ourselves feel better. People see themselves as climbing up on the Chain of Being when they push others down it. Macoracle is no exception. He's just one of us by his own definition.
In Cincinatti, in New York, in Seattle, in Atlanta, in Detroit and on and on and on.
"Investigations", right. That's why cold blooded killers in blue get a few weeks suspension while a vicious criminal armed with an ATM card and family photos gets cold and stiff.
I consider an investigation something that brings more than a day or so of lip service only to be dissolved and swept under the rug when the public's eye is distracted. Maybe that's just a semantic thing.
Our police system is one of the (if not THE) least corrupt in the civilized world, but it is not clean as fallen snow.
Terrorism is one sided. By the definition the US, Britan and just about every country is a "terrorist country" and each government is made up of terrorists.
What do I mean?
Well the UN definition of Terrorism goes something like this: An attack on civilian targets so as to reduce moral.
This is exactly what the fire bombing of Dresden was, this is what the bombing of civilian targets everywhere is. Face it, were a boat load of terrorists pointing fingers at each other. The difference is that we have bigger guns.
No. There is right and wrong...This is not a "we're just as bad as they are? situation. We are good and they are evil
Come on. It all depends on who you are talking to. Regarding who is right/good and who is wrong/evil...just ask an Israeli, a Palestinian, a New Yorker, and Irishman, or whoever...and see how many different responses you get. Yes, I feel most fortunate that I live in California and not Kandahar. But if you honestly think that we are totally blameless in our domestic and foreign dealings, and can do no wrong, as you seem to imply in your black'n'white vision of the world, then you are either naive in the utmost, or in denial, or just don't wanna know. Some of what we have done in the past few hundred years to get where we are, has been downright evil.
Our police don't beat women for showing their shoes under their burkas.
No, but you may get shot to death for getting your wallet out. And since when are women in this country forced to wear burqas? Ok, I know what you are trying to say, but women in Islamic communities here are not, as a rule, required to wear burqas. But police here (like anywhere on Earth) can display some very uneven standards; I know of many people who have been pulled over for "driving while black", or have been gassed and pepper-sprayed for taking part in a peaceful protest.
We don't force religious laws on people.
The U.S. Government made it illegal for many Native Indian people to even speak or teach their languages. From what I recall (will have to check it out), re. some tribes, this was the law until the mid 1970s (!). This would have, by default, put their spiritual and religious practises outside of the law. And there are some in this Administration who support the idea of compulsory school prayer (provided it is from a Judaeo-Christian viewpoint).
We don't murder people because they don't agree with us.
Puhlease. Never heard of the Salem witch trials? Or the distribution of smallpox infested blankets to native Americans? Forgotten Wounded Knee? Or the 10s of thousands of civilians murdered by death squads we sent into Central America? etc etc etc? All these people disagreed with us in some way or other.
We don't cut off the arms of people who can't kick a drug habbit.
No, because we have this wonderful concept of civil rights and certain standards of human decency, although it seems there are a growing number amongst us who regard civil liberties as excess baggage. But big government locks up over 400,000 people annually for ingesting a siubstance that was made illegal with zero medical study.
A lot of ancient history there Samantha Joanne Ollendale. We've come a long way. But it does not matter who you talk to. There are absolutes in this world. Killing 4000 people because you don't like the US's foreign policy is ... what? You take the guess. Right? or Wrong?
I'll do the next one for you. Going to war with the people who aided, planned, funded and trained the terrorist who killed 4000 people is ... right!
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Puhlease. Never heard of the Salem witch trials? Or the distribution of smallpox infested blankets to native Americans?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Quite a long time ago. Hardly representative of modern U.S.
[quote]<strong>Or the 10s of thousands of civilians murdered by death squads we sent into Central America? etc etc etc? All these people disagreed with us in some way or other.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]We are not "good" any more than they are "evil". You are not evil because of the actions of Tim McVeigh. Your random citizen of Kabul isn't evil because of the actions of Osama bin Laden.
We have the right here. We were attacked and our actions are justified and proper. The death of those citizens, while tragic, is unavoidable if we wish to really take care of the problem. <hr></blockquote>
[quote]There are absolutes in this world.<hr></blockquote>
True, but most specially in the minds of the deranged and fanatical. Most people are capable of evaluating the reality of good and evil human intents, ideas, thoughts, words and deeds as a continuous spectrum. It is those who act out their fantasies and illusions of absolutism who are usually the maniacs who do the worst things and start all the trouble.
My choice of words is inaccurate for sure, thankyou for pulling me up there.
A better way to have described past U.S. actions in Central America would be not 'invasion', as I wrongly implied, but more the covert financing, training, organizing and overall support for the 'death squads" which ended up killing 10s of thousands of civilians there. bin Laden operates in a similar way, ie not directly getting his hands dirty but providing all the facilities for terrorists to do their dirty work.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Scott H:
True, but most specially in the minds of the deranged and fanatical. Most people are capable of evaluating the reality of good and evil human intents, ideas, thoughts, words and deeds as a continuous spectrum. </strong><hr></blockquote>
So? Part of that spectrum includes the values at either end - the places where absolutes are found. I think we can safely say that killing 4000 people on a September morning falls into the evil category. Or perhaps you think it is deranged and fanatical to think so?
I hate to belabor the point, SamJoOll, but wasn't the purpose of the School of the Americas to teach guerilla warfare?
Namely, pro-Democratic insurrections against tyrranical governments?
Not that our boys were nice, but they weren't exactly fighting nice guys either. Slaughter was the rule of the day down there, even if all we did was send wheat down it would have been to feed murderers.
A tragic time, yes, but not influenced in any appreciable way by the U.S.
[quote]So? Part of that spectrum includes the values at either end - the places where absolutes are found. I think we can safely say that killing 4000 people on a September morning falls into the evil category. Or perhaps you think it is deranged and fanatical to think so?<hr></blockquote>
If you took the trouble to read my post, notice that I said "most"...and not "all" where it counted. I am sure you are aware that there is a difference.
[quote]I hate to belabor the point, SamJoOll, but wasn't the purpose of the School of the Americas to teach guerilla warfare? Namely, pro-Democratic insurrections against tyrranical governments?<hr></blockquote>
Depending on what side of the political fence you stand on. Many folk in central America would say "pro-tyrannical insurrections against democratically elected governments".
[quote]Not that our boys were nice, but they weren't exactly fighting nice guys either. Slaughter was the rule of the day down there, even if all we did was send wheat down it would have been to feed murderers.<hr></blockquote>
You got that right; war is never a nice topic, and a shame we start and encourage so many.
[quote]A tragic time, yes, but not influenced in any appreciable way by the U.S.<hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>
The Russians only became your friends after they embraced capitalism, which actually didn't make them much richer than before and created the ruthless Russian Mafia.
Iran is now your friend because you need them and were scared shedless that they would get involved along with some other surrounding states and you'd have a second Korea on your hands.
Friends...please...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excuse me? Created the Russian Mafia? I don't think so. Strengthened it, maybe. But that is hardly the fault of the US. If Russia were as powerful as they beleived themselves to be the US would be just an Annex of the USSR. I seem to recall one of their leaders at the height of their power saying to the US, "We will bury you." I am not feeling too worried anymore. The USSR was the enemy, and we won the codl war with a minimum of loss of life. However, it is going to take a long time to change how people look at the world in a country that has been Socialist for such a long time. Russia will be strong again, just not for a while. Besides, we are helping them just like we helped all the other countries that we waged war with and defeated. (We're so horrible.
And as far as Iran getting involved in the war against us. LET THEM. IF they cannot see the way the wind is blowing, let them try to stand in the way. We will find out if they are any more powerful than Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other countries that we have defeated over the course of time. I hope they don't decide to, but if they do, it's their funeral.
<strong>
Exactly! And that's where you're wrong. There is no wrong and right, just the perspective that different groups of people put the same situation in. </strong><hr></blockquote>
No. There is right and wrong. This is not a "we're just as bad as they are? situation. We are good and they are evil. Our police don't beat women for showing their shoes under their burkas. We don't force religious laws on people. We don't murder people because they don't agree with us. We don't cut off the arms of people who can't kick a drug habbit. I could go on and on.
There is no "look at is a different way" here. You're an idiot if you think there is.
SJOll throws out a "conservative media" theory and I throw a very easy to understand jab right back at her.
I don't know if I could have made that jab any more obvious. Let's use the grey matter God gave us.
[quote]<strong>There is no "look at is a different way" here. You're an idiot if you think there is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's overspeaking.
Our police forces don't beat women for not wearing burqas but they do shoot people that are reaching for their wallets and then get off without investigation. We are not "good" any more than they are "evil". You are not evil because of the actions of Tim McVeigh. Your random citizen of Kabul isn't evil because of the actions of Osama bin Laden.
We have the right here. We were attacked and our actions are justified and proper. The death of those citizens, while tragic, is unavoidable if we wish to really take care of the problem.
The real question that these people (macoracle, SamJoOll, et al.) have avoided is: What the hell does it matter?
This isn't black and white, but it sure as hell isn't as grey as these people try to make it sound.
<strong>
Our police forces don't beat women for not wearing burqas but they do shoot people that are reaching for their wallets and then get off without investigation...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really? Where? Cincinnati? No, that can't be right. L.A.? Oops, wrong again. NYC? Are you kidding? There's always an investigation these days. There are even various political axes that get ground some more whenever something like this happens. Maybe the official response isn't always what it should be but you are the one who is "overspeaking" now.
<strong>Fact is there no right or wrong moves for the US. No matter where we go or what we do we will be hated by some group for some reason. If we help one country the other will hate us. If we don't help then we will be hated. If we don't help enough we will be hated. If we ignore then then we're cruel if we help too much then we are "imperialist". No matter where we go and what we do we will be hated by someone for some reason.
?It?s just that simple.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. End of story. We need people to hate to make ourselves feel better. People see themselves as climbing up on the Chain of Being when they push others down it. Macoracle is no exception. He's just one of us by his own definition.
"Investigations", right. That's why cold blooded killers in blue get a few weeks suspension while a vicious criminal armed with an ATM card and family photos gets cold and stiff.
I consider an investigation something that brings more than a day or so of lip service only to be dissolved and swept under the rug when the public's eye is distracted. Maybe that's just a semantic thing.
Our police system is one of the (if not THE) least corrupt in the civilized world, but it is not clean as fallen snow.
What do I mean?
Well the UN definition of Terrorism goes something like this: An attack on civilian targets so as to reduce moral.
This is exactly what the fire bombing of Dresden was, this is what the bombing of civilian targets everywhere is. Face it, were a boat load of terrorists pointing fingers at each other. The difference is that we have bigger guns.
No. There is right and wrong...This is not a "we're just as bad as they are? situation. We are good and they are evil
Come on. It all depends on who you are talking to. Regarding who is right/good and who is wrong/evil...just ask an Israeli, a Palestinian, a New Yorker, and Irishman, or whoever...and see how many different responses you get. Yes, I feel most fortunate that I live in California and not Kandahar. But if you honestly think that we are totally blameless in our domestic and foreign dealings, and can do no wrong, as you seem to imply in your black'n'white vision of the world, then you are either naive in the utmost, or in denial, or just don't wanna know. Some of what we have done in the past few hundred years to get where we are, has been downright evil.
Our police don't beat women for showing their shoes under their burkas.
No, but you may get shot to death for getting your wallet out. And since when are women in this country forced to wear burqas? Ok, I know what you are trying to say, but women in Islamic communities here are not, as a rule, required to wear burqas. But police here (like anywhere on Earth) can display some very uneven standards; I know of many people who have been pulled over for "driving while black", or have been gassed and pepper-sprayed for taking part in a peaceful protest.
We don't force religious laws on people.
The U.S. Government made it illegal for many Native Indian people to even speak or teach their languages. From what I recall (will have to check it out), re. some tribes, this was the law until the mid 1970s (!). This would have, by default, put their spiritual and religious practises outside of the law. And there are some in this Administration who support the idea of compulsory school prayer (provided it is from a Judaeo-Christian viewpoint).
We don't murder people because they don't agree with us.
Puhlease. Never heard of the Salem witch trials? Or the distribution of smallpox infested blankets to native Americans? Forgotten Wounded Knee? Or the 10s of thousands of civilians murdered by death squads we sent into Central America? etc etc etc? All these people disagreed with us in some way or other.
We don't cut off the arms of people who can't kick a drug habbit.
No, because we have this wonderful concept of civil rights and certain standards of human decency, although it seems there are a growing number amongst us who regard civil liberties as excess baggage. But big government locks up over 400,000 people annually for ingesting a siubstance that was made illegal with zero medical study.
I could go on and on.
You are not alone
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
<strong>We don't murder people because they don't agree with us.
Puhlease. Never heard of the Salem witch trials?</strong><hr></blockquote>Huh?
I'll do the next one for you. Going to war with the people who aided, planned, funded and trained the terrorist who killed 4000 people is ... right!
<strong>Puhlease. Never heard of the Salem witch trials? Or the distribution of smallpox infested blankets to native Americans?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not the U.S.A.
[quote]<strong>Forgotten Wounded Knee?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Quite a long time ago. Hardly representative of modern U.S.
[quote]<strong>Or the 10s of thousands of civilians murdered by death squads we sent into Central America? etc etc etc? All these people disagreed with us in some way or other.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Define "we sent".
Here here!
Now watch them carefully ignoring that quote.
We have the right here. We were attacked and our actions are justified and proper. The death of those citizens, while tragic, is unavoidable if we wish to really take care of the problem. <hr></blockquote>
Well at least we agree about that then.
[quote]There are absolutes in this world.<hr></blockquote>
True, but most specially in the minds of the deranged and fanatical. Most people are capable of evaluating the reality of good and evil human intents, ideas, thoughts, words and deeds as a continuous spectrum. It is those who act out their fantasies and illusions of absolutism who are usually the maniacs who do the worst things and start all the trouble.
[quote]Define "we sent".<hr></blockquote>
My choice of words is inaccurate for sure, thankyou for pulling me up there.
A better way to have described past U.S. actions in Central America would be not 'invasion', as I wrongly implied, but more the covert financing, training, organizing and overall support for the 'death squads" which ended up killing 10s of thousands of civilians there. bin Laden operates in a similar way, ie not directly getting his hands dirty but providing all the facilities for terrorists to do their dirty work.
<strong>Scott H:
True, but most specially in the minds of the deranged and fanatical. Most people are capable of evaluating the reality of good and evil human intents, ideas, thoughts, words and deeds as a continuous spectrum. </strong><hr></blockquote>
So? Part of that spectrum includes the values at either end - the places where absolutes are found. I think we can safely say that killing 4000 people on a September morning falls into the evil category. Or perhaps you think it is deranged and fanatical to think so?
Namely, pro-Democratic insurrections against tyrranical governments?
Not that our boys were nice, but they weren't exactly fighting nice guys either. Slaughter was the rule of the day down there, even if all we did was send wheat down it would have been to feed murderers.
A tragic time, yes, but not influenced in any appreciable way by the U.S.
If you took the trouble to read my post, notice that I said "most"...and not "all" where it counted. I am sure you are aware that there is a difference.
Depending on what side of the political fence you stand on. Many folk in central America would say "pro-tyrannical insurrections against democratically elected governments".
[quote]Not that our boys were nice, but they weren't exactly fighting nice guys either. Slaughter was the rule of the day down there, even if all we did was send wheat down it would have been to feed murderers.<hr></blockquote>
You got that right; war is never a nice topic, and a shame we start and encourage so many.
[quote]A tragic time, yes, but not influenced in any appreciable way by the U.S.<hr></blockquote>
!!!!!!!
A list of graduates:
<a href="http://www.derechos.org/soa/"; target="_blank">http://www.derechos.org/soa/</a>;
Some more links:
<a href="http://pangaea.org/street_children/latin/soa.htm"; target="_blank">http://pangaea.org/street_children/latin/soa.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/policy_sa.html"; target="_blank">http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/policy_sa.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.cdi.org/adm/transcripts/804/"; target="_blank">http://www.cdi.org/adm/transcripts/804/</a>;
<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0524-02.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0524-02.htm</a>;
[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>