What specific part didn't you agree with? Why?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not a matter of agree or disagree - it's not an opinion issue. There is a ton of scientific research on nutrition, all of it consistent with the food guide pyramid, and inconsistent with the overwhelmingly popular Atkins / Zone / Carbohydrate Addict / Sugar Busters / Hellers / Eades diets.
I'm friends with lots of scientists and clinicians in this area, and this stuff drives them crazy. It's like evolution to biologists, or free trade to economists - it's so obvious and clear to people who are scientists in the area, but most people seem to think they know better.
1. There is absolutely zero empirical research demonstrating the effectiveness of these diets. The arguments come from historical ramblings about mummies and pseudoscientific and inaccurate babble about insulin and ketosis.
2. All of the research supports the basic food pyramid, i.e., that most of your calories should come from the bottom category of breads and pastas and rice, etc., and fewer of your calories should come from fat. The low-carb diets reverse this, so that most of your calories are coming from fat, and little from carbs, fruits, and veggies
3. There are two ways a diet like this reduces your weight:
a. By reducing your overall calorie intake, which will happen if you massively restrict a huge portion of your food.
b. By putting you into ketosis, which diminishes your appetite and makes you lose water.
Neither of these are genuine methods of long-term weight loss.
4. When Atkins initially published his book 30 years ago, it was very popular, and then discredited by scientists. So he waited a couple of decades, and is now at it again.
5. Long-term use of a low-carb diet leads to increased risk of CVD and cancer, among other things - basically, you lose the health benefits provided by basing your diet on all the great foods at the base of the pyramid.
6. In order to sell a diet book (and recipe books, and foods, and vitamins and herbs, and videos, and classes, etc.), you have to be different. You're not going to sell your products if you simply restate basic science - how boring. Plus the basic science says it's hard to lose weight - you've got to consume less and exercise more.
7. Fat tastes good. Even better than the bottom of the pyramid foods, like breads, pasta, rice, etc., at least to most of us. That's why these diets are attractive to people. "I can eat good tasting food, and still lose weight!"
Don't know exactly how much such a thing affects the nutritional and caloric content of the meal, but if you want to get rice to taste good enough, try this sauce recipe, my own version of traditional Panang. This is all off the top of my head, but I've cooked it enough that I probably remember everything.
Ingredients:
2 tbsp Panang curry paste. Be careful to get pure curry paste and not stuff that's already flavoured with the rest of the ingredients.
1 14 oz can of coconut milk. Let can sit upright overnight.
1 tbsp Nam Pla (Thai fish sauce). Get the stuff that's watery, brown, and partially transparent, not the viscous stuff.
2 tbsp golden brown sugar.
1 pineapple ring in juice or syrup.
1/4 cup whole basil. Preferably Thai or purple.
Directions:
Skim the heavy cream off the top of the coconut milk can and heat in a saucepan until boiling. The cream will be approximately half of the volume of the can. Add the curry paste and cook for 3 minutes, stirring continuously. Add the rest of the coconut milk and return to a boil. Taste to determine correct level of spiciness. Keep in mind you can use as little sauce per volume of rice as you want, but it is difficult to exceed the spiciness of the sauce at this point without adding more curry now.
Cut the pineapple ring into bite-sized pieces (I prefer eighths) and add to the sauce. Cook for one minute. Add brown sugar and fish sauce. Cook for 2-3 minutes.
Remove from heat and add the basil. The ambient heat in the sauce should be just enough to make the leaves wither and absorb their taste.
Serve over rice, being judicious with its application until you are experienced with its strength and your tolerance for spice. I prefer to wash my rice before cooking it, but if this is a means to provide nutrition for the day, I would suggest not washing off the rice flour. You'll lose a lot of the nutrients.
For a more robust meal, add sliced duck or chicken to the sauce after the sugar and fish sauce are mixed in. Cook the normal 2-3 minutes for a pre-roasted duck or until thoroughly cooked for raw chicken. I will occasionally pan-fry the roasted duck until it's crispy and pour the curry sauce over it and the rice at the same time.
The above sauce recipe has proven to be just enough for 2 cups uncooked rice in my experience.
What am I getting to? I'm worried that the cultural implications of fast food (quantity and no substance over quality) will become a common way of thinking for my and future generations of Europeans will cut corners, become superficial, and look at speed speed speed and make sure its just cheaper and to hell with quality... lets just sell more! Jaguar started going that way. Only recently have they gotten their act together... but otherwise, they were making some of the worst cars in the world. The common saying was that if you get a Jag, you better be rich enough to buy two of them... one will always be in the garage getting repaired! (just to clarify for the rabid USA #1 patriots, I am NOT blaming this on the USA... yeeesh).QB]<hr></blockquote>
You should be blaming the turn-around of Jaguar on the US. There was this little US company that bought them out a few years ago. Perhaps you've heard of them..... Ford?
lol, nevermind. americans are fat 'cause they're all sick with a disease. sheesh, this whole time i thought it was a bad diet/self control issue. oops.
[quote]I've just been able to step away from the USA for a while be able to see American life from different perspectives instead of the closed and padded view most Americans like to think of themselves as being in.<hr></blockquote>
So if you were to be asked what your nationality is right now, you would register as an American?
Give it up, you're not a ****ing American. Don't speak for us, thanks.
I have no problem with critique of America. I have a big problem with whining idiots who have no brains.
[quote]Its just that the USA basically created junk food and has been pushing it like crazy over here these last few decades.<hr></blockquote>
1) The USA did not create junk food.
2) The "USA" hasn't been "pushing" it.
You're confusing multi-national corporations for the U.S. once again.
[quote]Case in point, when you have the money and want to buy QUALITY do you buy American luxury goods or European?<hr></blockquote>
The attraction to European products is the fact that they are European. That's why you get those things.
What is the practical different between a friggin' Rolex and a Fossil watch?
I'll tell you what the difference is, genius, price and image.
It's absolutely hilarious that you would accuse the U.S. of being obsessed with impression and you are in EUROPE.
There isn't a god-damned thing authentic about Europe. ****ing puppet monarchies and half-assed socialism covering up deep-rooted racism. If there's any body of people on the earth who are logically excluded from pointing fingers about artifice it's the ****ing Europeans.
Japan has Europe's ass kicked for quality in cars, too. Sorry, you lose there again.
[quote]And whats wrong with socialism? You act like its a damn disease or something! Sure, too much socialism sucks, but heck, its done great things here.<hr></blockquote>
Well, it is a disease. It eats away at personal freedom like a virus. Just look at the EU's recent attempts to make racism illegal.
It's done great things there. . . that's hilarious. Look at Germany's economy. The same Germany that fines Wal-Mart Stores for working too much. Going right down the ****ing shitter.
[quote]After 10+ years here, you come to appreciate the goods and the bads of my beloved USA as well as the good and the bads of Europe.<hr></blockquote>
That's funny, you seem unable to mention a good thing about the U.S.
[quote]But why do some of you take what I say so damn litterally? Be a bit more open minded!<hr></blockquote>
You whine about the U.S. making Italian kids fat and I'm not open-minded.
Think before you speak.
[quote]You get used to mediocre, and it carries on to how you live life and your attitude twords life and work and society.<hr></blockquote>
You act as if Europe wasn't about mediocrity before McDonald's. Arguably the most racist and backward continent on the planet.
The land of 4 day work-weeks and months of vacation. Yes, they certainly pride themselves in their work.
You are one condescending ****ing prick. If I brought you to the deep south and fed your punk-ass some collard greens and chitlins you'd whine for a "tourist trap" restaurant. Maybe they don't like the food because they're not used to it, you elitist moron.
Today in the news it was revealed that OBESITY in AMERICA has now eclipsed smoking as the NUMBER 1 (that's #1!!) cause of DEATH
Just because people do something out of ease and because of the pressures of lack of alternatives, due to the increasing lack of time, does not mean that it is a good thing. In other words: just because Italians now frequent McDonald's because they (like everybody now) have no time, no energy to waste, and fewer and fewer alternatives, does not mean that their doing so is a good thing for them. Good for McDonald's but not for Italians . . . or for American's when done in America.
Anybody discuss the "slow Meal" movement in Italy yet? (I haven't scoured this thread)
It's not a matter of agree or disagree - it's not an opinion issue. There is a ton of scientific research on nutrition, all of it consistent with the food guide pyramid, and inconsistent with the overwhelmingly popular Atkins / Zone / Carbohydrate Addict / Sugar Busters / Hellers / Eades diets.
I'm friends with lots of scientists and clinicians in this area, and this stuff drives them crazy. It's like evolution to biologists, or free trade to economists - it's so obvious and clear to people who are scientists in the area, but most people seem to think they know better.
1. There is absolutely zero empirical research demonstrating the effectiveness of these diets. The arguments come from historical ramblings about mummies and pseudoscientific and inaccurate babble about insulin and ketosis.
2. All of the research supports the basic food pyramid, i.e., that most of your calories should come from the bottom category of breads and pastas and rice, etc., and fewer of your calories should come from fat. The low-carb diets reverse this, so that most of your calories are coming from fat, and little from carbs, fruits, and veggies
3. There are two ways a diet like this reduces your weight:
a. By reducing your overall calorie intake, which will happen if you massively restrict a huge portion of your food.
b. By putting you into ketosis, which diminishes your appetite and makes you lose water.
Neither of these are genuine methods of long-term weight loss.
4. When Atkins initially published his book 30 years ago, it was very popular, and then discredited by scientists. So he waited a couple of decades, and is now at it again.
5. Long-term use of a low-carb diet leads to increased risk of CVD and cancer, among other things - basically, you lose the health benefits provided by basing your diet on all the great foods at the base of the pyramid.
6. In order to sell a diet book (and recipe books, and foods, and vitamins and herbs, and videos, and classes, etc.), you have to be different. You're not going to sell your products if you simply restate basic science - how boring. Plus the basic science says it's hard to lose weight - you've got to consume less and exercise more.
7. Fat tastes good. Even better than the bottom of the pyramid foods, like breads, pasta, rice, etc., at least to most of us. That's why these diets are attractive to people. "I can eat good tasting food, and still lose weight!"</strong><hr></blockquote>
I greet you, BRussell. Thank you for responding to my posting. I don't have time to repsond right now (look at my time stamps-gotta get some sleep!).
I did find some links for you to take a look at. Yes, some are from the Atkins Web Site, but one is from NBC. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
I am constantly amazed that anyone cares about anyone else's obesity.
If it were suddenly disclosed that the #1 killer of adults in America was ice skating accidents, would you rush out to help ban ice skates? Would you consider it to be a "good thing" if a stigma was created against ice skating?
It's called free will. Let people eat whatever they want. People who consider thin people attractive will continue to do so. People who consider fat people attractive will continue to do so. Some people will die of obesity-related causes. Everyone else will die of something else.
ColorClassic, I for one, never mentioned anything about legislating anything.
I do think, though, that it is fascinating. Certain things are SYMPTOMS of deeper conditions. The fact that Obesity has now eclipsed smoking related causes of death in America says bookloads worth about the way we live here, now, under the timeclock and on the stripmall.
For one it might just mean that there are fewer smoking related deaths (but that's not the case)
Distance from America may provide different insights about things that many of us Americans may be too close to see. I love America, I'm American, I'm not about to move anywhere else, but that doesn't mean that some of what has been said by the fellow American in Belgium doesn't sound right. Particularly because I have travelled alot and have seen different relationships that different groups of people have to such things as leisure, meals, gathering with families, happiness, etc. In some of these places the imposition of a fast food franchise seems like a martian landing . . . and it really also seems like something ugly. And, its often the sign that some fundamental shift in these people's relationship to time and place is probably taking place, probably, due to external economic pressures. I'm not saying lets stop change, just noting it. And saying that many people who experience these 'martian landings' in their ancestral landscape feel sadness and fear that what they know and love will be changed in ways that they don't want. What will thay change into...? ...
When I drive across America (which I do allot) and I see endless expanses of the same few mega-stores and fast food chains, and I see the happiness that these things bring to the people and the beauty they confer on the landscape I can't help but feeling alittle AMBIVALENT. In a way, they are comforting because they are familiar, they are the places of ONE great culture... a mono-culture, made up of many different middle-managers in the same orange and red uniforms and caps. But this is the culture that we pay for, and in the franchise world, by definition "what we pay for we must want."
never mind that that is false. . . and that we don't have a real choice . . . whether you want it BIGGIE SIZED is a false choice: fat or fatter.
The point is is that we are so accustomed to this landscape of gigantic parking lots that stretch from city to city that we don't even see them anymore, and when you move to a place where people have a different relationship to their landscape (still), you can see the TARMAC back home.
I will note though, that Belgium (except for the South and some of the older city centers) is the ugliest European country, and is like one large suburb of concrete and STREET LIGHTS!!
(I know you know what I'm talking about Mr. Belgium)
But only a Jackass flips out when criticized. *ehem*Gr...
Anyway, maybe its because the reactionary could see that in discussing American obesity we are talking about a SYMPTOM of something deeper that's the reason they had to flip out and take it as some kind of anti-patriot attack on America. . . its always political in some eyes
Whoppers sure do taste good though.
...w/ cheese!!
(if you can call it that)
So, ColorClassic, I for one, never mentioned anything about legislating anything, let it all grow, its beautifull in its tragic inevitability
I totally agree that Italian food in the south is excellent. Went to the heel of Italy, Puglia, and in one week I gained about 5kilos. (hehe, talking about fat americans ).
to pfflam:
I TOTALLY agree this county, Belgium, is the ugliest in Europe. I live in Brussels and its depressing as hell. Grey streets, grey people, grey skies... everything grey. And its almost always raining and cold. For some freak weather anomaly its -10celsius today and its just too much. Luckily Paris is 1h30 away by train, Amsterdam is 2h, London also about 2h. And Rome is 1h30 by plane. So, weekends can be easily be spent NOT HERE. Also, there is tons of work here (almost every company has their HQ here), almost everyone speaks english, and its a great mix of all the european cultures. Overall, I guess I'm taking the 'mediocre/average' approach... its not too bad, and its not too good either. See, I'm still American!
Also, I liked your post in general. Very true. Thats what McDonalds a success. It was a familiar site and you knew that you would always get the same 'good' quality food at each and every one of them. It made/makes you feel more at home anywhere you are.
I will admit that when I travel to foreign countries, I feel more at ease if I know there is a McDonalds somewhere in case the local food (and I taste it all first) really sucks.
to groverat:
I dunno what to say. I have my opinions and you have yours. You, for some reason, absolutely hate my guts and I honestly don't give a damn. You are not objective about this whole ordeal and I'm sorry that it has to come down to you having a need to insult me in one way or another. I am saying things the way I see them and feel about them after putting together many many different points of view.
If you love the US so much as you seem to do, the best thing you can do to improve it is to also be critical of it. There are things that are just not right with American society and it drives me nuts when I see it and see that fellow Americans think of it as being normal.
in regards to your outburst of 'laziness' to Europeans because of the socialists, do you realize that Europe is not the USA? You, and many others, seem to forget that. US laws are NOT the best for EVERYONE in the world! This is what you are implying. Just because you are jealous that because I live and work in Europe I have 25 days of paid vacation each year doesn't make me or this continent a bad place!!! In France you have even more time off and legally can only work 35hours a week. Is this bad???
In Italy there is the 'siesta' from 1pm to about 3pm where most shops are closed... but then they are open until 8pm. In many European countries kids still go to school on Saturdays. And the list goes on and on...
I AM SORRY IF THERE IS MORE TIME TO ENJOY FREE TIME IN EUROPE THAN THERE IS IN THE USA! I AM TRUELY HONESTLY SORRY THAT I CAN ENJOY LIFE!
I felt sorry for a great friend of mine who works in Canada for my same company and who after more than one year working for them, hadn't gotten a single day off and once the division ( a .com) went down the drain, got a 2 day notice and not a dime more (no severance, no nothing) and he was the best sales guy they had by far. And this ain't just any .com... it was part of one of a huge US multinational.
What freaks me out more is that everyone in North America thinks this is NORMAL. Jesus people... come ENJOY life a bit, come over here to Europe! But then again, there are bogey men and socialists everywhere that will try and abduct you and do experiments on you and then sell your body parts to the Taliban.
look when this thread started it was meant as a joke against americans and all you are doing is talking seriously??? why??? who cares whos fat plump dumpy bean pole or what ever the point that was being made is that americans are lazy not individuals so dont call me all the names but you are very lazy in an earlier link about the bombs this is depicted clearly (faulty batteries) now you would rather kill your selves than do things properly its insane and if it was just a one off then so be it but you seem to have a knack for **** ups
sorry if i offend anyone and im not saying any other nation is perfect
<strong>Anyway, maybe its because the reactionary could see that in discussing American obesity we are talking about a SYMPTOM of something deeper that's the reason they had to flip out and take it as some kind of anti-patriot attack on America. . . its always political in some eyes </strong><hr></blockquote>
Everything I like about America was destroyed long before I was born. I have no quibbles with your opinions on fast food and what it signifies. McDonald's restaurants look like cancerous tumors to me.
What I was mystified by were posts like Artman's:
[quote]<strong>
Just saw this fact on the news...
there are over 300,000 weight related injuries reported every year.
Shape up people! Boycott bloated, junk food resturants! Excercise! Diet!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would anyone care where anyone else ate or what weight they were?
<strong>I am constantly amazed that anyone cares about anyone else's obesity.</strong><hr></blockquote>I really don't understand your statement - are you saying you just don't care about the health and well-being of other people? Satcher said that obesity is quickly becoming the number one preventable killer of Americans. And you say "I don't know why anyone cares?"
Do you feel the same way about AIDS - who cares if people are dying? I just don't get it. Are you just suggesting that we shouldn't pass any laws against overeating? If that's it, no one here has suggested any kind of legislative action at all, I don't believe.
But you seem to be going further, by saying that we not only shouldn't have laws, but we shouldn't, as individuals, even care about the health of others. So should we stop medical research, get rid of dietitians, remove nutrition facts labels, etc.? One of the reasons your statement bothers me is that I'm married to a professional in this field - should she stop caring about other people's obesity, too?
I don't mean to flame you, but this is a belief that always bothers me. Basically: if it's legal, it's OK and therefore shouldn't be criticized or discussed. We shouldn't stigmatize any behavior that's legal, we shouldn't criticize anyone for what they do, we shouldn't judge people. Shouldn't there be any values or principles that go beyond the law?
For example, teens having children is legal - should we not care about that?
I'm sure I've mis-characterized your attitude, but you've repeated your above statement a few times now, and I'd like to know what it means exactly.
actually, if you want to be strictly an asshole, you can say you care about other people's weight because their medical bills drive up your insurance costs with preventable diseases/problems.
<strong>I really don't understand your statement - are you saying you just don't care about the health and well-being of other people? Satcher said that obesity is quickly becoming the number one preventable killer of Americans. And you say "I don't know why anyone cares?"
Do you feel the same way about AIDS - who cares if people are dying?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're not likely to catch obesity from anyone. And you can't even get it accidentally. Even more than for HIV, people who get obesity do so through their own actions. What difference does it make to you?
[quote]<strong>
But you seem to be going further, by saying that we not only shouldn't have laws, but we shouldn't, as individuals, even care about the health of others. So should we stop medical research, get rid of dietitians, remove nutrition facts labels, etc.? One of the reasons your statement bothers me is that I'm married to a professional in this field - should she stop caring about other people's obesity, too?</strong><hr></blockquote>
But your wife is being paid to worry about other peoples' obesity. What about other people's willing self-inducement of a disease bothers you? At least people try to discourage smoking because it smells bad to other people and (theoretically) damages other peoples' health. As I said above, you're not likely to catch it.
[quote]<strong>
I don't mean to flame you, but this is a belief that always bothers me. Basically: if it's legal, it's OK and therefore shouldn't be criticized or discussed. We shouldn't stigmatize any behavior that's legal, we shouldn't criticize anyone for what they do, we shouldn't judge people. Shouldn't there be any values or principles that go beyond the law?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Being obese is a moral failing? What about foolishly going outside in the rain and catching a cold? Here again we have someone else knowingly doing something which will probably make them ill. What business is it of yours (or anyone else's)?
Comments
you read his second statement though? that one makes a bit more sense, at least it did to me.
and i took exception to the same phrases you did from the first one.
<strong>Have you read the Atkins diet book?
What specific part didn't you agree with? Why?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not a matter of agree or disagree - it's not an opinion issue. There is a ton of scientific research on nutrition, all of it consistent with the food guide pyramid, and inconsistent with the overwhelmingly popular Atkins / Zone / Carbohydrate Addict / Sugar Busters / Hellers / Eades diets.
I'm friends with lots of scientists and clinicians in this area, and this stuff drives them crazy. It's like evolution to biologists, or free trade to economists - it's so obvious and clear to people who are scientists in the area, but most people seem to think they know better.
1. There is absolutely zero empirical research demonstrating the effectiveness of these diets. The arguments come from historical ramblings about mummies and pseudoscientific and inaccurate babble about insulin and ketosis.
2. All of the research supports the basic food pyramid, i.e., that most of your calories should come from the bottom category of breads and pastas and rice, etc., and fewer of your calories should come from fat. The low-carb diets reverse this, so that most of your calories are coming from fat, and little from carbs, fruits, and veggies
3. There are two ways a diet like this reduces your weight:
a. By reducing your overall calorie intake, which will happen if you massively restrict a huge portion of your food.
b. By putting you into ketosis, which diminishes your appetite and makes you lose water.
Neither of these are genuine methods of long-term weight loss.
4. When Atkins initially published his book 30 years ago, it was very popular, and then discredited by scientists. So he waited a couple of decades, and is now at it again.
5. Long-term use of a low-carb diet leads to increased risk of CVD and cancer, among other things - basically, you lose the health benefits provided by basing your diet on all the great foods at the base of the pyramid.
6. In order to sell a diet book (and recipe books, and foods, and vitamins and herbs, and videos, and classes, etc.), you have to be different. You're not going to sell your products if you simply restate basic science - how boring. Plus the basic science says it's hard to lose weight - you've got to consume less and exercise more.
7. Fat tastes good. Even better than the bottom of the pyramid foods, like breads, pasta, rice, etc., at least to most of us. That's why these diets are attractive to people. "I can eat good tasting food, and still lose weight!"
Ingredients:
2 tbsp Panang curry paste. Be careful to get pure curry paste and not stuff that's already flavoured with the rest of the ingredients.
1 14 oz can of coconut milk. Let can sit upright overnight.
1 tbsp Nam Pla (Thai fish sauce). Get the stuff that's watery, brown, and partially transparent, not the viscous stuff.
2 tbsp golden brown sugar.
1 pineapple ring in juice or syrup.
1/4 cup whole basil. Preferably Thai or purple.
Directions:
Skim the heavy cream off the top of the coconut milk can and heat in a saucepan until boiling. The cream will be approximately half of the volume of the can. Add the curry paste and cook for 3 minutes, stirring continuously. Add the rest of the coconut milk and return to a boil. Taste to determine correct level of spiciness. Keep in mind you can use as little sauce per volume of rice as you want, but it is difficult to exceed the spiciness of the sauce at this point without adding more curry now.
Cut the pineapple ring into bite-sized pieces (I prefer eighths) and add to the sauce. Cook for one minute. Add brown sugar and fish sauce. Cook for 2-3 minutes.
Remove from heat and add the basil. The ambient heat in the sauce should be just enough to make the leaves wither and absorb their taste.
Serve over rice, being judicious with its application until you are experienced with its strength and your tolerance for spice. I prefer to wash my rice before cooking it, but if this is a means to provide nutrition for the day, I would suggest not washing off the rice flour. You'll lose a lot of the nutrients.
For a more robust meal, add sliced duck or chicken to the sauce after the sugar and fish sauce are mixed in. Cook the normal 2-3 minutes for a pre-roasted duck or until thoroughly cooked for raw chicken. I will occasionally pan-fry the roasted duck until it's crispy and pour the curry sauce over it and the rice at the same time.
The above sauce recipe has proven to be just enough for 2 cups uncooked rice in my experience.
-- ShadyG
there are over 300,000 weight related injuries reported every year.
Shape up people! Boycott bloated, junk food resturants! Excercise! Diet!
[QB]
What am I getting to? I'm worried that the cultural implications of fast food (quantity and no substance over quality) will become a common way of thinking for my and future generations of Europeans will cut corners, become superficial, and look at speed speed speed and make sure its just cheaper and to hell with quality... lets just sell more! Jaguar started going that way. Only recently have they gotten their act together... but otherwise, they were making some of the worst cars in the world. The common saying was that if you get a Jag, you better be rich enough to buy two of them... one will always be in the garage getting repaired! (just to clarify for the rabid USA #1 patriots, I am NOT blaming this on the USA... yeeesh).QB]<hr></blockquote>
You should be blaming the turn-around of Jaguar on the US. There was this little US company that bought them out a few years ago. Perhaps you've heard of them..... Ford?
Well you certainly fooled me.
[quote]I've just been able to step away from the USA for a while be able to see American life from different perspectives instead of the closed and padded view most Americans like to think of themselves as being in.<hr></blockquote>
So if you were to be asked what your nationality is right now, you would register as an American?
Give it up, you're not a ****ing American. Don't speak for us, thanks.
I have no problem with critique of America. I have a big problem with whining idiots who have no brains.
[quote]Its just that the USA basically created junk food and has been pushing it like crazy over here these last few decades.<hr></blockquote>
1) The USA did not create junk food.
2) The "USA" hasn't been "pushing" it.
You're confusing multi-national corporations for the U.S. once again.
[quote]Case in point, when you have the money and want to buy QUALITY do you buy American luxury goods or European?<hr></blockquote>
The attraction to European products is the fact that they are European. That's why you get those things.
What is the practical different between a friggin' Rolex and a Fossil watch?
I'll tell you what the difference is, genius, price and image.
It's absolutely hilarious that you would accuse the U.S. of being obsessed with impression and you are in EUROPE.
There isn't a god-damned thing authentic about Europe. ****ing puppet monarchies and half-assed socialism covering up deep-rooted racism. If there's any body of people on the earth who are logically excluded from pointing fingers about artifice it's the ****ing Europeans.
Japan has Europe's ass kicked for quality in cars, too. Sorry, you lose there again.
[quote]And whats wrong with socialism? You act like its a damn disease or something! Sure, too much socialism sucks, but heck, its done great things here.<hr></blockquote>
Well, it is a disease. It eats away at personal freedom like a virus. Just look at the EU's recent attempts to make racism illegal.
It's done great things there. . . that's hilarious. Look at Germany's economy. The same Germany that fines Wal-Mart Stores for working too much. Going right down the ****ing shitter.
[quote]After 10+ years here, you come to appreciate the goods and the bads of my beloved USA as well as the good and the bads of Europe.<hr></blockquote>
That's funny, you seem unable to mention a good thing about the U.S.
[quote]But why do some of you take what I say so damn litterally? Be a bit more open minded!<hr></blockquote>
You whine about the U.S. making Italian kids fat and I'm not open-minded.
Think before you speak.
[quote]You get used to mediocre, and it carries on to how you live life and your attitude twords life and work and society.<hr></blockquote>
You act as if Europe wasn't about mediocrity before McDonald's. Arguably the most racist and backward continent on the planet.
The land of 4 day work-weeks and months of vacation. Yes, they certainly pride themselves in their work.
You are one condescending ****ing prick. If I brought you to the deep south and fed your punk-ass some collard greens and chitlins you'd whine for a "tourist trap" restaurant. Maybe they don't like the food because they're not used to it, you elitist moron.
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
Today in the news it was revealed that OBESITY in AMERICA has now eclipsed smoking as the NUMBER 1 (that's #1!!) cause of DEATH
Just because people do something out of ease and because of the pressures of lack of alternatives, due to the increasing lack of time, does not mean that it is a good thing. In other words: just because Italians now frequent McDonald's because they (like everybody now) have no time, no energy to waste, and fewer and fewer alternatives, does not mean that their doing so is a good thing for them. Good for McDonald's but not for Italians . . . or for American's when done in America.
Anybody discuss the "slow Meal" movement in Italy yet? (I haven't scoured this thread)
<strong>
It's not a matter of agree or disagree - it's not an opinion issue. There is a ton of scientific research on nutrition, all of it consistent with the food guide pyramid, and inconsistent with the overwhelmingly popular Atkins / Zone / Carbohydrate Addict / Sugar Busters / Hellers / Eades diets.
I'm friends with lots of scientists and clinicians in this area, and this stuff drives them crazy. It's like evolution to biologists, or free trade to economists - it's so obvious and clear to people who are scientists in the area, but most people seem to think they know better.
1. There is absolutely zero empirical research demonstrating the effectiveness of these diets. The arguments come from historical ramblings about mummies and pseudoscientific and inaccurate babble about insulin and ketosis.
2. All of the research supports the basic food pyramid, i.e., that most of your calories should come from the bottom category of breads and pastas and rice, etc., and fewer of your calories should come from fat. The low-carb diets reverse this, so that most of your calories are coming from fat, and little from carbs, fruits, and veggies
3. There are two ways a diet like this reduces your weight:
a. By reducing your overall calorie intake, which will happen if you massively restrict a huge portion of your food.
b. By putting you into ketosis, which diminishes your appetite and makes you lose water.
Neither of these are genuine methods of long-term weight loss.
4. When Atkins initially published his book 30 years ago, it was very popular, and then discredited by scientists. So he waited a couple of decades, and is now at it again.
5. Long-term use of a low-carb diet leads to increased risk of CVD and cancer, among other things - basically, you lose the health benefits provided by basing your diet on all the great foods at the base of the pyramid.
6. In order to sell a diet book (and recipe books, and foods, and vitamins and herbs, and videos, and classes, etc.), you have to be different. You're not going to sell your products if you simply restate basic science - how boring. Plus the basic science says it's hard to lose weight - you've got to consume less and exercise more.
7. Fat tastes good. Even better than the bottom of the pyramid foods, like breads, pasta, rice, etc., at least to most of us. That's why these diets are attractive to people. "I can eat good tasting food, and still lose weight!"</strong><hr></blockquote>
I greet you, BRussell. Thank you for responding to my posting. I don't have time to repsond right now (look at my time stamps-gotta get some sleep!).
I did find some links for you to take a look at. Yes, some are from the Atkins Web Site, but one is from NBC. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Here are the links:
NBC: <a href="http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/592329.asp"; target="_blank">http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/592329.asp</a>;
iVillage: <a href="http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/herbs/qas/0,5090,5776,00.html"; target="_blank">http://www.ivillage.com/diet/features/herbs/qas/0,5090,5776,00.html</a>;
From the Atkins site: <a href="http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=31"; target="_blank">http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=31</a>;
Atkins response to the American Heart Association's claims about high-protein, controlled carbohydrate diets:
<a href="http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=10"; target="_blank">http://www.atkinscenter.com/news_story.asp?newsID=10</a>;
I'll be back tomorrow and will endeavor to respond as thoughtfully and as respectfully as I am able. Thank you.
If you don't hear from me, then I'm dead of a heart attack and you were right all along
Aries 1B
If it were suddenly disclosed that the #1 killer of adults in America was ice skating accidents, would you rush out to help ban ice skates? Would you consider it to be a "good thing" if a stigma was created against ice skating?
It's called free will. Let people eat whatever they want. People who consider thin people attractive will continue to do so. People who consider fat people attractive will continue to do so. Some people will die of obesity-related causes. Everyone else will die of something else.
Who cares?
Fortunately, this situation changed rapidly once I got out of Rome itself. The food's a lot better in the mezzogiorno.
I do think, though, that it is fascinating. Certain things are SYMPTOMS of deeper conditions. The fact that Obesity has now eclipsed smoking related causes of death in America says bookloads worth about the way we live here, now, under the timeclock and on the stripmall.
For one it might just mean that there are fewer smoking related deaths (but that's not the case)
Distance from America may provide different insights about things that many of us Americans may be too close to see. I love America, I'm American, I'm not about to move anywhere else, but that doesn't mean that some of what has been said by the fellow American in Belgium doesn't sound right. Particularly because I have travelled alot and have seen different relationships that different groups of people have to such things as leisure, meals, gathering with families, happiness, etc. In some of these places the imposition of a fast food franchise seems like a martian landing . . . and it really also seems like something ugly. And, its often the sign that some fundamental shift in these people's relationship to time and place is probably taking place, probably, due to external economic pressures. I'm not saying lets stop change, just noting it. And saying that many people who experience these 'martian landings' in their ancestral landscape feel sadness and fear that what they know and love will be changed in ways that they don't want. What will thay change into...? ...
When I drive across America (which I do allot) and I see endless expanses of the same few mega-stores and fast food chains, and I see the happiness that these things bring to the people and the beauty they confer on the landscape I can't help but feeling alittle AMBIVALENT. In a way, they are comforting because they are familiar, they are the places of ONE great culture... a mono-culture, made up of many different middle-managers in the same orange and red uniforms and caps. But this is the culture that we pay for, and in the franchise world, by definition "what we pay for we must want."
never mind that that is false. . . and that we don't have a real choice . . . whether you want it BIGGIE SIZED is a false choice: fat or fatter.
The point is is that we are so accustomed to this landscape of gigantic parking lots that stretch from city to city that we don't even see them anymore, and when you move to a place where people have a different relationship to their landscape (still), you can see the TARMAC back home.
I will note though, that Belgium (except for the South and some of the older city centers) is the ugliest European country, and is like one large suburb of concrete and STREET LIGHTS!!
(I know you know what I'm talking about Mr. Belgium)
But only a Jackass flips out when criticized. *ehem*Gr...
Anyway, maybe its because the reactionary could see that in discussing American obesity we are talking about a SYMPTOM of something deeper that's the reason they had to flip out and take it as some kind of anti-patriot attack on America. . . its always political in some eyes
Whoppers sure do taste good though.
...w/ cheese!!
(if you can call it that)
So, ColorClassic, I for one, never mentioned anything about legislating anything, let it all grow, its beautifull in its tragic inevitability
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
I totally agree that Italian food in the south is excellent. Went to the heel of Italy, Puglia, and in one week I gained about 5kilos. (hehe, talking about fat americans
to pfflam:
I TOTALLY agree this county, Belgium, is the ugliest in Europe. I live in Brussels and its depressing as hell. Grey streets, grey people, grey skies... everything grey. And its almost always raining and cold. For some freak weather anomaly its -10celsius today and its just too much. Luckily Paris is 1h30 away by train, Amsterdam is 2h, London also about 2h. And Rome is 1h30 by plane. So, weekends can be easily be spent NOT HERE. Also, there is tons of work here (almost every company has their HQ here), almost everyone speaks english, and its a great mix of all the european cultures. Overall, I guess I'm taking the 'mediocre/average' approach... its not too bad, and its not too good either. See, I'm still American!
Also, I liked your post in general. Very true. Thats what McDonalds a success. It was a familiar site and you knew that you would always get the same 'good' quality food at each and every one of them. It made/makes you feel more at home anywhere you are.
I will admit that when I travel to foreign countries, I feel more at ease if I know there is a McDonalds somewhere in case the local food (and I taste it all first) really sucks.
to groverat:
I dunno what to say. I have my opinions and you have yours. You, for some reason, absolutely hate my guts and I honestly don't give a damn. You are not objective about this whole ordeal and I'm sorry that it has to come down to you having a need to insult me in one way or another. I am saying things the way I see them and feel about them after putting together many many different points of view.
If you love the US so much as you seem to do, the best thing you can do to improve it is to also be critical of it. There are things that are just not right with American society and it drives me nuts when I see it and see that fellow Americans think of it as being normal.
in regards to your outburst of 'laziness' to Europeans because of the socialists, do you realize that Europe is not the USA? You, and many others, seem to forget that. US laws are NOT the best for EVERYONE in the world! This is what you are implying. Just because you are jealous that because I live and work in Europe I have 25 days of paid vacation each year doesn't make me or this continent a bad place!!! In France you have even more time off and legally can only work 35hours a week. Is this bad???
In Italy there is the 'siesta' from 1pm to about 3pm where most shops are closed... but then they are open until 8pm. In many European countries kids still go to school on Saturdays. And the list goes on and on...
I AM SORRY IF THERE IS MORE TIME TO ENJOY FREE TIME IN EUROPE THAN THERE IS IN THE USA! I AM TRUELY HONESTLY SORRY THAT I CAN ENJOY LIFE!
I felt sorry for a great friend of mine who works in Canada for my same company and who after more than one year working for them, hadn't gotten a single day off and once the division ( a .com) went down the drain, got a 2 day notice and not a dime more (no severance, no nothing) and he was the best sales guy they had by far. And this ain't just any .com... it was part of one of a huge US multinational.
What freaks me out more is that everyone in North America thinks this is NORMAL. Jesus people... come ENJOY life a bit, come over here to Europe! But then again, there are bogey men and socialists everywhere that will try and abduct you and do experiments on you and then sell your body parts to the Taliban.
sorry if i offend anyone and im not saying any other nation is perfect
<strong>Anyway, maybe its because the reactionary could see that in discussing American obesity we are talking about a SYMPTOM of something deeper that's the reason they had to flip out and take it as some kind of anti-patriot attack on America. . . its always political in some eyes </strong><hr></blockquote>
Everything I like about America was destroyed long before I was born. I have no quibbles with your opinions on fast food and what it signifies. McDonald's restaurants look like cancerous tumors to me.
What I was mystified by were posts like Artman's:
[quote]<strong>
Just saw this fact on the news...
there are over 300,000 weight related injuries reported every year.
Shape up people! Boycott bloated, junk food resturants! Excercise! Diet!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would anyone care where anyone else ate or what weight they were?
<strong>I am constantly amazed that anyone cares about anyone else's obesity.</strong><hr></blockquote>I really don't understand your statement - are you saying you just don't care about the health and well-being of other people? Satcher said that obesity is quickly becoming the number one preventable killer of Americans. And you say "I don't know why anyone cares?"
Do you feel the same way about AIDS - who cares if people are dying? I just don't get it. Are you just suggesting that we shouldn't pass any laws against overeating? If that's it, no one here has suggested any kind of legislative action at all, I don't believe.
But you seem to be going further, by saying that we not only shouldn't have laws, but we shouldn't, as individuals, even care about the health of others. So should we stop medical research, get rid of dietitians, remove nutrition facts labels, etc.? One of the reasons your statement bothers me is that I'm married to a professional in this field - should she stop caring about other people's obesity, too?
I don't mean to flame you, but this is a belief that always bothers me. Basically: if it's legal, it's OK and therefore shouldn't be criticized or discussed. We shouldn't stigmatize any behavior that's legal, we shouldn't criticize anyone for what they do, we shouldn't judge people. Shouldn't there be any values or principles that go beyond the law?
For example, teens having children is legal - should we not care about that?
I'm sure I've mis-characterized your attitude, but you've repeated your above statement a few times now, and I'd like to know what it means exactly.
if you wanted to be an asshole that is.
<strong>I really don't understand your statement - are you saying you just don't care about the health and well-being of other people? Satcher said that obesity is quickly becoming the number one preventable killer of Americans. And you say "I don't know why anyone cares?"
Do you feel the same way about AIDS - who cares if people are dying?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're not likely to catch obesity from anyone. And you can't even get it accidentally. Even more than for HIV, people who get obesity do so through their own actions. What difference does it make to you?
[quote]<strong>
But you seem to be going further, by saying that we not only shouldn't have laws, but we shouldn't, as individuals, even care about the health of others. So should we stop medical research, get rid of dietitians, remove nutrition facts labels, etc.? One of the reasons your statement bothers me is that I'm married to a professional in this field - should she stop caring about other people's obesity, too?</strong><hr></blockquote>
But your wife is being paid to worry about other peoples' obesity. What about other people's willing self-inducement of a disease bothers you? At least people try to discourage smoking because it smells bad to other people and (theoretically) damages other peoples' health. As I said above, you're not likely to catch it.
[quote]<strong>
I don't mean to flame you, but this is a belief that always bothers me. Basically: if it's legal, it's OK and therefore shouldn't be criticized or discussed. We shouldn't stigmatize any behavior that's legal, we shouldn't criticize anyone for what they do, we shouldn't judge people. Shouldn't there be any values or principles that go beyond the law?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Being obese is a moral failing? What about foolishly going outside in the rain and catching a cold? Here again we have someone else knowingly doing something which will probably make them ill. What business is it of yours (or anyone else's)?