What nonsense. Daniel Eran Dilgers' articles are some of the best researched, most enlightening content available anywhere.
His vocal, and personally rude, critics are the original trolls from Microsoft's own brand of the Taliban?
Keep up the good work AppleInsider, this debate has brought a great deal of information out into the open for many of us like myself.
"Best researched"?
Yeah, if you think that missing out fundamentals like getting names right is good research (it's Ian Hickson - Hixie is his nickname as even a cursory trip to Wikipedia would have told "Prince").
Seriously, if your quality threshold is so low that you think this is "well-researched" you should probably work for Microsoft in user interface testing.
That advice has never been good advice, even when Flash was apparently "the sh*t".
I've never advised anyone to build any significant part of any website with Flash, because more most people actually want their content searchable.
True about SEO.
How many car dealer websites are all Flash with hidden divs full of keywords? Tons. While the advice not to use all Flash has been given over and over, what a client wants a client gets.
No this isn't MacRumours, it's an(other) AppleInsider post where the very basic facts have been called into question. Can you, in turn, drop the inter-board politics? Not very professional, IMO.
Sorry, I wasn't casting aspersions, I'm just saying we don't have the same policies with regard to how mention of national politics are handled. I have no beef with them. Assuming you're serious, I took out mention of their name in my offending post.
How many car dealer websites are all Flash with hidden divs full of keywords? Tons. While the advice not to use all Flash has been given over and over, what a client wants a client gets.
Ed
Anyone that thinks that kind of SEO works deserves the traffic they will get (none).
Web designers are not artists. Artists would never design web sites.
Not sure what your point is. Art and Design are two very different things. I'm a great designer. I'm a horrible artist. My point is that a Flash movie is not a website. It's a movie. It's a black box. It may be pretty (or more likely... hideous and annoying)... but it's not a website. Google can't read it. Screen readers can't read it. Users can use their back button. You can't even link to "pages" within it. Linking is the very essence of the web. Flash is not the web. It's a movie that's hosted on the web. It should die. That's always been the case. Hopefully it will finally come to pass with HTML5. I'm all for immersive animated websites for certain projects (like movie sites for example)... but if the same thing can be accomplished using standards instead of a black box... why would anyone choose the black box? HTML5 and the canvas element is a GOOD thing.
What nonsense. Daniel Eran Dilgers' articles are some of the best researched, most enlightening content available anywhere.
To the untrained eye, yes they are.
However, once you start to dig deeper, you soon realise that Daniel's articles are very misleading. Data is cherry-picked. Facts are twisted. Only one side of the story is ever reported. Daniel's articles wouldn't even be allowed on Engadget, let alone the real press.
The fact that he owns APPL stock and writes very pro-Apple articles should set the alarm bells off in your head at the very least.
The anti-Flash movement is being fuelled by Apple and Google. There is only one way this can end well for Adobe:
Adobe reads the writing on the wall and creates tools for HTML5.
MS are not supporting Flash for their new mobile platform either.
This is not a conspiracy or a movement.
Flash was not designed for mobile platforms. And mobile platform holders have two choices.
1) To attempt to implement Flash, with all of the performance penalties and risks to stability that involves.
or
2) Support alternative mobile-friendly methods for streaming video etc. and encourage content creators to use those alternative methods.
The better solution for everyone is option 2.
If the dominant mobile hardware vendors move away from Flash, then the content providers will simply shift to supporting hardware-friendly delivery methods.
And the breaking news is...
They already are. The mobile market is too valuable to let it be ruined by bad technology.
This is not a conspiracy, it's just technology doing what it does best. Adapting.
MS are not supporting Flash for their new mobile platform either.
This is not a conspiracy or a movement.
...
This is not a conspiracy, it's just technology doing what it does best. Adapting.
C.
""Microsoft and Adobe are working closely together. While the newest version of Windows Phone won't support Flash at initial availability, both companies are working to include a browser plug-in for the full Flash player in future versions of Windows Phone. More details will be shared at Microsoft MIX next month.""
Forget about us web designers, what about our clients who spent thousands on all Flash sites cause we told them it was the shit. Now it is shit.
Ed
You must be new ( just kidding )
You go back to that customer and tell them about the rapidly changing world they are no a part of. To "stay competitive" in "today's rapid firebusiness world", they are going to have to be able to move quickly and to invest in compelling new technologies... bla bla hblah...
then you hit them with the site redesign.
If adobe were smart, they would be selling an html 5 conversion product.
If they were truly smart they would have "opened" flash and shockwave years ago for adoption into the HTML spec. But they got greedy and never thought they would have a competitor.
When Apple sneezes, the rest of the industry grabs a Kleenex.
The anti-Flash movement is being fuelled by Apple and Google. There is only one way this can end well for Adobe:
Adobe reads the writing on the wall and creates tools for HTML5.
That's far too progressive for a company that has long done nothing but retain it's iron grip on digital image production and internet multimedia content by sabotaging or simply buying out their competition (Macromedia).
They've had years to produce a quality Flash product but have failed to do so. They've had years to revise and refine Photoshop, but only deliver prima facie GUI changes and the inclusion of a handful of new features every 3 years. Updates between that time are sparse to none.
Their recent spat with Apple over Flash has toppled one of their legs. They may feel that Apple will feel the sting of a Flash-less gadget, but it is Adobe that has made the critical mistake. People and businesses don't care about Flash, they care about sales and quarterly statements. In fact, the only people that care about Flash is Adobe.
YouTube and Vimeo have already started offering their content in HTML5. The former redesigned their content for h.264 distribution specifically for the iPhone. This should strike fear in the heart of Adobe as these businesses don't care how it's done, they simply want to deliver multimedia to the waiting masses.
No one is in Adobe's corner because it doesn't benefit them to be. That's business. There are no friends at the end of the day. No loyalty. Everyone follows the dollars.
It's over Adobe. There is no place for proprietary multimedia in the future of the internet. There was certainly a niche for Flash in 1996, but now, things have changed. It's just that more rewarding to see them fall because of their sheer smugness when it comes to their relationship with Apple.
You can be the cock of the walk when you're the only kid in school with a car, but when other's start getting rides, you find that you are quickly the cock of nothing
Adobe today announced an Air environment that will work on mobiles, including the iPhone. Since you can publish to Air from Flash OR use HTML/Javascript I'm assuming Adobe will be going the HTML route with mobile Air for iPhone. Very sensible. Now we need a kick-ass authoring environment from Adobe for HTML5.
Daniel has actually published some excellent long-form technical articles in the past. Its not all rumour and spec.
I am amazed to see real, live actual people from the standards committee commenting on this forum. Don't they realise we are just demented Apple fanbois? Don't take us seriously for God's sake.
In fact, the only people that care about Flash is Adobe.
Right. All Joe Shmoe will care about is "WTF!? I just spent over $800 on this damn thing and it won't work on lots of my favorite websites!?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokheed
It's over Adobe.
Well, not quite yet. They power the majority of web video. Maybe someday it will be different, and the 'Pad will be a viable surfing device that the average Shmoe is satisfied with. In the meantime, expect the wrath to be directed at the expensive device. Nobody cares about flash. Instead, they want devices that just work.
I found this thread very interesting, since the people who were supporting FLash in previous discussion threads have not shown their 'faces' and keeping very quite.
Hmm maybe TEKSTUD or extremeskater will provide some comments on this situation.
To the Adobe slammers on this thread: you fools are a bunch of mindless miscreants delighted to be let out of your cages for a few minutes, let out only on the blatantly false premises of this article written by one of your ilk.
Comments
What nonsense. Daniel Eran Dilgers' articles are some of the best researched, most enlightening content available anywhere.
His vocal, and personally rude, critics are the original trolls from Microsoft's own brand of the Taliban?
Keep up the good work AppleInsider, this debate has brought a great deal of information out into the open for many of us like myself.
"Best researched"?
Yeah, if you think that missing out fundamentals like getting names right is good research (it's Ian Hickson - Hixie is his nickname as even a cursory trip to Wikipedia would have told "Prince").
Seriously, if your quality threshold is so low that you think this is "well-researched" you should probably work for Microsoft in user interface testing.
That advice has never been good advice, even when Flash was apparently "the sh*t".
I've never advised anyone to build any significant part of any website with Flash, because more most people actually want their content searchable.
True about SEO.
How many car dealer websites are all Flash with hidden divs full of keywords? Tons. While the advice not to use all Flash has been given over and over, what a client wants a client gets.
Ed
No this isn't MacRumours, it's an(other) AppleInsider post where the very basic facts have been called into question. Can you, in turn, drop the inter-board politics? Not very professional, IMO.
Sorry, I wasn't casting aspersions, I'm just saying we don't have the same policies with regard to how mention of national politics are handled. I have no beef with them. Assuming you're serious, I took out mention of their name in my offending post.
Web designers are not artists. Artists would never design web sites.
Your kidding right? You are still using tables...aren't you.
Ed
True about SEO.
How many car dealer websites are all Flash with hidden divs full of keywords? Tons. While the advice not to use all Flash has been given over and over, what a client wants a client gets.
Ed
Anyone that thinks that kind of SEO works deserves the traffic they will get (none).
Web designers are not artists. Artists would never design web sites.
Not sure what your point is. Art and Design are two very different things. I'm a great designer. I'm a horrible artist. My point is that a Flash movie is not a website. It's a movie. It's a black box. It may be pretty (or more likely... hideous and annoying)... but it's not a website. Google can't read it. Screen readers can't read it. Users can use their back button. You can't even link to "pages" within it. Linking is the very essence of the web. Flash is not the web. It's a movie that's hosted on the web. It should die. That's always been the case. Hopefully it will finally come to pass with HTML5. I'm all for immersive animated websites for certain projects (like movie sites for example)... but if the same thing can be accomplished using standards instead of a black box... why would anyone choose the black box? HTML5 and the canvas element is a GOOD thing.
Anyone that thinks that kind of SEO works deserves the traffic they will get (none).
I agree.
Ed
Your kidding right?
Ed
Right.
What nonsense. Daniel Eran Dilgers' articles are some of the best researched, most enlightening content available anywhere.
To the untrained eye, yes they are.
However, once you start to dig deeper, you soon realise that Daniel's articles are very misleading. Data is cherry-picked. Facts are twisted. Only one side of the story is ever reported. Daniel's articles wouldn't even be allowed on Engadget, let alone the real press.
The fact that he owns APPL stock and writes very pro-Apple articles should set the alarm bells off in your head at the very least.
The anti-Flash movement is being fuelled by Apple and Google. There is only one way this can end well for Adobe:
Adobe reads the writing on the wall and creates tools for HTML5.
MS are not supporting Flash for their new mobile platform either.
This is not a conspiracy or a movement.
Flash was not designed for mobile platforms. And mobile platform holders have two choices.
1) To attempt to implement Flash, with all of the performance penalties and risks to stability that involves.
or
2) Support alternative mobile-friendly methods for streaming video etc. and encourage content creators to use those alternative methods.
The better solution for everyone is option 2.
If the dominant mobile hardware vendors move away from Flash, then the content providers will simply shift to supporting hardware-friendly delivery methods.
And the breaking news is...
They already are. The mobile market is too valuable to let it be ruined by bad technology.
This is not a conspiracy, it's just technology doing what it does best. Adapting.
C.
MS are not supporting Flash for their new mobile platform either.
This is not a conspiracy or a movement.
...
This is not a conspiracy, it's just technology doing what it does best. Adapting.
C.
""Microsoft and Adobe are working closely together. While the newest version of Windows Phone won't support Flash at initial availability, both companies are working to include a browser plug-in for the full Flash player in future versions of Windows Phone. More details will be shared at Microsoft MIX next month.""
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/14/a...dows-mobile-7/
""Microsoft and Adobe
But we hate Microsoft and Adobe! And Dell!
Forget about us web designers, what about our clients who spent thousands on all Flash sites cause we told them it was the shit. Now it is shit.
Ed
You must be new
You go back to that customer and tell them about the rapidly changing world they are no a part of. To "stay competitive" in "today's rapid firebusiness world", they are going to have to be able to move quickly and to invest in compelling new technologies... bla bla hblah...
then you hit them with the site redesign.
If adobe were smart, they would be selling an html 5 conversion product.
If they were truly smart they would have "opened" flash and shockwave years ago for adoption into the HTML spec. But they got greedy and never thought they would have a competitor.
When Apple sneezes, the rest of the industry grabs a Kleenex.
The anti-Flash movement is being fuelled by Apple and Google. There is only one way this can end well for Adobe:
Adobe reads the writing on the wall and creates tools for HTML5.
That's far too progressive for a company that has long done nothing but retain it's iron grip on digital image production and internet multimedia content by sabotaging or simply buying out their competition (Macromedia).
They've had years to produce a quality Flash product but have failed to do so. They've had years to revise and refine Photoshop, but only deliver prima facie GUI changes and the inclusion of a handful of new features every 3 years. Updates between that time are sparse to none.
Their recent spat with Apple over Flash has toppled one of their legs. They may feel that Apple will feel the sting of a Flash-less gadget, but it is Adobe that has made the critical mistake. People and businesses don't care about Flash, they care about sales and quarterly statements. In fact, the only people that care about Flash is Adobe.
YouTube and Vimeo have already started offering their content in HTML5. The former redesigned their content for h.264 distribution specifically for the iPhone. This should strike fear in the heart of Adobe as these businesses don't care how it's done, they simply want to deliver multimedia to the waiting masses.
No one is in Adobe's corner because it doesn't benefit them to be. That's business. There are no friends at the end of the day. No loyalty. Everyone follows the dollars.
It's over Adobe. There is no place for proprietary multimedia in the future of the internet. There was certainly a niche for Flash in 1996, but now, things have changed. It's just that more rewarding to see them fall because of their sheer smugness when it comes to their relationship with Apple.
You can be the cock of the walk when you're the only kid in school with a car, but when other's start getting rides, you find that you are quickly the cock of nothing
Daniel has actually published some excellent long-form technical articles in the past. Its not all rumour and spec.
I am amazed to see real, live actual people from the standards committee commenting on this forum. Don't they realise we are just demented Apple fanbois? Don't take us seriously for God's sake.
In fact, the only people that care about Flash is Adobe.
Right. All Joe Shmoe will care about is "WTF!? I just spent over $800 on this damn thing and it won't work on lots of my favorite websites!?"
It's over Adobe.
Well, not quite yet. They power the majority of web video. Maybe someday it will be different, and the 'Pad will be a viable surfing device that the average Shmoe is satisfied with. In the meantime, expect the wrath to be directed at the expensive device. Nobody cares about flash. Instead, they want devices that just work.
Hmm maybe TEKSTUD or extremeskater will provide some comments on this situation.
To the rest of you: read John Nack's response on his blog: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/02...ing_html5.html
Fear? But they do their own stunts..
ONE OF THE BEST F!NG MUSIC VIDEOS OF ALL TIME. Screw this Lady GaGa garbage, man... This IS THE BENCHMARK.