Yea that's my point. When Europe is perfect then they can speak up. Considering they are the source of most of the fighting in the 20 century I'd say they have some work to do.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
If in order to speak you need to be perfect, then you won't need a tongue.
No European has made the statement that Europe is perfect in this forum. No one is fool enough to make such a statement even if he love his country.
I suppose that somebody has talked to powell first , but with no response, so they make publical explanations. That's what i suppose, i haven't got any clues on this : i a m not in the secret of french diplomatia.
Of course it did that on purpose , but for what goals , difficult to say, i may ask him the question but i doubt that i have the real explanation. However i don't know this guy , he won't reply to me anyway.
When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass.<hr></blockquote>
This is interesting to me...a very American statement. I say this because sentiments like it come straight out of the history book: when the United States joined World War I in 1917, General Pershing landed in France, and he announced, "Lafayette, we are here!"
Stirring words.
[For those who don't know, General Lafayette was instrumental in both arranging substantial French help against the British and fighting in the Revolutionary War]
The only point of my post is that a crime is a crime, and it is stupid to blame US foreign policy for Osama's gang. There are plenty of other real things to blame US foreign policy for, but this isn't one of them.
<strong>I suppose that somebody has talked to powell first , but with no response, so they make publical explanations. That's what i suppose, i haven't got any clues on this : i a m not in the secret of french diplomatia.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd bet you supposed wrong. Even the International Red Cross had to be reminded of its own ****ing policies when it came to the US and detainees from Afghanistan.
I think that its really quite simple. THe soviet Union was collapsing for a very long time, due mostly to the intrinsic unworkability of its system, as well as a constant and concerted effort by the West to combat it and to stop the spread of its ideology. Its really pretty damn idiotic to put in the place of that understanding the notion that the second most powerful government in the world freaked out when Reagan called them 'evil' and then spontaneoulsy collapsed.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's really quite simple. That's not even near an accurate representation of what I've written here. You created a straw man and then knocked him over. Whatever pleases you I guess.
[quote] Glad to see they've found something for their unemployed to do.*
*yes, i know that was low. but it was too good to pass up. sorry. <hr></blockquote>
Who the hell is unemployed? The guy with the doctorate teaching me? Or myself, a 20 year old student? Maybe my parents? You do realize the best engineering schools in France are free? You do realize my point was criticizing the center of the world for not having proper free education? No, you probably don't, because according to you, this was too good to pass up. I hope you're sorry for being so foolish.
[quote] SYN, answer this. Remember Interpol and the Olympics?
French intelligence. <hr></blockquote>
And? Where have I said France was the center of the world? Where have I said some other country was irrelevant? Could you please enlighten me instead of posting smart-alec remarks that only amuse the 12 year old members here who have severe attention span disorder?
[quote]SYN, I am quite sympathetic to many of your arguments, but this piece is wrong. US arrogance did not kill 3000 innocent people, 15 or so hijackers (mostly Saudi nationals) killed 3000 people <hr></blockquote>
I agree with this. However, one has to realize that what happened perhaps wouldn't have if it wasn't for the US' interventionism. I'm not defending anything, just saying that just like pearl Harbor, if you see this as a blind act of barbary, then you're sadly mistaken. I do appreciate your level-headedness.
[quote]If Europe were a little more even handed that would be nice. Rather than fly off the handel ever time they see a brown skinned person bound and blindfolded while in transport from a war zone to a detention center. Also if they could apply the same rules to every aspect of this war that would be nice too. <hr></blockquote>
The prisoners are not treated correctly, period. This has been reported independantly by the IRC. Wether they be POWs or terrorists, they didn't do anything more than they did 6 months ago for the majority of them. Only 6months ago they didn't attack your country, so it was ok to let them do what they wanted, it was ok to let Massood get killed. It was even OK to fund them, up until a few years ago. You seem to deny this, but the group that flew planes on the WTC is the same that fought the USSR during the cold war, fully armed and trained by the CIA. I suggest you educate yourself about this, perhaps by reading the excellent "Massoud the Afghan" written by Christophe de Ponfilly. Now they're the worse kind of human scum ever. Wow... How convenient.
Your claims are ridiculous ScottH. I used to respect you a lot in the old AI days. However recently you've come out as being *very* emotional and having thoughts that didn't, well, have thoughts behind them. IIRC, that period where every single one of your posts was "Apple Apologist tm" is quite representative of yourself. I'm quite disappointed at you.
[quote] But why do that when you can allow your envy to cloud your thinking and allow yourself to bash the US at every turn?
If France has a problem then take it to Powell and don't use the French press to try to embarrass us. I thought the French were masters at diplomacy? So I can conclude that they intent was to embarrass the US. So...France...**** off. When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass<hr></blockquote>
Of course you would. Just like you did during WWII... Oh wait, you didn't. You stayed safely thousands of miles from a conflict that cost the lives of millions, until Japan actually attacked YOU. Wow.
Bush doesn't need Vedrine or any press criticism to ridicule his ownself pretty good. His trash talk has absolutely no credibility anywhere outside the US. Face it.
And France did support the US in its fight against the Taliban. France not supporting a speech by a moron is something else. France will not, and never has, blindly follow the steps of the US, for those have been wrong, countless times.
[quote]Then deal with the treatment of refugees, for example, in your own ****ing country and when you prefect it then you can turn your nose up and poo poo the US on that subject. Before that STFU. <hr></blockquote>
How incredibly mature of you. I don't seem to recall mexican refugees, or cuban refugees, being treated very correctly in the US either.
And the point is not what you seem to want to make it. You came out and said France was irrelevant. You said the US was the center of the world. I never claimed any such things regarding France.
As for you being conforted in your blind asumption that all Europeans don't like Americans, so be it. The fact is, indeed, most Europeans do not like Americans. This of couse only applies to American like you who are arrogant, severly uninformed, emotional, highly patritoic in the wrong way, and completely biased about their home country.
What is it I've said that's got you running around your room covering your ears and screaming "Proof PROOF ****ing PROOF!"?
Perhaps you believe a few hundred men with swords and horses could have handled the Red Army all by themselves? And even though, I've pointed you to reference regarding the US involvement in the Afghan war against the USSR.
What else do you want me to proove? Your incompetence as a human being?
I'm not exactly sure what he is supposed to be prooving.... although one thing is self evidently clear: Scotts arrogance and flippant dismissal of a whole country, as well as rounded discussion in favor of little viciouse snippet remarks that are supposed to be profound is very telling:
its very much like the Bush language and the rest of the world's reaction: "jeez that guy (that country) is really arrogant, thinks that his little mind (country) is the center of the world"
I'm an American and I have to say that this kind of consistent sniping is as uggly as everybody that rants against America claims it is. . . even if many of them are motivated out of 'envy' or whatever . . .it still looks bad and telling.
so, if the proof is about arrogance, just read all your own posts and then think about why some poeple make prejudices about Americans.
<strong>I'm not exactly sure what he is supposed to be prooving.... </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's because you don't bother to read what others have posted before you happily jump into the fray. This began with SYN asserting that bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA. He wasn't.
as for funding, what about the 45 million$ to fight opium production, given to the Taliban some months before the war? . . . I'm sure that, of course, the Taliban only used it for that purpose
But note, I am in no way placing blame or using this as some kind of 'its our fault' thing... . . but its generally acknowledge that this loan occured.
That's because you don't bother to read what others have posted before you happily jump into the fray. This began with SYN asserting that bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA. He wasn't.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Or that the Taliban got their arms from the US when they didn't. Or the other one that the US funded the Taliban which it didn't. Or that the Gitmo prisoners are/were mistreated. They weren't. Or the newest one about the 3000 civilian casualties that we all "know" happened but no one can prove.
These are many of the lies/facts that are repeated over and over and never go challenged. When they are challenged your told to STFU and play nice.
I recall reading an article a few days ago that said new civilian loss of life in Afghanistan to be around 600. That's a lot of people. It's sad. I know war is dirty and that this is one of the most precise wars ever fought. Still, it's depressing and I think we need to show more remorse than CIA money handouts to families. But, I guess that's war. Sucks.
[quote]Or that the Taliban got their arms from the US when they didn't. Or the other one that the US funded the Taliban which it didn't.
<hr></blockquote>
Yes they did. I even pointed you to a book written by an independant journalist who followed Massood over 20 years. You don't seem to acknowledge that. Perhaps they just made their own stinger missiles during the Cold War... lol.
[quote]
Or that the Gitmo prisoners are/were mistreated. They weren't.
<hr></blockquote>
You're switftly fighting on new ground. the Red Cross report is confidential, however independant journalists, and spokesman for Amnesty International, have clearly stated the conditions are not correct. But even if this is not true, it doesn't refute any single one of the facts I've listed going against your ridiculous assertions.
[quote]
These are many of the lies/facts that are repeated over and over and never go challenged. When they are challenged your told to STFU and play nice. <hr></blockquote>
I don't recall asking you to STFU. In fact, I don't remember using foul language *once* in this discussion. You however, just like a teenager discovering the "power" of the word fsck, have used it in just about every single post, and indeed kindly asking me to STFU
The analogy to your president is quite fitting, IMNSHO.
Comments
<strong>
Yea that's my point. When Europe is perfect then they can speak up. Considering they are the source of most of the fighting in the 20 century I'd say they have some work to do.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
If in order to speak you need to be perfect, then you won't need a tongue.
No European has made the statement that Europe is perfect in this forum. No one is fool enough to make such a statement even if he love his country.
I suppose that somebody has talked to powell first , but with no response, so they make publical explanations. That's what i suppose, i haven't got any clues on this : i a m not in the secret of french diplomatia.
Of course it did that on purpose , but for what goals , difficult to say, i may ask him the question but i doubt that i have the real explanation. However i don't know this guy , he won't reply to me anyway.
When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass.<hr></blockquote>
This is interesting to me...a very American statement. I say this because sentiments like it come straight out of the history book: when the United States joined World War I in 1917, General Pershing landed in France, and he announced, "Lafayette, we are here!"
Stirring words.
[For those who don't know, General Lafayette was instrumental in both arranging substantial French help against the British and fighting in the Revolutionary War]
<strong>
The only point of my post is that a crime is a crime, and it is stupid to blame US foreign policy for Osama's gang. There are plenty of other real things to blame US foreign policy for, but this isn't one of them.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right . A crime is a crime.
<strong>I suppose that somebody has talked to powell first , but with no response, so they make publical explanations. That's what i suppose, i haven't got any clues on this : i a m not in the secret of french diplomatia.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd bet you supposed wrong. Even the International Red Cross had to be reminded of its own ****ing policies when it came to the US and detainees from Afghanistan.
<strong>
I think that its really quite simple. THe soviet Union was collapsing for a very long time, due mostly to the intrinsic unworkability of its system, as well as a constant and concerted effort by the West to combat it and to stop the spread of its ideology. Its really pretty damn idiotic to put in the place of that understanding the notion that the second most powerful government in the world freaked out when Reagan called them 'evil' and then spontaneoulsy collapsed.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's really quite simple. That's not even near an accurate representation of what I've written here. You created a straw man and then knocked him over. Whatever pleases you I guess.
<strong>Scott, powerdoc is conducting himself in a reasonable and mature manner, there's not need to cuss at him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think I cussed at him.
Glad to see they've found something for their unemployed to do.* <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
*yes, i know that was low. but it was too good to pass up. sorry. <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
*yes, i know that was low. but it was too good to pass up. sorry. <hr></blockquote>
Who the hell is unemployed? The guy with the doctorate teaching me? Or myself, a 20 year old student? Maybe my parents? You do realize the best engineering schools in France are free? You do realize my point was criticizing the center of the world for not having proper free education? No, you probably don't, because according to you, this was too good to pass up. I hope you're sorry for being so foolish.
[quote] SYN, answer this. Remember Interpol and the Olympics?
French intelligence. <hr></blockquote>
And? Where have I said France was the center of the world? Where have I said some other country was irrelevant? Could you please enlighten me instead of posting smart-alec remarks that only amuse the 12 year old members here who have severe attention span disorder?
[quote]SYN, I am quite sympathetic to many of your arguments, but this piece is wrong. US arrogance did not kill 3000 innocent people, 15 or so hijackers (mostly Saudi nationals) killed 3000 people <hr></blockquote>
I agree with this. However, one has to realize that what happened perhaps wouldn't have if it wasn't for the US' interventionism. I'm not defending anything, just saying that just like pearl Harbor, if you see this as a blind act of barbary, then you're sadly mistaken. I do appreciate your level-headedness.
[quote]If Europe were a little more even handed that would be nice. Rather than fly off the handel ever time they see a brown skinned person bound and blindfolded while in transport from a war zone to a detention center. Also if they could apply the same rules to every aspect of this war that would be nice too. <hr></blockquote>
The prisoners are not treated correctly, period. This has been reported independantly by the IRC. Wether they be POWs or terrorists, they didn't do anything more than they did 6 months ago for the majority of them. Only 6months ago they didn't attack your country, so it was ok to let them do what they wanted, it was ok to let Massood get killed. It was even OK to fund them, up until a few years ago. You seem to deny this, but the group that flew planes on the WTC is the same that fought the USSR during the cold war, fully armed and trained by the CIA. I suggest you educate yourself about this, perhaps by reading the excellent "Massoud the Afghan" written by Christophe de Ponfilly. Now they're the worse kind of human scum ever. Wow... How convenient.
Your claims are ridiculous ScottH. I used to respect you a lot in the old AI days. However recently you've come out as being *very* emotional and having thoughts that didn't, well, have thoughts behind them. IIRC, that period where every single one of your posts was "Apple Apologist tm" is quite representative of yourself. I'm quite disappointed at you.
[quote] But why do that when you can allow your envy to cloud your thinking and allow yourself to bash the US at every turn?
If France has a problem then take it to Powell and don't use the French press to try to embarrass us. I thought the French were masters at diplomacy? So I can conclude that they intent was to embarrass the US. So...France...**** off. When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass<hr></blockquote>
Of course you would. Just like you did during WWII... Oh wait, you didn't. You stayed safely thousands of miles from a conflict that cost the lives of millions, until Japan actually attacked YOU. Wow.
Bush doesn't need Vedrine or any press criticism to ridicule his ownself pretty good. His trash talk has absolutely no credibility anywhere outside the US. Face it.
And France did support the US in its fight against the Taliban. France not supporting a speech by a moron is something else. France will not, and never has, blindly follow the steps of the US, for those have been wrong, countless times.
[quote]Then deal with the treatment of refugees, for example, in your own ****ing country and when you prefect it then you can turn your nose up and poo poo the US on that subject. Before that STFU. <hr></blockquote>
How incredibly mature of you. I don't seem to recall mexican refugees, or cuban refugees, being treated very correctly in the US either.
And the point is not what you seem to want to make it. You came out and said France was irrelevant. You said the US was the center of the world. I never claimed any such things regarding France.
As for you being conforted in your blind asumption that all Europeans don't like Americans, so be it. The fact is, indeed, most Europeans do not like Americans. This of couse only applies to American like you who are arrogant, severly uninformed, emotional, highly patritoic in the wrong way, and completely biased about their home country.
[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]
[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>
What is it I've said that's got you running around your room covering your ears and screaming "Proof PROOF ****ing PROOF!"?
Perhaps you believe a few hundred men with swords and horses could have handled the Red Army all by themselves? And even though, I've pointed you to reference regarding the US involvement in the Afghan war against the USSR.
What else do you want me to proove? Your incompetence as a human being?
its very much like the Bush language and the rest of the world's reaction: "jeez that guy (that country) is really arrogant, thinks that his little mind (country) is the center of the world"
I'm an American and I have to say that this kind of consistent sniping is as uggly as everybody that rants against America claims it is. . . even if many of them are motivated out of 'envy' or whatever . . .it still looks bad and telling.
so, if the proof is about arrogance, just read all your own posts and then think about why some poeple make prejudices about Americans.
<strong>I'm not exactly sure what he is supposed to be prooving.... </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's because you don't bother to read what others have posted before you happily jump into the fray. This began with SYN asserting that bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA. He wasn't.
<strong>what, you want proof regarding what?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That people were mistreated. Because what I read is that after the Red Cross got down there they had some suggestions and then that was the end of it.
as for funding, what about the 45 million$ to fight opium production, given to the Taliban some months before the war? . . . I'm sure that, of course, the Taliban only used it for that purpose
<strong>
That's because you don't bother to read what others have posted before you happily jump into the fray. This began with SYN asserting that bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA. He wasn't.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Or that the Taliban got their arms from the US when they didn't. Or the other one that the US funded the Taliban which it didn't. Or that the Gitmo prisoners are/were mistreated. They weren't. Or the newest one about the 3000 civilian casualties that we all "know" happened but no one can prove.
These are many of the lies/facts that are repeated over and over and never go challenged. When they are challenged your told to STFU and play nice.
<hr></blockquote>
Yes they did. I even pointed you to a book written by an independant journalist who followed Massood over 20 years. You don't seem to acknowledge that. Perhaps they just made their own stinger missiles during the Cold War... lol.
[quote]
Or that the Gitmo prisoners are/were mistreated. They weren't.
<hr></blockquote>
You're switftly fighting on new ground. the Red Cross report is confidential, however independant journalists, and spokesman for Amnesty International, have clearly stated the conditions are not correct. But even if this is not true, it doesn't refute any single one of the facts I've listed going against your ridiculous assertions.
[quote]
These are many of the lies/facts that are repeated over and over and never go challenged. When they are challenged your told to STFU and play nice. <hr></blockquote>
I don't recall asking you to STFU. In fact, I don't remember using foul language *once* in this discussion. You however, just like a teenager discovering the "power" of the word fsck, have used it in just about every single post, and indeed kindly asking me to STFU
The analogy to your president is quite fitting, IMNSHO.