[quote]It has happened. One case was a woman who claimed her baby was killed by the "Jews". Turns out she killed her own baby and blamed it on the "jews". I bet that didn't make it on the BBC site. ?<hr></blockquote>
One crazy bitch makes all palestinians that crazy?
So for me, there is two or three points who prevents the peace :
- terrorism : terrorism need nowhere and is not an excuse for any good goal. One of my favorite heroe is Gandhi , no violence but he obtain what he wanted to have, the indepandance of India.
- colonies : the politic of colonies was bad in my point of vue, you have to remove them in order to make a palestinian state, but it would betray the people who live there.
- Jerusalem : the holy city for the three majors religions of the world. Should stay to the jews ,but perhaps should have a special status for the mosque like the vatican has;
And to make peace you need two things :
- an israelian governements who want to make the peace
- and a palestinian who want to make the peace and have the power to do it (he must have the power to control his own state).
Powerdoc, I agree with you 100%. The settlements were a dumb idea, Arafat should have wiped out Hamas and Jihad, and Arafat should have taken Barak's offer a few years ago. They would have had their State............................................. .
You may think I'm nuts, but I think Israel is dealing with this thing very poorly.
Israel's solution is to offer reprisals on a one by one basis. Granted, Israel has a right to defend itself. But, it is now apparent that despite international pressure and statements to the contrary, Arafat is either unwilling or unable to reel in the terrorists in Palenstine.
I think Israel needs to help create a Palestinian state. But, should violence continue, I think there is but one option left for them. They must act for self preservation. They are surrounded by nations that hate them and would destroy them if possible (and one would argue they have already destroyed Israel's sense of security). Therefore, Israel should completely LEVEL Palestine. I know, I'm a hawk. But what other option is there if creating a state fails?
Israel's policy of pulling out, going back in, and then pulling out again is not working (with respect to Gaza). Neither is the intermittent eye for an eye approach. Invade or don't, but if if you do, then go to win.
<strong>I would really like to see that story. Do you have a link? I can´t imagine anyone killing their own child for the sole purpose of blaming Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
She didn't kill her own kid to blame it on Israel. She killed her own child and used Israel to hide it.
If you were sat at home minding your own business, and suddenly a bunch of heavily armed thugs trashed your home, beat up your family, then demolished your house with bulldozers, I think you would be more than pissed. Most people in their right mind would take up arms for the basic simple right to defend themselves in their own property.
The extremist crazies of Hamas and Hezbollah constitute a tiny minority of the overall Palestinian people. The Israeli bombing of the very facilities that could go after the terrorists is not exactly productive, or engenders good relations. Arafat now has as much control over these lunatics as we do over the weather.
When will people realize that Ariel Sharon is no better than a war criminal? It is, of course, taboo as well as politically incorrect to even bring up the subject of Sabra and Shatila, where in 1982 thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered in cold blood by Phalange militiamen, aided and abetted by the Israeli army and, according to an Israeli Court of Inquiry largely planned by Sharon.
(4) This whole crazy situation started because of Sharon's indiscretions, just as things were about to settle down and perhaps, peace would break out.
No side is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent. Of course there's always those who look blinkeredly at the world in black'n'white, but that is another reason as to why the conflict continues. business as usual.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Scott H,
If you were sat at home minding your own business, and suddenly a bunch of heavily armed thugs trashed your home, beat up your family, then demolished your house with bulldozers, I think you would be more than pissed. Most people in their right mind would take up arms for the basic simple right to defend themselves in their own property.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Has that same house been used to build bombs to blow up pizza joints and night clubs and busses full of people just trying to get home from work?
You all are right. Those ****ing jews asked for it. **** them!
Has that same house been used to build bombs to blow up pizza joints and night clubs and busses full of people just trying to get home from work?
You all are right. Those ****ing jews asked for it. **** them!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think she simply say that if you where a palestinian you should hate the israelians ,and if you where israelians you should hate palestinians. Both for goods reasons. That's why the conflict is not near from an ending.
Sharon promise security to his citizens , but israelians people does no see anything coming, Sharon his becoming more and more impopular for the two camps of israel :
- for the right of israel , Sharon is too weak : he should do a massive attack against Palestine,
and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(
You do realize that the French government did nothing about it right?
Yes. But my french isn't good enough to judge whether he really was antisemitic or not. But that was not my main point. I think the use of the word anti-semitism is often really a bad excuse for closing the mouth on people being critical towards the israleli government and the political actions of its leaders.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Scott H,
If you were sat at home minding your own business, and suddenly a bunch of heavily armed thugs trashed your home, beat up your family, then demolished your house with bulldozers, I think you would be more than pissed. Most people in their right mind would take up arms for the basic simple right to defend themselves in their own property.
The extremist crazies of Hamas and Hezbollah constitute a tiny minority of the overall Palestinian people. The Israeli bombing of the very facilities that could go after the terrorists is not exactly productive, or engenders good relations. Arafat now has as much control over these lunatics as we do over the weather.
When will people realize that Ariel Sharon is no better than a war criminal? It is, of course, taboo as well as politically incorrect to even bring up the subject of Sabra and Shatila, where in 1982 thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered in cold blood by Phalange militiamen, aided and abetted by the Israeli army and, according to an Israeli Court of Inquiry largely planned by Sharon.
(4) This whole crazy situation started because of Sharon's indiscretions, just as things were about to settle down and perhaps, peace would break out.
No side is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent. Of course there's always those who look blinkeredly at the world in black'n'white, but that is another reason as to why the conflict continues. business as usual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I also disagree with the eye for an eye approach Israel is taking. But, I think Israel is more in the right here. They aren't sending people over to blow up shopping areas and they are surrounded by people who hate them and always have (and always will).
I am really starting to become convinced that Israel needs to either help create a Palestinian state or simply obliterate Palestine (take it over). As I said though, the policy of them occupying land, then pulling out, then going back in again is stupid. Do something or don't. And get the **** out of Gaza already.
Israel tried to give the Palestinians a state and the Palestinians responded with terrorist bombings.
If these dirty Palestinians took on the army and left the civilians alone I'd have a different tune. But considering they by pass military targets in favor of pizza joints and night clubs then in my eyes they are terrorist and not to be negotiated with.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
When will people realize that Ariel Sharon is no better than a war criminal? It is, of course, taboo as well as politically incorrect to even bring up the subject of Sabra and Shatila, where in 1982 thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered in cold blood by Phalange militiamen, aided and abetted by the Israeli army and, according to an Israeli Court of Inquiry largely planned by Sharon.
No side is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent. Of course there's always those who look blinkeredly at the world in black'n'white, but that is another reason as to why the conflict continues. business as usual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree on that last point. yes, sadly it is bussiness as usual.
But one should not forget the terrorists (PLO I believe?) who stormed the Munich Summer Olypmics in 1972, killed and kidnapped innocent Israeli atheletes for the release of other terrorists held by the Israelis.
With this action alone I will forever detest the Palestinians who use terror and subversion to get to their goals. And so do many millions of people like myself who had to watch the whole thing pan out to it's pitiful end there and on TV.
All the terrorists there should be rounded up, tried or shot if they try to run away.
<strong>Israel tried to give the Palestinians a state and the Palestinians responded with terrorist bombings.
If these dirty Palestinians took on the army and left the civilians alone I'd have a different tune. But considering they by pass military targets in favor of pizza joints and night clubs then in my eyes they are terrorist and not to be negotiated with.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you are right if you consider that palestinians are a homogenous entity, but it's not the case, all palestinians are not terrorist, it's only a minority even if the number is important. You should not obliterate an entire population for that reason. Even, Sharon know that he cannot do this.
[quote]But one should not forget the terrorists (PLO I believe?) who stormed the Munich Summer Olypmics in 1972, killed and kidnapped innocent Israeli atheletes for the release of other terrorists held by the Israelis.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, going after the Munich terrorists is wholly justified; I never for a split secoind suggested otherwise.
ALL TERRORISTS must be brought to justice, including those those supported/financed/approved by Western industrial nations. What makes me shudder is the fact that the West continues to regard Sharon as a legitimate head-of-state, ignoring the fact that he has as much innocent blood on his hands than Idi Amin, bin Laden or or Milosevic. This thug should be tried (as the Belgians are suggesting) with war crimes relating back to 1982. In the same breath, so should Arafat and his henchmen. Sorry to offend, but scumbags like these don't cut it as bona-fide leaders, no matter how well connected they are.
you are right if you consider that palestinians are a homogenous entity, but it's not the case, all palestinians are not terrorist, it's only a minority even if the number is important. You should not obliterate an entire population for that reason. Even, Sharon know that he cannot do this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see the Palestinian people working very hard to rid their land of terrorist and build a democracy. I never suggested they should be "obliterate". Which isn't happening anyway.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
Yes, going after the Munich terrorists is wholly justified; I never for a split secoind suggested otherwise.
ALL TERRORISTS must be brought to justice, including those those supported/financed/approved by Western industrial nations. What makes me shudder is the fact that the West continues to regard Sharon as a legitimate head-of-state...</strong><hr></blockquote>
He's legitimate because he was elected by the people if Israel in a democratic process. Unlike Dictator Arafat (refuses to hold elections) whom Europe regards as legitimate
When Arafat is gone the peace process will start again.
If these dirty Palestinians took on the army and left the civilians alone I'd have a different tune. <hr></blockquote>
You are calling people with valid points anti-semites so what can I call you? Damning a whole people whom I bet you have never spoken to on the evil actions of a few.
Hating jews if just as bad as hating Muslims or hating period.
[quote]He's legitimate because he was elected by the people if Israel in a democratic process.{/quote]
Yes, at least the Israeli people voted for him, rather than being appointed by Israel's Supreme Court. (Thats about the only positive thing that could be said about Sharon the war criminal).
[quote] When Arafat is gone the peace process will start again. <hr></blockquote>
Not while Sharon's in charge... He might have been elected democratically, he's still not someone to trust. Jorg Haïder was elected democratically.
[quote]I don't see the Palestinian people working very hard to rid their land of terrorist<hr></blockquote>
Once again, like you so often do, you consider all palestinians as one. They've arrested three men in relation with the assassination of the Israeli Tourism Minister. I guess that doesn't count in their ongoing battle...
There are the extremists, and then there are the others. The extremists are unfortunately the vocal minority, but one shouldn't make hasty conclusions or gross generalizations, just because they commit acts of barbarism.
Obliterating the palestinians is akin to killing all Saudis because OBL is one. It will not help, and is most definitely the worse thing to do.
Most posts on these boards are so unilateral it's scary.
[quote]Yes this one example proves it for all. Can't you see?
Jessus ****ing Christ did I say that? No<hr></blockquote>
Well I pointed out an article stating over 70 dead palestinian children dating back to November, and all you had to answer was "Some crazy woman killed her child and blamed Israel". So either you're saying most of these 70 children were not killed by Israel, or you're dismissing the report because of one isolated incidents. Both show your bias.
And does using foul language in most of your posts make you feel more powerful?
Comments
One crazy bitch makes all palestinians that crazy?
I'm the one spending my time on <a href="http://www.completelycrazyconspiracies.com"; target="_blank">http://www.completelycrazyconspiracies.com</a>; ???
So for me, there is two or three points who prevents the peace :
- terrorism : terrorism need nowhere and is not an excuse for any good goal. One of my favorite heroe is Gandhi , no violence but he obtain what he wanted to have, the indepandance of India.
- colonies : the politic of colonies was bad in my point of vue, you have to remove them in order to make a palestinian state, but it would betray the people who live there.
- Jerusalem : the holy city for the three majors religions of the world. Should stay to the jews ,but perhaps should have a special status for the mosque like the vatican has;
And to make peace you need two things :
- an israelian governements who want to make the peace
- and a palestinian who want to make the peace and have the power to do it (he must have the power to control his own state).
Powerdoc, I agree with you 100%. The settlements were a dumb idea, Arafat should have wiped out Hamas and Jihad, and Arafat should have taken Barak's offer a few years ago. They would have had their State............................................. .
Israel's solution is to offer reprisals on a one by one basis. Granted, Israel has a right to defend itself. But, it is now apparent that despite international pressure and statements to the contrary, Arafat is either unwilling or unable to reel in the terrorists in Palenstine.
I think Israel needs to help create a Palestinian state. But, should violence continue, I think there is but one option left for them. They must act for self preservation. They are surrounded by nations that hate them and would destroy them if possible (and one would argue they have already destroyed Israel's sense of security). Therefore, Israel should completely LEVEL Palestine. I know, I'm a hawk. But what other option is there if creating a state fails?
Israel's policy of pulling out, going back in, and then pulling out again is not working (with respect to Gaza). Neither is the intermittent eye for an eye approach. Invade or don't, but if if you do, then go to win.
[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
<strong>I would really like to see that story. Do you have a link? I can´t imagine anyone killing their own child for the sole purpose of blaming Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
She didn't kill her own kid to blame it on Israel. She killed her own child and used Israel to hide it.
<strong>
One crazy bitch makes all palestinians that crazy?
I'm the one spending my time on <a href="http://www.completelycrazyconspiracies.com"; target="_blank">http://www.completelycrazyconspiracies.com</a>; ???</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes this one example proves it for all. Can't you see?
Jessus ****ing Christ did I say that? No.
If you were sat at home minding your own business, and suddenly a bunch of heavily armed thugs trashed your home, beat up your family, then demolished your house with bulldozers, I think you would be more than pissed. Most people in their right mind would take up arms for the basic simple right to defend themselves in their own property.
The extremist crazies of Hamas and Hezbollah constitute a tiny minority of the overall Palestinian people. The Israeli bombing of the very facilities that could go after the terrorists is not exactly productive, or engenders good relations. Arafat now has as much control over these lunatics as we do over the weather.
When will people realize that Ariel Sharon is no better than a war criminal? It is, of course, taboo as well as politically incorrect to even bring up the subject of Sabra and Shatila, where in 1982 thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered in cold blood by Phalange militiamen, aided and abetted by the Israeli army and, according to an Israeli Court of Inquiry largely planned by Sharon.
(4) This whole crazy situation started because of Sharon's indiscretions, just as things were about to settle down and perhaps, peace would break out.
No side is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent. Of course there's always those who look blinkeredly at the world in black'n'white, but that is another reason as to why the conflict continues. business as usual.
<strong>Scott H,
If you were sat at home minding your own business, and suddenly a bunch of heavily armed thugs trashed your home, beat up your family, then demolished your house with bulldozers, I think you would be more than pissed. Most people in their right mind would take up arms for the basic simple right to defend themselves in their own property.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Has that same house been used to build bombs to blow up pizza joints and night clubs and busses full of people just trying to get home from work?
You all are right. Those ****ing jews asked for it. **** them!
<strong>
Has that same house been used to build bombs to blow up pizza joints and night clubs and busses full of people just trying to get home from work?
You all are right. Those ****ing jews asked for it. **** them!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think she simply say that if you where a palestinian you should hate the israelians ,and if you where israelians you should hate palestinians. Both for goods reasons. That's why the conflict is not near from an ending.
Sharon promise security to his citizens , but israelians people does no see anything coming, Sharon his becoming more and more impopular for the two camps of israel :
- for the right of israel , Sharon is too weak : he should do a massive attack against Palestine,
- and for the left is politic is too hard.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Token:
and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-semitism should make us all sick.
You do realize that the French government did nothing about it right?
Yes. But my french isn't good enough to judge whether he really was antisemitic or not. But that was not my main point. I think the use of the word anti-semitism is often really a bad excuse for closing the mouth on people being critical towards the israleli government and the political actions of its leaders.
[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Token ]</p>
<strong>Scott H,
If you were sat at home minding your own business, and suddenly a bunch of heavily armed thugs trashed your home, beat up your family, then demolished your house with bulldozers, I think you would be more than pissed. Most people in their right mind would take up arms for the basic simple right to defend themselves in their own property.
The extremist crazies of Hamas and Hezbollah constitute a tiny minority of the overall Palestinian people. The Israeli bombing of the very facilities that could go after the terrorists is not exactly productive, or engenders good relations. Arafat now has as much control over these lunatics as we do over the weather.
When will people realize that Ariel Sharon is no better than a war criminal? It is, of course, taboo as well as politically incorrect to even bring up the subject of Sabra and Shatila, where in 1982 thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered in cold blood by Phalange militiamen, aided and abetted by the Israeli army and, according to an Israeli Court of Inquiry largely planned by Sharon.
(4) This whole crazy situation started because of Sharon's indiscretions, just as things were about to settle down and perhaps, peace would break out.
No side is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent. Of course there's always those who look blinkeredly at the world in black'n'white, but that is another reason as to why the conflict continues. business as usual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I also disagree with the eye for an eye approach Israel is taking. But, I think Israel is more in the right here. They aren't sending people over to blow up shopping areas and they are surrounded by people who hate them and always have (and always will).
I am really starting to become convinced that Israel needs to either help create a Palestinian state or simply obliterate Palestine (take it over). As I said though, the policy of them occupying land, then pulling out, then going back in again is stupid. Do something or don't. And get the **** out of Gaza already.
If these dirty Palestinians took on the army and left the civilians alone I'd have a different tune. But considering they by pass military targets in favor of pizza joints and night clubs then in my eyes they are terrorist and not to be negotiated with.
<strong>
When will people realize that Ariel Sharon is no better than a war criminal? It is, of course, taboo as well as politically incorrect to even bring up the subject of Sabra and Shatila, where in 1982 thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered in cold blood by Phalange militiamen, aided and abetted by the Israeli army and, according to an Israeli Court of Inquiry largely planned by Sharon.
No side is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent. Of course there's always those who look blinkeredly at the world in black'n'white, but that is another reason as to why the conflict continues. business as usual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree on that last point. yes, sadly it is bussiness as usual.
But one should not forget the terrorists (PLO I believe?) who stormed the Munich Summer Olypmics in 1972, killed and kidnapped innocent Israeli atheletes for the release of other terrorists held by the Israelis.
With this action alone I will forever detest the Palestinians who use terror and subversion to get to their goals. And so do many millions of people like myself who had to watch the whole thing pan out to it's pitiful end there and on TV.
All the terrorists there should be rounded up, tried or shot if they try to run away.
<strong>Israel tried to give the Palestinians a state and the Palestinians responded with terrorist bombings.
If these dirty Palestinians took on the army and left the civilians alone I'd have a different tune. But considering they by pass military targets in favor of pizza joints and night clubs then in my eyes they are terrorist and not to be negotiated with.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you are right if you consider that palestinians are a homogenous entity, but it's not the case, all palestinians are not terrorist, it's only a minority even if the number is important. You should not obliterate an entire population for that reason. Even, Sharon know that he cannot do this.
Yes, going after the Munich terrorists is wholly justified; I never for a split secoind suggested otherwise.
ALL TERRORISTS must be brought to justice, including those those supported/financed/approved by Western industrial nations. What makes me shudder is the fact that the West continues to regard Sharon as a legitimate head-of-state, ignoring the fact that he has as much innocent blood on his hands than Idi Amin, bin Laden or or Milosevic. This thug should be tried (as the Belgians are suggesting) with war crimes relating back to 1982. In the same breath, so should Arafat and his henchmen. Sorry to offend, but scumbags like these don't cut it as bona-fide leaders, no matter how well connected they are.
<strong>
you are right if you consider that palestinians are a homogenous entity, but it's not the case, all palestinians are not terrorist, it's only a minority even if the number is important. You should not obliterate an entire population for that reason. Even, Sharon know that he cannot do this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see the Palestinian people working very hard to rid their land of terrorist and build a democracy. I never suggested they should be "obliterate". Which isn't happening anyway.
<strong>
Yes, going after the Munich terrorists is wholly justified; I never for a split secoind suggested otherwise.
ALL TERRORISTS must be brought to justice, including those those supported/financed/approved by Western industrial nations. What makes me shudder is the fact that the West continues to regard Sharon as a legitimate head-of-state...</strong><hr></blockquote>
He's legitimate because he was elected by the people if Israel in a democratic process. Unlike Dictator Arafat (refuses to hold elections) whom Europe regards as legitimate
When Arafat is gone the peace process will start again.
If these dirty Palestinians took on the army and left the civilians alone I'd have a different tune. <hr></blockquote>
You are calling people with valid points anti-semites so what can I call you? Damning a whole people whom I bet you have never spoken to on the evil actions of a few.
Hating jews if just as bad as hating Muslims or hating period.
[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>
Yes, at least the Israeli people voted for him, rather than being appointed by Israel's Supreme Court. (Thats about the only positive thing that could be said about Sharon the war criminal).
Not while Sharon's in charge... He might have been elected democratically, he's still not someone to trust. Jorg Haïder was elected democratically.
[quote]I don't see the Palestinian people working very hard to rid their land of terrorist<hr></blockquote>
Once again, like you so often do, you consider all palestinians as one. They've arrested three men in relation with the assassination of the Israeli Tourism Minister. I guess that doesn't count in their ongoing battle...
There are the extremists, and then there are the others. The extremists are unfortunately the vocal minority, but one shouldn't make hasty conclusions or gross generalizations, just because they commit acts of barbarism.
Obliterating the palestinians is akin to killing all Saudis because OBL is one. It will not help, and is most definitely the worse thing to do.
Most posts on these boards are so unilateral it's scary.
[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>
Jessus ****ing Christ did I say that? No<hr></blockquote>
Well I pointed out an article stating over 70 dead palestinian children dating back to November, and all you had to answer was "Some crazy woman killed her child and blamed Israel". So either you're saying most of these 70 children were not killed by Israel, or you're dismissing the report because of one isolated incidents. Both show your bias.
And does using foul language in most of your posts make you feel more powerful?
[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>