Extent of Animal emotions
Well its an issue that came to a head today for me, and since weve had SOOOOO much fun with the abortion thread (im so sick of arguing at the moment that Im scared to look in there) I figgured that Id start another.
It recently came to my attention that there is a vast majority (at least in my scholastic life) of people who dont beleive that animals can feel the following emotions to a full extent:
embarasment
pride
Entity oriented anger (eg. the cat will be angry, but not at you specifically)
jealosy (sp?)
and many others (I may mention them later, Im having trouble thinking atthe moment)
I have always assumed from a kind of inductive reasoning (perhaps a flawed reasoning) that cats (and therefore I assume other animals as well) get embarassed when a jump goes "tits up" (do pardon the expressions and very bad pun) resluting in its gets up, and slouching away. Or years ago in my old home with my old cat who started sucking on the buttons of my fathers shirt (who was petting him atthe time) and then, on a confused glance from my father put on a very awkward look and ran away.
Are these proto-emotions (to quote one of my philosophy profs), responses that seem like our emotions, but stem from more basic fear/pleasure emotions, or are they full fledged self aware states?
It recently came to my attention that there is a vast majority (at least in my scholastic life) of people who dont beleive that animals can feel the following emotions to a full extent:
embarasment
pride
Entity oriented anger (eg. the cat will be angry, but not at you specifically)
jealosy (sp?)
and many others (I may mention them later, Im having trouble thinking atthe moment)
I have always assumed from a kind of inductive reasoning (perhaps a flawed reasoning) that cats (and therefore I assume other animals as well) get embarassed when a jump goes "tits up" (do pardon the expressions and very bad pun) resluting in its gets up, and slouching away. Or years ago in my old home with my old cat who started sucking on the buttons of my fathers shirt (who was petting him atthe time) and then, on a confused glance from my father put on a very awkward look and ran away.
Are these proto-emotions (to quote one of my philosophy profs), responses that seem like our emotions, but stem from more basic fear/pleasure emotions, or are they full fledged self aware states?
Comments
Yes, my dogs feel all of that. If anybody says otherwise, they're full of it. Anybody that owns a dog, cat, or even a hamster will be able to tell you that they've observed these kinds of emotional responses from their pets.
<strong>embarrassment, pride, jealousy, shame, anxiety...
Yes, my dogs feel all of that. If anybody says otherwise, they're full of it. Anybody that owns a dog, cat, or even a hamster will be able to tell you that they've observed these kinds of emotional responses from their pets.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I own three cats and i could not agree more. The funniest emotional response is jealousy which is evident. The only emotional response that i never see with animals is laugh.
Pride - I taught my dog how to "shake hands". I say "shake!" and he puts his paw out and doesn't put it down till I shake it. After he does it and I say "Good dog!" he gets all excited and wags like he's proud.
Anger - When my dog gets mad at us, he poops in front of our bedroom door. One time I took him with us for a weekend at my brothers and he pooped in front of his door because he ignored him all day and wouldn't pet him at all. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Jealousy - My sister brought her new dog over during the summer when we were having a BBQ. Everyone started paying attention to her dog, playing with it, petting it. My dog freaked out and started barking like crazy, even though he's met her dog before and played with her. He was just upset that no one was playing with him.
I think all animals experience these same types of emotions and thats why I won't eat them.
[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Willoughby ]</p>
<strong>Embarrassment - ...</strong><hr></blockquote>Emotions? I think these examples show that those dogs have personality disorders.
<strong>Emotions? I think these examples show that those dogs have personality disorders.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You think I should take him to see a shrink?
<strong>Maybe that's all it is in most humans as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>Bingo.
You hit the on the .
1) When he had an abscess on his back, he was really hurting and said "help me" in a distinguishable voice. When we tried to put him in the carrier he said "I won't go." Both my mother and I heard both of these.
2) I had a conversation with him once too. When I was sitting at our computer working on something in the back room, I heard from behind me, "Michael."
I turn around and there's my cat sitting there. I asked, "what?" "Out," he said. I said, "okay," and as I was standing up, he quickly stood up and bolted to the close back door.
Animals can talk too. It's funny to relate the vet story to people, though, because my mother and I both have to verify it to show we're not crazy and that BOTH of us heard it.
Personally, I think it's all instinct and we as humans are trying to put human characteristics on it.
If you look at Willoughby's examples, they can pretty much be explained by instinct or training.
1) Embarrassment. The dog kept hiding under the bed. Perhaps it was afraid because it knows that you will yell at it or get angry with it because it's pooping all over the house.
2) Pride. Well, it probably is waiting for the "Good dog", which may be followed by a treat.
3) Jealousy. If your dog considers itself the "alpha dog" then another dog encroching on it's territory is considered a threat.
4) Anger. Well, this is a tough one. It sure seems that animals get angry, though I think it's much more getting what they want or protecting what they have.
I do have a personal example of "jealousy" that I can't quite figure out. My wife and I were getting a little "kissy face" on the couch one night and the dog was looking at us with that cocked head-"what the hell is that?" look when she decided to hop up on the couch and get inbetween us. Now whenever we get kissy face, the dog runs to get between us and starts licking our faces. Sort of like "Hey, you two can't have any of that stuff without me!"
So there you have it. Emotions? Probably not. Instinct? Most likely. But that's just me.
He does the same thing when my fiancee comes home from work after I've fed him.
He's just as happy to see her. Keyword here is "happy".
Sure, dogs have instincts. Sure he does a lot of things because I've trained him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't express emotion.
Well, I haven't done an indepth study or anything but luckily someone has:
<a href="http://www.human-nature.com/darwin/emotion/contents.htm" target="_blank">Charles Darwin</a>
Thats a long read, but its a good one.
You should see how happy he gets when I get out his collar and leash.
He also shows embarassment, pride, fear and curiosity.
I've had other pets who were saddened at the loss of a loved one - another pet or a human.
Proto emotions or real emotions I don't really think it matters.
Hell, I'm sure humans have triggered responses due to training, learned responses and reward based actions. If I get a raise it means more money, and I'm happy.
What I wonder about is the future evolution of pets. I was actually thinking about starting a thread on this subject, as I'm curious what many of the intellectual/curiouser types on these boards would think about it.
My gal and I were on the couch watching TV the other night and my dog was watching it, as he often does. Whether he was just looking because of the noise or the picture I don't know. But it made me wonder about the stimuli effect.
Do you think that, say, 500 years from now, Dogs and Cats could learn to communicate/speak with humans from collectively watching TV and evolving over time?
Certainly TVs will become bigger and thereby more of a stimulus on the brains and nervous systems of pets. Right? I saw a study once where they blindfolded a kitten for 6 months and when they took the blindfold off the kitten was blind (yes, this was somewhat cruel, but I didn't do it). Would the stimulus of television/music over the course of several hundred, possibly a thousand, years have a reverse effect?
Just something this dog owner has pondered.
<strong>I
If you look at Willoughby's examples, they can pretty much be explained by instinct or training.
3) Jealousy. If your dog considers itself the "alpha dog" then another dog encroching on it's territory is considered a threat.
So there you have it. Emotions? Probably not. Instinct? Most likely. But that's just me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure but sit's the definition of jealousy, you consider your self as the Alpha man or woman, and thus you must be the first anyway, you want the best place , the best food ,the more love ...
I think that emotions are born in the deeper aeras of our brains, the aeras who have appear soon in the evolution of species. I don't think that emotions are born in the cortex aeras, but in our lymbic brain. So emotions are not the signature of humankind.
Humans are unique by the developpement or our frontal cortex,which give us the possibility of anticipate the future.
That' s why religion and mystic only belong to humankind, the fear of death, and furthemore the non-existence, the animal think only for the present he is not involved in the future.
Laugh is also a human signature, in order to laugh you have to make an abstract analysis of the facts, an analysis which can lead in a reflex of selfprotection against stress, to laugh.
so for me emotions are shared by many animals at the exception of laugh which is mure cortical, and your signature is the possiblitity to involved in the future and not to live only in the present .
But I agree - emotions don't need the cortex. Because people have a big cortex, we put on this extra layer of thought to our emotions that (most) other species don't.
Face it, if you love someone, it's just an erection with a little extra thought behind it.
Or if you fear someone, it's just your sympathetic nervous system with some extra cortical activity stuck on later.
nah. Humans have had pets for thousands of years and I don't recall them ever talking to their masters. Would be cool though. But then would we have to give them rights like people? Could they vote or work or have citizenship?
<strong>But then would we have to give them rights like people? Could they vote or work or have citizenship?</strong><hr></blockquote>Someone needs to watch the old series of Planet of the Apes movies.
I think that in the fourth one (Conquest of the Planet of the Apes) they dealt with exactly this issue.
[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
<strong>Do you think that, say, 500 years from now, Dogs and Cats could learn to communicate/speak with humans from collectively watching TV and evolving over time?
nah. Humans have had pets for thousands of years and I don't recall them ever talking to their masters. Would be cool though. But then would we have to give them rights like people? Could they vote or work or have citizenship?</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I can hear my cats in chorus saying " we want better food , we want the best places on the sofa, Miaow !!!
<strong>So what about chimps, powerdoc? They've got nice frontal lobes, appear to have self-awareness, and can use language up to the level of about a human 2 year old.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
you are true, but let's face it , whe share 99 % of our genetic code with chimps.
<strong>nah. Humans have had pets for thousands of years and I don't recall them ever talking to their masters.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please read CosmoNut's post.
His cat is apparently way more advanced than some humans I know.
When I was about twelve I came home wearing a red shirt(a color I never wear) and a new short haircut...
As I walked thru the "dogs area" I felt my as$ rise three feet in the air and realized my own dog was "ripping me a new one"... He didnt know it was me...
but after the first sound I made he stopped and crawled as low as he could back into his dog house and wouldnt come out for two hours...
I knew that day that dog "sure do" have feelings like regret and shame, etc... my dog made a major blunder and he knew it... he understood.. and he was obviously very ashamed/sorry/regretful, etc...
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© FERRO 2001-2002
[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>Embarrassment - when my dog was sick he couldn't stop pooping in the house. He kept hiding under his bed and wouldn't come out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Could it be that your dog knows what he did was "bad" and so was afraid (all animals know fear - really more of an instict than an emotion IMO) of being punished somehow?
[quote]<strong>Pride - I taught my dog how to "shake hands". I say "shake!" and he puts his paw out and doesn't put it down till I shake it. After he does it and I say "Good dog!" he gets all excited and wags like he's proud.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You say proud, I say just plain old excited. Example: you could probably say a hundred different things to your dog, but if you say it with enthusiasm in your voice and a smile on your face, he will likely wag his tail every time. OTOH, If you say "good dog" like you're pissed, he might actually be afraid afterwards. Try it. Dogs hone in on tone of voice and physical disposition as much as any words that come out of our mouths.
[quote]<strong>Anger - When my dog gets mad at us, he poops in front of our bedroom door. One time I took him with us for a weekend at my brothers and he pooped in front of his door because he ignored him all day and wouldn't pet him at all. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Could it be that his "anger" is really just a last resort behavior, because he has to go out but you don't take him. And thus, he finds his scent from the last time and dumps his load where all dogs most likely would?
[quote]<strong>Jealousy - My sister brought her new dog over during the summer when we were having a BBQ. Everyone started paying attention to her dog, playing with it, petting it. My dog freaked out and started barking like crazy, even though he's met her dog before and played with her. He was just upset that no one was playing with him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, you say jealous, I say excitable. A strange dog is around (dogs don't have long term memories such that they can say to themselves "oh yah, we met in Philly back in 93 - I remember you now by the smell of your arse!" And excited also because he was hearing and seeing human behaviors that would normally make him that way.
[quote]<strong>I think all animals experience these same types of emotions and thats why I won't eat them. </strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a nice thought, but extremely far fetched. The problem is people try to equate human emotions with animal behaviors, rather than looking on the possibility that animals have different range of emotions than we do. Why equate the range and complexity of human emotions, with what animals can feel - just because it makes animal lovers feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Why does our "happy" or "jealous" or "angry" have to be anything like theirs? Possibly they can feel some combination of feelings that we *can't* - see I'm not close-minded!
Anyway, too much projection and assumption goes into arguments about how pets can think and emote and all the rest. We ought to try and study their behavior for what it is, rather than what we'd like it to be.
By the way, if my woman saw this post, she would castrate me probably - she is the biggest dog lover I know...would agree that they have all the same emotions as humans, etc. Every once in a while I have to remind her what a tree-hugger she is to bring her back to planet earth....
[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>