Hey! Rank on the Mormons, that is more fun... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Just kidding. Being a Christian I would like to know what your definition of Christian is? After all, Mormons are "Christians", Good People consider themselves Christians. It is heavily over-used and is almost a meaningless term the way you are using it. It is like saying. People, don't like em.
not so much blind, but dense. yer the type who has to see something to believe it, no? and if something is a bit different than the norm, u throw a fit? cause its not "normal." open up yer eyes dude. try something different. try listening. why is a savior so hard to believe in???
<strong>And perhaps I should slightly narrow my view to:
Pushy Christians who must "save" you.
I just don't like 'em!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay, I lied in my earlier post. I don't like "pushy" Christians either. Remember, though, that the whole "Jesus Christ is your savior" thing is *kind of* a major part of Christianity.
Kind of like coffee to Starbucks. If you separate the two, well...
Okay, I lied in my earlier post. I don't like "pushy" Christians either. Remember, though, that the whole "Jesus Christ is your savior" thing is *kind of* a major part of Christianity.
Kind of like coffee to Starbucks. If you separate the two, well...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think i am going to begin a new thread : life : i don't like it. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Heh? Explain why only Christians can be the "Good People" here on Earth... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]After all, Mormons are "Christians", Good People consider themselves Christians. It is heavily over-used and is almost a meaningless term the way you are using it.<hr></blockquote>
My point was that just becasue you are a good person and such does NOT necesarily mean you are a Christian. Also on the flip side, I have met some people that seem to meet all the requirements to be a Christian and are the snobbiest (is that a word ) worst people who feel that they can act however they want because they are forgiven. It goes both ways and only God knows for sure.
And to more specifically answer your post, I know many really good people who are not Christians. God knows where they are and I can only tell them what I believe. They have to make their own choices.
Ah, the ever common "I'm open-minded because I'm non-religious." stance. If that's what this is all about, try harder.
I've seen too many people, namely intellectual-aristocrats, who think that being anti-religious means being open minded and trendy. That is why I make the hypothesis here.
I dislike Christianity (and all other religions with the possible exception of Zen Buddhism) because all of them, no matter how well intentioned allow people to shift blame off of themselves. As soon as you let someone tell you what is right and wrong instead of discovering it for yourself you have given up what is, perhaps, the most important freedom that any one can have, and I absolutely will not accept any organization that claims that power.
As far as Christians, I refuse to make any statements. I know plenty of Christians that I do like and plenty that I don't. The same goes for Jews, Buddhists, Muslem's, and even a few Hare Krishna.
<strong>Where are those mods? Isnt it their job to lock flame-bait threads like these?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've been watching the various threads on religion very closely, and for the most part they've contained reasoned discussion, albeit extremely opinionated.
I don't believe the content of this thread violates any part of the ToS, posts seem reasonable and contain no personal abuse. I haven't received any complaints.
I was raised Christian, but the more I found out about it's history, the less it appealed to me, considering the countless millions who have been killed in its name, the centuries-old practise of instilling fear, guilt, ignorance and self-loathing by default in the minds of people; the immense riches, self-importance and elitism of organizations that pretend to be the purveyors of the philosophy and teachings of one humble and wildly misunderstood man from the middle east.
I am not having a go at just Christians. All the big religions are complicit in similar folly, most especially the orthodox and fundamentalist versions which are the ones most heavily reliant on rigidity, superstition and ignorance, no matter which faith or denomination.
When these intensely personal matters are compromised to suit the masses, and big organizations take the helm, that is when the teachings become distorted, and the BS takes over.
If you believe in God, whatever that means, and want to communicate with said diety, then is not the best way to accomplish this in silence by oneself in solitary meditation, contemplation or prayer? This can be done by any human being, at any time; it is built in by default, and is his/her business and nobody else's. All the excess baggage (religious organizations) isn't going to get you any closer to God, or make you a better human being. If you feel the need to communicate with God, (whatever that may mean, I don't know) then cut out the middle man...he is after your money, allegiance and adherence first and foremost.
Perhaps the best thing that comes out of religion is the sense of community and social events that revolve around churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc. But regarding the connection/ correllation between religion and morality, I know many well-meaning people who are Christians and Jews. I know far fewer Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists (mainly because of where I live), but I can be sure that the proportions of well-meaning to malevolent people are constant no matter what stand they hang their spiritual hats on. And....some of the most moral and well intentioned and benevolent people I have ever met happen to be atheist or agnostic.
As a slightly side-topic addition, thank God (?????!!!! ouch) that America has (so far) managed to exist without an official government sanctioned faith, and public institutions remain secular. One can only guess, but I believe we have dodged the bullet of religious strife by maintaining the separation of "church and state".
Also, the "prayer in public schools" issue always irritates me. The Constitution guarantees "freedom of religious expression". This means, by default, freedom from religion; that is a no-brainer. Sadly, it is mostly people who "profess" to be Christian who are at the leading end of subverting this part of the Constitution, and in my view for the worse.
If any Christian wishes to pray in the method recommended/taught by Jesus, then they are free to do so without infringing on anyone else's religious/spiritual leanings, i.e. in silent prayer or meditation, in their *own* time. Jesus Christ himself severely chastises those who have to indulge in the public display of piousness (Matthew 6: 5-10, which is the opposite of the methods employed by much of standard American Christianity). Why go for compromise when the DIY method is so much more effective and natural?
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>As a slightly side-topic addition, thank God (?????!!!! ouch) that America has (so far) managed to exist without an official government sanctioned faith, and public institutions remain secular. One can only guess, but I believe we have dodged the bullet of religious strife by maintaining the separation of "church and state".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, other than perhaps the constant references to "God" by our president and numerous politicians. And swearing on a bible in court. Oh, and the Pledge of Allegiance.
Comments
Just kidding. Being a Christian I would like to know what your definition of Christian is? After all, Mormons are "Christians", Good People consider themselves Christians. It is heavily over-used and is almost a meaningless term the way you are using it. It is like saying. People, don't like em.
Lets specify:
I dont like the Catholic church.
::zips up fire-retardant trousers::
[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
Pushy Christians who must "save" you.
I just don't like 'em!
<strong>Call me blind, but I just can't picture some virgin giving birth to a guy who is supposed to somehow "save" us if we just believe in Him.
::zips up fire-retardant trousers::
[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
not so much blind, but dense. yer the type who has to see something to believe it, no? and if something is a bit different than the norm, u throw a fit? cause its not "normal." open up yer eyes dude. try something different. try listening. why is a savior so hard to believe in???
tell me oh intelligent one, what do u believe in?
<strong>And perhaps I should slightly narrow my view to:
Pushy Christians who must "save" you.
I just don't like 'em!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay, I lied in my earlier post. I don't like "pushy" Christians either. Remember, though, that the whole "Jesus Christ is your savior" thing is *kind of* a major part of Christianity.
Kind of like coffee to Starbucks. If you separate the two, well...
<strong>
Okay, I lied in my earlier post. I don't like "pushy" Christians either. Remember, though, that the whole "Jesus Christ is your savior" thing is *kind of* a major part of Christianity.
Kind of like coffee to Starbucks. If you separate the two, well...</strong><hr></blockquote>
i hear they serve smoothies there too.
<strong>Good People consider themselves Christians.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heh? Explain why only Christians can be the "Good People" here on Earth... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>
Heh? Explain why only Christians can be the "Good People" here on Earth... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Read the entire post Artman @_@.
[quote]After all, Mormons are "Christians", Good People consider themselves Christians. It is heavily over-used and is almost a meaningless term the way you are using it.<hr></blockquote>
My point was that just becasue you are a good person and such does NOT necesarily mean you are a Christian. Also on the flip side, I have met some people that seem to meet all the requirements to be a Christian and are the snobbiest (is that a word ) worst people who feel that they can act however they want because they are forgiven. It goes both ways and only God knows for sure.
And to more specifically answer your post, I know many really good people who are not Christians. God knows where they are and I can only tell them what I believe. They have to make their own choices.
I've seen too many people, namely intellectual-aristocrats, who think that being anti-religious means being open minded and trendy. That is why I make the hypothesis here.
As far as Christians, I refuse to make any statements. I know plenty of Christians that I do like and plenty that I don't. The same goes for Jews, Buddhists, Muslem's, and even a few Hare Krishna.
<strong>Where are those mods? Isnt it their job to lock flame-bait threads like these?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've been watching the various threads on religion very closely, and for the most part they've contained reasoned discussion, albeit extremely opinionated.
I don't believe the content of this thread violates any part of the ToS, posts seem reasonable and contain no personal abuse. I haven't received any complaints.
Perhaps the other mods will feel differently.
I am not having a go at just Christians. All the big religions are complicit in similar folly, most especially the orthodox and fundamentalist versions which are the ones most heavily reliant on rigidity, superstition and ignorance, no matter which faith or denomination.
When these intensely personal matters are compromised to suit the masses, and big organizations take the helm, that is when the teachings become distorted, and the BS takes over.
If you believe in God, whatever that means, and want to communicate with said diety, then is not the best way to accomplish this in silence by oneself in solitary meditation, contemplation or prayer? This can be done by any human being, at any time; it is built in by default, and is his/her business and nobody else's. All the excess baggage (religious organizations) isn't going to get you any closer to God, or make you a better human being. If you feel the need to communicate with God, (whatever that may mean, I don't know) then cut out the middle man...he is after your money, allegiance and adherence first and foremost.
Perhaps the best thing that comes out of religion is the sense of community and social events that revolve around churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc. But regarding the connection/ correllation between religion and morality, I know many well-meaning people who are Christians and Jews. I know far fewer Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists (mainly because of where I live), but I can be sure that the proportions of well-meaning to malevolent people are constant no matter what stand they hang their spiritual hats on. And....some of the most moral and well intentioned and benevolent people I have ever met happen to be atheist or agnostic.
As a slightly side-topic addition, thank God (?????!!!! ouch) that America has (so far) managed to exist without an official government sanctioned faith, and public institutions remain secular. One can only guess, but I believe we have dodged the bullet of religious strife by maintaining the separation of "church and state".
Also, the "prayer in public schools" issue always irritates me. The Constitution guarantees "freedom of religious expression". This means, by default, freedom from religion; that is a no-brainer. Sadly, it is mostly people who "profess" to be Christian who are at the leading end of subverting this part of the Constitution, and in my view for the worse.
If any Christian wishes to pray in the method recommended/taught by Jesus, then they are free to do so without infringing on anyone else's religious/spiritual leanings, i.e. in silent prayer or meditation, in their *own* time. Jesus Christ himself severely chastises those who have to indulge in the public display of piousness (Matthew 6: 5-10, which is the opposite of the methods employed by much of standard American Christianity). Why go for compromise when the DIY method is so much more effective and natural?
<strong>As a slightly side-topic addition, thank God (?????!!!! ouch) that America has (so far) managed to exist without an official government sanctioned faith, and public institutions remain secular. One can only guess, but I believe we have dodged the bullet of religious strife by maintaining the separation of "church and state".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, other than perhaps the constant references to "God" by our president and numerous politicians. And swearing on a bible in court. Oh, and the Pledge of Allegiance.