Feminism will exist until we achieve an era of post-feminism, when all women take for granted the things feminists have fought for (parity with men). I personally look forward to this day when feminism is a non-issue.
To me feminism can take several faces: Super girly stuff, which is all about reclaiming femininity (which I personally despise), then there's just a sense of independance IE working woman in a suit, earning the bucks (shallow, sorta, but has more respect with me), then there's the 'I'm a girl, get over it' type who don't want any favors or special treatment. These are the ones I respect most.They are examples of the post-feminist.
Then there's lots of lame feminist incarnations, ie militant dykes (rare), 'I deserve special treatment' types, women who jump down your throat and preach and condescend you, etc.
Keep in mind times have changed considerably since feminism began, so the militants and bitches and moaning, whining cunts* are getting rarer and rarer any day. I think the pendulum has swung in favour of equality a fair bit, so extremism is unneccessary, and even shocking/rude/overkill these days. As the pendulum swings, it requires less effort to push.
For the working class and conservative culture things are quite a bit slower to change, old values live on but a lot of progress has been made in the last 100 years or so.
Of course this is based on my own subjective observations.
<strong>Lemme tell you what. Portland is full of militant dykes. It is completely crazy. If you want to see some femminism come visit Portland.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You don't lie my friend. :eek: I live in Portland as well and some of these people are just <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> !
<strong>Lemme tell you what. Portland is full of militant dykes. It is completely crazy. If you want to see some femminism come visit Portland.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is feminism the fight for equality with men, or it is the fight for superiority over men? I would think 98% of true feminists fall into the former camp. But I've seen some, usually college students who basically are being very reactionary (to some extent justifiably) and finding a more, uh, opposing viewpoint.
I view Feminism as a necessary component to our Society. Women must fight to ensure that they are given equal rights and access just as any group should. However organizations like N.O.W(Nat Org for Women) IMO are for Business Women and have small agenda's for Women in general. Women have a power that many feel uncomfortable wielding and there are many issues beyond equal pay and opportunity that I would like to see Women grow in. We all have Mother's and Sisters and some have Wives. Most Men want to see the Women in their lives flourish.
ok, i'll take a bite out of this 'cause it's been pissing me off lately.
i have a close friend who's in college right now, and signed up for a feminisim class at the U of MN. she and i are really close, she's always been like a little sister to me, so we talk about stuff.
so she comes back from class and starts going over the drivel that they're trying to teach her about how men are opressing womyn, and it's all this big conspiricy to keep women down.
whatever.
for example though, she asks me "what's the difference between men and women"
i list off a handful of things and she doesn't get the answer she's looking for. so she tells me that i didn't do it, but most men answer the question by saying "men have a penis, women don't"
which somehow implies that women are inferior becuase they don't have something that men do have, and that men are doing this comparison on purpose to keep women down.
then she starts going off about why men don't say "women have vaginas, men don't" etc.
so this is the crap they're filling her head with.
i sat down and explained to her that it's probably not that complicated.
the fact is that the penis sticks out from your body. if a guy is naked and standing in front of you you see his penis. a girl stands naked in front of ou and you don't see much. why? 'cause it's all on the inside.
so it's natural to make the comparison that guys have this obvious thing that sticks out from their bodies that women don't.
in any case, her class is a bunch of crap, and i'm appalled that they teach this as a college level course. any first year debate student could go in there and rip the entire course material to little tiny pieces.
Wow what a waste of time! I have never opressed any woman. I have never made a person feel bad because of their weight or looks. Each individual person must decide what's important to them. I peer pressure comes under the guise of "helping" as well. Women as well as Men have to ask themselves the questions that arise from their problems. And find out if THEY themselves, are the oppressors.
1. The Spice Girls: This is the weakest level of feminism. The "were girls, we rock so lets go buy some brand name cloths to celebrate" image that exists exclusivley in the media and in dumb blone chicks.
2. The Millitants: A subset of the Berkinstock hippies. These are the people who state things like "The most important issue of a feminist city would be to stop violence towards women" (how about fixing the casues of violence in general?) or "Public transit is a feminist issue!". These are the classical feminists that every man hates (except the push over acedamia types who buy it ). You may recognize these peple as the ones that protest for affirmative action programs that hire underquallified women over qualified guys (not specifically a woman thing, I just feel that this extremist approach to affirmative action is out ot lunch). Common goals seem to be to put women over men.
3. The REAL feminists. The philosophers and moralists. The type of people who lead the equal rights movments in the 60s. The women who claim that they ARE equal, they dont have to be told so, and hold their own ground, using their own abillities to do good instead of complaining to others. These people often lead the feminist movments.
4. Every other woman, because, lets face it, every woman claims to be a feminist.
My problem with feminists is that the attitude of type 2, while thouroughlly (sp?) blasted by all feminists when you discuss the issue with them, is often promoted. I remember living with a LOT of people like this, who had GREAT values theoretically, but then tried to push the "we are the superior sex" to younger generations as a "to convince them that they are equal" approach.
Now dont get me wrong, I dont dislike feminists in general, I think that its a great casue and movment, I just hate type 2, but of course i hate all of the greater set (Berkinstock hippes*) just as much. I actually really like type 3 (and of course 4), my only problem is that they often promote type 2 behind closed doors (so to say).
*the "middle minded". The type of people who drive their SUVs and minivans to save the earth rallies. Again, a LOT of these types of people populated my old home.
Comments
To me feminism can take several faces: Super girly stuff, which is all about reclaiming femininity (which I personally despise), then there's just a sense of independance IE working woman in a suit, earning the bucks (shallow, sorta, but has more respect with me), then there's the 'I'm a girl, get over it' type who don't want any favors or special treatment. These are the ones I respect most.They are examples of the post-feminist.
Then there's lots of lame feminist incarnations, ie militant dykes (rare), 'I deserve special treatment' types, women who jump down your throat and preach and condescend you, etc.
Keep in mind times have changed considerably since feminism began, so the militants and bitches and moaning, whining cunts* are getting rarer and rarer any day. I think the pendulum has swung in favour of equality a fair bit, so extremism is unneccessary, and even shocking/rude/overkill these days. As the pendulum swings, it requires less effort to push.
For the working class and conservative culture things are quite a bit slower to change, old values live on but a lot of progress has been made in the last 100 years or so.
Of course this is based on my own subjective observations.
* I threw that one in there for the feminists
[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: stimuli ]</p>
<strong>Lemme tell you what. Portland is full of militant dykes. It is completely crazy. If you want to see some femminism come visit Portland.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You don't lie my friend. :eek: I live in Portland as well and some of these people are just <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> !
[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
<strong>Lemme tell you what. Portland is full of militant dykes. It is completely crazy. If you want to see some femminism come visit Portland.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You don't lie my friend. :eek:
i have a close friend who's in college right now, and signed up for a feminisim class at the U of MN. she and i are really close, she's always been like a little sister to me, so we talk about stuff.
so she comes back from class and starts going over the drivel that they're trying to teach her about how men are opressing womyn, and it's all this big conspiricy to keep women down.
whatever.
for example though, she asks me "what's the difference between men and women"
i list off a handful of things and she doesn't get the answer she's looking for. so she tells me that i didn't do it, but most men answer the question by saying "men have a penis, women don't"
which somehow implies that women are inferior becuase they don't have something that men do have, and that men are doing this comparison on purpose to keep women down.
then she starts going off about why men don't say "women have vaginas, men don't" etc.
so this is the crap they're filling her head with.
i sat down and explained to her that it's probably not that complicated.
the fact is that the penis sticks out from your body. if a guy is naked and standing in front of you you see his penis. a girl stands naked in front of ou and you don't see much. why? 'cause it's all on the inside.
so it's natural to make the comparison that guys have this obvious thing that sticks out from their bodies that women don't.
in any case, her class is a bunch of crap, and i'm appalled that they teach this as a college level course. any first year debate student could go in there and rip the entire course material to little tiny pieces.
Wow what a waste of time! I have never opressed any woman. I have never made a person feel bad because of their weight or looks. Each individual person must decide what's important to them. I peer pressure comes under the guise of "helping" as well. Women as well as Men have to ask themselves the questions that arise from their problems. And find out if THEY themselves, are the oppressors.
1. The Spice Girls: This is the weakest level of feminism. The "were girls, we rock so lets go buy some brand name cloths to celebrate" image that exists exclusivley in the media and in dumb blone chicks.
2. The Millitants: A subset of the Berkinstock hippies. These are the people who state things like "The most important issue of a feminist city would be to stop violence towards women" (how about fixing the casues of violence in general?) or "Public transit is a feminist issue!". These are the classical feminists that every man hates (except the push over acedamia types who buy it
3. The REAL feminists. The philosophers and moralists. The type of people who lead the equal rights movments in the 60s. The women who claim that they ARE equal, they dont have to be told so, and hold their own ground, using their own abillities to do good instead of complaining to others. These people often lead the feminist movments.
4. Every other woman, because, lets face it, every woman claims to be a feminist.
My problem with feminists is that the attitude of type 2, while thouroughlly (sp?) blasted by all feminists when you discuss the issue with them, is often promoted. I remember living with a LOT of people like this, who had GREAT values theoretically, but then tried to push the "we are the superior sex" to younger generations as a "to convince them that they are equal" approach.
Now dont get me wrong, I dont dislike feminists in general, I think that its a great casue and movment, I just hate type 2, but of course i hate all of the greater set (Berkinstock hippes*) just as much. I actually really like type 3 (and of course 4), my only problem is that they often promote type 2 behind closed doors (so to say).
*the "middle minded". The type of people who drive their SUVs and minivans to save the earth rallies. Again, a LOT of these types of people populated my old home.