There's an inherent faulty assumption in App Store deliver of operating systems and similar large files. Not everyone has access to high speed Internet. This is especially true in rural areas of the US where dial-up is the sole option. Apple may want to re-think App Store delivery as the sole/primary delivery mechanism or risk perpetuating the digital divide.
All of which is why a physical retail DVD is an option.
I think it is great they are making it available in the Mac App store, as long as there some sort of external media versions available. This will be absolutely necessary if I want to upgrade my hard drive at some point, or the one I have dies... Also, if someone has just 64 GB SSD, they're not going to want to use up precious drive space for a "just in case" restoration partition...
I think a DVD version might happen, but I wouldn?t expect it to be the same price as the MAS version. Besides the additional cost for manufacturing, packaging and shipping, I?d jack the price up enough to encourage the user of the MAS.
Also, part of the vamping of the stores added more personal setup areas. I don?t think it? out of the question to expect users to use these areas and fast internet to DL and install under the guiding hand of Apple Store employees. They might even do this as workshops.
Apple hasn't made any announcements on the matter. As such, it might mean you are making the faulty assumption that Apple isn't going to release it in a variety of ways. If so, there is no re-thinking necessary. Further, we have no idea how large the install will be.
The DL should be about 3-4GB.
As fror the arguments for rural, dial-up users they can hope Apple creates DVD version but don’t complain if it’s $20 more than the MAS version. But them the breaks. We can’t a company to service the smallest number of fringier users.
If they don’t offer a DVD option these rural, dial-up fringe users can swing by an Apple Store after the State Fair to get Lion installed. Seriously, how many rural, dial-up users are itching at getting the new version of Lion?
As fror the arguments for rural, dial-up users they can hope Apple creates DVD version but don?t complain if it?s $20 more than the MAS version. But them the breaks. We can?t a company to service the smallest number of fringier users.
If they don?t over a DVD option these rural, dial-up fringe users can swing by an Apple Store after the State Fair to get Lion installed. Seriously, how many rural, dial-up users are itching at getting the new version of Lion?
I do think our focus on DVD is wrong. We need to focus on how will Apple let us reinstall the OS as easily as before without having to download the entire version of the OS again.
That is the issue I?m been truing to find a resolution to since Preview 1. They have an internal setting in the Recovery HD that is created for reinstalling Lion, but it results in an error and I can?t see how I can tie my installer to it.
That is the issue I?m been truing to find a resolution to since Preview 1. They have an internal setting in the Recovery HD that is created for reinstalling Lion, but it results in an error and I can?t see how I can tie my installer to it.
I have a feeling that option will be for redownloading Lion only, and the servers for implementing that aren't live yet. Or maybe eventually it will be smart and be able to find your installer on an attached HD.
The installer desperately needs an option to restore it to a USB/DVD, but I have a suspicion the only way to do it will be to do "show package contents" on the installer, which is obviously far from ideal.
I'd prefer a flash drive myself. Takes forever to d/l the previews, since I'm way up in the hills and only have DSL.
MacDefender ShmacDefender. Great that Apple is responding relatively quickly to it. But no, it's not exploiting a fatal flaw in Mac OS X. You'd need to be extremely naive or stupid to give it your credit card info. Period.
The really interesting thing in 10.6.8, to me anyway, is improved support for iPv6 and VPN. iPv6 lets you securely "tunnel" from an iPv6-enabled device to any other iPv6-enabled device. Even if the device(s) are on LANs behind firewalls or NAT boxes. All your Macs and iDevices could have unique iPv6 addresses that wouldn't require NAT translations. Perfect for real iCloud syncing between all your devices.
And VPN would allow you to securely access your iCloud data on Apple's North Carolina data center LAN (or wherever else Apple sets up a server farm). Securely. Even from public WiFi access points with no password. This would be another key feature of iCloud, I'm guessing.
It really does sound like Apple is finishing up the infrastructure for iCloud...
I have a feeling that option will be for redownloading Lion only, and the servers for implementing that aren't live yet. Or maybe eventually it will be smart and be able to find your installer on an attached HD.
The installer desperately needs an option to restore it to a USB/DVD, but I have a suspicion the only way to do it will be to do "show package contents" on the installer, which is obviously far from ideal.
I can?t see the Recovery HD option having to re-download the OS again. At 3-4GB that will take a long time before the installer can even begin, even on a fast connection. Customers will get discouraged. At first I expected to see InstallESD.dmg placed inside the Recovery HD but taking up 4GB is excessive considering most will never use it again.
MBAs with 64GB storage aren?t really a big issue. Apple could do one or more of several things. All the new MBAs have 16GB USB flash drives. Apple could 1) make a special installer for them that rewrites SL to Lion, 2) replace/rewrite via phone/mail or Apple Store a new USB Flash Drive with Lion, 3) offer online instructions on how to access the InstallESD.dmg file, mount it in Disk Utility and burn to DL-DVD, and/or 4) offer a special app that automates this process of burning the installer to disc (or writing to flash drive), which really isn?t as fast fetched as one might thing as the other ?PC? vendors have been doing this for years with HDDs and saving with shipping DVDs.
The last two could be used for all Macs before Lion. After Lion I'd bet that future Macs will just come with those cheap flash drives like the MBA, and DVD sales of Lion (even if they do exist this time around) will not be around at all for Mac OS X 10.8.
PS: I just tried to access my Recovery HD and it does not exist for this machine. Perhaps because I have both Lion and SL on this SSD and the partitioner couldn?t made the needed changes to the disk. That?s a likelihood we haven?t discussed. What if it can?t make the Recovery HD partition, does to install as usual or should it stop the installation since that is step one.
IMHO, there is nothing you have stated that would negate my need for DVD media. Especially the comment about the 700Mb recovery partition.
In my experience, when a HDD dies, it gone forever. I don't frequently see just bits and pieces of a HDD die. And when that HDD dies, I am going to pull out the old/dead drive and replace it with a brand new bright shiny one. And here is the problem. I need OS media to lay down a file system then install the OS on.
Several post have commented that they would be happy with the media on a small USB thumb drive, or something similar. Granted, if the dead drive occurred a year or so out, the thumb drive would probably be fine.
But, what if your HDD dies 5 years out? What is the life cycle of a thumb drive? I don't know, but I would bet money that its life cycle is significantly shorter than Apple produced DVD media.
If you replace your computer every 12 to 18 months, you have probably stopped reading my post already. However, if you are a classic (no, not Mac OS) Apple end user, you not only want, but expect your Apple stuff to last for a long time, maybe forever. This includes OS media from Apple. At this point in time, I don't feel/trust that a USB stick can provide the quality and life cycle that a DVD can.
Bottom line - if you are able to upgrade to Lion over the App Store, and you are happy with this, more power to you. OTOH, I want the full DVD experience, and I will vote with my wallet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
What the OS installer first does is resize your partition to add ≈700MB hundred Recovery HD partition for troubleshooting your Mac outside the OS. Within that partition there is an option to install Mac OS X Lion, however, this feature isn?t? able to locate the Install files nor gives any hint as to link the install files to it from within Mac OS X Lion.
Hopefully that gets resolved because it would then negate most people?s fears about needing to burn it to a DVD for backup when having the .DMG file should suffice.
IMHO, there is nothing you have stated that would negate my need for DVD media. Especially the comment about the 700Mb recovery partition.
In my experience, when a HDD dies, it gone forever. I don't frequently see just bits and pieces of a HDD die. And when that HDD dies, I am going to pull out the old/dead drive and replace it with a brand new bright shiny one. And here is the problem. I need OS media to lay down a file system then install the OS on.
Several post have commented that they would be happy with the media on a small USB thumb drive, or something similar. Granted, if the dead drive occurred a year or so out, the thumb drive would probably be fine.
But, what if your HDD dies 5 years out? What is the life cycle of a thumb drive? I don't know, but I would bet money that its life cycle is significantly shorter than Apple produced DVD media.
If you replace your computer every 12 to 18 months, you have probably stopped reading my post already. However, if you are a classic (no, not Mac OS) Apple end user, you not only want, but expect your Apple stuff to last for a long time, maybe forever. This includes OS media from Apple. At this point in time, I don't feel/trust that a USB stick can provide the quality and life cycle that a DVD can.
Bottom line - if you are able to upgrade to Lion over the App Store, and you are happy with this, more power to you. OTOH, I want the full DVD experience, and I will vote with my wallet.
1) The Recovery HD has nothing to do with the physical storage, but with the OS. Instead of users having to pull out an external ODD or using a Remote Disc to load Mac OS X just to access Disk Utility to fix the OS, you have it built in as a small, hidden partition. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Do you really want to use a DVD just to Repair Disk on your boot volume?
2) I don't know of any reliable source that says that USB thumb drives can't be read from due to bit rot after 5 years. The last thing I read gave it at least a decade. Cn you imagine the average user wanting to install Snow Leopard via the USB drive on today's MBA in the year 2021? I can't. I believe DVDs can start to degrade after 20s, which small capacity media being significantly higher. Either way, it's all a moot point.
3) You're being overly paranoid about this inevitable trend. You've also failed to acknowledge that thou can copy it to DVD, or back up to multiple HDDs and SSDs as you see fit.
4) Finally, if you're worried about a USB flash drive not lasting the duration of your computer then logically speaking you have to be afraid of an SSDs, Hybrid HDDs, and every iDevice Apple sells, save for the iPod Classic. All of these use NAND! At least with an OS it's updated in cycles that typically are less than the timeframe in which most people own their machines.
I disagree with the "Bootdisk is a must" comments.
The chances of corrupt downloads are there but I would hazard a guess are low. Apple pushes ludicrous amounts of data daily and it doesn't take that long to download a 2GB movie so a 4GB file shouldn't be that long and I'm talking about New Zealand download speeds which are crap.
The beauty of the download method is you only get the download for your machine. In fact it seems reasonable (and it's the way I would do it) that you download a small OS version to start with which then during the installation process downloads the drivers needed for your hardware. This reduces the size of the download and also streamlines the OS even more as there won't be the stuff needed for other machines like there can be for disc versions.
This is going to be interesting to see how it pans out and I think it is going to be pushing more and more to DVD-less machines.
Rebuilding could easily be resolved by the installer creating a separate partition to install Lion files to which then means you could boot from that partition to rebuild the machine. This of course doesn't factor in HDD crash which requires a total rebuild anyway.
There are pros and cons for all of this but I see there being more pros than cons.
There's an inherent faulty assumption in App Store deliver of operating systems and similar large files. Not everyone has access to high speed Internet. This is especially true in rural areas of the US where dial-up is the sole option. Apple may want to re-think App Store delivery as the sole/primary delivery mechanism or risk perpetuating the digital divide.
Perhaps the faulty assumption is that the App Store will be the sole means to update. As long as you can mail order physical media rural folks are fine.
Yep. I think an OS is really one of the only pieces of software where a physical copy is important. So hopefully it has some kind of install option to put it on a bootable USB stick...
I agree i want a bootable alternative to my primary boot device. But i have to admit that, in practice, i haven't needed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas
If it is going to allow making of bootable DVD/USB Flash/HDD Partition why do you care? It will be cheaper and for many people faster, because not everyone lives in US and not everyone has Apple Store 2 blocks away.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80025
There's an inherent faulty assumption in App Store deliver of operating systems and similar large files. Not everyone has access to high speed Internet. This is especially true in rural areas of the US where dial-up is the sole option. Apple may want to re-think App Store delivery as the sole/primary delivery mechanism or risk perpetuating the digital divide.
The digital divide argument is usually spurious. While a digital divide does indeed exist, it's generally much smaller that its advocates suggest.
In this case, high speed InterNet is becoming ubiquitous, so it's a good delivery mechanism for a large percentage of Mac users. But obviously not all. No doubt Apple will make available some kind of physical, shippable solution (e.g. DVD). And very likely, that option will cost more than an InterNet delivery, as it should (to cover the additional costs associated with manufacture and delivery of physical objects).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
…MacDefender ShmacDefender. …You'd need to be extremely naive or stupid to give it your credit card info. Period.
I could see many people falling for it. Particularly older people, and those coming over from the dark side of computing (i.e. Windoze).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratsg
…In my experience, when a HDD dies, it gone forever.
In my experience, when a hard disk drive “dies,” it’s because a few bits in the volume table of contents became corrupted. This can cause a drive not to mount. But with the proper disk editing software, and a knowledge of the volume table of contents, one can repair those bits, and bring the drive back to life. I think i've only encountered one drive with a true hardware failure: bearings went bad. The drive was replaced because it was getting so noisy; didn't lose any data.
I eschew drive manufacturers with poor reputations for reliability. With the exception of the one case of bad bearings, i've only ever had to retire drives because they became obsolete, not because they failed. And i generally try to squeak five or six years out of my hardware purchases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratsg
OTOH, I want the full DVD experience, and I will vote with my wallet.
I do think there is a chance they won't offer it as a DVD, though I'd heavily leaning toward a DVD option at an increased price point. I don't Mac OS X 10.8 will have a DVD option as in 4 years optical drives and DVD media probably won't even be sold Apple Stores.
Assuming there is a DVD option, I wonder if they will release it the same day as Lion or put those discs introduction for sale shortly afterwards to help push people toward the Mac App Store.
I disagree with the "Bootdisk is a must" comments.
Ditto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie
The chances of corrupt downloads are there but I would hazard a guess are low.
Actually, zero, so long as checksums are used to verify the data. DMG images all have checksums to verify the integrity of the package. And there are checksums on each packet of data transmitted over the InterNet. If a package gets corrupted in transit, the receiver knows about it and can request it be resent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie
The beauty of the download method is you only get the download for your machine. In fact it seems reasonable (and it's the way I would do it) that you download a small OS version to start with which then during the installation process downloads the drivers needed for your hardware. This reduces the size of the download and also streamlines the OS even more as there won't be the stuff needed for other machines like there can be for disc versions.
Good points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie
This is going to be interesting to see how it pans out and I think it is going to be pushing more and more to DVD-less machines.
Clearly the handwriting in on the wall. The days of the DVD are numbered. They're probably shorter than i'd care for, as a matter of fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkie
Perhaps the faulty assumption is that the App Store will be the sole means to update. As long as you can mail order physical media rural folks are fine.
You're absolutely correct: That is a faulty assumption. There's no way Apple is going to go to download only. They're going to make physical media available (probably DVD).
I remember when they transitioned CD media for Mac OS 8 (or thereabouts): The release was available primarily on CD, but a floppy based version was available too. I'll even bet that when 10.8 ships, a physical delivery option will be available for it too, albeit probably something other than DVD by then (maybe a Thunderbolt drive, SDXC card, or whatever). Not everyone will have high speed InterNet by then, but DVD drives will probably have disappeared as standard equipment.
Actually, zero, so long as checksums are used to verify the data. DMG images all have checksums to verify the integrity of the package. And there are checksums on each packet of data transmitted over the InterNet. If a package gets corrupted in transit, the receiver knows about it and can request it be resent.
Checksums can only do so much. Without saying too much about it I've had multiple issues with the Mac App Store downloads -AND- Lion installations both thinking they are complete and whole when in fact they were corrupted. For instance, the "Install Mac OS X Lion Preview 2.app" verified fine but after it restarting and getting about 80% through the installation it would fail. Only after diving into app using Show Package Contents and working my way through DMGs I found the disk image that would fail to verify. Now, this is something they can and likely have fixed but there is always a chance for something to be overlooked.
They also have had a problem with the way the Mac App Store downloads files. I wish they would adopt a better method for starting and stopping downloads the way Dropbox and torrents have mastered. Hopefull 10.6.8 update takes care of those issues.
I do think there is a chance they won't offer it as a DVD, though I'd heavily leaning toward a DVD option at an increased price point.
I'm sure they'll offer shippable, physical media. Probably DVD. I'd expect it to be priced higher too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
I don't Mac OS X 10.8 will have a DVD option as in 4 years optical drives and DVD media probably won't even be sold Apple Stores.
By then, DVD's will no longer be standard equipment. But high speed InterNet still won't be ubiquitous, so 10.8 will be available on some other kind of physical media. Probably an SDXC card, or a Thunderbolt ROM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Assuming there is a DVD option, I wonder if they will release it the same day as Lion or put those discs introduction for sale shortly afterwards to help push people toward the Mac App Store.
I expect the App store price to be less than the DVD, and that'll be incentive enough for most folks. Plus no waiting on delivery/standing in line.
I'm real curious to see how Apple prices this. Although i'm not going so far as to predict they'll do this, it wouldn't surprise me if the App store price is really low, like $5, to encourage adoption (with a $29 DVD price). Apple stands to make more money indirectly from people adopting Lion, than directly through sales of Lion. Lion will be a catalyst for sales of App store titles, and iOS devices. Furthermore, Mac sales volume has risen substantially since 10.5 shipped, so Apple can recoup Mac OS R&D costs from volume sales at a lower price point (if that's even a factor anymore in their OS pricing strategy, which i tend to doubt).
My assumption is that they're using checksums correctly. The examples you cite make me believe they aren't. No excuse for that, really, and their QA should have discovered that. That QA missed it speaks poorly of the department. Maybe Apple's QA department needs a shakeup?
I'm real curious to see how Apple prices this. Although i'm not going so far as to predict they'll do this, it wouldn't surprise me if the App store price is really low, like $5, to encourage adoption (with a $29 DVD price). Apple stands to make more money indirectly from people adopting Lion, than directly through sales of Lion. Lion will be a catalyst for sales of App store titles, and iOS devices. Furthermore, Mac sales volume has risen substantially since 10.5 shipped, so Apple can recoup Mac OS R&D costs from volume sales at a lower price point (if that's even a factor anymore in their OS pricing strategy, which i tend to doubt).
Selling at $29, like SL, would likely yield a lot more profit over any previous OS when you consider how fast Macs have grown and how much cross-over R&D is using between Mac OS and iOS. I don't think they'd charge less than a single iWork app which is $20, but I suppose it's possible. There is an argument to be made that the great adoption of Lion the better support for the ecosystem you can harness for even greater profit.
1) The Recovery HD has nothing to do with the physical storage, but with the OS. Instead of users having to pull out an external ODD or using a Remote Disc to load Mac OS X just to access Disk Utility to fix the OS, you have it built in as a small, hidden partition. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Do you really want to use a DVD just to Repair Disk on your boot volume?
but it has everything to do with physical media. If you have physically lost your sole HDD due to damage, having a Lion.dmg file, or a 700 Mb recovery partition on that dead HDD will have absolutely no value. Those items are gone when you lost your HDD. It has nothing to do with being easy or you squeezing your lemon. Once that drive is gone and you replace it with a new drive, the average Apple end user need OS media. Maybe you can borrow a Lion DVD from your Apple using neighbor down the street. Or if you live in a city it means a trip to the Apple store. The point you are missing from your last sentence (above), is that there is no boot volume to repair.
Have you ever actually just lost part of a HDD? Really? And if you did, how far would you trust it with your data? Whether a drive dies quickly or slowly, ultimately you are going to replace it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
2) I don't know of any reliable source that says that USB thumb drives can't be read from due to bit rot after 5 years. The last thing I read gave it at least a decade. Cn you imagine the average user wanting to install Snow Leopard via the USB drive on today's MBA in the year 2021? I can't. I believe DVDs can start to degrade after 20s, which small capacity media being significantly higher. Either way, it's all a moot point.
According to wikipedia, references state that USB flash drives have a life time similar to SSD drives.
I have no plans to trust a USB flash drive for long term data archival purposes. I don't think that will change anytime in the near future. For me, those type of devices are for sneakernet type purposes. At this point in time, I suspect that most people use USB flash drives in a similar fashion. Either way, I have seen nothing so far in this thread that would convince me to trust this type of a device long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
3) You're being overly paranoid about this inevitable trend. You've also failed to acknowledge that thou can copy it to DVD, or back up to multiple HDDs and SSDs as you see fit.
On the contrary, you seem to be overly eager to jump on new media distribution technology and dispose of the existing technology that not only works well, but is a necessity for many. If you are replacing your system every 12 to 18 months, or if you are surrounded by other Apple systems, where fresh DVD media could be burned, you can pull the OS over the network, or some other option is available, I would guess that none of my discussion points make any sense to you. And I would speculate that this is your situation.
To try to understand the point(s) I am attempting to make, I would ask you to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has just one Mac with a dead hard drive, or in the shoes of an Apple user who will still be using his or her system 10 plus years down the road. This isn't everyone, and it sound like it definately isn't you. But it is a significant percentage of Apple end users. And don't just consider older people with limited technical skills here. Consider all the recent converts from ms windows who are using their first/one/only Mac here.
From your posts, you are obviously skilled in OS X, and between your knowledge and the (physical) resources you have at hand it appears that you would suffer very little from the types of problems that I am describing. Many Apple end users don't have the knowledge to do so, nor do they have you living next door so that you can save them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
4) Finally, if you're worried about a USB flash drive not lasting the duration of your computer then logically speaking you have to be afraid of an SSDs, Hybrid HDDs, and every iDevice Apple sells, save for the iPod Classic. All of these use NAND! At least with an OS it's updated in cycles that typically are less than the timeframe in which most people own their machines.
I think that you are generalizing here. I think that these devices are great, expecially SSD's. And I have an iPhone and a couple of other i-devices. They all do a wonderful job of performing their intended purpose. Unfortunately, none of these do the job of being install media as well as a DVD from Apple.
Comments
There's an inherent faulty assumption in App Store deliver of operating systems and similar large files. Not everyone has access to high speed Internet. This is especially true in rural areas of the US where dial-up is the sole option. Apple may want to re-think App Store delivery as the sole/primary delivery mechanism or risk perpetuating the digital divide.
All of which is why a physical retail DVD is an option.
Apple isn't actually staffed and run by idiots.
I think it is great they are making it available in the Mac App store, as long as there some sort of external media versions available. This will be absolutely necessary if I want to upgrade my hard drive at some point, or the one I have dies... Also, if someone has just 64 GB SSD, they're not going to want to use up precious drive space for a "just in case" restoration partition...
I think a DVD version might happen, but I wouldn?t expect it to be the same price as the MAS version. Besides the additional cost for manufacturing, packaging and shipping, I?d jack the price up enough to encourage the user of the MAS.
Also, part of the vamping of the stores added more personal setup areas. I don?t think it? out of the question to expect users to use these areas and fast internet to DL and install under the guiding hand of Apple Store employees. They might even do this as workshops.
Apple hasn't made any announcements on the matter. As such, it might mean you are making the faulty assumption that Apple isn't going to release it in a variety of ways. If so, there is no re-thinking necessary. Further, we have no idea how large the install will be.
The DL should be about 3-4GB.
As fror the arguments for rural, dial-up users they can hope Apple creates DVD version but don’t complain if it’s $20 more than the MAS version. But them the breaks. We can’t a company to service the smallest number of fringier users.
If they don’t offer a DVD option these rural, dial-up fringe users can swing by an Apple Store after the State Fair to get Lion installed. Seriously, how many rural, dial-up users are itching at getting the new version of Lion?
The DL should be about 3-4GB.
As fror the arguments for rural, dial-up users they can hope Apple creates DVD version but don?t complain if it?s $20 more than the MAS version. But them the breaks. We can?t a company to service the smallest number of fringier users.
If they don?t over a DVD option these rural, dial-up fringe users can swing by an Apple Store after the State Fair to get Lion installed. Seriously, how many rural, dial-up users are itching at getting the new version of Lion?
not a bad point that last one.
not a bad point that last one.
I do think our focus on DVD is wrong. We need to focus on how will Apple let us reinstall the OS as easily as before without having to download the entire version of the OS again.
That is the issue I?m been truing to find a resolution to since Preview 1. They have an internal setting in the Recovery HD that is created for reinstalling Lion, but it results in an error and I can?t see how I can tie my installer to it.
That is the issue I?m been truing to find a resolution to since Preview 1. They have an internal setting in the Recovery HD that is created for reinstalling Lion, but it results in an error and I can?t see how I can tie my installer to it.
I have a feeling that option will be for redownloading Lion only, and the servers for implementing that aren't live yet. Or maybe eventually it will be smart and be able to find your installer on an attached HD.
The installer desperately needs an option to restore it to a USB/DVD, but I have a suspicion the only way to do it will be to do "show package contents" on the installer, which is obviously far from ideal.
MacDefender ShmacDefender. Great that Apple is responding relatively quickly to it. But no, it's not exploiting a fatal flaw in Mac OS X. You'd need to be extremely naive or stupid to give it your credit card info. Period.
The really interesting thing in 10.6.8, to me anyway, is improved support for iPv6 and VPN. iPv6 lets you securely "tunnel" from an iPv6-enabled device to any other iPv6-enabled device. Even if the device(s) are on LANs behind firewalls or NAT boxes. All your Macs and iDevices could have unique iPv6 addresses that wouldn't require NAT translations. Perfect for real iCloud syncing between all your devices.
And VPN would allow you to securely access your iCloud data on Apple's North Carolina data center LAN (or wherever else Apple sets up a server farm). Securely. Even from public WiFi access points with no password. This would be another key feature of iCloud, I'm guessing.
It really does sound like Apple is finishing up the infrastructure for iCloud...
I have a feeling that option will be for redownloading Lion only, and the servers for implementing that aren't live yet. Or maybe eventually it will be smart and be able to find your installer on an attached HD.
The installer desperately needs an option to restore it to a USB/DVD, but I have a suspicion the only way to do it will be to do "show package contents" on the installer, which is obviously far from ideal.
I can?t see the Recovery HD option having to re-download the OS again. At 3-4GB that will take a long time before the installer can even begin, even on a fast connection. Customers will get discouraged. At first I expected to see InstallESD.dmg placed inside the Recovery HD but taking up 4GB is excessive considering most will never use it again.
MBAs with 64GB storage aren?t really a big issue. Apple could do one or more of several things. All the new MBAs have 16GB USB flash drives. Apple could 1) make a special installer for them that rewrites SL to Lion, 2) replace/rewrite via phone/mail or Apple Store a new USB Flash Drive with Lion, 3) offer online instructions on how to access the InstallESD.dmg file, mount it in Disk Utility and burn to DL-DVD, and/or 4) offer a special app that automates this process of burning the installer to disc (or writing to flash drive), which really isn?t as fast fetched as one might thing as the other ?PC? vendors have been doing this for years with HDDs and saving with shipping DVDs.
The last two could be used for all Macs before Lion. After Lion I'd bet that future Macs will just come with those cheap flash drives like the MBA, and DVD sales of Lion (even if they do exist this time around) will not be around at all for Mac OS X 10.8.
PS: I just tried to access my Recovery HD and it does not exist for this machine. Perhaps because I have both Lion and SL on this SSD and the partitioner couldn?t made the needed changes to the disk. That?s a likelihood we haven?t discussed. What if it can?t make the Recovery HD partition, does to install as usual or should it stop the installation since that is step one.
In my experience, when a HDD dies, it gone forever. I don't frequently see just bits and pieces of a HDD die. And when that HDD dies, I am going to pull out the old/dead drive and replace it with a brand new bright shiny one. And here is the problem. I need OS media to lay down a file system then install the OS on.
Several post have commented that they would be happy with the media on a small USB thumb drive, or something similar. Granted, if the dead drive occurred a year or so out, the thumb drive would probably be fine.
But, what if your HDD dies 5 years out? What is the life cycle of a thumb drive? I don't know, but I would bet money that its life cycle is significantly shorter than Apple produced DVD media.
If you replace your computer every 12 to 18 months, you have probably stopped reading my post already. However, if you are a classic (no, not Mac OS) Apple end user, you not only want, but expect your Apple stuff to last for a long time, maybe forever. This includes OS media from Apple. At this point in time, I don't feel/trust that a USB stick can provide the quality and life cycle that a DVD can.
Bottom line - if you are able to upgrade to Lion over the App Store, and you are happy with this, more power to you. OTOH, I want the full DVD experience, and I will vote with my wallet.
What the OS installer first does is resize your partition to add ≈700MB hundred Recovery HD partition for troubleshooting your Mac outside the OS. Within that partition there is an option to install Mac OS X Lion, however, this feature isn?t? able to locate the Install files nor gives any hint as to link the install files to it from within Mac OS X Lion.
Hopefully that gets resolved because it would then negate most people?s fears about needing to burn it to a DVD for backup when having the .DMG file should suffice.
PS: Th
IMHO, there is nothing you have stated that would negate my need for DVD media. Especially the comment about the 700Mb recovery partition.
In my experience, when a HDD dies, it gone forever. I don't frequently see just bits and pieces of a HDD die. And when that HDD dies, I am going to pull out the old/dead drive and replace it with a brand new bright shiny one. And here is the problem. I need OS media to lay down a file system then install the OS on.
Several post have commented that they would be happy with the media on a small USB thumb drive, or something similar. Granted, if the dead drive occurred a year or so out, the thumb drive would probably be fine.
But, what if your HDD dies 5 years out? What is the life cycle of a thumb drive? I don't know, but I would bet money that its life cycle is significantly shorter than Apple produced DVD media.
If you replace your computer every 12 to 18 months, you have probably stopped reading my post already. However, if you are a classic (no, not Mac OS) Apple end user, you not only want, but expect your Apple stuff to last for a long time, maybe forever. This includes OS media from Apple. At this point in time, I don't feel/trust that a USB stick can provide the quality and life cycle that a DVD can.
Bottom line - if you are able to upgrade to Lion over the App Store, and you are happy with this, more power to you. OTOH, I want the full DVD experience, and I will vote with my wallet.
1) The Recovery HD has nothing to do with the physical storage, but with the OS. Instead of users having to pull out an external ODD or using a Remote Disc to load Mac OS X just to access Disk Utility to fix the OS, you have it built in as a small, hidden partition. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Do you really want to use a DVD just to Repair Disk on your boot volume?
2) I don't know of any reliable source that says that USB thumb drives can't be read from due to bit rot after 5 years. The last thing I read gave it at least a decade. Cn you imagine the average user wanting to install Snow Leopard via the USB drive on today's MBA in the year 2021? I can't. I believe DVDs can start to degrade after 20s, which small capacity media being significantly higher. Either way, it's all a moot point.
3) You're being overly paranoid about this inevitable trend. You've also failed to acknowledge that thou can copy it to DVD, or back up to multiple HDDs and SSDs as you see fit.
4) Finally, if you're worried about a USB flash drive not lasting the duration of your computer then logically speaking you have to be afraid of an SSDs, Hybrid HDDs, and every iDevice Apple sells, save for the iPod Classic. All of these use NAND! At least with an OS it's updated in cycles that typically are less than the timeframe in which most people own their machines.
The chances of corrupt downloads are there but I would hazard a guess are low. Apple pushes ludicrous amounts of data daily and it doesn't take that long to download a 2GB movie so a 4GB file shouldn't be that long and I'm talking about New Zealand download speeds which are crap.
The beauty of the download method is you only get the download for your machine. In fact it seems reasonable (and it's the way I would do it) that you download a small OS version to start with which then during the installation process downloads the drivers needed for your hardware. This reduces the size of the download and also streamlines the OS even more as there won't be the stuff needed for other machines like there can be for disc versions.
This is going to be interesting to see how it pans out and I think it is going to be pushing more and more to DVD-less machines.
Rebuilding could easily be resolved by the installer creating a separate partition to install Lion files to which then means you could boot from that partition to rebuild the machine. This of course doesn't factor in HDD crash which requires a total rebuild anyway.
There are pros and cons for all of this but I see there being more pros than cons.
There's an inherent faulty assumption in App Store deliver of operating systems and similar large files. Not everyone has access to high speed Internet. This is especially true in rural areas of the US where dial-up is the sole option. Apple may want to re-think App Store delivery as the sole/primary delivery mechanism or risk perpetuating the digital divide.
Perhaps the faulty assumption is that the App Store will be the sole means to update. As long as you can mail order physical media rural folks are fine.
Yep. I think an OS is really one of the only pieces of software where a physical copy is important. So hopefully it has some kind of install option to put it on a bootable USB stick...
I agree i want a bootable alternative to my primary boot device. But i have to admit that, in practice, i haven't needed it.
If it is going to allow making of bootable DVD/USB Flash/HDD Partition why do you care? It will be cheaper and for many people faster, because not everyone lives in US and not everyone has Apple Store 2 blocks away.
Exactly.
There's an inherent faulty assumption in App Store deliver of operating systems and similar large files. Not everyone has access to high speed Internet. This is especially true in rural areas of the US where dial-up is the sole option. Apple may want to re-think App Store delivery as the sole/primary delivery mechanism or risk perpetuating the digital divide.
The digital divide argument is usually spurious. While a digital divide does indeed exist, it's generally much smaller that its advocates suggest.
In this case, high speed InterNet is becoming ubiquitous, so it's a good delivery mechanism for a large percentage of Mac users. But obviously not all. No doubt Apple will make available some kind of physical, shippable solution (e.g. DVD). And very likely, that option will cost more than an InterNet delivery, as it should (to cover the additional costs associated with manufacture and delivery of physical objects).
…MacDefender ShmacDefender. …You'd need to be extremely naive or stupid to give it your credit card info. Period.
I could see many people falling for it. Particularly older people, and those coming over from the dark side of computing (i.e. Windoze).
…In my experience, when a HDD dies, it gone forever.
In my experience, when a hard disk drive “dies,” it’s because a few bits in the volume table of contents became corrupted. This can cause a drive not to mount. But with the proper disk editing software, and a knowledge of the volume table of contents, one can repair those bits, and bring the drive back to life. I think i've only encountered one drive with a true hardware failure: bearings went bad. The drive was replaced because it was getting so noisy; didn't lose any data.
I eschew drive manufacturers with poor reputations for reliability. With the exception of the one case of bad bearings, i've only ever had to retire drives because they became obsolete, not because they failed. And i generally try to squeak five or six years out of my hardware purchases.
OTOH, I want the full DVD experience, and I will vote with my wallet.
I'm sure you'll have that option.
I'm sure you'll have that option.
I do think there is a chance they won't offer it as a DVD, though I'd heavily leaning toward a DVD option at an increased price point. I don't Mac OS X 10.8 will have a DVD option as in 4 years optical drives and DVD media probably won't even be sold Apple Stores.
Assuming there is a DVD option, I wonder if they will release it the same day as Lion or put those discs introduction for sale shortly afterwards to help push people toward the Mac App Store.
I disagree with the "Bootdisk is a must" comments.
Ditto.
The chances of corrupt downloads are there but I would hazard a guess are low.
Actually, zero, so long as checksums are used to verify the data. DMG images all have checksums to verify the integrity of the package. And there are checksums on each packet of data transmitted over the InterNet. If a package gets corrupted in transit, the receiver knows about it and can request it be resent.
The beauty of the download method is you only get the download for your machine. In fact it seems reasonable (and it's the way I would do it) that you download a small OS version to start with which then during the installation process downloads the drivers needed for your hardware. This reduces the size of the download and also streamlines the OS even more as there won't be the stuff needed for other machines like there can be for disc versions.
Good points.
This is going to be interesting to see how it pans out and I think it is going to be pushing more and more to DVD-less machines.
Clearly the handwriting in on the wall. The days of the DVD are numbered. They're probably shorter than i'd care for, as a matter of fact.
Perhaps the faulty assumption is that the App Store will be the sole means to update. As long as you can mail order physical media rural folks are fine.
You're absolutely correct: That is a faulty assumption. There's no way Apple is going to go to download only. They're going to make physical media available (probably DVD).
I remember when they transitioned CD media for Mac OS 8 (or thereabouts): The release was available primarily on CD, but a floppy based version was available too. I'll even bet that when 10.8 ships, a physical delivery option will be available for it too, albeit probably something other than DVD by then (maybe a Thunderbolt drive, SDXC card, or whatever). Not everyone will have high speed InterNet by then, but DVD drives will probably have disappeared as standard equipment.
Actually, zero, so long as checksums are used to verify the data. DMG images all have checksums to verify the integrity of the package. And there are checksums on each packet of data transmitted over the InterNet. If a package gets corrupted in transit, the receiver knows about it and can request it be resent.
Checksums can only do so much. Without saying too much about it I've had multiple issues with the Mac App Store downloads -AND- Lion installations both thinking they are complete and whole when in fact they were corrupted. For instance, the "Install Mac OS X Lion Preview 2.app" verified fine but after it restarting and getting about 80% through the installation it would fail. Only after diving into app using Show Package Contents and working my way through DMGs I found the disk image that would fail to verify. Now, this is something they can and likely have fixed but there is always a chance for something to be overlooked.
They also have had a problem with the way the Mac App Store downloads files. I wish they would adopt a better method for starting and stopping downloads the way Dropbox and torrents have mastered. Hopefull 10.6.8 update takes care of those issues.
I do think there is a chance they won't offer it as a DVD, though I'd heavily leaning toward a DVD option at an increased price point.
I'm sure they'll offer shippable, physical media. Probably DVD. I'd expect it to be priced higher too.
I don't Mac OS X 10.8 will have a DVD option as in 4 years optical drives and DVD media probably won't even be sold Apple Stores.
By then, DVD's will no longer be standard equipment. But high speed InterNet still won't be ubiquitous, so 10.8 will be available on some other kind of physical media. Probably an SDXC card, or a Thunderbolt ROM.
Assuming there is a DVD option, I wonder if they will release it the same day as Lion or put those discs introduction for sale shortly afterwards to help push people toward the Mac App Store.
I expect the App store price to be less than the DVD, and that'll be incentive enough for most folks. Plus no waiting on delivery/standing in line.
I'm real curious to see how Apple prices this. Although i'm not going so far as to predict they'll do this, it wouldn't surprise me if the App store price is really low, like $5, to encourage adoption (with a $29 DVD price). Apple stands to make more money indirectly from people adopting Lion, than directly through sales of Lion. Lion will be a catalyst for sales of App store titles, and iOS devices. Furthermore, Mac sales volume has risen substantially since 10.5 shipped, so Apple can recoup Mac OS R&D costs from volume sales at a lower price point (if that's even a factor anymore in their OS pricing strategy, which i tend to doubt).
Checksums can only do so much?
My assumption is that they're using checksums correctly. The examples you cite make me believe they aren't. No excuse for that, really, and their QA should have discovered that. That QA missed it speaks poorly of the department. Maybe Apple's QA department needs a shakeup?
I'm real curious to see how Apple prices this. Although i'm not going so far as to predict they'll do this, it wouldn't surprise me if the App store price is really low, like $5, to encourage adoption (with a $29 DVD price). Apple stands to make more money indirectly from people adopting Lion, than directly through sales of Lion. Lion will be a catalyst for sales of App store titles, and iOS devices. Furthermore, Mac sales volume has risen substantially since 10.5 shipped, so Apple can recoup Mac OS R&D costs from volume sales at a lower price point (if that's even a factor anymore in their OS pricing strategy, which i tend to doubt).
Selling at $29, like SL, would likely yield a lot more profit over any previous OS when you consider how fast Macs have grown and how much cross-over R&D is using between Mac OS and iOS. I don't think they'd charge less than a single iWork app which is $20, but I suppose it's possible. There is an argument to be made that the great adoption of Lion the better support for the ecosystem you can harness for even greater profit.
1) The Recovery HD has nothing to do with the physical storage, but with the OS. Instead of users having to pull out an external ODD or using a Remote Disc to load Mac OS X just to access Disk Utility to fix the OS, you have it built in as a small, hidden partition. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Do you really want to use a DVD just to Repair Disk on your boot volume?
but it has everything to do with physical media. If you have physically lost your sole HDD due to damage, having a Lion.dmg file, or a 700 Mb recovery partition on that dead HDD will have absolutely no value. Those items are gone when you lost your HDD. It has nothing to do with being easy or you squeezing your lemon. Once that drive is gone and you replace it with a new drive, the average Apple end user need OS media. Maybe you can borrow a Lion DVD from your Apple using neighbor down the street. Or if you live in a city it means a trip to the Apple store. The point you are missing from your last sentence (above), is that there is no boot volume to repair.
Have you ever actually just lost part of a HDD? Really? And if you did, how far would you trust it with your data? Whether a drive dies quickly or slowly, ultimately you are going to replace it.
2) I don't know of any reliable source that says that USB thumb drives can't be read from due to bit rot after 5 years. The last thing I read gave it at least a decade. Cn you imagine the average user wanting to install Snow Leopard via the USB drive on today's MBA in the year 2021? I can't. I believe DVDs can start to degrade after 20s, which small capacity media being significantly higher. Either way, it's all a moot point.
According to wikipedia, references state that USB flash drives have a life time similar to SSD drives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_flash_drive#Longevity
I have no plans to trust a USB flash drive for long term data archival purposes. I don't think that will change anytime in the near future. For me, those type of devices are for sneakernet type purposes. At this point in time, I suspect that most people use USB flash drives in a similar fashion. Either way, I have seen nothing so far in this thread that would convince me to trust this type of a device long term.
3) You're being overly paranoid about this inevitable trend. You've also failed to acknowledge that thou can copy it to DVD, or back up to multiple HDDs and SSDs as you see fit.
On the contrary, you seem to be overly eager to jump on new media distribution technology and dispose of the existing technology that not only works well, but is a necessity for many. If you are replacing your system every 12 to 18 months, or if you are surrounded by other Apple systems, where fresh DVD media could be burned, you can pull the OS over the network, or some other option is available, I would guess that none of my discussion points make any sense to you. And I would speculate that this is your situation.
To try to understand the point(s) I am attempting to make, I would ask you to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has just one Mac with a dead hard drive, or in the shoes of an Apple user who will still be using his or her system 10 plus years down the road. This isn't everyone, and it sound like it definately isn't you. But it is a significant percentage of Apple end users. And don't just consider older people with limited technical skills here. Consider all the recent converts from ms windows who are using their first/one/only Mac here.
From your posts, you are obviously skilled in OS X, and between your knowledge and the (physical) resources you have at hand it appears that you would suffer very little from the types of problems that I am describing. Many Apple end users don't have the knowledge to do so, nor do they have you living next door so that you can save them.
4) Finally, if you're worried about a USB flash drive not lasting the duration of your computer then logically speaking you have to be afraid of an SSDs, Hybrid HDDs, and every iDevice Apple sells, save for the iPod Classic. All of these use NAND! At least with an OS it's updated in cycles that typically are less than the timeframe in which most people own their machines.
I think that you are generalizing here. I think that these devices are great, expecially SSD's. And I have an iPhone and a couple of other i-devices. They all do a wonderful job of performing their intended purpose. Unfortunately, none of these do the job of being install media as well as a DVD from Apple.