Except in financial conference calls they never mention profit marketshare ( in fact even there they dont, analysts work it out).
Indeed - this is because 'profit marketshare' is extremely hard to measure accurately. Unlike marketshare itself which is available from market reserach surveys and from shipment figures, profit share has to be estimated from the various OEMs accounts. The accounts aren't even all published in the same regions under the same rules. Also there can be considerable motivation for a firm like Samsung to move profits from one division to another for tax purposes.
Revenue-share is somewhat more reliable because everybody at least agrees on what revenue is.
There is no doubt that Apple dominates the most profitable segments of the market, but it's unclear by exactly how much. There's also little doubt that Motorola and Sony Ericsson have had problems with profits, and that Nokia is seeing substantial profit erosion.
The situation for Nokia and MS is getting grimmer by the day. Nokia would have needed all the help from the sales channel they can get (in most countries that means: the carriers) to keep up Symbian smartphone sales until something else is ready.
Elop (and MS) have done everything possible to destroy that support:
- Carriers do not want to hear about your great ecosystem (the want to sell value added services themselves)
- Do not blast about the coming "dual-SIM phones" if carriers are your main distributor. They hate dual SIM phones, because it makes it easier for the customer to take them to the cleaners.
- Do not buy Skype and announce to bring it to WP7. There is nothing on earth the carriers despise more.
As a result there are more and more sales points that downright refuse to sell Nokia smartphones, all while Nokia's dumbphones are under extreme pricing pressure from Asian phone makers, and there are no signs that Symbian/Qt developers are moving to WP7/Silverlight in droves... To make it even better, HTC is sending clear signals that it will concentrate more on Android.
This whole Nokia/MS deal will end as one of the biggest management mistakes in history. And Elop will be kicked out before the year is over.
By the way, Samsung is very flexible in a sense that they develop smartphones in multiple platforms: Android, its own Bada, and WP7. They could even make iOS phones if that can be licensed, lol. Wait a second, that could turn out to be a good strategy for Apple, lol.
While it would never happen, a licenced iOS to Samsung in it's home Market of Korea would work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64
This is what most people fail to understand and the wall street idiot do not realize that think only selling more unit than anyone else is all that matters.
Actually, wall street is obsessed with gross margin. In any conference call if Apple guide lower on margin they get a lot of questions. As far as wall street is concerned lower margins may not lead to over all market share increases, at least - prior to the fact - they cant be certain it will.
In any case Jobs is almost never at conference calls - when he gets on stage to talk about share, it is market share. Clearly this makes sense. No point getting on the WWDC and saying market share is static, but profits are up. Devs dont care.
By the way, Samsung is very flexible in a sense that they develop smartphones in multiple platforms: Android, its own Bada, and WP7. They could even make iOS phones if that can be licensed, lol. Wait a second, that could turn out to be a good strategy for Apple, lol.
All that flexibility and they still lost marketshare in the US last quarter, in terms of total handsets. Samsung's problem is that Bada only plays in developing markets like South America, so their flexibility amounts to a choice between being a box-shifter for Android/WP7 or selling a budget system to developing nations. Now if Bada was a high value system like RIM or iOS then they'd be in a genuinely good place.
Nokia's spectacular fall from grace may buy Samsung some time, but the only Android/WP7 maker that really seems genuinely strong right now is HTC.
IMO Nokia will continue to fall. Those still buying Nokia today are largely symbian fans - lets see how quickly they jump ship when Nokia produces mainly Win7 high end phones.
Big wins coming up for android and apple.
Nokia's CEO compared the company to a "burning oil platform." He told employees that. No wonder they are all jumping furiously into the sea, an analogy that Elop equated to dumping Nokia's Symbian for WP7. They simply have no choice.
Oh, and one other thing: Elop revealed that Nokia first approached Google, but Google wouldn't let them customize Android for Nokia's needs, so they went to Microsoft and worked out a deal where Microsoft would let Nokia do whatever they wanted with WP7 in exchange for using WP7. Ironic that Google would not let them do that with their so-called "open" platform.
Ironic that Google would not let them do that with their so-called "open" platform.
Google is backtracking on that big-time in the face of system fragmentation. They're also not keen on OEMs and carriers making Bing versions of Android - for obvious reasons.
Nokia could have customized an older Open Sourced version, but they couldn't have used the Android brand if they'd done that.
Huh, from the way the media is playing all of this one would think Apple and iOS is doomed because of Android.
The difference, as many people have stated before, between android and ios in the market is that Android has many manufacturers and companies putting the software on their phones while Apple both makes their phones and the operating system for those phones. I think that if we were to take a look at the market share of android split up between each company you would see how much more market share Apple has then any single company running the android os.
I think that apple is doing quite well for themselves.
Who cares if Sammy sells more phones. They simply pump out every design that comes to mind, flood the market and repeat that crap all over again. In the end they will be in debt. Watch.
Oh, and one other thing: Elop revealed that Nokia first approached Google, but Google wouldn't let them customize Android for Nokia's needs, so they went to Microsoft and worked out a deal where Microsoft would let Nokia do whatever they wanted with WP7 in exchange for using WP7. Ironic that Google would not let them do that with their so-called "open" platform.
I call BS. I think Elop wanted transition money and Google wasn't willing to pay up. Android is open. They can install whatever apps they want on there. I don't know how much more customizable it could get. Heck, the didn't have to really ask Google's permission if they didn't want to (though they wouldn't get Google's apps then).
Moreover, it smacks of hypocrisy when they cry that Android wasn't customizable enough and then adopt WP7 which is even less flexible (in spite of their special deal with MS). They might have some flexibility but no way they have as much as they would have gotten with Android. And ultimately they can't deviate from the tiled look of WP7's Metro UI.
I think Elop is just making excuses to cover up his money grab. And now that he's hitched Nokia's future to WP7, he has to trash talk Android as much as he can.
Who says more marketshare demands a more "diverse" offering of products? That's crazy.
It is not a rule, it is also not crazy. It is reality for their competitors. Samsungs market share advantage does not translate to more leverage from suppliers because they make 10x the number of different smart phones than Apple does. They have a wide variety of configurations and I doubt there is any particular part they buy more of then Apple.
I call BS. I think Elop wanted transition money and Google wasn't willing to pay up. Android is open. They can install whatever apps they want on there. I don't know how much more customizable it could get. Heck, the didn't have to really ask Google's permission if they didn't want to (though they wouldn't get Google's apps then).
You are behind the times. For starters they do require google's permission to license Android. Without that permission they can use one of the earlier versions of Android that is now Open Source, but they cannot market the handset as being Android. As to being able to do what they want within Android - look at this article from Gizmodo
According to Bloomberg, Google has spent the last several months tightening the reigns on its Android partners. They're having licensees sign "non-fragmentation clauses" that give Mountain View final say over the platform tweaks that can cripple a perfectly good phone. The OEMs are up in arms, obviously, but they shouldn't be. Because what Google's doing is making sure consumers know exactly what they're getting. They're making "Android" mean something again.
Android is no longer wide open, and Nokia, as the biggest handset maker in the world obviously wants to be able to distinguish itself from other OEMS. In the Android space it perhaps was unable to negotiate special treatment, but MS obviously has fewer problems with fragmentation - because MS doesn't have a smartphone platform successful enough enough to have fragments.
The center is moved up so that Apple's share appears twice larger than what the numbers tell.
As the Yale professor Edward Tufte wrote, ?the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them?.
I hope this was the only one during that talk.
Hmm - I would say that the apple slice is pulled out in order to make it clearer. That the Apple slice might seem a bit too big is probably because the screen is at an angle to the camera.
As for pie charts, they're fine when you're showing a zero sum quantity like - hmm - market share.
Hmm - I would say that the apple slice is pulled out in order to make it clearer. That the Apple slice might seem a bit too big is probably because the screen is at an angle to the camera.
As for pie charts, they're fine when you're showing a zero sum quantity like - hmm - market share.
The green share is less then the purple share, but looks larger.
The green share is less then the purple share, but looks larger.
It's very slightly less, and the apparent size issue is a feature of the viewing angle, and perhaps the colour choices - it's not because the apple slice got pulled out. Note that the Orange slice looks to be much more than half of the purple, even though it's less.
Comments
Except in financial conference calls they never mention profit marketshare ( in fact even there they dont, analysts work it out).
Indeed - this is because 'profit marketshare' is extremely hard to measure accurately. Unlike marketshare itself which is available from market reserach surveys and from shipment figures, profit share has to be estimated from the various OEMs accounts. The accounts aren't even all published in the same regions under the same rules. Also there can be considerable motivation for a firm like Samsung to move profits from one division to another for tax purposes.
Revenue-share is somewhat more reliable because everybody at least agrees on what revenue is.
There is no doubt that Apple dominates the most profitable segments of the market, but it's unclear by exactly how much. There's also little doubt that Motorola and Sony Ericsson have had problems with profits, and that Nokia is seeing substantial profit erosion.
Elop (and MS) have done everything possible to destroy that support:
- Carriers do not want to hear about your great ecosystem (the want to sell value added services themselves)
- Do not blast about the coming "dual-SIM phones" if carriers are your main distributor. They hate dual SIM phones, because it makes it easier for the customer to take them to the cleaners.
- Do not buy Skype and announce to bring it to WP7. There is nothing on earth the carriers despise more.
As a result there are more and more sales points that downright refuse to sell Nokia smartphones, all while Nokia's dumbphones are under extreme pricing pressure from Asian phone makers, and there are no signs that Symbian/Qt developers are moving to WP7/Silverlight in droves... To make it even better, HTC is sending clear signals that it will concentrate more on Android.
This whole Nokia/MS deal will end as one of the biggest management mistakes in history. And Elop will be kicked out before the year is over.
By the way, Samsung is very flexible in a sense that they develop smartphones in multiple platforms: Android, its own Bada, and WP7. They could even make iOS phones if that can be licensed, lol. Wait a second, that could turn out to be a good strategy for Apple, lol.
While it would never happen, a licenced iOS to Samsung in it's home Market of Korea would work.
This is what most people fail to understand and the wall street idiot do not realize that think only selling more unit than anyone else is all that matters.
Actually, wall street is obsessed with gross margin. In any conference call if Apple guide lower on margin they get a lot of questions. As far as wall street is concerned lower margins may not lead to over all market share increases, at least - prior to the fact - they cant be certain it will.
In any case Jobs is almost never at conference calls - when he gets on stage to talk about share, it is market share. Clearly this makes sense. No point getting on the WWDC and saying market share is static, but profits are up. Devs dont care.
By the way, Samsung is very flexible in a sense that they develop smartphones in multiple platforms: Android, its own Bada, and WP7. They could even make iOS phones if that can be licensed, lol. Wait a second, that could turn out to be a good strategy for Apple, lol.
All that flexibility and they still lost marketshare in the US last quarter, in terms of total handsets. Samsung's problem is that Bada only plays in developing markets like South America, so their flexibility amounts to a choice between being a box-shifter for Android/WP7 or selling a budget system to developing nations. Now if Bada was a high value system like RIM or iOS then they'd be in a genuinely good place.
Nokia's spectacular fall from grace may buy Samsung some time, but the only Android/WP7 maker that really seems genuinely strong right now is HTC.
IMO Nokia will continue to fall. Those still buying Nokia today are largely symbian fans - lets see how quickly they jump ship when Nokia produces mainly Win7 high end phones.
Big wins coming up for android and apple.
Nokia's CEO compared the company to a "burning oil platform." He told employees that. No wonder they are all jumping furiously into the sea, an analogy that Elop equated to dumping Nokia's Symbian for WP7. They simply have no choice.
Oh, and one other thing: Elop revealed that Nokia first approached Google, but Google wouldn't let them customize Android for Nokia's needs, so they went to Microsoft and worked out a deal where Microsoft would let Nokia do whatever they wanted with WP7 in exchange for using WP7. Ironic that Google would not let them do that with their so-called "open" platform.
Ironic that Google would not let them do that with their so-called "open" platform.
Google is backtracking on that big-time in the face of system fragmentation. They're also not keen on OEMs and carriers making Bing versions of Android - for obvious reasons.
Nokia could have customized an older Open Sourced version, but they couldn't have used the Android brand if they'd done that.
Huh, from the way the media is playing all of this one would think Apple and iOS is doomed because of Android.
The difference, as many people have stated before, between android and ios in the market is that Android has many manufacturers and companies putting the software on their phones while Apple both makes their phones and the operating system for those phones. I think that if we were to take a look at the market share of android split up between each company you would see how much more market share Apple has then any single company running the android os.
I think that apple is doing quite well for themselves.
Oh, and one other thing: Elop revealed that Nokia first approached Google, but Google wouldn't let them customize Android for Nokia's needs, so they went to Microsoft and worked out a deal where Microsoft would let Nokia do whatever they wanted with WP7 in exchange for using WP7. Ironic that Google would not let them do that with their so-called "open" platform.
I call BS. I think Elop wanted transition money and Google wasn't willing to pay up. Android is open. They can install whatever apps they want on there. I don't know how much more customizable it could get. Heck, the didn't have to really ask Google's permission if they didn't want to (though they wouldn't get Google's apps then).
Moreover, it smacks of hypocrisy when they cry that Android wasn't customizable enough and then adopt WP7 which is even less flexible (in spite of their special deal with MS). They might have some flexibility but no way they have as much as they would have gotten with Android. And ultimately they can't deviate from the tiled look of WP7's Metro UI.
I think Elop is just making excuses to cover up his money grab. And now that he's hitched Nokia's future to WP7, he has to trash talk Android as much as he can.
Get off that kick. It'll only cause you pain.
Who says more marketshare demands a more "diverse" offering of products? That's crazy.
It is not a rule, it is also not crazy. It is reality for their competitors. Samsungs market share advantage does not translate to more leverage from suppliers because they make 10x the number of different smart phones than Apple does. They have a wide variety of configurations and I doubt there is any particular part they buy more of then Apple.
I call BS. I think Elop wanted transition money and Google wasn't willing to pay up. Android is open. They can install whatever apps they want on there. I don't know how much more customizable it could get. Heck, the didn't have to really ask Google's permission if they didn't want to (though they wouldn't get Google's apps then).
You are behind the times. For starters they do require google's permission to license Android. Without that permission they can use one of the earlier versions of Android that is now Open Source, but they cannot market the handset as being Android. As to being able to do what they want within Android - look at this article from Gizmodo
According to Bloomberg, Google has spent the last several months tightening the reigns on its Android partners. They're having licensees sign "non-fragmentation clauses" that give Mountain View final say over the platform tweaks that can cripple a perfectly good phone. The OEMs are up in arms, obviously, but they shouldn't be. Because what Google's doing is making sure consumers know exactly what they're getting. They're making "Android" mean something again.
Android is no longer wide open, and Nokia, as the biggest handset maker in the world obviously wants to be able to distinguish itself from other OEMS. In the Android space it perhaps was unable to negotiate special treatment, but MS obviously has fewer problems with fragmentation - because MS doesn't have a smartphone platform successful enough enough to have fragments.
Market share is used as leverage against suppliers to get better (cheaper) component prices.
If you think Steve doesnt care about market share, then you've certainly havent seen his keynote speeches for the past 5 years.
What is usually the first couple of slides that Steve talks about?
Exactly.
A rather eccentric graph, don't you think?
A rather eccentric graph, don't you think?
How do you mean? Looks a fairly standard Pie chart to me.
How do you mean? Looks a fairly standard Pie chart to me.
The center is moved up so that Apple's share appears twice larger than what the numbers tell.
As the Yale professor Edward Tufte wrote, ?the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them?.
I hope this was the only one during that talk.
The center is moved up so that Apple's share appears twice larger than what the numbers tell.
As the Yale professor Edward Tufte wrote, ?the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them?.
I hope this was the only one during that talk.
Hmm - I would say that the apple slice is pulled out in order to make it clearer. That the Apple slice might seem a bit too big is probably because the screen is at an angle to the camera.
As for pie charts, they're fine when you're showing a zero sum quantity like - hmm - market share.
Hmm - I would say that the apple slice is pulled out in order to make it clearer. That the Apple slice might seem a bit too big is probably because the screen is at an angle to the camera.
As for pie charts, they're fine when you're showing a zero sum quantity like - hmm - market share.
The green share is less then the purple share, but looks larger.
The green share is less then the purple share, but looks larger.
It's very slightly less, and the apparent size issue is a feature of the viewing angle, and perhaps the colour choices - it's not because the apple slice got pulled out. Note that the Orange slice looks to be much more than half of the purple, even though it's less.
The center is moved up so that Apple's share appears twice larger than what the numbers tell.
As the Yale professor Edward Tufte wrote, ?the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them?.
I hope this was the only one during that talk.
To be fair to Apple there is a BIG PERCENT SIGN on each slice of pie.
The center is moved up so that Apple's share appears twice larger than what the numbers tell.
As the Yale professor Edward Tufte wrote, ?the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them?.
I hope this was the only one during that talk.
The thing was animated. Steve's highlighting Apple's share right now, so the slice is bigger for that purpose.