Motorola litigation against Apple will continue, despite Google deal

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 43
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Is if Apple refused to pay at all. Or did they feel that the amount Motorola was asking for was above and beyond fair and reasonable and refused to pay that amount and Motorola wouldn't budge.



    Because while patent holders are allowed to set their own terms if they are demanding crazy amounts they can get dinged in court over it because it is deemed anti-competitive
  • Reply 22 of 43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    Is if Apple refused to pay at all. Or did they feel that the amount Motorola was asking for was above and beyond fair and reasonable and refused to pay that amount and Motorola wouldn't budge.



    Because while patent holders are allowed to set their own terms if they are demanding crazy amounts they can get dinged in court over it because it is deemed anti-competitive



    ... or Apple was quite sure that Google would take the bait and in Apple's mind this would be suicide for Google.
  • Reply 23 of 43
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Motorola is suing Apple largely over Motorola's wi-fi related patents. The claims are similar to when Nokia sued Apple. Motorola offered the named patents to a patent body for all members to use under reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. Apple as being a member of the patent body has used the patents in question on many products, with Motorola having no problem with Apple's use. Now Apple is attacking Motorola's key business, and it wants Apple to pay for a license. Apple's argument is either it is not required to pay (as Motorola doesn't charge for the patent) or Motorola's terms are unreasonable and discriminatory.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    Is if Apple refused to pay at all. Or did they feel that the amount Motorola was asking for was above and beyond fair and reasonable and refused to pay that amount and Motorola wouldn't budge.



    Because while patent holders are allowed to set their own terms if they are demanding crazy amounts they can get dinged in court over it because it is deemed anti-competitive



  • Reply 24 of 43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Of course they can. \ Simple to make them available under the Open Handset Alliance Agreement if they wish. That doesn't mean they will.





    If they do that, expect an Anti-trust investigation soon.



    PLUS, being a licensee of a patent DOES NOT mean Samsung, HTC, etc. own the patents.
  • Reply 25 of 43
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    They've got a lot better chance of a fair deal from Microsoft than from Google.



    How do you figure? Microsoft offered Nokia a special deal. They get to make modifications to WP7 that nobody else gets to make (though customization still isn't close to anything available in Android). And for that deal, Nokia had to commit to going Windows Phone 7 only.



    Do you really think Samsung wants to sign a deal to be WP7 exclusive and be forced to ditch Android and Bada? Or that HTC wants to be forced into a WP7 exclusive arrangement?



    There's a lot of wishful thinking in these parts based on a hatred of Google. But not all of it is necessarily sensible. Just look at people who think Oracle wants to kill Android (instead of you know making money from it as would be the sensible thing to do).
  • Reply 26 of 43
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post


    I guess HTC is going to be their sacrificial lamb. After Apple succeeds in their suit against them, Google will work feverishly to change the Android OS to avoid those same patent infringements. They won't tell Samsung since they're already in bed with Apple (even though they're suing each other). LG, Sony and the rest will basically dump Android and go W7 after Microsoft gives them an easy way to reuse their handsets that they have waiting to come out with Android.



    Can you please share what you're smoking?



    Your fantasy is driven by your dislike of Google. Thankfully, most CEOs don't think that way. They are in it to make money. They'll do that using whatever tools are available. LG, SE, etc. won't suddenly start making WP7 phones by the boatloads just because MM is now owned by Google. They aren't going to make products unless customers buy them. If there was demand for WP7 handsets, you would have already seen massive movement to WP7 from Android. It's not happening. And this agreement won't suddenly reverse trends.



    Consumer demand drives what company produces. Not the other way around. Apple being a rare exception to that, I think most Apple fans forget how the rest of the world actually operates.
  • Reply 27 of 43
    wovelwovel Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kirkgray View Post


    I'm sure Google will set all the patents they've acquired free under some open license where anyone can use them free of charge.



    Google is all about Open.



    We need a Gold star smiley. So many people fail to grasp this simple concept. I suspect plans for all of Motorola's phones will be made available free on the Internet so everyone can build their own. First, everyone built their PCs at home, now Google is going to allow us to do the same for our phones.
  • Reply 28 of 43
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 3,001member
    If lawsuits are anticompetitive, nobody was suing Google. So what's the fuss? Google has been free all along to "innovate".



    Larry "That's my real name" Page... What a casaba. What a maroon!
  • Reply 29 of 43
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post


    And Google CANT give this patents away for free to Samsung,HTC, etc. The only way this will happen without attracting an ANTI-TRUST investigation, is if Google allows Samsung, HTC to license Motorola's patents for a FEE.





    Ummm. Yes they can choose to license the patents to OHA members for free. Jha already discussed elements of this earlier when he indicated that MM owned a lot of patents that didn't have to do with wireless standards but were vital to product differentiation and competition. Licensing those will make all the difference. The standards patents? Those will be licensed like all standard patents always are.
  • Reply 30 of 43
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kirkgray View Post


    I'm sure Google will set all the patents they've acquired free under some open license where anyone can use them free of charge.



    Google is all about Open.



    You maybe being facetious, but it's not all that far from how Google actually operates. I can fully see them licensing all the patents to any OHA member and anybody else who agrees not to sue any member of the Android ecosystem. Just look at Google's history with the VP8 codec. They have spent money to acquire the IP and open source it.



    Then again, far too many people (Apple and Android fans included), have utterly moronic and misinformed notions of what "Open", "Open Source", etc. implies and means and what it means to Google.
  • Reply 31 of 43
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jetz View Post


    How do you figure? Microsoft offered Nokia a special deal. They get to make modifications to WP7 that nobody else gets to make (though customization still isn't close to anything available in Android). And for that deal, Nokia had to commit to going Windows Phone 7 only.



    Do you have a copy of the Microsoft/Nokia agreement? I didn't think so.



    Does the fact that Microsoft offered Nokia some special modifications mean that they can't offer modifications for other companies? Or are you even sure that no one else can have the same mods?



    The fact is that the other hardware vendors WILL get screwed by Google. The fact that there might be a slight advantage for Nokia (even if true) is probably still less intrusive.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jetz View Post


    Do you really think Samsung wants to sign a deal to be WP7 exclusive and be forced to ditch Android and Bada? Or that HTC wants to be forced into a WP7 exclusive arrangement?.



    I don't think anyone suggested that Samsung or HTC would ditch Android. Nor did anyone say that anyone else would sign an exclusive with Microsoft. Rather, what was suggested was that the balance has now shifted - Microsoft looks better than they did before and Android looks worse than they did before. That's indisputable.
  • Reply 32 of 43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kirkgray View Post


    I'm sure Google will set all the patents they've acquired free under some open license where anyone can use them free of charge.



    Google is all about Open.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jetz View Post


    You maybe being facetious, but it's not all that far from how Google actually operates. I can fully see them licensing all the patents to any OHA member and anybody else who agrees not to sue any member of the Android ecosystem. Just look at Google's history with the VP8 codec. They have spent money to acquire the IP and open source it.



    Then again, far too many people (Apple and Android fans included), have utterly moronic and misinformed notions of what "Open", "Open Source", etc. implies and means and what it means to Google.



    Actually, no this would be a marked change for Google. Previously, they've stolen patented ideas and copyrighted works and then turned around and announced that they were open and free. Actually paying for the patents is a very new idea to Google.
  • Reply 33 of 43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jetz View Post


    Ummm. Yes they can choose to license the patents to OHA members for free. Jha already discussed elements of this earlier when he indicated that MM owned a lot of patents that didn't have to do with wireless standards but were vital to product differentiation and competition. Licensing those will make all the difference. The standards patents? Those will be licensed like all standard patents always are.



    being a licensee of a patent DOES NOT mean Samsung, HTC, etc. own the patents.





    Bottom line: samsung, HTC, etc. CANT use these Google-owned patents to DEFEND themselves from Ms, Apple, Oracle, etc.
  • Reply 34 of 43
    zaim2zaim2 Posts: 45member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Do you have a copy of the Microsoft/Nokia agreement?



    No, but the Nokia blog has a summary :



    Quote:

    3. In recognition of the unique nature of Nokia's agreement with Microsoft and the contributions that Nokia is providing, Nokia will receive payments measured in the billions of dollars.



    http://press.nokia.com/2011/04/21/no...d-of-schedule/



    Unlikely Microsoft would pay HTC/Samsung X billion dollars without a legal guarantee that they'd spend it solely on WP7 and a cross-licensing deal. HTC and Samsung won't want to give up that much autonomy when they can play both sides of the fence, especially since WP7 is still unproven.
  • Reply 35 of 43
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Do you have a copy of the Microsoft/Nokia agreement?



    Do you?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    I didn't think so.



    Yet, there are/were numerous news reports at the time that Nokia has been allowed "special" modifications like building in its Ovi (now Nokia Services) suites, not to mention the billion bucks they got from MS.



    I'm sure you're a big boy and can use Google to find enough information on the deal. You know damn well, Nokia got a deal that nobody else is being offered. Otherwise, do you care to speculate, why no other OEM has gone whole hog on Windows Phone 7? Heck, Motorola refused to even make a single WP7 handset despite threats from MS.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Does the fact that Microsoft offered Nokia some special modifications mean that they can't offer modifications for other companies? Or are you even sure that no one else can have the same mods?



    I'm sure MS can offer something to the other guys. But what's in it for the other OEMs? HTC's interest lies in making hardware for multiple platforms. They have never been a one-horse company. And they're starting to use and develop Brew in the same fashion as Samsung developing Bada as a backup. Maybe the guys who don't have a back-pocket OS, like SE and LG. But again, why haven't they gravitated towards WP7, after all these months?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    The fact is that the other hardware vendors WILL get screwed by Google. The fact that there might be a slight advantage for Nokia (even if true) is probably still less intrusive.



    Your "facts" are your speculation and assertions, unsupported by a shred of evidence. Do you have any actual proof that other hardware vendors will most definitively "get screwed by Google." Please share, I'd love to be able to call my broker before the day ends.



    As for Nokia's slight advantage....given how locked down WP7 is to the OEMs, their advantage is far from slight. You have MS dictating which tiles appear on the homescreen yet letting Nokia run all mapping software from Ovi instead of Bing. That's not "slight" by any but your apple-tinted glasses. No other OEM has the ability or interest to come close to that. They can all customize Android far more than anything MS is even allowing Nokia to do. If people think that Android is damaging handset ASPs, just imagine what WP7 with MS extremely tight (not necessarily a bad thing from the consumer perspective) design standards would mean. It's pretty much impossible to distinguish one WP7 handset from another. And this is what OEMs are supposed to flock towards?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    I don't think anyone suggested that Samsung or HTC would ditch Android. Nor did anyone say that anyone else would sign an exclusive with Microsoft.



    Some have suggested OEMs would ditch Android. See comments prior to yours.



    As for getting the exclusive....if any OEM wants what Nokia has they will have to agree pretty much to what Nokia did. Nokia is ditching Symbian and Meego and foregoing any Android development for the forseeable future. That's quite a commitment. They had a lot more to give up. You honestly believe MS won't demand that companies like LG, SE, HTC, Samsung give up all other operating systems to get a similar deal?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Rather, what was suggested was that the balance has now shifted - Microsoft looks better than they did before and Android looks worse than they did before. That's indisputable.



    What's indisputable is your bias and the lens through which you look at the news. I see positive and negatives for other Android OEMs. And a lot of this really depends on how much MM will be integrated into Google. It's far too early to tell. Google may well strip the IP and sell the manufacturing business to somebody else.



    As for MS looking better. That's a wash. Google just removed the threat of MM suing its fellow Android OEMs. That's a huge legal threat that's been removed. And Google may (albeit a big if) be successful at using these patents to protect Android OEMs from Microsoft's extortion. If that happens, why would companies suddenly want to migrate to WP7.



    I agree that it's odd for Google to own a hardware company. I certainly find it odd. But if they are committed to running MM as a standalone company, and there's scant evidence that they bought MM for anything other than the patents, then there's still no real basis for other OEMs to run into MS' arms to embrace a mobile OS that consumers just aren't buying. And that's the real problem MS has, consumers dont want their mobile OS.
  • Reply 36 of 43
    zaim2zaim2 Posts: 45member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post


    being a licensee of a patent DOES NOT mean Samsung, HTC, etc. own the patents.





    Bottom line: samsung, HTC, etc. CANT use these Google-owned patents to DEFEND themselves from Ms, Apple, Oracle, etc.



    But Google CAN use Google-owned patents to file a motion to intervene in individual infringement cases, which is the whole point.
  • Reply 37 of 43
    jetzjetz Posts: 1,293member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post


    being a licensee of a patent DOES NOT mean Samsung, HTC, etc. own the patents.



    Correct.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post


    Bottom line: samsung, HTC, etc. CANT use these Google-owned patents to DEFEND themselves from Ms, Apple, Oracle, etc.



    Partially correct. Google could easily sue MS, Apple and Oracle using its patent horde and then insist on cross-licensing deals for all OHA members. Not saying it will happen. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. You're just not thinking like a lawyer.
  • Reply 38 of 43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jetz View Post


    Correct.



    Partially correct. Google could easily sue MS, Apple and Oracle using its patent horde and then insist on cross-licensing deals for all OHA members. Not saying it will happen. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. You're just not thinking like a lawyer.





    Motorola is already suing Apple.



    Here's scenario 1:



    - motorola wins, apple pays



    - apple, ms, oracle continues it suit against htc, samsung.



    - apple, ms, oracle wins. samsung, htc, etc. are f'ed.





    here's scenario 2:



    - apple wins



    - apple, ms, oracle continues it suit against htc, samsung.





    - apple, ms, oracle wins. samsung, htc, etc. are f'ed.



    See? either way Samsung, HTC, etc. are f'ed.
  • Reply 39 of 43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post


    Motorola is already suing Apple.



    Here's scenario 1:



    - motorola wins, apple pays



    - apple, ms, oracle continues it suit against htc, samsung.



    - apple, ms, oracle wins. samsung, htc, etc. are f'ed.




    Not really, if Moto wins, then Apple loses because Apple would not be able to sell their iPhones (although I doubt Moto would win), at that point doesn't really matter if Samsung/HTC loses as well. That's why if Moto was actually winning, Apple would be willing to negotiate with Google and just say ok we'll settle with everyone and compete on other grounds instead of patents.
  • Reply 40 of 43
    robogoborobogobo Posts: 378member
    Desperation is a stinky cologne, Larry.
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