Baidu forks Android to introduce its own mobile OS for China

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  • Reply 121 of 239
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by d-range View Post


    Not saying this to offend you, but you really come off as being in denial about Android fragmentation, and that way failing to recognize the real reasons why Netflix isn't on your Galaxy Tab or why you have to root some devices to run Tegra games.



    The point is: fragmentation is not just about what the hardware and software *can* do, but also what people companies and *actually do with it*. Like someone before me pointed out, Netflix has contracts that require them to warrant a certain level of security, and this takes time and money for each OS and each piece of hardware, so they decide to support only a few. Nvidia wants to promote their own hardware, so they decide to make deals with game companies to have their games only run on Tegra, even though other chips would work just fine. Amazon wants to have you buy everything through Amazon, so they leave out competing offerings and make their own app store. Companies like Epic and Id have products that are so expensive to develop and maintain, and are so critically dependent on hardware features, that they don't want to take a gamble investing too much into the Android platform. Developers and content providers who want to sell stuff do not want to have to deal with 20 different app stores and payment systems, so they pick one or two and leave the others out. I can go on for hours.



    None of these examples are about hardware, but about logistics, cost-benefit analysis, risk, corporate politics, promoting own products, etc. If you can't see how this kind of fragmentation decreases value for the end-user, you are either blind or in denial.



    Then, after all of this, comes the hardware fragmentation, which is also a pretty big issue for many types of applications. Not for a Twitter client, but definitely for a game studio. The Angry Birds example you linked is pretty ironic, seeing that shortly after that statement, Rovio actually apologized about how shitty their Android port ran on many handsets, and promised to create simplified version of it. It doesn't matter if it ran shitty because of ads, because if Rovio thought they could offer the game on Android without ads and still make good money, they wouldn't have to include ads in the first place. The same thinking goes for many other Android applications by the way: they need to include ads, because there are simply too many Android users who cannot buy the ad-free version, or simply don't want to because they are trained to think applications have to be 'free'. It's a real issue that is keeping AAA titles away from Android, even with the largest marketshare, there are thousands of AAA apps that are exclusively on iOS, yet there are virtually none that are exclusive on Android.



    The issue keeping AAA apps from Android is monitization more than fragmentation. I'm not in denial about Android fragmentation. I've admitted COUNTLESS times that it existed. What I'm saying is that it is not the deal-breaker you're trying to make it out to be. I've even provided links where DEVELOPERS say as much. There are many others. And there are others on top of THAT from developers who've made money with Android.



    There are TWO. Let's me say that again, TWO major app stores for android. If you want to hit most users you just need to develop for ONE. (amazon doesn't currently hit ANY devices the android market does not). The other app stores exist to offer paid app content to countries where the Android market can't offer it yet, and that list of countries is shrinking dramatically. Most app developers, if they even bother with those markets, will choose one or two markets to host content on, and that's it. There's not "20 different markets" they have to worry about hitting. That's a fallacy made up by people who don't use android, and parroted by people here who don't know any better.



    and Rovio's angry birds port ran like shit because of the ADS. If you downloaded the (ad free) demo, it worked flawlessly on low end devices, or if these devices were rooted and ran an ad-blocker (which I don't support) it also ran well. The problem wasn't their app, it was their shitty implementation of ads. Apps with ads can run great on low end devices with ads enabled, so it wasn't ads causing the problem, just their implementation.



    Fragmentation is a minor issue for all but an extreme minority of app-types. The problem is, developers want to port over their hard coded app from iOS and have it run flawlessly. These developers are stupid. the Android team has dozens of tutorials up on how to code around the screen size and OS issues, most of the developers you hear complaining are talking about points already dealt with in these tutorials.



    The problem is the money. Android doesn't have an ecosystem like iTunes behind it. They don't have giftcards available everywhere, or a CHEAP non-smartphone device that can access the content (ipod touch) to expand the market past smartphone users. Heck, look at the amazon app store as an example. Developers pretty much universally agree it's SHIT to develop for because updates take weeks to push through, Amazon changes the terms all the time, and it's US only. And yet because of the ECOSYSTEM Amazon has, it's attracted new apps to the Android platform, some of which still have their apps exclusively on the limited market.
  • Reply 122 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brainless View Post


    I got your point. But this is just a nature of things based on fact the Apple has virtually just one model of the phone and there are plenty of choices for Android. Want iPhone with HW keyboard ? Waterproof iPhone ? No way, that's just the other side of the coin.



    And this is why I think comparing Android to iOS is almost meaningless. Hardware keyboard and waterproofing are basically hardware features for people who just want a phone for a specific purpose. If it surfs the web, great. Runs apps? OK cool. None of those things would be necessary for that market which means having a viable ecosystem is not needed much less a fairly wholistic one. Basically Android can have 70% of the market, but if half of those people don't really care about apps, what real incentive is there for developers to bring the latest and greatest to all devices? It just leaves fragmented markets that they need to research and then target. Is the Droid used by "power users" who actually buy/download apps? OK, let's target that phone. Is the Samsung Galaxy used for people who like to play games? OK, we will target that phone. I really don't think that is the best strategy.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    But IMHO it's no more of an issue for the developers and users than the inability to even find good apps in Apple's Appstore. Not offering categories, or even an easy way to find highly rated applications, makes finding and purchasing newly released but quality apps a big problem. If you don't know the name you're looking for, how do you find them? Stumbling around? If I'm interested in subscribing to a tech magazine, how do I search? Or looking for a time manager, same question. The Android Market doesn't have the same problems in identifying quality apps in the area you're interested in. Search by name, keyword, categories or rating.



    The App Store is far from perfect (and will never be since it has almost a half million products) but I'm not sure where you are going with this. The apps do have categories. Are some of them mislabeled? Sure. But I haven't had a huge problem with this. Also, Apple does have app genuis as well to help find apps. The main issue with both platforms is that developers need to realize that both stores are equivilant to brick and mortars which means that SOME form of marketing/advertising is needed for any real success. If Apple chooses someone's app as staff picks or features it in a TV commercial, great, but a person can't really rely on it. It takes some actual work like reaching out to tech blogs with a press release of new or distinct features or time limited discount, investing in mobile ads, commenting on sites like this with RELEVANT comments (not spam), etc. Simply submitting an app and hoping customers flock to it is the same as a shoe store depending on word-of-mouth.
  • Reply 123 of 239
    Duplicate
  • Reply 124 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Menno and Gatorguy aren't so much in denial as that they are paid to deny.



    Yeah...



    they gotta' Ac-CEN-tu-ATE the NEG-a-tive, E-LIM-in-ATE the POS-i-TIVE, SCRATCH OFF of the af-FIRM-a-TIVE ... (and don't mess with Mr. In-between)...



    ...Apologies to Johnny Mercer
  • Reply 125 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by soggybacon View Post


    Cough cough... lawsuit... cough cough...



    It's an OPEN source system, how can they sue, it's not like say Java or something that you pay royalties on.
  • Reply 126 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post


    It's an OPEN source system, how can they sue, it's not like say Java or something that you pay royalties on.



    Android is in no way open source.



    Sorry, that's a little sweeping.



    Android is in no way entirely open source. There's plenty there that has been stolen that could be sued over.



    Of course, that which has been stolen and that which hasn't was originally stolen by Google and can also be sued over.
  • Reply 127 of 239
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Google has already said they will not give the newest OS version to forked version of Android. How are they going to keep up with API's.



    Google has stated that APIs are expressions of pure function and not copyrightable. Oracle disagrees and claims that API structures are not purely functional and are therefore expressions of creativity and copyrightable.



    If forks can't duplicate Android APIs then Android is dead anyway.
  • Reply 128 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Android is in no way open source.



    Sorry, that's a little sweeping.



    Android is in no way entirely open source. There's plenty there that has been stolen that could be sued over.



    Of course, that which has been stolen and that which hasn't was originally stolen by Google and can also be sued over.



    The problem is where do they sue? If the phone (and possible tablet?) is sold and used in only China and Baidu is a Chinese government backed company, there is simply no way Google could win a case against them.
  • Reply 129 of 239
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post


    The problem is where do they sue? If the phone (and possible tablet?) is sold and used in only China and Baidu is a Chinese government backed company, there is simply no way Google could win a case against them.



    And no way that Apple is going to sue them for any "Look And Feel" stuff or even touchscreen/multi-touch usage.
  • Reply 130 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    And no way that Apple is going to sue them for any "Look And Feel" stuff or even touchscreen/multi-touch usage.



    Yeah, I don't see that flying either although Apple did get the government to bust the fake Apple Stores (although I think that had more to do with angry consumers).
  • Reply 131 of 239
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Android is in no way open source.



    Sorry, that's a little sweeping.



    Android is in no way entirely open source. There's plenty there that has been stolen that could be sued over.



    Of course, that which has been stolen and that which hasn't was originally stolen by Google and can also be sued over.



    People sue over everything, anything. Heck, Apple's been sued (and lost) over tech that they also acquired a patent for.



    That's the problem. It's impossible to develop ANYTHING without infringing on patents somewhere.
  • Reply 132 of 239
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post


    The problem is where do they sue? If the phone (and possible tablet?) is sold and used in only China and Baidu is a Chinese government backed company, there is simply no way Google could win a case against them.



    They WOULDN'T SUE. What Baidu is doing is perfectly legal as far as Google is concerned. They may wish for a different outcome, but as long as Baidu doesn't include GApps or the Android Market, what they do with the source is Their business.
  • Reply 133 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    That's the problem. It's impossible to develop ANYTHING without infringing on patents somewhere.



    I don't buy that.
  • Reply 134 of 239
    "google should stop complaining and start innovating"

    - Baidu
  • Reply 135 of 239
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    I don't buy that.



    Really? Name a SINGLE product made in the last decade that has anything approaching success and HASN'T been sued?



    EDIT:

    Interesting Side Note: Most Android blogs, or android leaning blogs are reporting this fork as just another company leveraging android. It's only on sites like this that people are screaming about Fragmentation.



    The reason is that most of those sites see that Baidu had three options:



    1) Adopt Android as is, which they can't do since Google is a direct competitor.

    2) Take an existing OS and customize it for their own purposes (what they chose)

    3) Spend millions developing another mobile platform from scratch that wouldn't be compatible with anything.



    If they did option 3, then "android fragmentation" wouldn't exist, with the platform, that's right. But instead of trying to coax developers into customizing apps to line up with their changes, they'd have to convince them to start from scratch to get the game running on a WHOLE new platform.



    So while managing an app across android "forks" might be less than ideal, it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to manage it across yet another new programming language. A fact that a lot of people here seem to forget.
  • Reply 136 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    Really? Name a SINGLE product made in the last decade that has anything approaching success and HASN'T been sued?



    And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.
  • Reply 137 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post


    And this is why I think comparing Android to iOS is almost meaningless. Hardware keyboard and waterproofing are basically hardware features for people who just want a phone for a specific purpose. If it surfs the web, great. Runs apps? OK cool. None of those things would be necessary for that market which means having a viable ecosystem is not needed much less a fairly wholistic one. Basically Android can have 70% of the market, but if half of those people don't really care about apps, what real incentive is there for developers to bring the latest and greatest to all devices? It just leaves fragmented markets that they need to research and then target. Is the Droid used by "power users" who actually buy/download apps? OK, let's target that phone. Is the Samsung Galaxy used for people who like to play games? OK, we will target that phone. I really don't think that is the best strategy.






    why would they target just a phone? that would be retarded. you can target specs so if your app requires phones with such and such minimum specs then it'll show only for phones that meet those requirements. API exists only in 2.3+? then boom. ultimately it seems you don't know as much about android as you think you do. logically you shouldn't make such sweeping assessments while being uninformed.



    but that just makes sense.
  • Reply 138 of 239
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.



    what else could they be sued for?
  • Reply 139 of 239
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    The fragmentation problem for Google is the obvious one...Baidu's fork will essentially kill Android growth in China while doing nothing to iOS and moderate to wp7. It doesn't MATTER to Google if the apps run on Baidu phones if Google is shut out of its Android monetization plans in China. Heaven help Google if this fork gains traction outside of China and into asia proper (unlikely in the extreme).



    However, Korean Android or whatever also potentially locks out Google although less likely to. Unless, of course, MS writes someone an appropriately big check.



    Amazon's fork, while still using the Google search engine as default, kills a lot of the tie in for other Google services and eyeball count.



    So here you are as Google, out millions/billions for Android development and then another $12B for Moto and you STILL don't have your second revenue stream locked down. When is Android going in the black? And if it can't why dump more money down this particular pit as opposed to pulling another Google Wave and "gifting" the code to open source?
  • Reply 140 of 239
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.



    http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index...58000000000599



    It's been estimated that nearly a quarter million patents are involved in building one of today's smartphones. That's why every smartphone manufacturer is sued, often multiple times, for patent infringement. I'd have to agree with the idea that you cannot build a smartphone or tablet without infringing, or at least being accused of it.
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