Almost 10,000 posts between all of us in this thread. Imagine if we put that time into creative endeavors. Ah hell, we still wouldn't be as talented as Michael.
I hope he follows through and picks a good art school to go to. He has talent and the desire, and getting a proper foundation art education and following that through to more advanced graphic design studios would really do wonders with this kid. His ambition is obviously there, he just needs someone to open it up. I'm not saying he isn't talented, because he is, but art school does a number on you
<strong>Almost 10,000 posts between all of us in this thread. Imagine if we put that time into creative endeavors. Ah hell, we still wouldn't be as talented as Michael. </strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>I hope he follows through and picks a good art school to go to. He has talent and the desire, and getting a proper foundation art education and following that through to more advanced graphic design studios would really do wonders with this kid. His ambition is obviously there, he just needs someone to open it up. I'm not saying he isn't talented, because he is, but art school does a number on you </strong><hr></blockquote>
On the job training is ALWAYS better than learning "outdated" knowledge in school
Gotta tell you. I only have high school diploma and never took any formal art-related training in college.
I remember when I tried applying to Graphic Design program in some art school or some college. The verdicts from those instructors in those places are like this:
"Your stuff doesn't look professional enough"
"Your stuff is too generic"
"We expect all our grads from this program to be standing at the cutting edge. But you aren't that type of student we are looking for"
Well......my reaction was "FU*K YOU!"
I actually am kind of glad they didn't accept my applications. Beacause of those rejection I knew exactly which way I should go to......
Also.....I talked to some grads from those schools and they all hated the programs and the instructors.....stubborn old freaks, old equipments, etc.........
Graduating from famous school doesn't make you a genis. This is the person himself counts.
Same on user/equipment. Equipment won't turn a dumb a$$ smart
Leonis, I think you miss the point about receiving a formal art education. Talent and ambition can only bring you so far. I should know. My mom was named Pennsylvania Art Education Association's "Art Educator of the Year for Higher Education" this year and my brother is an art major at a high profile local college.
Leonis, I think you miss the point about receiving a formal art education. Talent and ambition can only bring you so far. I should know. My mom was named Pennsylvania Art Education Association's "Art Educator of the Year for Higher Education" this year and my brother is an art major at a high profile local college.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know what you mean.
I agree education is important
My point was that too many people overlook about those trainings from schools.
I can't imagine how the lessons from a truly academic education could ever be "outdated."
the education you get at an academy is obliged to be academic. Once you accept its inherent limits, it can really help you. Ideally it doesn't teach how to do things; it should teach you how to learn things.
I guess it depends on your goals. You don't need a formal education to succeed. You don't need a lot of things. And using our example citizen, Michael, he could continue on happily doing what he does, teach himself some new things, and pick up that on the job 'real life' training. But he is only going to go so far. So if you really want to excel at something, you give a lot into it.
For example, as a cyclist, I know I don't give 100%. I never did. Cycling was never everything to me, but it was always terribly important. During my competitive years, I never did any serious weight training. I raced almost every weekend, rode a lot with my friends. I love the sport, but there is a limit to how far I am willing to take it. Case in point: I know of nobody in the European peleton that doesn't work their upper and lower body in the gym at least 8 hours a week, and that doesn't count the time they spend on the bike. These atheletes took it farther; they wanted to be the best, and they are.
I look at Michael's work, and it's good. But if you read that interview, and you look at the extent of his work so far, and it's definitely lacking something. I don't want to go into critiquing the kid's work, but I'll tell you what he will learn from a solid art education at the right school.
He will learn how to be comfortable drawing and sketching with a pencil and paper. He's going to work wth mediums he isn't used to, like clay, metal, canvas and paints, possibly a camera, etceteras. He is going to have instructors criticise his work in an attempt to get him to think more about his work and to push it further. And that is the key phrase there: push it further. You're only going to go so far if yo don't push yourself further, and I suppose if you're OK with only going that far, then that's your choice.
I'm a full time studio artist at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, and the things Leonis has said were said to him I have never experienced at the museum. I've work in every two dimensional medium offered at the museum, and I've had some pretty rough critiques. But the critiques aren't there to make you feel bad. They're there to get answers from your work. Why do you do this? Have you thought about doing this with your work? Have you tried using light sensitive materials with this process? What do you think about _____ in relation to your work? Have you studied this particular artist before?
Before I went to the SMFA to study, I had four years of real world experience (and no high school diploma mind you). I worked on a lot of stuff that was broadcast on TNT, TBS, Cartoon Network, CNN, etceteras. I was offered a job for $70,000 a year before coming up to Boston. I loved my work then. It was good, and it was good enough to get a decent job, but I realized my work was only going to go so far on this path, and I really wanted to explore the idea of making art for art's sake instead of making art because my boss or client told me to.
Michael is a good kid, he has done some exceptional work. But has he really studied contemporary art? Does he know what influenced contemporary artists and why? Has he ever really had a tough critique with an artist that has been doing what he is doing now for about 30 years longer? Has he ever worked in a medium that doesn't involve a computer?
Even getting an education in liberal arts at a university will contibute positively. It's good to know how the world works and why. Don't ever discount that. If all you care about is just getting a job to make a living and you're happy with that, I guess that is your call. I do hope that something out there encourages you to 'take it further' though.
(this has been directed at anybody who thinks a formal education is worthless )
I do know I am a bit biased about training in art school due to my experience. But people don't deny on job training, getting ideas from other big artist, are usually more practical
Comments
I suppose "real life" keeps him more busy nowadays.
ahhh.... guess I'm a loser compared to him
<strong>I (or ALL of us) have to agree that he's so f*cking good on icon stuff.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed, though I'd like a word with him if he's responsible for the new OmniWeb icon. It's horrible.
<strong>Almost 10,000 posts between all of us in this thread. Imagine if we put that time into creative endeavors. Ah hell, we still wouldn't be as talented as Michael. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Here's another grand.
And to keep it on topic, yes, very sweet icons.
<strong>I hope he follows through and picks a good art school to go to. He has talent and the desire, and getting a proper foundation art education and following that through to more advanced graphic design studios would really do wonders with this kid. His ambition is obviously there, he just needs someone to open it up. I'm not saying he isn't talented, because he is, but art school does a number on you </strong><hr></blockquote>
On the job training is ALWAYS better than learning "outdated" knowledge in school
Gotta tell you. I only have high school diploma and never took any formal art-related training in college.
I remember when I tried applying to Graphic Design program in some art school or some college. The verdicts from those instructors in those places are like this:
"Your stuff doesn't look professional enough"
"Your stuff is too generic"
"We expect all our grads from this program to be standing at the cutting edge. But you aren't that type of student we are looking for"
Well......my reaction was "FU*K YOU!"
I actually am kind of glad they didn't accept my applications. Beacause of those rejection I knew exactly which way I should go to......
Also.....I talked to some grads from those schools and they all hated the programs and the instructors.....stubborn old freaks, old equipments, etc.........
Graduating from famous school doesn't make you a genis. This is the person himself counts.
Same on user/equipment. Equipment won't turn a dumb a$$ smart
[ 11-03-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</p>
Leonis, I think you miss the point about receiving a formal art education. Talent and ambition can only bring you so far. I should know. My mom was named Pennsylvania Art Education Association's "Art Educator of the Year for Higher Education" this year and my brother is an art major at a high profile local college.
<strong> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Leonis, I think you miss the point about receiving a formal art education. Talent and ambition can only bring you so far. I should know. My mom was named Pennsylvania Art Education Association's "Art Educator of the Year for Higher Education" this year and my brother is an art major at a high profile local college.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know what you mean.
I agree education is important
My point was that too many people overlook about those trainings from schools.
[ 11-03-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</p>
the education you get at an academy is obliged to be academic. Once you accept its inherent limits, it can really help you. Ideally it doesn't teach how to do things; it should teach you how to learn things.
For example, as a cyclist, I know I don't give 100%. I never did. Cycling was never everything to me, but it was always terribly important. During my competitive years, I never did any serious weight training. I raced almost every weekend, rode a lot with my friends. I love the sport, but there is a limit to how far I am willing to take it. Case in point: I know of nobody in the European peleton that doesn't work their upper and lower body in the gym at least 8 hours a week, and that doesn't count the time they spend on the bike. These atheletes took it farther; they wanted to be the best, and they are.
I look at Michael's work, and it's good. But if you read that interview, and you look at the extent of his work so far, and it's definitely lacking something. I don't want to go into critiquing the kid's work, but I'll tell you what he will learn from a solid art education at the right school.
He will learn how to be comfortable drawing and sketching with a pencil and paper. He's going to work wth mediums he isn't used to, like clay, metal, canvas and paints, possibly a camera, etceteras. He is going to have instructors criticise his work in an attempt to get him to think more about his work and to push it further. And that is the key phrase there: push it further. You're only going to go so far if yo don't push yourself further, and I suppose if you're OK with only going that far, then that's your choice.
I'm a full time studio artist at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, and the things Leonis has said were said to him I have never experienced at the museum. I've work in every two dimensional medium offered at the museum, and I've had some pretty rough critiques. But the critiques aren't there to make you feel bad. They're there to get answers from your work. Why do you do this? Have you thought about doing this with your work? Have you tried using light sensitive materials with this process? What do you think about _____ in relation to your work? Have you studied this particular artist before?
Before I went to the SMFA to study, I had four years of real world experience (and no high school diploma mind you). I worked on a lot of stuff that was broadcast on TNT, TBS, Cartoon Network, CNN, etceteras. I was offered a job for $70,000 a year before coming up to Boston. I loved my work then. It was good, and it was good enough to get a decent job, but I realized my work was only going to go so far on this path, and I really wanted to explore the idea of making art for art's sake instead of making art because my boss or client told me to.
Michael is a good kid, he has done some exceptional work. But has he really studied contemporary art? Does he know what influenced contemporary artists and why? Has he ever really had a tough critique with an artist that has been doing what he is doing now for about 30 years longer? Has he ever worked in a medium that doesn't involve a computer?
Even getting an education in liberal arts at a university will contibute positively. It's good to know how the world works and why. Don't ever discount that. If all you care about is just getting a job to make a living and you're happy with that, I guess that is your call. I do hope that something out there encourages you to 'take it further' though.
(this has been directed at anybody who thinks a formal education is worthless )
Of course you have to at least know how to draw