Eradicating polio and malaria will have a smaller impact than iPads and iPhones? Sorry, dude, I cannot fathom the logic.
For the record, the Gates Foundation is providing a lot of monetary support for the polio eradication program these days, for which everyone is suitably grateful, but he did not start it by any means. It was begun during the 1980s by Rotary International. The members of Rotary clubs around the world have donated hundreds of millions to the program and countless thousands of volunteer hours to immunization programs. They are the ones who are going to places like India, Pakistan and Nigeria and putting those drops into kids' mouths. Just so we know, these things don't happen just because one rich guy parachutes in a bunch of money.
I've been a student of this history for a long time, and I've never seen it documented anywhere. Speculated about yes, but not documented. What really made me scratch my head was the numbers you provided. If they bought $1m worth at $10 and sold at $17 then they made $700,000 on the deal, not $16m.
As for the Star vs. the Alto being the subject of the Xerox suit against Apple, I am going to look that up and see what I can find. I thought the Alto had to be the prime suspect because that's the computer the Apple team saw when they visited PARC in 1979, and the Mac project was already underway at Apple at that point. So I don't honestly know, but the argument for Apple "ripping off Xerox" is always made in the context of the 1979 visit to PARC.
In any event, you have to be careful about what you read on the 'net about this history. A lot of it is the repeating of hearsay.
Just a slight correction...
The Lisa project was underway at that point and the Lisa team was already working with a graphical user interface.
In any event, you have to be careful about what you read on the 'net about this history. A lot of it is the repeating of hearsay.
I couldn't agree more. But you're being presumptuous on two counts (a) the internet is the only resource and (b) if you don't know something, it is likely to be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss
I've been a student of this history for a long time, and I've never seen it documented anywhere. Speculated about yes, but not documented. What really made me scratch my head was the numbers you provided. If they bought $1m worth at $10 and sold at $17 then they made $700,000 on the deal, not $16m.
Good point. As an ardent student of Apple history, you would know about the stock split between the time of this transaction and the Apple IPO? Yup, indeed there was such a split accounting for the numbers I cited (and did not just "read from the 'net).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss
As for the Star vs. the Alto being the subject of the Xerox suit against Apple, I am going to look that up and see what I can find. I thought the Alto had to be the prime suspect because that's the computer the Apple team saw when they visited PARC in 1979, and the Mac project was already underway at Apple at that point. So I don't honestly know, but the argument for Apple "ripping off Xerox" is always made in the context of the 1979 visit to PARC.
I agree that is the usual context but I don't really concern myself with the usual context. To be honest, it is possible that the Alto was also mentioned in the suit. I simply don't recall one way or the other. But I do recall the Xerox lawyers referring to the Star. Here's a consideration if you strongly believe the Alto was the subject of Xerox's ire. Can a company sue another for copyright infringement of something that was not publicly released? I am not sure about that, one way or the other.
For the record, the Gates Foundation is providing a lot of monetary support for the polio eradication program these days, for which everyone is suitably grateful, but he did not start it by any means. It was begun during the 1980s by Rotary International. The members of Rotary clubs around the world have donated hundreds of millions to the program and countless thousands of volunteer hours to immunization programs. They are the ones who are going to places like India, Pakistan and Nigeria and putting those drops into kids' mouths. Just so we know, these things don't happen just because one rich guy parachutes in a bunch of money.
For the record, I did not say BMGF started this effort or that it should take the only credit. Just so you know, I could point out that (a) the Rotary Club did not start the polio eradication movement and (b) their members are not the only ones visiting the afflicted regions of the world; however, I do not see the value of parsing another person's remarks if they are essentially rational and accurate on their own. But for the record, that's just me.
For the record, I did not say BMGF started this effort or that it should take the only credit. For the record, I could point out that (a) the Rotary Club did not start the polio eradication movement and (b) their members are not the only ones visiting the afflicted regions of the world; however, I do not see the value of parsing another person's remarks if they are essentially rational and accurate on their own. But for the record, that's just me.
For the record, you gave him credit for eradicating polio. Nobody else was mentioned.
Also for the record, the program the Gates Foundation is supporting is the Polio Plus program started by Rotary International in 1985. In fact the first monies the Gates Foundation provided towards this program was in the form of a challenge grant to Rotary International and was matched by a lot of not-rich people around the world.
I know that very few people outside of the area where this work is being done even know of Rotary International's role in polio eradication, but those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from. Gates knows this, which is why he is supporting Polio Plus. For the record.
Yes, but they were not the team that visited PARC.
Which team? The one with Atkinson? Atkinson was working on the Lisa and he went to PARC. Jobs was working on the Lisa (VP) and he went to PARC. Jobs didn't move over to the Macintosh team until much later.
[... and, no, Raskin didn't bring Atkinson into Apple to work on the Mac in 1979 as Hertzfeld said. Atkinson was already working on the Lisa in late '78 and actually introduced Raskin to Burrell who was working in another area of Apple.]
For the record, you gave him credit for eradicating polio. Nobody else was mentioned.
When polio is eradicated, Gates will deserve credit. It made sense to specifically mention Gates because the context here is Gates v. Jobs. If you want to reach far enough to extrapolate that to mean no one else deserves credit, then pat yourself on the back
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss
I know that very few people outside of the area where this work is being done even know of Rotary International's role in polio eradication, but those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from. Gates knows this, which is why he is supporting Polio Plus. For the record.
Let me help you just a bit:
"those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from - the Rotary Club amongst others". You do know who the others are, right? In neglecting to mention other organizations, you're committing the same sin you accuse me of. But since I never thought it was a sin, I forgive you, dude.
And for the record, the Rotary Club is NOT the frontline organization in polio eradication. You are somewhat misrepresenting the facts. But again, I don't take pleasure in parsing details when someone generally shows interest in facts (which you do), even if they are annoying in trying in vain to contradict me.
Which team? The one with Atkinson? Atkinson was working on the Lisa and he went to PARC. Jobs was working on the Lisa (VP) and he went to PARC. Jobs didn't move over to the Macintosh team until much later.
[... and, no, Raskin didn't bring Atkinson into Apple to work on the Mac in 1979 as Hertzfeld said. Atkinson was already working on the Lisa in late '78 and actually introduced Raskin to Burrell who was working in another area of Apple.]
I didn't suggest any Raskin connection to Atkinson. You are right it was a couple years later when Steve took over the Mac team from Raskin, in 1981. Before that he'd been an enemy of the Mac project if only because he was the leader of the Lisa project until he was relieved of that duty. Steve reportedly told Raskin that the Mac was "the stupidest idea he'd ever seen," or something along those lines.
As far as the PARC visit was concerned, Raskin's version of these events was that he arranged it as a way of getting Steve on his side. Raskin certainly had connections with PARC, having worked there at one time himself -- but some people say that his version of events is suspect. He did like to claim credit for things in an often untactful way, but that was just Jef Raskin from everything I've heard, and his grievance might have been totally legitimate. Seems pretty clear he was messed over badly by Steve.
I actually met Jef Raskin once, on the floor of MacWorld SF many years ago when I was a freelancing tech journalist. When I saw the name on the badge I practically jumped out of my shoes. I don't think anyone around knew who he was, but I did. So I spent some time talking with him. The first thing he said when I introduced myself I will never forget: "Welcome to my Expo!"
When polio is eradicated, Gates will deserve credit. It made sense to specifically mention Gates because the context here is Gates v. Jobs. If you want to reach far enough to extrapolate that to mean no one else deserves credit, then pat yourself on the back
Let me help you just a bit:
"those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from - the Rotary Club amongst others". You do know who the others are, right? In neglecting to mention other organizations, you're committing the same sin you accuse me of. But since I never thought it was a sin, I forgive you, dude.
And for the record, the Rotary Club is NOT the frontline organization in polio eradication. You are somewhat misrepresenting the facts. But again, I don't take pleasure in parsing details when someone generally shows interest in facts (which you do), even if they are annoying in trying in vain to contradict me.
You are trying to paper over your lack of knowledge of this topic with sarcasm. It is not working. I am completely done trying to educate you on it.
You are trying to paper over your lack of knowledge of this topic with sarcasm. It is not working. I am completely done trying to educate you on it.
Now there's the old reliable method of retreating with head up (but looking in another direction). Of course, you know damn well I'm right on all counts.
Vitriol is a bit strong? According to Isaacson, Steve never "let bygones be bygones". You're not suggesting the bio is wrong on this count too!?
Laurene Powell said the bio portrayed Steve's relationship with Gates inaccurately. So, no I'm not suggesting that, Ms. Powell is. If you think she is wrong, take it up with her. I for one, believe her story.
Such vitriol in this thread, over what happened 30 years ago. Why can't we let bygones be bygones, as Bill and Steve did?
And in 100 years we'll all be dead and little of this will matter at all to our descendants - as it really shouldn't matter that much to us right now.
I just enjoyed this report as a rather poignant anecdote about two old acquaintances and competitors, sharing the sure knowledge that one of them was nearing death's door. For another account of rivals whose relationship to each other grew at the end, read David McCullough's biography of John Adams and his correspondence with Thomas Jefferson.
The rampant cynicism on display here (sadly) tells me why most of us are what/where we are, and there aren't more people like SJ and BG.
Say what you will, but these are two human beings that, in their own flawed and beautiful ways, made great things happen to a lot of people.
We will look back 45 years from now -- say, around the 100th anniversary of the birth of these two giants -- and wonder how amazing it was that both of them walked the business landscape at the same time, how their paths were intertwined, and warts and all, left the world a significantly better place.
(Much as I dislike Microsoft) Go, BG!
I agree, as much as I love Apple, I respect Bill Gates for his innovation and drive. People take your Apple blindfold off and give Bill is respect. Actually Bill did the same thing to Apple, what Apple did to Xerox, improve on a technology that was already out in the public. What if Bill had not given Steve that loan those years ago as non-voting stock and decided to fight the lawsuits for IP infringement, I can say that HIGH probability, there would be NO APPLE today.
I respect Bill and think he given as much to world as Steve, with his previous and present life.
Steve Jobs inspired MILLIONS to make a difference.
Bill Gates is making a difference to MILLIONS.
I admire both of them, but I think in the long run (20+ years) Steve will have a bigger impact.
Depends on how you look at the world, approx. 2 Billion people may disagree, since there have no interest in technology, but just want a cure for TB, Malaria, better treatment for other topical diesases and HIV.
I didn't suggest any Raskin connection to Atkinson. You are right it was a couple years later when Steve took over the Mac team from Raskin, in 1981. Before that he'd been an enemy of the Mac project if only because he was the leader of the Lisa project until he was relieved of that duty. Steve reportedly told Raskin that the Mac was "the stupidest idea he'd ever seen," or something along those lines.
Whoops! Sorry. I meant to actually acknowledge that you hadn't brought Raskin into the conversation. That was meant for anyone else that happened to read Andy Hertzfeld's account of how Bill Atkinson came to Apple and I just wanted to stop it there.
My account comes from an interview with Atkinson and Hertzfeld by Grady Booch for the Computer History Museum in 2004. I figure that if you had both of them in the room at the same time corroborating and correcting each other then the info must be fairly solid.
In fact, Gates said he received a phone call from Jobs's wife, Laurene Powell Jobs, about negative comments her husband had made to biographer Walter Isaacson, in which he called Gates a "basically unimaginative person who "has never invented anything." Gates said Jobs's wife told him that Isaacson's book didn't "paint a picture of the mutual respect" the two had for one another.
Comments
Eradicating polio and malaria will have a smaller impact than iPads and iPhones? Sorry, dude, I cannot fathom the logic.
For the record, the Gates Foundation is providing a lot of monetary support for the polio eradication program these days, for which everyone is suitably grateful, but he did not start it by any means. It was begun during the 1980s by Rotary International. The members of Rotary clubs around the world have donated hundreds of millions to the program and countless thousands of volunteer hours to immunization programs. They are the ones who are going to places like India, Pakistan and Nigeria and putting those drops into kids' mouths. Just so we know, these things don't happen just because one rich guy parachutes in a bunch of money.
I've been a student of this history for a long time, and I've never seen it documented anywhere. Speculated about yes, but not documented. What really made me scratch my head was the numbers you provided. If they bought $1m worth at $10 and sold at $17 then they made $700,000 on the deal, not $16m.
As for the Star vs. the Alto being the subject of the Xerox suit against Apple, I am going to look that up and see what I can find. I thought the Alto had to be the prime suspect because that's the computer the Apple team saw when they visited PARC in 1979, and the Mac project was already underway at Apple at that point. So I don't honestly know, but the argument for Apple "ripping off Xerox" is always made in the context of the 1979 visit to PARC.
In any event, you have to be careful about what you read on the 'net about this history. A lot of it is the repeating of hearsay.
Just a slight correction...
The Lisa project was underway at that point and the Lisa team was already working with a graphical user interface.
In any event, you have to be careful about what you read on the 'net about this history. A lot of it is the repeating of hearsay.
I couldn't agree more. But you're being presumptuous on two counts (a) the internet is the only resource and (b) if you don't know something, it is likely to be wrong.
I've been a student of this history for a long time, and I've never seen it documented anywhere. Speculated about yes, but not documented. What really made me scratch my head was the numbers you provided. If they bought $1m worth at $10 and sold at $17 then they made $700,000 on the deal, not $16m.
Good point. As an ardent student of Apple history, you would know about the stock split between the time of this transaction and the Apple IPO?
As for the Star vs. the Alto being the subject of the Xerox suit against Apple, I am going to look that up and see what I can find. I thought the Alto had to be the prime suspect because that's the computer the Apple team saw when they visited PARC in 1979, and the Mac project was already underway at Apple at that point. So I don't honestly know, but the argument for Apple "ripping off Xerox" is always made in the context of the 1979 visit to PARC.
I agree that is the usual context but I don't really concern myself with the usual context. To be honest, it is possible that the Alto was also mentioned in the suit. I simply don't recall one way or the other. But I do recall the Xerox lawyers referring to the Star. Here's a consideration if you strongly believe the Alto was the subject of Xerox's ire. Can a company sue another for copyright infringement of something that was not publicly released? I am not sure about that, one way or the other.
For the record, the Gates Foundation is providing a lot of monetary support for the polio eradication program these days, for which everyone is suitably grateful, but he did not start it by any means. It was begun during the 1980s by Rotary International. The members of Rotary clubs around the world have donated hundreds of millions to the program and countless thousands of volunteer hours to immunization programs. They are the ones who are going to places like India, Pakistan and Nigeria and putting those drops into kids' mouths. Just so we know, these things don't happen just because one rich guy parachutes in a bunch of money.
For the record, I did not say BMGF started this effort or that it should take the only credit. Just so you know, I could point out that (a) the Rotary Club did not start the polio eradication movement and (b) their members are not the only ones visiting the afflicted regions of the world; however, I do not see the value of parsing another person's remarks if they are essentially rational and accurate on their own. But for the record, that's just me.
Just a slight correction...
The Lisa project was underway at that point and the Lisa team was already working with a graphical user interface.
Yes, but they were not the team that visited PARC.
For the record, I did not say BMGF started this effort or that it should take the only credit. For the record, I could point out that (a) the Rotary Club did not start the polio eradication movement and (b) their members are not the only ones visiting the afflicted regions of the world; however, I do not see the value of parsing another person's remarks if they are essentially rational and accurate on their own. But for the record, that's just me.
For the record, you gave him credit for eradicating polio. Nobody else was mentioned.
Also for the record, the program the Gates Foundation is supporting is the Polio Plus program started by Rotary International in 1985. In fact the first monies the Gates Foundation provided towards this program was in the form of a challenge grant to Rotary International and was matched by a lot of not-rich people around the world.
I know that very few people outside of the area where this work is being done even know of Rotary International's role in polio eradication, but those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from. Gates knows this, which is why he is supporting Polio Plus. For the record.
Yes, but they were not the team that visited PARC.
Which team? The one with Atkinson? Atkinson was working on the Lisa and he went to PARC. Jobs was working on the Lisa (VP) and he went to PARC. Jobs didn't move over to the Macintosh team until much later.
[... and, no, Raskin didn't bring Atkinson into Apple to work on the Mac in 1979 as Hertzfeld said. Atkinson was already working on the Lisa in late '78 and actually introduced Raskin to Burrell who was working in another area of Apple.]
For the record, you gave him credit for eradicating polio. Nobody else was mentioned.
When polio is eradicated, Gates will deserve credit. It made sense to specifically mention Gates because the context here is Gates v. Jobs. If you want to reach far enough to extrapolate that to mean no one else deserves credit, then pat yourself on the back
I know that very few people outside of the area where this work is being done even know of Rotary International's role in polio eradication, but those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from. Gates knows this, which is why he is supporting Polio Plus. For the record.
Let me help you just a bit:
"those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from - the Rotary Club amongst others". You do know who the others are, right?
And for the record, the Rotary Club is NOT the frontline organization in polio eradication. You are somewhat misrepresenting the facts. But again, I don't take pleasure in parsing details when someone generally shows interest in facts (which you do), even if they are annoying in trying in vain to contradict me.
Such vitriol in this thread, over what happened 30 years ago. Why can't we let bygones be bygones, as Bill and Steve did?
Vitriol is a bit strong? According to Isaacson, Steve never "let bygones be bygones". You're not suggesting the bio is wrong on this count too!?
Which team? The one with Atkinson? Atkinson was working on the Lisa and he went to PARC. Jobs was working on the Lisa (VP) and he went to PARC. Jobs didn't move over to the Macintosh team until much later.
[... and, no, Raskin didn't bring Atkinson into Apple to work on the Mac in 1979 as Hertzfeld said. Atkinson was already working on the Lisa in late '78 and actually introduced Raskin to Burrell who was working in another area of Apple.]
I didn't suggest any Raskin connection to Atkinson. You are right it was a couple years later when Steve took over the Mac team from Raskin, in 1981. Before that he'd been an enemy of the Mac project if only because he was the leader of the Lisa project until he was relieved of that duty. Steve reportedly told Raskin that the Mac was "the stupidest idea he'd ever seen," or something along those lines.
As far as the PARC visit was concerned, Raskin's version of these events was that he arranged it as a way of getting Steve on his side. Raskin certainly had connections with PARC, having worked there at one time himself -- but some people say that his version of events is suspect. He did like to claim credit for things in an often untactful way, but that was just Jef Raskin from everything I've heard, and his grievance might have been totally legitimate. Seems pretty clear he was messed over badly by Steve.
I actually met Jef Raskin once, on the floor of MacWorld SF many years ago when I was a freelancing tech journalist. When I saw the name on the badge I practically jumped out of my shoes. I don't think anyone around knew who he was, but I did. So I spent some time talking with him. The first thing he said when I introduced myself I will never forget: "Welcome to my Expo!"
That was pure Jef Raskin.
When polio is eradicated, Gates will deserve credit. It made sense to specifically mention Gates because the context here is Gates v. Jobs. If you want to reach far enough to extrapolate that to mean no one else deserves credit, then pat yourself on the back
Let me help you just a bit:
"those who do know understand that this is where the leadership has come from - the Rotary Club amongst others". You do know who the others are, right?
And for the record, the Rotary Club is NOT the frontline organization in polio eradication. You are somewhat misrepresenting the facts. But again, I don't take pleasure in parsing details when someone generally shows interest in facts (which you do), even if they are annoying in trying in vain to contradict me.
You are trying to paper over your lack of knowledge of this topic with sarcasm. It is not working. I am completely done trying to educate you on it.
You are trying to paper over your lack of knowledge of this topic with sarcasm. It is not working. I am completely done trying to educate you on it.
Now there's the old reliable method of retreating with head up (but looking in another direction).
Vitriol is a bit strong? According to Isaacson, Steve never "let bygones be bygones". You're not suggesting the bio is wrong on this count too!?
Laurene Powell said the bio portrayed Steve's relationship with Gates inaccurately. So, no I'm not suggesting that, Ms. Powell is. If you think she is wrong, take it up with her. I for one, believe her story.
Such vitriol in this thread, over what happened 30 years ago. Why can't we let bygones be bygones, as Bill and Steve did?
And in 100 years we'll all be dead and little of this will matter at all to our descendants - as it really shouldn't matter that much to us right now.
I just enjoyed this report as a rather poignant anecdote about two old acquaintances and competitors, sharing the sure knowledge that one of them was nearing death's door. For another account of rivals whose relationship to each other grew at the end, read David McCullough's biography of John Adams and his correspondence with Thomas Jefferson.
The rampant cynicism on display here (sadly) tells me why most of us are what/where we are, and there aren't more people like SJ and BG.
Say what you will, but these are two human beings that, in their own flawed and beautiful ways, made great things happen to a lot of people.
We will look back 45 years from now -- say, around the 100th anniversary of the birth of these two giants -- and wonder how amazing it was that both of them walked the business landscape at the same time, how their paths were intertwined, and warts and all, left the world a significantly better place.
(Much as I dislike Microsoft) Go, BG!
I agree, as much as I love Apple, I respect Bill Gates for his innovation and drive. People take your Apple blindfold off and give Bill is respect. Actually Bill did the same thing to Apple, what Apple did to Xerox, improve on a technology that was already out in the public. What if Bill had not given Steve that loan those years ago as non-voting stock and decided to fight the lawsuits for IP infringement, I can say that HIGH probability, there would be NO APPLE today.
I respect Bill and think he given as much to world as Steve, with his previous and present life.
Steve Jobs inspired MILLIONS to make a difference.
Bill Gates is making a difference to MILLIONS.
I admire both of them, but I think in the long run (20+ years) Steve will have a bigger impact.
Depends on how you look at the world, approx. 2 Billion people may disagree, since there have no interest in technology, but just want a cure for TB, Malaria, better treatment for other topical diesases and HIV.
Vitriol is a bit strong? According to Isaacson, Steve never "let bygones be bygones". You're not suggesting the bio is wrong on this count too!?
Please use some common sense, since Mrs Jobs and stated that this was inaccurate and remember Steve did not have final review on his bio.
I didn't suggest any Raskin connection to Atkinson. You are right it was a couple years later when Steve took over the Mac team from Raskin, in 1981. Before that he'd been an enemy of the Mac project if only because he was the leader of the Lisa project until he was relieved of that duty. Steve reportedly told Raskin that the Mac was "the stupidest idea he'd ever seen," or something along those lines.
Whoops! Sorry. I meant to actually acknowledge that you hadn't brought Raskin into the conversation. That was meant for anyone else that happened to read Andy Hertzfeld's account of how Bill Atkinson came to Apple and I just wanted to stop it there.
My account comes from an interview with Atkinson and Hertzfeld by Grady Booch for the Computer History Museum in 2004. I figure that if you had both of them in the room at the same time corroborating and correcting each other then the info must be fairly solid.
In fact, Gates said he received a phone call from Jobs's wife, Laurene Powell Jobs, about negative comments her husband had made to biographer Walter Isaacson, in which he called Gates a "basically unimaginative person who "has never invented anything." Gates said Jobs's wife told him that Isaacson's book didn't "paint a picture of the mutual respect" the two had for one another.
I don't believe a word of this.