I think you're missing some details on the 13" Pro: the leaks to date suggest that it is not the same form-factor as the current lineup. While the resolution is unchanged, and it still has a DVD drive, the dimensions are notably smaller than the current 13" Pro, suggesting a nearly edge to edge screen display along with a case that's smaller in every dimension.
I think they are just keeping the PRO for those who still need a Optical drive. They can't switch completely away from that yet. They won't expect to sell many of the PRO models but they are beefing them up to the same performance level for those that still need that Optical drive. This new model is the replacement for the PRO but they need to keep an Optical drive model around for a while.
This new model will be more powerful than the Airs so they won't combine those two models.
If the Macbook has the same performance as the "Pro", for all of the 5 times a year I use an optical drive, I'd be happier to buy an external one and use it on those occassions, leaving me with a more compact laptop for travel.
"word processing, spreadsheets, slide presentations, email" aren't more demanding than browsing the web you can do it on a really old notebook too.
Using anything what requires more performance would be a problem with integrated gpu on 2560x1600 resolution.
I agree completely with this sentiment, and that of other posters who have pointed out that Ivy Bridge + HD4000 + Retina Display will not cut ice.
Now looking at what might be happening next week, it would seem Apple wishes to have its cake and eat it as far as the Macbook range goes - be this Pro or Air -and I can quite understand this.
As it stands, many users, myself included - are opposed to losing the optical drive, ability to upgrade RAM and I/O ports, specifically FW800 for a slimmer, lighter form factor with longer battery life - however, Apple is making its intent known that the full blown MBA's best days are behind it, and like it or not, Apple wishes to transition users to the cloud and drop I/O ports apart from TB by the seems of it.
FWIW, within 18 months Apple will make the transition to its smaller, thinner form factor and drop much of the kit I personally like - they will concentrate on the mobility and battery life side of the equation, particularly in relation to Retina displays.
To summarise, its my opinion Apple is in a transitionary mode and trying to move its users towards the cloud and wifi reliant forms of transferring data, if it made this leap in one go, it would alienate a fair number of its user-base, so we have a softly softly approach in line with the CEO's and Schillers thinking - Perhaps more importantly though, this year is a test bed and early adopters of the Retina displays will be Guinea Pig's testing out a new platform that with the delivery of Intel's Haswell technology next year will come into its own.
My advice, get the end of the line Pro models when you can and purchase AppleCare, they will not be available by the end of 2013, by which time Haswell will have been adopted and as many have stated, don't go near a Air with IB and HD4000, wait until Haswell which really can drive a Retina display.
I hope they adopt a conservative approach to revising the iMac as well.
That makes no sense. The MacBook was an entry level notebook that had just above adequate specs. This one is better than the MacBook Pro. And they're the same price? It doesn't make any sense. It would kill MacBook Pro sales.
I've owned dozens of notebooks including a 2007 15' MBP but my 2011 13" Macbook Air is the first laptop I've ever used. Completely different form factor and a perfect adjunct to my iMac 27" i7. No iPad envy either! 15" big hit for Apple.
Ok, so Apple is going to keep the MacBook Pro and rename the MacBook Air to just MacBook. Then next year they drop the Pro and just have one MacBook line. What's so hard to understand about that?
There's no way they are going to stop making something approximately as thin as the Air, but something as thin as the Air can't accomodate enough power to satisfy all their customers. That's a minimum of two MacBooks, and there's no way around it.
I don't understand - adding touch screen is a risky move? Why?
Didn't say it was in itself. Was saying that if the formfactor was risky. Just adding touch isn't what I would consider a risk. Removing the trackpad and relying touch might be. One other radical change would be systems based on ARM. I really don't think Apple will just add models for the hell of it. Either they will be a really different class of device or they will take on the risk for things like no optical drive.
I agree completely with this sentiment, and that of other posters who have pointed out that Ivy Bridge + HD4000 + Retina Display will not cut ice.
Based on what? The MBA is already a huge seller for Apple and Ivy Bridge + HD4000 would be a big step up.
In addition, many, many Pro users would be fine with it - I know I would.
So what's your evidence that it won't cut the ice?
Granted, there is a small subset of laptop users who needs discrete graphics, but since no one is suggesting that Apple will eliminate discrete graphics, that's not an issue. It will remain available.
So why won't Ivy Bridge and HD4000 work? How about some facts (or at least plausible argument) to back up your position. You can start by showing us the number of people who use their laptops for anything which requires more power than the HD4000 can provide.
I agree completely with this sentiment, and that of other posters who have pointed out that Ivy Bridge + HD4000 + Retina Display will not cut ice.
Based on what? The MBA is already a huge seller for Apple and Ivy Bridge + HD4000 would be a big step up.
In addition, many, many Pro users would be fine with it - I know I would.
So what's your evidence that it won't cut the ice?
Granted, there is a small subset of laptop users who needs discrete graphics, but since no one is suggesting that Apple will eliminate discrete graphics, that's not an issue. It will remain available.
So why won't Ivy Bridge and HD4000 work? How about some facts (or at least plausible argument) to back up your position. You can start by showing us the number of people who use their laptops for anything which requires more power than the HD4000 can provide.
The HD4000, while a "big step up", is still a fair bit less than twice as fast as the HD3000 in real world tests. If we're being generous we can go with Intel's 2x benchmarks. Fine. The Retina display doubles the pixel dimensions of the screen, quadrupling the number of pixel. So that's half the graphics power per pixel of the previous generation laptop. I think that's fair to call not cutting ice.
Based on what? The MBA is already a huge seller for Apple and Ivy Bridge + HD4000 would be a big step up.
In addition, many, many Pro users would be fine with it - I know I would.
So what's your evidence that it won't cut the ice?
Granted, there is a small subset of laptop users who needs discrete graphics, but since no one is suggesting that Apple will eliminate discrete graphics, that's not an issue. It will remain available.
So why won't Ivy Bridge and HD4000 work? How about some facts (or at least plausible argument) to back up your position. You can start by showing us the number of people who use their laptops for anything which requires more power than the HD4000 can provide.
Games?
Intel 3770K CPU with HD 4000 GPU can hardly handle World of Warcraft on 1920x1200 resolution screen with 25fps on lowest settings at a place what deserted and made 5 years ago. We talk about a desktop CPU what is more powerful than mobile versions. And to be honest we know WOW isn't that demanding game. Just imagine what fps can we get if we use it on 2560x1800.
I just hope Apple (Tim) keeps in mind that the second coming of Steve was about new innovation and simplification of the product line. The last thing Apple should do is have too many products. IMHO they won't make that mistake.
I wish to ditch the optical drive but keep the ethernet port. Configuring routers and such requires it, and I don't want to carry an accessory cable to USB. Other than that, keep it fast, discreet graphics and hopefully 2 drives!
I wish to ditch the optical drive but keep the ethernet port. Configuring routers and such requires it, and I don't want to carry an accessory cable to USB. Other than that, keep it fast, discreet graphics and hopefully 2 drives!
At the rumoured 0.74" that seems feasible. The way I see it ethernet is essential in much the same way that video out is essential. A large majority don't use them (ever) but it would kill a very large number of buyers because there is no suitable replacement for those that can use it. Sure, you can use an ethernet dongle over USB but you can do the same thin with video out, too. One big difference is that ethernet over USB isn't as secure as a built-in ethernet port where a company might require the MAC address for a particular switch port or VLAN on their network.
I don't care about the 2 drives so long as there is an SSD card (like in the MBA) and a 2.5" HDD/SSD space, or a hybrid SSD/HDD drive. That said, those leaked spec sheets don't make it look promising.
Yes I did, and I also didn't own one until it came with the black bezel. $1700 is not an unsubstantial purchase. If I don't care for the looks of it, I won't buy it. The black bezel helps it blend into the background better, making the transition more appealing and the screen seem larger. The metal bezel looks large in comparison, and my personal opinion (which I believe I am entitled to) is that it looks like crap.
That it flows more smoothly, that makes sense. However, the bezel is at least twice as wide when they switched to black. The suggestion that it makes the screen seem larger doesn't make sense, that illusion should go away when the screen is on.
At the rumoured 0.74" that seems feasible. The way I see it ethernet is essential in much the same way that video out is essential. A large majority don't use them (ever) but it would kill a very large number of buyers because there is no suitable replacement for those that can use it. Sure, you can use an ethernet dongle over USB but you can do the same thin with video out, too. One big difference is that ethernet over USB isn't as secure as a built-in ethernet port where a company might require the MAC address for a particular switch port or VLAN on their network.
Do you know why is Ethernet over USB isn't considered as secure? MAC addresses are mutable, even if the chip is hard wired into a computer board.
I don't care about the 2 drives so long as there is an SSD card (like in the MBA) and a 2.5" HDD/SSD space, or a hybrid SSD/HDD drive. That said, those leaked spec sheets don't make it look promising.
The combination of a narrow drive card and a 2.5" drive sounds interesting. I don't know about a hybrid drive, I've not seen a review that said it was worth it, or that it even increased performance - but it's been a bit since I looked at them last.
Maybe they should keep the 17" as the only Pro model and "really" make it Pro with all the bells and whistles.
I have the 15" MBP and I like having the optical drive, the ethernet plug, and the assorted I/O capabilities, but I rarely use them. I do however think a powerful CPU/GPU is important for graphics work when on the road. Ideally that sort of work is done on a desktop machine but occasionally I have to whip something together while on the road. Smoothly running Adobe CS is a must for me. Other than that, a notebook is a secondary device for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
This won't work because only a small percentage of Pro users want the 17" laptops.
It makes more sense to do what they are actually doing here which is get rid of the part of the Pro line that doesn't sell as well, and focus on keeping around the 13" and 15" until such time as people are moving to the new line in larger numbers.
I'm not privy to 17" MBP sales figures of course, but I saw one in a coffee shop the other day and thought it would make a fine day tripper for times I need to do real work around the area and don't have access to a bigger monitor (I hate using Photoshop on a small screen compared to one at least 20"). And the best way to juice up its appeal a bit - if kept around - would be, among other things, to put it on a diet and ditch the ODD in the process so that the 17 weighs no more than today's 15 incher - with real CPU and video processing power. Even if you can't really use it in a coach airplane seat. But I'm not predicting such a model - odds seem maybe 30-70 from the tea leaves on sites like this one.
****************
Switching up topics, here's how much the ODD is now superannuated: Need to pull some files physically? Plug in a 32 GB flash drive. Need to share some big files and not leave a device with some cost with a friend, relative or colleague? Put 'em Drop Box, SugarSync, etc. (or iCloud?) and send download links - or use a service like YouSendIt. No shiny coaster required, files shared.
And if they need to burn a CD for their old stereo or a DVD for their VCR's, the recipients probably already have ODD's.
All of these will deliver the content to those who previously got it on ODD's - a technology whose time has simply passed except for legacy uses. And at worst, you can pick up a light-weight external ODD for less than forty bucks.
(Which is why I'll be surprised to see any 2012 Macs - a year Tim Cook has promised a remaking of Apple's entire product line in - coming with one. At least in notebooks.)
****************
Also, I question the whole line-up presented here. First, no slimming of the MBP's? Really?
And second, "Retina" displays give you more sharpness with pixel doubling - but not more real estate (as I understand it at least) - and it's hard for me to see a 15" pro which won't really be any more "canvas" than 1440 x 900 ("reitinized" to 2880 x 1800) - and therefore not (¿)1080p capable (?) like many 15" Win machines which will display 1920 x 1280 of today's pixels - whatever their screen "quality," tho' I admit the math around the new gen of "resolutions" and "doubling" and "independence" still confuses me a bit.
Intel 3770K CPU with HD 4000 GPU can hardly handle World of Warcraft on 1920x1200 resolution screen with 25fps on lowest settings at a place what deserted and made 5 years ago. We talk about a desktop CPU what is more powerful than mobile versions. And to be honest we know WOW isn't that demanding game. Just imagine what fps can we get if we use it on 2560x1800. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnYpLZGOMQc
OK, now tell us how many MacBook Pro users play World of Warcraft. Darn few, I'd venture.
You don't seem to understand - people who buy Macs are generally not looking for the latest, greatest gaming experience.
So, in the end, you don't really have anything to back up your claims.
The HD4000, while a "big step up", is still a fair bit less than twice as fast as the HD3000 in real world tests. If we're being generous we can go with Intel's 2x benchmarks. Fine. The Retina display doubles the pixel dimensions of the screen, quadrupling the number of pixel. So that's half the graphics power per pixel of the previous generation laptop. I think that's fair to call not cutting ice.
IOW, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim.
Comments
I think you're missing some details on the 13" Pro: the leaks to date suggest that it is not the same form-factor as the current lineup. While the resolution is unchanged, and it still has a DVD drive, the dimensions are notably smaller than the current 13" Pro, suggesting a nearly edge to edge screen display along with a case that's smaller in every dimension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GS Turn
I think they are just keeping the PRO for those who still need a Optical drive. They can't switch completely away from that yet. They won't expect to sell many of the PRO models but they are beefing them up to the same performance level for those that still need that Optical drive. This new model is the replacement for the PRO but they need to keep an Optical drive model around for a while.
This new model will be more powerful than the Airs so they won't combine those two models.
If the Macbook has the same performance as the "Pro", for all of the 5 times a year I use an optical drive, I'd be happier to buy an external one and use it on those occassions, leaving me with a more compact laptop for travel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by landilevente
"word processing, spreadsheets, slide presentations, email" aren't more demanding than browsing the web you can do it on a really old notebook too.
Using anything what requires more performance would be a problem with integrated gpu on 2560x1600 resolution.
I agree completely with this sentiment, and that of other posters who have pointed out that Ivy Bridge + HD4000 + Retina Display will not cut ice.
Now looking at what might be happening next week, it would seem Apple wishes to have its cake and eat it as far as the Macbook range goes - be this Pro or Air -and I can quite understand this.
As it stands, many users, myself included - are opposed to losing the optical drive, ability to upgrade RAM and I/O ports, specifically FW800 for a slimmer, lighter form factor with longer battery life - however, Apple is making its intent known that the full blown MBA's best days are behind it, and like it or not, Apple wishes to transition users to the cloud and drop I/O ports apart from TB by the seems of it.
FWIW, within 18 months Apple will make the transition to its smaller, thinner form factor and drop much of the kit I personally like - they will concentrate on the mobility and battery life side of the equation, particularly in relation to Retina displays.
To summarise, its my opinion Apple is in a transitionary mode and trying to move its users towards the cloud and wifi reliant forms of transferring data, if it made this leap in one go, it would alienate a fair number of its user-base, so we have a softly softly approach in line with the CEO's and Schillers thinking - Perhaps more importantly though, this year is a test bed and early adopters of the Retina displays will be Guinea Pig's testing out a new platform that with the delivery of Intel's Haswell technology next year will come into its own.
My advice, get the end of the line Pro models when you can and purchase AppleCare, they will not be available by the end of 2013, by which time Haswell will have been adopted and as many have stated, don't go near a Air with IB and HD4000, wait until Haswell which really can drive a Retina display.
I hope they adopt a conservative approach to revising the iMac as well.
I've owned dozens of notebooks including a 2007 15' MBP but my 2011 13" Macbook Air is the first laptop I've ever used. Completely different form factor and a perfect adjunct to my iMac 27" i7. No iPad envy either! 15" big hit for Apple.
There's no way they are going to stop making something approximately as thin as the Air, but something as thin as the Air can't accomodate enough power to satisfy all their customers. That's a minimum of two MacBooks, and there's no way around it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwindmann
Would you purchase a $32,999.999 metalflake purple car with 2" wheels? Nah, you probably wouldn't like that.
How is this in any way a valid response?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Why would the 13" AND the 15" have 2560x1600?
And I only ask that because the 15" sticker we saw said that and not 2880x1800.
Hopefully because the sticker is fake. Otherwise we will get 1280x800 effective screen real estate on a 15" screen.
Didn't say it was in itself. Was saying that if the formfactor was risky. Just adding touch isn't what I would consider a risk. Removing the trackpad and relying touch might be. One other radical change would be systems based on ARM. I really don't think Apple will just add models for the hell of it. Either they will be a really different class of device or they will take on the risk for things like no optical drive.
Based on what? The MBA is already a huge seller for Apple and Ivy Bridge + HD4000 would be a big step up.
In addition, many, many Pro users would be fine with it - I know I would.
So what's your evidence that it won't cut the ice?
Granted, there is a small subset of laptop users who needs discrete graphics, but since no one is suggesting that Apple will eliminate discrete graphics, that's not an issue. It will remain available.
So why won't Ivy Bridge and HD4000 work? How about some facts (or at least plausible argument) to back up your position. You can start by showing us the number of people who use their laptops for anything which requires more power than the HD4000 can provide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26Chrisr
I agree completely with this sentiment, and that of other posters who have pointed out that Ivy Bridge + HD4000 + Retina Display will not cut ice.
Based on what? The MBA is already a huge seller for Apple and Ivy Bridge + HD4000 would be a big step up.
In addition, many, many Pro users would be fine with it - I know I would.
So what's your evidence that it won't cut the ice?
Granted, there is a small subset of laptop users who needs discrete graphics, but since no one is suggesting that Apple will eliminate discrete graphics, that's not an issue. It will remain available.
So why won't Ivy Bridge and HD4000 work? How about some facts (or at least plausible argument) to back up your position. You can start by showing us the number of people who use their laptops for anything which requires more power than the HD4000 can provide.
The HD4000, while a "big step up", is still a fair bit less than twice as fast as the HD3000 in real world tests. If we're being generous we can go with Intel's 2x benchmarks. Fine. The Retina display doubles the pixel dimensions of the screen, quadrupling the number of pixel. So that's half the graphics power per pixel of the previous generation laptop. I think that's fair to call not cutting ice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Based on what? The MBA is already a huge seller for Apple and Ivy Bridge + HD4000 would be a big step up.
In addition, many, many Pro users would be fine with it - I know I would.
So what's your evidence that it won't cut the ice?
Granted, there is a small subset of laptop users who needs discrete graphics, but since no one is suggesting that Apple will eliminate discrete graphics, that's not an issue. It will remain available.
So why won't Ivy Bridge and HD4000 work? How about some facts (or at least plausible argument) to back up your position. You can start by showing us the number of people who use their laptops for anything which requires more power than the HD4000 can provide.
Games?
Intel 3770K CPU with HD 4000 GPU can hardly handle World of Warcraft on 1920x1200 resolution screen with 25fps on lowest settings at a place what deserted and made 5 years ago. We talk about a desktop CPU what is more powerful than mobile versions. And to be honest we know WOW isn't that demanding game. Just imagine what fps can we get if we use it on 2560x1800.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnYpLZGOMQc
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I just hope Apple (Tim) keeps in mind that the second coming of Steve was about new innovation and simplification of the product line. The last thing Apple should do is have too many products. IMHO they won't make that mistake.
You mean like they did in the 90s?
Quote:
Originally Posted by landilevente
Games?
If gaming sold computers Apple would be there.
Gaming is done on phones, tablets, and consoles.
Gaming on computers is a niche market so there really isn't a point for Apple to invest in that area.
I wish to ditch the optical drive but keep the ethernet port. Configuring routers and such requires it, and I don't want to carry an accessory cable to USB. Other than that, keep it fast, discreet graphics and hopefully 2 drives!
At the rumoured 0.74" that seems feasible. The way I see it ethernet is essential in much the same way that video out is essential. A large majority don't use them (ever) but it would kill a very large number of buyers because there is no suitable replacement for those that can use it. Sure, you can use an ethernet dongle over USB but you can do the same thin with video out, too. One big difference is that ethernet over USB isn't as secure as a built-in ethernet port where a company might require the MAC address for a particular switch port or VLAN on their network.
I don't care about the 2 drives so long as there is an SSD card (like in the MBA) and a 2.5" HDD/SSD space, or a hybrid SSD/HDD drive. That said, those leaked spec sheets don't make it look promising.
That it flows more smoothly, that makes sense. However, the bezel is at least twice as wide when they switched to black. The suggestion that it makes the screen seem larger doesn't make sense, that illusion should go away when the screen is on.
Do you know why is Ethernet over USB isn't considered as secure? MAC addresses are mutable, even if the chip is hard wired into a computer board.
The combination of a narrow drive card and a 2.5" drive sounds interesting. I don't know about a hybrid drive, I've not seen a review that said it was worth it, or that it even increased performance - but it's been a bit since I looked at them last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Maybe they should keep the 17" as the only Pro model and "really" make it Pro with all the bells and whistles.
I have the 15" MBP and I like having the optical drive, the ethernet plug, and the assorted I/O capabilities, but I rarely use them. I do however think a powerful CPU/GPU is important for graphics work when on the road. Ideally that sort of work is done on a desktop machine but occasionally I have to whip something together while on the road. Smoothly running Adobe CS is a must for me. Other than that, a notebook is a secondary device for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
This won't work because only a small percentage of Pro users want the 17" laptops.
It makes more sense to do what they are actually doing here which is get rid of the part of the Pro line that doesn't sell as well, and focus on keeping around the 13" and 15" until such time as people are moving to the new line in larger numbers.
I'm not privy to 17" MBP sales figures of course, but I saw one in a coffee shop the other day and thought it would make a fine day tripper for times I need to do real work around the area and don't have access to a bigger monitor (I hate using Photoshop on a small screen compared to one at least 20"). And the best way to juice up its appeal a bit - if kept around - would be, among other things, to put it on a diet and ditch the ODD in the process so that the 17 weighs no more than today's 15 incher - with real CPU and video processing power. Even if you can't really use it in a coach airplane seat. But I'm not predicting such a model - odds seem maybe 30-70 from the tea leaves on sites like this one.
****************
Switching up topics, here's how much the ODD is now superannuated: Need to pull some files physically? Plug in a 32 GB flash drive. Need to share some big files and not leave a device with some cost with a friend, relative or colleague? Put 'em Drop Box, SugarSync, etc. (or iCloud?) and send download links - or use a service like YouSendIt. No shiny coaster required, files shared.
And if they need to burn a CD for their old stereo or a DVD for their VCR's, the recipients probably already have ODD's.
All of these will deliver the content to those who previously got it on ODD's - a technology whose time has simply passed except for legacy uses. And at worst, you can pick up a light-weight external ODD for less than forty bucks.
(Which is why I'll be surprised to see any 2012 Macs - a year Tim Cook has promised a remaking of Apple's entire product line in - coming with one. At least in notebooks.)
****************
Also, I question the whole line-up presented here. First, no slimming of the MBP's? Really?
And second, "Retina" displays give you more sharpness with pixel doubling - but not more real estate (as I understand it at least) - and it's hard for me to see a 15" pro which won't really be any more "canvas" than 1440 x 900 ("reitinized" to 2880 x 1800) - and therefore not (¿)1080p capable (?) like many 15" Win machines which will display 1920 x 1280 of today's pixels - whatever their screen "quality," tho' I admit the math around the new gen of "resolutions" and "doubling" and "independence" still confuses me a bit.
OK, now tell us how many MacBook Pro users play World of Warcraft. Darn few, I'd venture.
You don't seem to understand - people who buy Macs are generally not looking for the latest, greatest gaming experience.
So, in the end, you don't really have anything to back up your claims.
IOW, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim.