Ahh... I should have been clearer. I did not mean identical code -- rather a shared, common code-base for the iOS, OS X (and possibly server version) of the same (or complimentary apps).
Rignt now in iOS, you can include common code, then unique iPad and unique iPhone code in the same source code-base. Then you simple compile and link [package] for the desired targets.
I would add [at least] two capabilities:
-- allow for the inclusion of OS X source and iOS source in the common code-base.
-- defer the packaging (at least the linking) to downloaad/install and/or execution time.
As to selling Macs to grandma or the youngsters' parents... Likely, for the next 3-5 years there will be a periodic need for a Truck -- to hold your media, to backup and sync, to act as an in intermediary between your iPad and the cloud.
You might think of this as a home server. Today, this would likely, be a Mac Mini with some external HDD and, possibly, the iPad as the display for the headless Mini. In all likelihood, though, Apple could combine storage, AirPort Extreme, TimeMachine into an AppleTV-like box that provides the necessary support functions.
When the cost/speed of bandwidth and storage advance to the proper levels, these "Mac" functions could be handled by the cloud.
I do support the notion of Universal apps that include code for OSX, iOS (iPhone) and iOS (iPad), with a smart function that installs the correct version on each device. If purchased on the iPad, for instance, the correct version would be installed on your iPhone and iMac, for instance. However, the architecture of each OS would remain distinct, with only commonalities. Isn't iOS already based off the OSX kernel anyway?
This would likely involve unifying the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store, which makes sense I would think. When browsing on a Mac, only Mac Apps or Universal Apps would be listed, and vice versa, just like when browsing on an iPhone you don't see iPad apps.
so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.
-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
-many websites were still not optimized for tablet
-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms
Do you believe this represents the needs of the typical user? Business user?
We haven't done any MS Office work for 4-5 years. iWork is more than adequate on our Macs and iPads.
Yes, I can see for some that an iPad could never replace a laptop... but the converse is also true... how many millions of iPads could be replaced with a laptop? In what situations?
Swype (and several similar apps) are available on the iPad. With iOS 6 and the new iPad Siri dictation is available -- works quite well.
Streaming speed and buffering are seldom a problem in my experience.
There is an iPad app called Tapozé which implements Snap Screen and a 2-step drag and drop between two side-by-side apps... This would be a nice feature for Apple to implement.
exactly, but while a tablet can be used for 95% of the things most people need to do i would still prefer a traditional PC currently. for things like tabs....
And as for better battery life, that is generally true, a few computers have splice batteries that can give them crazy battery life.. As on my earlier post said, one laptop with splice battery + one replacing its cd slot theoretically gives it almost 20 hours of wifi surfing the web...
not that it matters, because tablets will (should) become the largest portion of the marketshare every year (not just after Apple's huge iPad penetration)!
However, the surface is the kind of tablet a "power user" would use.... for example on my jailbroken iPhone i typically have 20+ tabs open....
just to sum up my big overall point is that for the next 5-10 years PC+ makes sense. afterwards, once tablets are enough for everything for super power workstations, multimonitors and heavy gaming, and servers (herp derp, its my tablet server), etc, etc. Than i will say it is a post-(traditional) PC era....
I disagree with your notion that in 5-10 years, tablets will be able to replace power user functionality. While the processor may be up for it, the form factor is the limitation. But how often do most people "need" to do what a PC can do? As I mentioned, the majority of people just want to check email, browse the web, play Angry Birds, check FaceBook, view photos, etc. Tablets can do that (and often do it more conveniently).
The notion of "post-PC" doesn't mean PCs are replaced entirely. It just means that there is a paradigm shift where the majority of users realize they don't need to have a PC for their daily life, or only need a single PC for the whole house — as opposed to the era when each family member practically had a PC. The new paradigm is that PCs are for work and power use. Thus they are "trucks", while the average person drives a sedan for personal use. There will continue to be the huge need for PC Trucks in work, and just like some people need (or want but don't really need) a personal truck, a niche of power users will continue to have a PC Truck. But post-PC means that the MAJORITY of average users will be fine with a Tablet Sedan.
Thus the whole semantics debate of "post-PC" vs "PC+" is stupid. Apple believes most people want to drive a Tablet Sedan for personal use, and MS still feels like the average user really wants a PC Truck. It's a philosophical difference, and that gets lost when you're arguing semantics.
so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.
-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
-many websites were still not optimized for tablet
-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms
iPads aren't mean to replace the functionality of PCs for work/media creation (most of the time), any more than sedans are meant to haul gravel around like a pickup truck.
But most people don't need to haul gravel around and thus don't need a pickup truck, just like most people don't need to create a lot of content and thus don't need a PC.
iPads are fine for some light content creation (typing a letter, email, light photo/video editing) just like a sedan is fine for hauling groceries. And that's the most the majority of people need to do.
For most people, the power and functionality of PCs are overkill, and come at the expense of being more cumbersome, less portable, and have a higher learning curve. That's the post-PC paradigm shift: the emancipation of the average user from having to use, learn to use, or fearing to learn to use a PC for such "complicated" tasks such as web browsing, email checking, Angry Birds-playing, or Facebooking. Just like the PC era empowered individuals, the post-PC era is continuing to empower even the technically-challenged.
Do you believe this represents the needs of the typical user? Business user?
We haven't done any MS Office work for 4-5 years. iWork is more than adequate on our Macs and iPads.
Yes, I can see for some that an iPad could never replace a laptop... but the converse is also true... how many millions of iPads could be replaced with a laptop? In what situations?
Swype (and several similar apps) are available on the iPad. With iOS 6 and the new iPad Siri dictation is available -- works quite well.
Streaming speed and buffering are seldom a problem in my experience.
There is an iPad app called Tapozé which implements Snap Screen and a 2-step drag and drop between two side-by-side apps... This would be a nice feature for Apple to implement.
Yes, it is not the same way all people use their computers.... And i am giving you the feedback of one person who used them for 4 to 5 months, they were under the mentorship or people from two huge financial companies (as i stated) he was traveling for 2-3 or these months.
Also their is a program that makes it so you can always use swype on the iPad? that would be changing a very large part of what Apple has put into, i think this would be illegal
'Here's another iPad app from Michael Cioni's Light Iron. This allows multiple iPads to collaborate on a film using a complimentary Mac server app:
Yes. the technology certainly exists to do this on laptops or desktops... but they never developed it for that paradigm. If you consider why, you will quickly realize that many of the collaborators (makeup artists, costume designers, directors, lighting crew, etc.) are people with no or minimal experience/aptitude for pc-era computers. What makes this solution workable is that it only requires an iPad and a learning curve of about 4 minutes (the length of the video).
Even a genius, regardless of fields of expertise, can run this app!
Here's another app along similar lines -- an iPad clapperboard app. A clapboard is used to identify video takes, and especially to synchronize takes when multiple cameras are filming the same event, concurrently, from different angles:
Yes, it is not the same way all people use their computers.... And i am giving you the feedback of one person who used them for 4 to 5 months, they were under the mentorship or people from two huge financial companies (as i stated) he was traveling for 2-3 or these months.
Also their is a program that makes it so you can always use swype on the iPad? that would be changing a very large part of what Apple has put into, i think this would be illegal
Mmmm... AIR, Swype works within the app, not at the iOS level... point taken. Siri, however, appears whenever a kb is displayed.
I'm so… hang on, I'm sorry, thirteen fifty?! Wha–what would–what… It's machined plastic, some stickers, and a $3 number readout from 1978.
No wonder movies cost $200,000,000 to make.
I know I have to be missing something about modern clapboards…
That's the MS philosophy encapsulated... When you're the only game in town, you can charge whatever the market will bear -- regardless of the quality of the product.
Next question?
Edit: Actually, the nixie tubes predate 1978 by several decades:
P.S. If AI doesn't fix its smilies soon, Im a gonna' start using this.
so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.
-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
-many websites were still not optimized for tablet
-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms
This is really interesting information to me because I'm still struggling with the question of whether we're seeing the death (albeit slow) of the 30-year old Mac/Win-style user experience.
We all seem to agree that the new style OS's will increasingly represent the bulk (or even all) of most people's computing lives. So, as devices become more powerful and the new OS's more powerful, flexible, etc. What sustainable advantages do the legacy OS's hold?
Here's a summation based on a reading of the thread:
- Display real estate
- File management
- Multiple simultaneous activities
- Text input
- Streaming speed (power)
Am I missing anything?
I have to say, based on the above list, I'm not sure there's really a great reason to keep the old-style UX around. File management's a real interesting one. Don't we all HATE the Finder? I know I do. DESPISE IT! I get that the current iOS doesn't provide nearly enough flexibility. But folder hierarchies are a nightmare to maintain. Seriously. I can't tell you how many days I'm wishing for some kind of automagic file tagging system. Maybe what the current iOS system promotes is a kind of "republic of file management systems" in which individual apps that have high file management demands devise their own solutions. Then, at some point perhaps a consensus emerges on the optimal one and it gets implemented at the OS level and used cross-app.
These other items seem somewhat addressable in the new UX paradigm as well.
So, maybe we're just gradually transitioning to this new UX paradigm, represented today by iOS/Metro and the like, that will seamlessly scale along the spectrum of power needs and device sizes, scooters to trucks if you will.
Honestly though, I just can't imagine a day without keyboards
Edit: Actually, the nixie tubes predate 1978 by several decades:
P.S. If AI doesn't fix its smilies soon, Im a gonna' start using this.
Oh, that's no Nixie, that's just one of those generic seven-bar displays that you see on calculators, ovens, microwaves, and everything in the '80s because it was new (and now because it's dirt cheap and ugly).
If it was a Nixie, it might almost be worth a quarter of that price, if only for nostalgia purposes, but I don't think clapboards ever even used them in the first place.
Also, I just use Mountain/Lion's emoji anymore. only goes so far.
This is really interesting information to me because I'm still struggling with the question of whether we're seeing the death (albeit slow) of the 30-year old Mac/Win-style user experience.
We all seem to agree that the new style OS's will increasingly represent the bulk (or even all) of most people's computing lives. So, as devices become more powerful and the new OS's more powerful, flexible, etc. What sustainable advantages do the legacy OS's hold?
Here's a summation based on a reading of the thread:
- Display real estate
- File management
- Multiple simultaneous activities
- Text input
- Streaming speed (power)
Am I missing anything?
I have to say, based on the above list, I'm not sure there's really a great reason to keep the old-style UX around. File management's a real interesting one. Don't we all HATE the Finder? I know I do. DESPISE IT! I get that the current iOS doesn't provide nearly enough flexibility. But folder hierarchies are a nightmare to maintain. Seriously. I can't tell you how many days I'm wishing for some kind of automagic file tagging system. Maybe what the current iOS system promotes is a kind of "republic of file management systems" in which individual apps that have high file management demands devise their own solutions. Then, at some point perhaps a consensus emerges on the optimal one and it gets implemented at the OS level and used cross-app.
These other items seem somewhat addressable in the new UX paradigm as well.
So, maybe we're just gradually transitioning to this new UX paradigm, represented today by iOS/Metro and the like, that will seamlessly scale along the spectrum of power needs and device sizes, scooters to trucks if you will.
Honestly though, I just can't imagine a day without keyboards
As to the FF (Fine Finder): I believe that the basic constructs are in place to finally replace the Finder.
Here's the big question -- why should you care where a file is stored -- as long as you can find it? But being able to easily find a file should not require that you, the user remember the name, date, file type, application creator, etc.
I think the solution lies in the convergence of system (and user) generated metadata, keyword collections, smart folders and a database.
Oddly, the most progressive use of this, I have seen, is in Final Cut Pro X.
On ingest of media, FCPX captures whatever metadata is available... camera model, serial number, f-stop, lens type, FPS, etc.
In addition, FCP X can scan the ingested content and detect closeup, medium and distant shots, determine the number of people in a shot.
Also, FCP X can scan for video/color/sound problems such as shake, over/under exposure and background noise.
The results of these scans and analyses are stored in smart collections (a database implementation of OS X smart folders).
The user can setup his own, customized smart collections and specify multiple parameters that qualify files to be included -- from that time on, whenever a file is ingested a pointer is stored in the qualifying smart collections (database).
Then there are keyword collections -- the user can define custom keywords that he wants to use to identify various files. The keywords are analogous to a filter or search term database index. Any file can appear in multiple keyword collections.
Any keywords can be used in combination with smart collections to provide access in anyway that is useful to the user.
Everything (including uncategorized files) can be located by search...
And there is a hierarchy of events, smart collections and keyword collections that the user can navigate to determine how things are classified (not where they are stored).
Mostly, the user is not concerned where things are stored -- only how he can access them.
The user can instruct FCP X to gather files together for export, backup or collaboration.
All this can be done without ever using the Fine Finder.
If you want to see a little of this in action, here's a short video:
BTW, There is a camera under development that streams the video as it is being shot to an iPad via WiFi. The custom iPad app is used by an assistant director to apply metadata, keywords, and smart collection data in real time. The video is not stored on the iPad -- only the developed metadata. Later, when the video is ingested into FCP X, the metadata from the iPad will be combine to l=flesh out the database.
This eliminates most of the delay needed to classify the media after it is ingested.
Edit: FWIW, the database used by FCP X is SQLite -- equally at home on OS X and iOS.
I'm really enjoying this discussion and direction this thread has taken in the last dozen or so posts.
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
However, I think other elements of the UI we assume will never change may well change. Like the Finder. To paraphrase fictional character William Adama, sometimes we never stop to ask "why?" Why does the Finder deserve to exist, for instance? Sometimes you need to step back and look at the end goal; for instance, what do people want? They want to easily open files they saved. The folder metaphor has worked well for decades, but is there a better way? Does it deserve to survive? I don't know, but I'm glad Apple is a company that doesn't stay stuck in the past (floppy disks, optical... victims of not deserving to survive).
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
Quick note on "power." It's moving to the cloud so fast. Sony just bought that gaming company Gaikai. OnLive is a domestic competitor founded by former QuickTime co-inventor Steve Perlman. Basically, it's console gaming with the console in the cloud. It just receives controller input upstream, then pushes video back. It works on all clients, from phones to PCs. And, yes, near-latency-free.
The point is that once you have near-latency-free display being driven from the cloud, client power becomes irrelevant. You literally just need a display and 2005-era computing power. So, all the power is in the cloud. You can theoretically render a friggin' Pixar movie in realtime on your iPhone 3GS.
So, it's really weird because the low-power client can have all the power in the world. I think their will still be some applications for locally powerful devices, where there's zero-tolerance for latency. But, if this cloud technology works today for console games, it's really gotta be zero tolerance. So, what are those applications? Some medical and industrial and such? Mainly highly specialized types. I can't think of too many.
I think the only thing in the way of this model becoming widespread, is ubiquitous, cheap broadband. But, not for much longer.
Bottom-line: It's hard to see how the "power" factor really stays on the "sustainable advantage" list.
Well, excluding your last two points, which tablets can indeed match (for the majority of users, either currently or in the near future (5-10 years)) i believe you have very clearly summed up exactly what traditional PC's will continue to have over tablets.
I'm really enjoying this discussion and direction this thread has taken in the last dozen or so posts.
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
However, I think other elements of the UI we assume will never change may well change. Like the Finder. To paraphrase fictional character William Adama, sometimes we never stop to ask "why?" Why does the Finder deserve to exist, for instance? Sometimes you need to step back and look at the end goal; for instance, what do people want? They want to easily open files they saved. The folder metaphor has worked well for decades, but is there a better way? Does it deserve to survive? I don't know, but I'm glad Apple is a company that doesn't stay stuck in the past (floppy disks, optical... victims of not deserving to survive).
This is a good discussion -- lots of good questions and some on-point answers... we're all guilty of flights of fancy -- but that just adds spice to the discussion...
I am counting on at least 5 FCP X conversions -- how many can I put you down for?
Well, excluding your last two points, which tablets can indeed match (for the majority of users, either currently or in the near future (5-10 years)) i believe you have very clearly summed up exactly what traditional PC's will continue to have over tablets.
Except...
- Display real estate
Couldn't tablets drive large and multiple displays? Especially with AirPlay like technology?
- File management
Isn't it kinda broken on the desktop as is and ripe for transformation anyway?
- Multiple simultaneous activities
Ok, I don't have an easy solution on this one. But, that's not to say there isn't one.
And either way, aren't we getting down to a pretty weak and finite set of pegs on which to hang the future of the PC?
I think the Surface would be better described as a traditional PC because Microsoft wants it to do basically everything a PC does. Also it sounds like your going to have to sit down at a desk or table to use it, the screen stands up, it has a keyboard, how is this going to work sitting in a car, or on a train, or standing up, and any of dozens of other places people are now using tablets or mobile phones?
Also, if this thing is going to have an operating system like a more traditional PC and do all these other things that old style PC's can do, then how much storage is it going to need and how long is it going to take to boot up every time you turn it on? I have both a PC and an IPad and I use my IPad 75% of the time now because I love the instant on concept, everything is instantly there, and it has amazing battery life. What is a Surface tablet going to have in the way of battery life with all these programs, keyboards etc. running on it? Also, everything I need, music, apps, pics, etc. can be stored on 16 gigs of storage on my IPad. How much storage is a Surface tablet going to need just for the programs...Windows 8, Office, Adobe Photo Shop, and all the other programs people use on there traditional PC's? Your Surface is going to have to be like a laptop with a 100 gigs of storage or more just to get started. My PC laptop has 350 gigs and it's full, mostly family photos and videos. I don't want all that stuff on a tablet I'm walking around with. For a tablet, I want simplicity. I want only what I need for everyday use which includes only my most recent photos etc. If I was thinking of getting a computer that does all the things Microsoft was claiming the Surface will be able to do I would rather just get a laptop, it would be less expensive. If I wanted the Surface for its size, I would rather get a MacBook Air or an Ultrabook, at least those you can type on in your lap easily and not go blind trying to do everything you do on a laptop or PC on a 10 inch screen. Imagine trying to do spreadsheets all day, or photoshopping on a 10 inch Surface tablet, you would probably be cross eyed after an hour or less. Microsoft would have been better off marketing the Surface as the ultimate Ultrabook, a micro laptop. Better yet, increase the size and make it a 12 or 13 inch laptop with the thickness of a tablet...basically a MacBook Air with more power and even thinner...anything would be better than the idea they are pushing with the current Surface. My family will probably always have a PC for keeping hard drives updated with family photos, movies, personal documents, school papers etc. but for everything else my family uses their phones and tablets. The simpler the better. Microsoft, and now Android are using the concept of hoarders ( I'm sure you have seen the shows) "I MIGHT need it so I should keep it" when it comes to operating systems. The problem is that most people will never use 90% of the crap their computer can do, so why do you want it or feel the need to keep it. That's why I like IOS so much, I don't have what I don't need or want clogging up my tablet.
I'msimplyexaminingthe contentwithVainnessHonest "How MillisecondsLostThe Mojo". Looks likethey are sayingmany experts havethe tenyrruleof Ballmer 's the reasonfor the "Lost Decade". From the tender ,Mr. KnowsAll this, opens theteethonce more. Any oneimaginewe shouldtake note?
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Ahh... I should have been clearer. I did not mean identical code -- rather a shared, common code-base for the iOS, OS X (and possibly server version) of the same (or complimentary apps).
Rignt now in iOS, you can include common code, then unique iPad and unique iPhone code in the same source code-base. Then you simple compile and link [package] for the desired targets.
I would add [at least] two capabilities:
-- allow for the inclusion of OS X source and iOS source in the common code-base.
-- defer the packaging (at least the linking) to downloaad/install and/or execution time.
As to selling Macs to grandma or the youngsters' parents... Likely, for the next 3-5 years there will be a periodic need for a Truck -- to hold your media, to backup and sync, to act as an in intermediary between your iPad and the cloud.
You might think of this as a home server. Today, this would likely, be a Mac Mini with some external HDD and, possibly, the iPad as the display for the headless Mini. In all likelihood, though, Apple could combine storage, AirPort Extreme, TimeMachine into an AppleTV-like box that provides the necessary support functions.
When the cost/speed of bandwidth and storage advance to the proper levels, these "Mac" functions could be handled by the cloud.
I do support the notion of Universal apps that include code for OSX, iOS (iPhone) and iOS (iPad), with a smart function that installs the correct version on each device. If purchased on the iPad, for instance, the correct version would be installed on your iPhone and iMac, for instance. However, the architecture of each OS would remain distinct, with only commonalities. Isn't iOS already based off the OSX kernel anyway?
This would likely involve unifying the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store, which makes sense I would think. When browsing on a Mac, only Mac Apps or Universal Apps would be listed, and vice versa, just like when browsing on an iPhone you don't see iPad apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.
-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
-many websites were still not optimized for tablet
-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms
Do you believe this represents the needs of the typical user? Business user?
We haven't done any MS Office work for 4-5 years. iWork is more than adequate on our Macs and iPads.
Yes, I can see for some that an iPad could never replace a laptop... but the converse is also true... how many millions of iPads could be replaced with a laptop? In what situations?
Swype (and several similar apps) are available on the iPad. With iOS 6 and the new iPad Siri dictation is available -- works quite well.
Streaming speed and buffering are seldom a problem in my experience.
There is an iPad app called Tapozé which implements Snap Screen and a 2-step drag and drop between two side-by-side apps... This would be a nice feature for Apple to implement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
exactly, but while a tablet can be used for 95% of the things most people need to do i would still prefer a traditional PC currently. for things like tabs....
And as for better battery life, that is generally true, a few computers have splice batteries that can give them crazy battery life.. As on my earlier post said, one laptop with splice battery + one replacing its cd slot theoretically gives it almost 20 hours of wifi surfing the web...
not that it matters, because tablets will (should) become the largest portion of the marketshare every year (not just after Apple's huge iPad penetration)!
However, the surface is the kind of tablet a "power user" would use.... for example on my jailbroken iPhone i typically have 20+ tabs open....
just to sum up my big overall point is that for the next 5-10 years PC+ makes sense. afterwards, once tablets are enough for everything for super power workstations, multimonitors and heavy gaming, and servers (herp derp, its my tablet server), etc, etc. Than i will say it is a post-(traditional) PC era....
I disagree with your notion that in 5-10 years, tablets will be able to replace power user functionality. While the processor may be up for it, the form factor is the limitation. But how often do most people "need" to do what a PC can do? As I mentioned, the majority of people just want to check email, browse the web, play Angry Birds, check FaceBook, view photos, etc. Tablets can do that (and often do it more conveniently).
The notion of "post-PC" doesn't mean PCs are replaced entirely. It just means that there is a paradigm shift where the majority of users realize they don't need to have a PC for their daily life, or only need a single PC for the whole house — as opposed to the era when each family member practically had a PC. The new paradigm is that PCs are for work and power use. Thus they are "trucks", while the average person drives a sedan for personal use. There will continue to be the huge need for PC Trucks in work, and just like some people need (or want but don't really need) a personal truck, a niche of power users will continue to have a PC Truck. But post-PC means that the MAJORITY of average users will be fine with a Tablet Sedan.
Thus the whole semantics debate of "post-PC" vs "PC+" is stupid. Apple believes most people want to drive a Tablet Sedan for personal use, and MS still feels like the average user really wants a PC Truck. It's a philosophical difference, and that gets lost when you're arguing semantics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.
-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
-many websites were still not optimized for tablet
-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms
iPads aren't mean to replace the functionality of PCs for work/media creation (most of the time), any more than sedans are meant to haul gravel around like a pickup truck.
But most people don't need to haul gravel around and thus don't need a pickup truck, just like most people don't need to create a lot of content and thus don't need a PC.
iPads are fine for some light content creation (typing a letter, email, light photo/video editing) just like a sedan is fine for hauling groceries. And that's the most the majority of people need to do.
For most people, the power and functionality of PCs are overkill, and come at the expense of being more cumbersome, less portable, and have a higher learning curve. That's the post-PC paradigm shift: the emancipation of the average user from having to use, learn to use, or fearing to learn to use a PC for such "complicated" tasks such as web browsing, email checking, Angry Birds-playing, or Facebooking. Just like the PC era empowered individuals, the post-PC era is continuing to empower even the technically-challenged.
PCs will still have their niche.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Do you believe this represents the needs of the typical user? Business user?
We haven't done any MS Office work for 4-5 years. iWork is more than adequate on our Macs and iPads.
Yes, I can see for some that an iPad could never replace a laptop... but the converse is also true... how many millions of iPads could be replaced with a laptop? In what situations?
Swype (and several similar apps) are available on the iPad. With iOS 6 and the new iPad Siri dictation is available -- works quite well.
Streaming speed and buffering are seldom a problem in my experience.
There is an iPad app called Tapozé which implements Snap Screen and a 2-step drag and drop between two side-by-side apps... This would be a nice feature for Apple to implement.
Yes, it is not the same way all people use their computers.... And i am giving you the feedback of one person who used them for 4 to 5 months, they were under the mentorship or people from two huge financial companies (as i stated) he was traveling for 2-3 or these months.
Also their is a program that makes it so you can always use swype on the iPad? that would be changing a very large part of what Apple has put into, i think this would be illegal
'Here's another iPad app from Michael Cioni's Light Iron. This allows multiple iPads to collaborate on a film using a complimentary Mac server app:
Yes. the technology certainly exists to do this on laptops or desktops... but they never developed it for that paradigm. If you consider why, you will quickly realize that many of the collaborators (makeup artists, costume designers, directors, lighting crew, etc.) are people with no or minimal experience/aptitude for pc-era computers. What makes this solution workable is that it only requires an iPad and a learning curve of about 4 minutes (the length of the video).
Even a genius, regardless of fields of expertise, can run this app!
Here's another app along similar lines -- an iPad clapperboard app. A clapboard is used to identify video takes, and especially to synchronize takes when multiple cameras are filming the same event, concurrently, from different angles:
http://www.movie-slate.com/
This app costs $24... there are other, similar, apps for $0-$24.
This app replaces a dedicated device costing $1,350:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/06/digital-movie-clapboard-for-ipad-replaces-1350-uni-tasker/
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
Yes, it is not the same way all people use their computers.... And i am giving you the feedback of one person who used them for 4 to 5 months, they were under the mentorship or people from two huge financial companies (as i stated) he was traveling for 2-3 or these months.
Also their is a program that makes it so you can always use swype on the iPad? that would be changing a very large part of what Apple has put into, i think this would be illegal
Mmmm... AIR, Swype works within the app, not at the iOS level... point taken. Siri, however, appears whenever a kb is displayed.
I'm so… hang on, I'm sorry, thirteen fifty?! Wha–what would–what… It's machined plastic, some stickers, and a $3 number readout from 1978.
No wonder movies cost $200,000,000 to make.
I know I have to be missing something about modern clapboards…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I'm so… hang on, I'm sorry, thirteen fifty?! Wha–what would–what… It's machined plastic, some stickers, and a $3 number readout from 1978.
No wonder movies cost $200,000,000 to make.
I know I have to be missing something about modern clapboards…
That's the MS philosophy encapsulated... When you're the only game in town, you can charge whatever the market will bear -- regardless of the quality of the product.
Next question?
Edit: Actually, the nixie tubes predate 1978 by several decades:
P.S. If AI doesn't fix its smilies soon, Im a gonna' start using this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.
-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
-many websites were still not optimized for tablet
-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms
This is really interesting information to me because I'm still struggling with the question of whether we're seeing the death (albeit slow) of the 30-year old Mac/Win-style user experience.
We all seem to agree that the new style OS's will increasingly represent the bulk (or even all) of most people's computing lives. So, as devices become more powerful and the new OS's more powerful, flexible, etc. What sustainable advantages do the legacy OS's hold?
Here's a summation based on a reading of the thread:
- Display real estate
- File management
- Multiple simultaneous activities
- Text input
- Streaming speed (power)
Am I missing anything?
I have to say, based on the above list, I'm not sure there's really a great reason to keep the old-style UX around. File management's a real interesting one. Don't we all HATE the Finder? I know I do. DESPISE IT! I get that the current iOS doesn't provide nearly enough flexibility. But folder hierarchies are a nightmare to maintain. Seriously. I can't tell you how many days I'm wishing for some kind of automagic file tagging system. Maybe what the current iOS system promotes is a kind of "republic of file management systems" in which individual apps that have high file management demands devise their own solutions. Then, at some point perhaps a consensus emerges on the optimal one and it gets implemented at the OS level and used cross-app.
These other items seem somewhat addressable in the new UX paradigm as well.
So, maybe we're just gradually transitioning to this new UX paradigm, represented today by iOS/Metro and the like, that will seamlessly scale along the spectrum of power needs and device sizes, scooters to trucks if you will.
Honestly though, I just can't imagine a day without keyboards
Oh, that's no Nixie, that's just one of those generic seven-bar displays that you see on calculators, ovens, microwaves, and everything in the '80s because it was new (and now because it's dirt cheap and ugly).
If it was a Nixie, it might almost be worth a quarter of that price, if only for nostalgia purposes, but I don't think clapboards ever even used them in the first place.
Also, I just use Mountain/Lion's emoji anymore.
????
The best products Microsoft makes is office & Xbox360, everything else they seem to put effort into is an unfortunate waste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago
This is really interesting information to me because I'm still struggling with the question of whether we're seeing the death (albeit slow) of the 30-year old Mac/Win-style user experience.
We all seem to agree that the new style OS's will increasingly represent the bulk (or even all) of most people's computing lives. So, as devices become more powerful and the new OS's more powerful, flexible, etc. What sustainable advantages do the legacy OS's hold?
Here's a summation based on a reading of the thread:
- Display real estate
- File management
- Multiple simultaneous activities
- Text input
- Streaming speed (power)
Am I missing anything?
I have to say, based on the above list, I'm not sure there's really a great reason to keep the old-style UX around. File management's a real interesting one. Don't we all HATE the Finder? I know I do. DESPISE IT! I get that the current iOS doesn't provide nearly enough flexibility. But folder hierarchies are a nightmare to maintain. Seriously. I can't tell you how many days I'm wishing for some kind of automagic file tagging system. Maybe what the current iOS system promotes is a kind of "republic of file management systems" in which individual apps that have high file management demands devise their own solutions. Then, at some point perhaps a consensus emerges on the optimal one and it gets implemented at the OS level and used cross-app.
These other items seem somewhat addressable in the new UX paradigm as well.
So, maybe we're just gradually transitioning to this new UX paradigm, represented today by iOS/Metro and the like, that will seamlessly scale along the spectrum of power needs and device sizes, scooters to trucks if you will.
Honestly though, I just can't imagine a day without keyboards
As to the FF (Fine Finder): I believe that the basic constructs are in place to finally replace the Finder.
Here's the big question -- why should you care where a file is stored -- as long as you can find it? But being able to easily find a file should not require that you, the user remember the name, date, file type, application creator, etc.
I think the solution lies in the convergence of system (and user) generated metadata, keyword collections, smart folders and a database.
Oddly, the most progressive use of this, I have seen, is in Final Cut Pro X.
On ingest of media, FCPX captures whatever metadata is available... camera model, serial number, f-stop, lens type, FPS, etc.
In addition, FCP X can scan the ingested content and detect closeup, medium and distant shots, determine the number of people in a shot.
Also, FCP X can scan for video/color/sound problems such as shake, over/under exposure and background noise.
The results of these scans and analyses are stored in smart collections (a database implementation of OS X smart folders).
The user can setup his own, customized smart collections and specify multiple parameters that qualify files to be included -- from that time on, whenever a file is ingested a pointer is stored in the qualifying smart collections (database).
Then there are keyword collections -- the user can define custom keywords that he wants to use to identify various files. The keywords are analogous to a filter or search term database index. Any file can appear in multiple keyword collections.
Any keywords can be used in combination with smart collections to provide access in anyway that is useful to the user.
Everything (including uncategorized files) can be located by search...
And there is a hierarchy of events, smart collections and keyword collections that the user can navigate to determine how things are classified (not where they are stored).
Mostly, the user is not concerned where things are stored -- only how he can access them.
The user can instruct FCP X to gather files together for export, backup or collaboration.
All this can be done without ever using the Fine Finder.
If you want to see a little of this in action, here's a short video:
BTW, There is a camera under development that streams the video as it is being shot to an iPad via WiFi. The custom iPad app is used by an assistant director to apply metadata, keywords, and smart collection data in real time. The video is not stored on the iPad -- only the developed metadata. Later, when the video is ingested into FCP X, the metadata from the iPad will be combine to l=flesh out the database.
This eliminates most of the delay needed to classify the media after it is ingested.
Edit: FWIW, the database used by FCP X is SQLite -- equally at home on OS X and iOS.
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
However, I think other elements of the UI we assume will never change may well change. Like the Finder. To paraphrase fictional character William Adama, sometimes we never stop to ask "why?" Why does the Finder deserve to exist, for instance? Sometimes you need to step back and look at the end goal; for instance, what do people want? They want to easily open files they saved. The folder metaphor has worked well for decades, but is there a better way? Does it deserve to survive? I don't know, but I'm glad Apple is a company that doesn't stay stuck in the past (floppy disks, optical... victims of not deserving to survive).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
Quick note on "power." It's moving to the cloud so fast. Sony just bought that gaming company Gaikai. OnLive is a domestic competitor founded by former QuickTime co-inventor Steve Perlman. Basically, it's console gaming with the console in the cloud. It just receives controller input upstream, then pushes video back. It works on all clients, from phones to PCs. And, yes, near-latency-free.
The point is that once you have near-latency-free display being driven from the cloud, client power becomes irrelevant. You literally just need a display and 2005-era computing power. So, all the power is in the cloud. You can theoretically render a friggin' Pixar movie in realtime on your iPhone 3GS.
So, it's really weird because the low-power client can have all the power in the world. I think their will still be some applications for locally powerful devices, where there's zero-tolerance for latency. But, if this cloud technology works today for console games, it's really gotta be zero tolerance. So, what are those applications? Some medical and industrial and such? Mainly highly specialized types. I can't think of too many.
I think the only thing in the way of this model becoming widespread, is ubiquitous, cheap broadband. But, not for much longer.
Bottom-line: It's hard to see how the "power" factor really stays on the "sustainable advantage" list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago
- Display real estate
- File management
- Multiple simultaneous activities
- Text input
- Streaming speed (power)
Well, excluding your last two points, which tablets can indeed match (for the majority of users, either currently or in the near future (5-10 years)) i believe you have very clearly summed up exactly what traditional PC's will continue to have over tablets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
I'm really enjoying this discussion and direction this thread has taken in the last dozen or so posts.
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
However, I think other elements of the UI we assume will never change may well change. Like the Finder. To paraphrase fictional character William Adama, sometimes we never stop to ask "why?" Why does the Finder deserve to exist, for instance? Sometimes you need to step back and look at the end goal; for instance, what do people want? They want to easily open files they saved. The folder metaphor has worked well for decades, but is there a better way? Does it deserve to survive? I don't know, but I'm glad Apple is a company that doesn't stay stuck in the past (floppy disks, optical... victims of not deserving to survive).
This is a good discussion -- lots of good questions and some on-point answers... we're all guilty of flights of fancy -- but that just adds spice to the discussion...
I am counting on at least 5 FCP X conversions -- how many can I put you down for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
Well, excluding your last two points, which tablets can indeed match (for the majority of users, either currently or in the near future (5-10 years)) i believe you have very clearly summed up exactly what traditional PC's will continue to have over tablets.
Except...
- Display real estate
Couldn't tablets drive large and multiple displays? Especially with AirPlay like technology?
- File management
Isn't it kinda broken on the desktop as is and ripe for transformation anyway?
- Multiple simultaneous activities
Ok, I don't have an easy solution on this one. But, that's not to say there isn't one.
And either way, aren't we getting down to a pretty weak and finite set of pegs on which to hang the future of the PC?
Also, if this thing is going to have an operating system like a more traditional PC and do all these other things that old style PC's can do, then how much storage is it going to need and how long is it going to take to boot up every time you turn it on? I have both a PC and an IPad and I use my IPad 75% of the time now because I love the instant on concept, everything is instantly there, and it has amazing battery life. What is a Surface tablet going to have in the way of battery life with all these programs, keyboards etc. running on it? Also, everything I need, music, apps, pics, etc. can be stored on 16 gigs of storage on my IPad. How much storage is a Surface tablet going to need just for the programs...Windows 8, Office, Adobe Photo Shop, and all the other programs people use on there traditional PC's? Your Surface is going to have to be like a laptop with a 100 gigs of storage or more just to get started. My PC laptop has 350 gigs and it's full, mostly family photos and videos. I don't want all that stuff on a tablet I'm walking around with.
For a tablet, I want simplicity. I want only what I need for everyday use which includes only my most recent photos etc.
If I was thinking of getting a computer that does all the things Microsoft was claiming the Surface will be able to do I would rather just get a laptop, it would be less expensive. If I wanted the Surface for its size, I would rather get a MacBook Air or an Ultrabook, at least those you can type on in your lap easily and not go blind trying to do everything you do on a laptop or PC on a 10 inch screen. Imagine trying to do spreadsheets all day, or photoshopping on a 10 inch Surface tablet, you would probably be cross eyed after an hour or less.
Microsoft would have been better off marketing the Surface as the ultimate Ultrabook, a micro laptop. Better yet, increase the size and make it a 12 or 13 inch laptop with the thickness of a tablet...basically a MacBook Air with more power and even thinner...anything would be better than the idea they are pushing with the current Surface.
My family will probably always have a PC for keeping hard drives updated with family photos, movies, personal documents, school papers etc. but for everything else my family uses their phones and tablets. The simpler the better.
Microsoft, and now Android are using the concept of hoarders ( I'm sure you have seen the shows) "I MIGHT need it so I should keep it" when it comes to operating systems. The problem is that most people will never use 90% of the crap their computer can do, so why do you want it or feel the need to keep it. That's why I like IOS so much, I don't have what I don't need or want clogging up my tablet.
I'm simply examining the content with Vainness Honest "How Milliseconds Lost The Mojo". Looks like they are saying many experts have the ten yr rule of Ballmer 's the reason for the "Lost Decade". From the tender ,Mr. Knows All this, opens the teeth once more. Any one imagine we should take note?