Microsoft says Apple's 'post-PC' view is wrong, claims it's a 'PC+' era

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  • Reply 161 of 213
    nicolbolasnicolbolas Posts: 254member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cilago View Post


     


    Except...


     


     


     


    Couldn't tablets drive large and multiple displays? Especially with AirPlay like technology?


     


     


    Isn't it kinda broken on the desktop as is and ripe for transformation anyway?


     


     


     


    Ok, I don't have an easy solution on this one. But, that's not to say there isn't one.


     


    And either way, aren't we getting down to a pretty weak and finite set of pegs on which to hang the future of the PC?



    are you joking? what do you call a tablet running multiple displays? a fail desktop.


    And the file system needs refining, but no tablet has had anything close to what is needed....


     


    other than that your right =.=


     


    and are you saying that screen space, drastically better file organization and easy true multitasking by the computer are small things 0.o

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  • Reply 162 of 213
    timgriff84timgriff84 Posts: 912member
    I agree with Microsoft. When Apple started designing the iPad and then iPhone, they needed to reinvent the UI and they also needed to make things full screen to enable some nice tricks that save battery life and keep things fast. Changing the desktop UI at this point wouldnt make sense.

    But as the years go on, the mobile processors are getting faster, batteries are getting better and keyboards are now getting thin enough to fit in an iPad smart cover. E.g. The surface. With that keyboard irrespective of the os the device is a tablet / laptop, it isn't a post pc device, it's just a different design. If you can then make a UI that can work well for fingers and a mouse then you definetaly aren't post pc.

    I fully believe the iPad and macs will have one OS in the future. Has the low powered processors get to a high enough spec there's no reason for them not to. Apple may not say it at the moment, but that's just the same as them saying iPods and phones are best kept separate.

    It's also a good thing, you can still have small apps that are best for tablets, but having the full program there if you need it will solve a lot of problems with current tablets. E.g. I recently had to write 300 words on a topic to go in a newsletter. Naturally did it in pages on my iPad on the sofa. Turns out pages for iPad doesn't have a word count. It's 2012 I have what is meant to be the best tablet, with the official word processor and it doesn't have a feature invented in the 80s, but the ui looks nice.
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  • Reply 163 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post



    I agree with Microsoft. When Apple started designing the iPad and then iPhone, they needed to reinvent the UI and they also needed to make things full screen to enable some nice tricks that save battery life and keep things fast. Changing the desktop UI at this point wouldnt make sense.

    But as the years go on, the mobile processors are getting faster, batteries are getting better and keyboards are now getting thin enough to fit in an iPad smart cover. E.g. The surface. With that keyboard irrespective of the os the device is a tablet / laptop, it isn't a post pc device, it's just a different design. If you can then make a UI that can work well for fingers and a mouse then you definetaly aren't post pc.

    I fully believe the iPad and macs will have one OS in the future. Has the low powered processors get to a high enough spec there's no reason for them not to. Apple may not say it at the moment, but that's just the same as them saying iPods and phones are best kept separate.

    It's also a good thing, you can still have small apps that are best for tablets, but having the full program there if you need it will solve a lot of problems with current tablets. E.g. I recently had to write 300 words on a topic to go in a newsletter. Naturally did it in pages on my iPad on the sofa. Turns out pages for iPad doesn't have a word count. It's 2012 I have what is meant to be the best tablet, with the official word processor and it doesn't have a feature invented in the 80s, but the ui looks nice.


     


    So what did you do?


     


    BTW, I was able to determine that your post, above, meets the 300 word criteria.


     


    It took about 10 seconds -- and used a technique that has been around for centuries.

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  • Reply 164 of 213
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    nicolbolas wrote: »
    are you joking? what do you call a tablet running multiple displays?

    An iPad using AirPlay.
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  • Reply 165 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



    I think what they did with the keyboard cover is great and much better than Apple's keyboard dock, which you can't really take with you easily. 


     


    Shouldn't you wait to test their fancy new keyboard in person before declaring it as great and much better than Apple's keyboard dock? While it certainly LOOKS cool, I am willing to bet that real world usage will fall short of expectations. I'm anticipating a keyboard that requires pressing down firmly on each individual key as opposed to lightly tapping a touchscreen or Apple's time-tested keyboard. If my assumption is right, this new keyboard will be anything but fast and will result in fatigue or even repetitive stress injuries after extended use.


     


    But of course, all my predictions are worthless until the real product comes out and people can actually test it - just like everything Microsoft is claiming about this device, which no one at the event was allowed to use in person.


     


    If we've learned anything about Microsoft over the last 20+ years it's that their products never live up to their hype.

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  • Reply 166 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WizSquid View Post



    He has traded his Windows Phone (stylus) for an iPhone, picked up an iPad, but still uses PC's for doing 3D animation. Dell gives him $5k laptops for free because he is that good, and now he hates Windows 8 passionately. Very, very bad sign for MS.


     


    Dell makes a $5k laptop?? What kind of idiot would pay that kind of money for anything made by Dell?

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  • Reply 167 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


     


    It is unfinished product and it will be until there is CTL+ALT+DEL buttons!! Every Windows machine needs CTL ALT DEL! image



     


    Nah, I think Microsoft will provide a Metro tile for the frequently required reboots.

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  • Reply 168 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post



    OK this is Lenovo's laptop/tablet hybrid. Honestly who would ever use this as a tablet? It looks heavy, bulky and uncomfortable to hold as the back is the keyboard.



    flipping-the-screen-over-disables-the-keyboard-so-you-dont-accidentally-type-something.jpg



    To me this has fail written all over it. I just can't imagine myself on a bus/plane or at the park/beach reading a book with one of these things.


     


    It's telling that its most attractive feature is the keyboard design they copied from Apple. LOL.

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  • Reply 169 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post



    Oh and here's another Lenovo lt that the Apple haters swear up and down looks nothing like a Mac.

    Why is it so hard for people to admit that a lot of PC laptops/Ultrabooks take their design cues from the MacBook Pro/Air these days? It's so obvious. And has nothing to do with whether Apple invented something or not (i.e. wedge shape, chicklit keyboard), it's about the finished product, all th design components put together.



    KB_TP_3_1020_gallery_post.jpg





     


     


    I can almost hear the discussions that led to this design at Lenovo...


     


         "It will look just like a MacBook!"


     


         "Yeah, consumers are so dumb. They'll happily overpay for products just based on pretty looks. Just look at Apple's success!"


     


         "Hold on there... what about patent infringement...?"


     


         "No worries, boss. We've moved our Apple-cloned power button from the right side to the left, added an unnecessary scalloped edge to the keyboard keys,

         moved the touchpad to an awkward left-of-center position, and of course, we're including our usual assortment of crapware and hard to remove Windows/Intel stickers!!"


     


         "Ha! We even moved the ventilation slots to the bottom of the device! Let's see Apple top that!"


     


         "Brilliant! Commence manufacturing immediately!"

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  • Reply 170 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dsd View Post


    If putting Ballmer in charge and leaving him there for 10+ years isn't a real risk, I don't know what is.



     


    I think Bill Gates did this on purpose when he retired to reinforce his own legacy as the real "genius" behind Microsoft's success.

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  • Reply 171 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jnjnjn View Post





    MS Office is not even compatible with itself and not long ago a document with more than a few pages would get instable after a while.

    And belief me I tried to use it, because it was required.

    Good riddance I would say.

    J.


     


     


    Absolutely correct, lol. They not only have a totally different UI between their Mac and PC versions, but the file formats are not fully compatible. Also Microsoft and Adobe are probably the only two software makers that make installing and removing software on a Mac feel like the same crappy experience on the Windows PC, with their horrific installation software and retarded organization of application files.


     


    But this doesn't address my point, though, that even for a huge Apple fan like myself, iWork is a tough proposition given I work in an MS Office-centered environment. This would only work if I created documents in isolation. The moment you have to share with and collaborate with others, the dual software approach becomes so unwieldily that it's no longer justifiable.

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  • Reply 172 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


     


     


    and we'll actually see who was right/wrong, AGAIN.



     


     


    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


     


    Are you saying that Microsoft is "right" and that Google is "right" with Windows and Android, respectively? And that Apple is "wrong" with OSX and iOS for phones, both?


     


    Are you sure that market share and "right" are tightly correlated? 



     


     


    I think you've misread my comment if you think I'm on Microsoft's or Google's side of the argument. Please read in context and you'll see its quite the opposite.

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  • Reply 173 of 213
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,424member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


    Are you saying that Microsoft is "right" and that Google is "right" with Windows and Android, respectively? And that Apple is "wrong" with OSX and iOS for phones, both?


     


    Are you sure that market share and "right" are tightly correlated? 



     


     


    Shouldn't you wait to test their fancy new keyboard in person before declaring it as great and much better than Apple's keyboard dock?


     


    While it certainly LOOKS cool, I am willing to bet that real world usability will fall short of expectations. I'm anticipating a keyboard that requires pressing down firmly on each individual key as opposed to lightly tapping a touchscreen or Apple's time-tested keyboard. If my assumption is right, this new keyboard will be anything but fast and will result in fatigue or even repetitive stress injuries after extended use.


     


    But of course, all my predictions are worthless until the real product comes out and people can actually test it - just like everything Microsoft is claiming about this device, which no one at the event was allowed to use in person.


     


    If we've learned anything about Microsoft over the last 20+ years it's that their products never live up to their hype, assuming the product is ever released at all.

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  • Reply 174 of 213
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by freediverx View Post


     


     


    Shouldn't you wait to test their fancy new keyboard in person before declaring it as great and much better than Apple's keyboard dock?


     


    While it certainly LOOKS cool, I am willing to bet that real world usability will fall short of expectations. I'm anticipating a keyboard that requires pressing down firmly on each individual key as opposed to lightly tapping a touchscreen or Apple's time-tested keyboard. If my assumption is right, this new keyboard will be anything but fast and will result in fatigue or even repetitive stress injuries after extended use.


     


    But of course, all my predictions are worthless until the real product comes out and people can actually test it - just like everything Microsoft is claiming about this device, which no one at the event was allowed to use in person.


     


    If we've learned anything about Microsoft over the last 20+ years it's that their products never live up to their hype, assuming the product is ever released at all.



     Don't forget that there wil be 2 types of keyboard, one that is 3mm thicker and allows the key to be pressed down by 1.5mm (in common with laptop keyboards).


     


    Microsoft do have a history of making decent keyboards.

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  • Reply 175 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member


    Some thoughts on the iPad's file system:


     


    Like others posting here, I believe that one of the major differences between a traditional pc and a post-pc iPad is the accessibility of the file system.


     


    First, it is important to note that iOS has the same Unix file system as Mac OS with hierarchical folders, paths, symlinks, etc.   The difference is that iOS doesn't have a Finder equivalent -- so the file system is not visible or directly-accessable to the user.


     


    There are both advantages and disadvantages, depending on your perspective -- simplicity vs flexibility...  To many, one of the biggest turn-offs of a traditional OS is the complexity of navigating the file system.


     


    In an earlier post to this thread, I suggested "why should you care where a file is if you can easily access it?"


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


     


    As to the FF (Fine Finder):  I believe that the basic constructs are in place to finally replace the Finder.  


     


    Here's the big question -- why should you care where a file is stored -- as long as you can find it?  But being able to easily find a file should not require that you, the user remember the name, date, file type, application creator, etc.


     


    ...



     


    A potential implementation exists using search, keywords, smart collections, metadata along with a database -- I illustrated how FCP X (Final Cut Pro X) uses this approach to manage files without the need for the user to understand and navigate the bowels of the OS X file system.


     


    Like most here, I grew up with the file system and it is second nature to me -- to the extent that I often do unnecessary work... because I don't take full advantage of OS X capabilities such as searchlight and smart folders.


     


    That same bad habit [the old tried and true method is better] has followed me to the iPad -- I don't take full advantage of what's available.


     


    For example, on my iPad (and all our iDevices) we have access to over 16,000 songs stored on iCloud with iTunes Match.


     


    iTunesScreenSnapz001.png


     


     


    Now, if I want to find and play a song named "Lovey", the habitual way is to invoke the Music App, Select the "Songs" tab, type in the search field, select the song from the results displayed:


     


    Lovey Music app.png


     


    Typically, that would involve the following steps:


     



    1. press the home button to activate the home screen


    2. press the home button a second time to activate the Searchlight search


    3. type "music" into the search field to indicate the name of the app I want


    4. select the Music app from the displayed results to launch it


    5. select the "Songs" tab to denote that I want to find a song by title


    6. type "Lovey" into the search field to identify the song


    7. select the appropriate song from the results to play the song


     


    Whew!


     


    Now, breaking that old habit, instead I could:


     


    Spotlight 3.png


     



    1. press the home button to activate the home screen


    2. press the home button a second time to activate the Searchlight search


    3. type "lovey" into the search field to indicate the file [song] I want to play


    4. tap the song I want from the results to launch the music app and play the song


     


    Wow, I eliminated 3 steps out of 7!


     


     


    But, Even better (on iOS 6) I can just press-hold the Home and tell Siri:


     


    "Play Lovey by the Clovers"


     


    Siri Lovey.PNG


     


    Lovey, Where'd you get that crazy lookin' sweater?


    Lovey, I never saw a sweater lookin' better!


    Lovey, when you comin' off the shelf?


    With your crazy way of walkin' 


    You got me talkin' to myself!


     


    Wow! One step instead of seven... and Siri misheard me but figured out what I meant...  


     


    The only way I could do it in less steps...  If you could read my mind...


     


     


    Edit: here's a little challenge for you 50s-60s music aficionados -- see if you can find the song, album or lyrics of the song "Lovey" by the clovers (or anyone)... It does exist as I have the album.  Hint: rhythm and blues.   The problem is there are songs with similar names: Lovey Dovey;  Love, Love, Love; Love Potion #9...


     


     


    Let's delve a little deeper into the way you can find things on the iPad without access to the file systems:


     


     


    Here, I've invoked a searchlight search for "Melwani" and I get the following results:


     


    Sheena 1 spotlight.png


     


    And


     


     


     


     


    Sheena Spotlight 3.png


     


    These are my friends Sheena and Dinesh Melwani.  Searchlight shows me every file*  that contains a reference to "Melwani".  This includes:


     



    • contacts


    • music songs


    • videos


    • calendar events


    • emails


     


    If I tap on any selection it launches the app and displays (plays) the content.


     


    * At this point in time, the metadata/content of every file type is not catalogued by iOS... Files from apps like Pages, text messages, etc.  But the basic structure is in place.


     


     


    OK!


     


    I experimented with Searchlight search for songs -- remember we have over 16,000 songs in iCloud...


     


    I found that I could search for songs by: Title; Artist; Album; Genre...  even though I was not connected to the web.  I could find the songs, but could not play them -- that tells me that the index (database) exists on the iPad.


     


     


     If you explore what is already available on iOS devices and think ahead what is possible with some relatively minor enhancements...


     


    It just may be that the RTFF (Replacement For The Fine Finder) is at hand for iOS devices...


     


    It is interesting that Searchlight does a better job on the iPad -- maybe that's another iOS capability that will be migrated back to OS X.   Then, for many users, the current Fine Finder will be hidden and a tool of last resort.


     


    Finally I asked Siri:


     


    "Play a Polka"


     


    Siri Polka.PNG


     


    And, Siri got the pronunciation right:


     


    "Lauterbach Medley Waltz" (Oh Where, Oh Where Has My Little Dog Gone) by:


     


    "Whoopee John Wilfahrt"


     


    Aw, c'mon. Whoopee John... it just doesn't get any better than this!


     


    http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/the-whoopee-john-story/id278056318

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  • Reply 176 of 213
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Great post Mr. Applebaum.
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  • Reply 177 of 213
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,771member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


     


    dos -- see if you can find the song, album or lyrics of the song "Lovey" by the clovers (or anyone)... It does exist as I have the album.  Hint: Rythym & Blues.   The problem is there I love somebody named Lovey are songs with similar names: Lovey Dovey;  Love, Love, Love; Love Potion #9...



    courtesy of musiXmatch:


    http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/musixmatch-lyrics-+-player/id448278467?mt=8


     


    I love somebody named Lovey


    please don't tell anybody


    Lovey has no money


    or hope of a job


    yeah, take a look at the room


    that pearl is a slob


    why oh why do I love Lovey?...


     


    but by the Roches not the Clovers. Same song?

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  • Reply 178 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    Great post Mr. Applebaum.


     


     


    Of course!   This is my blog :)

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  • Reply 179 of 213
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member

    Of course!   This is my blog :)

    They need to get you a special section: Applebaum's Hour on AppleInsider.
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  • Reply 180 of 213
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    They need to get you a special section: Applebaum's Hour on AppleInsider.

    The Last Bite

    A special feature where our own Dick Applebaum clears up misconceptions and speaks his mind.
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