EU judge recommends review of Apple's advertised warranties

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  • Reply 21 of 39
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    sr2012 wrote: »
    AppleCare does not cover weak batteries. Only batteries that were deemed defective at the time in first went into your computer. RAM failure should be covered by statutory warranties, weird how the EU doesn't cover that. HDD understandable.

    You are wrong. Applecare does cover weak batteries.

    http://www.apple.com/batteries/replacements.html
    "During the plan’s coverage period, Apple will replace the battery if it drops below 50% of its original capacity."

    However, this covers only iPhones, iPads, and iPods. It does not cover notebooks.
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  • Reply 22 of 39
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    timmydax wrote: »
    Except if people don't ask for it, they will be charged for the repairs. Apple are charging for AppleCare which advertises that it offers more than call-centre support, which it does not.

    Yes it does. Unlike these laws it covers all non damage, no matter when it happened nd no where who you bought it from

    These laws aren't warranties so much as extended lemon laws. They only cover defects present at purchase. And outside of maybe two or three countries the customer has to prove it to get any relief.
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  • Reply 23 of 39
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    crowley wrote: »
    Apple getting called on dirty tactics, selling people things that they're entitled to by law.  Good.

    You need to check the laws because no they are not. They are selling something above and beyond what the law requires.

    As a consumer it is up to you to know your rights. No company, not even the all holy Apple has to teach you those laws. And in any cases it is up to you to invoke them, not for them to offer and if you don't because you didn't educate yourself then that's not their issue. After all these laws don't require the to cover all damage, just what they directly sold you damaged at the time they sold it to you. If you bought your iPhone from Dixons, for example, you can't invoke the laws at an Apple store, you have to go back to Dixons. And you have to say it was that way when you bought it and depending on the timing and UK law you might have to prove it or get nothing. But with AppleCare you can go in at 20 months with that non working phone that you bought at Dixons and so long as they can't prove you damaged it they will replace it. THAT is what you are buying and no law gives you that in the UK for sure as well as most of the EU (I believe Poland, Romania and the Czech Rep are the exceptions on the proof issue but you still go to the seller)
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  • Reply 24 of 39
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    charlituna wrote: »
    You need to check the laws because no they are not. They are selling something above and beyond what the law requires.

    Yes and no.

    While it is true that AppleCare is for something above and beyond what the law requires (you don't need to prove the product was defective and AppleCare also covers things and services that are not covered by the warranty), there is a good argument that Apple's sales practices are illegal. For example, there were claims that Apple's sales people were giving false information about what the warranty covered and/or the length of the warranty in order to sell more AppleCare contracts (at least in Italy). If that's the case, Apple needs to be forced to change their policies. There's no justification for lying to consumers.
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  • Reply 25 of 39
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    I believe this
    galaxytab wrote: »
    Dell will repair and replace the Product in accordance with the description of the service that the customer buys and the applicable law to protect the consumer.

    is their statement of 'compliance'

    But what I want to know is if they spell it out the way that everyone is demanding Apple must, does Dell offer a paid extended service etc. are they selling 'what you get under the law' like folks are accusing Apple. And if they are why is it getting no notice from these groups.
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  • Reply 26 of 39
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,675member
    charlituna wrote: »
    philboogie wrote: »
    Here we go. Again. I mean, it really isn't necessary. If something breaks down in the 2nd year, simply go back to the store and tell them you are entitled to the same warranty they gave during its 1st year. They will, and do, take that to heart and comply. There's really no point in requesting Apple to change their advertisement 'strategy'.

    Those laws only cover defects at time of purchase from the seller. And in many countries after the first 6-8 months the customer is the one that has to prove it was there.

    Whereas Apple covers anything at any time during the period no matter here you bought it so long as it was a legit authorized dealer (or a private party that bought it from an authorized source) and it isn't from obvious damage.

    Apple is only at fault if they refused someone with a legit claim that bought from them and there have been few to no claims of such being refused.

    That certainly is a valid point. People, take note of this reply
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  • Reply 27 of 39
    charlituna wrote: »
    Yes it does. Unlike these laws it covers all non damage, no matter when it happened nd no where who you bought it from
    These laws aren't warranties so much as extended lemon laws. They only cover defects present at purchase. And outside of maybe two or three countries the customer has to prove it to get any relief.

    Cheers for clearing this up. So it is normally provided by the retailer/carrier.

    I think I may be confused though. How can a device suffer a hardware failure if it wasn't either (a) present at time of purchase or (b) damage (not covered by either)? How can a customer prove this if there was no sign of failure before the hardware... well, failed?

    Thanks for your input.
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  • Reply 28 of 39


    To my understanding we are talking about three different warranties here:


         1) the legally required EU two-year warranty, which is of very limited scope and requires certain conditions to be met


         2) the standard Apple one-year warranty, which includes provisions not required by law


         3) Applecare extended two-year warranty, which provides the same coverage as the standard Apple warranty just for a longer time period


    The confusion is that people think that because Apple offers a value-added one-year warranty, that Apple have to provide two-years of this same warranty to satisfy EU requirements.  This is not the case, Apple only has to provide the required coverage for the two-year period, not the added features of an Apple warranty.  In other words, when you buy an Apple product in the EU, you are getting two warranties on your Apple product - the EU required coverage and the Apple standard warranty.  Applecare is just an extension of the standard warranty, so the people who buy it are actually getting added value.

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  • Reply 29 of 39
    timmydaxtimmydax Posts: 284member
    To my understanding we are talking about three different warranties here:
         1) the legally required EU two-year warranty, which is of very limited scope and requires certain conditions to be met
         2) the standard Apple one-year warranty, which includes provisions not required by law
         3) Applecare extended two-year warranty, which provides the same coverage as the standard Apple warranty just for a longer time period

    ...  Applecare is just an extension of the standard warranty, so the people who buy it are actually getting added value.

    So, just to be clear, can we outline what AppleCare offers that the EU standard warranty does not (apart from phone support)?
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  • Reply 30 of 39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post





    So, just to be clear, can we outline what AppleCare offers that the EU standard warranty does not (apart from phone support)?


    That would be tedious, but luckily Apple has done that for us.  Also I would assume -perhaps wrongly - that the EU coverage would not include software issues.


    http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/


     


    Summary of EU Statutory Warranty, the Apple One-Year Limited Warranty and the AppleCare Protection Plan























































     

    EU Consumer Law

    Apple One-Year Limited Warranty

    AppleCare Protection Plan

    Repair or replacement coverage for

    Defects present when customer takes delivery1

    Defects arising after customer takes delivery

    Defects arising after customer takes delivery

    Claim period

    2 years (minimum) from date of delivery2

    1 year from date of purchase

    3 years from date of purchase for Mac or Apple display

    2 years from date of purchase for Apple TV, iPad, iPhone or iPod

    Cost of coverage

    Provided at no additional cost

    Included at no additional cost

    Available for additional cost

    Who to contact to make a claim

    The seller3

    Apple telephone technical support, Apple Retail Store or Apple-Authorised Service Provider

    Apple telephone technical support, Apple Retail Store or Apple-Authorised Service Provider

    Included repair or replacement options

    Contact the seller for details

    Carry-in or postal service4

    Carry-in or postal service; express replacement service for iPad and iPhone; or onsite service for desktop computers4

    Overseas repair or replacement

    Contact the seller for details

    Yes5

    Yes5

    Telephone technical support

    None

    90 days from date of purchase

    3 years from date of purchase for Mac or Apple display

    2 years from date of purchase for Apple TV, iPad, iPhone or iPod
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  • Reply 31 of 39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post



    Here we go. Again. I mean, it really isn't necessary. If something breaks down in the 2nd year, simply go back to the store and tell them you are entitled to the same warranty they gave during its 1st year. They will, and do, take that to heart and comply. There's really no point in requesting Apple to change their advertisement 'strategy'.


    You're both right and wrong at the same time. Apple does need to advertise this simply because people for the most part have no clue. I was in a shop watching a guy buy Apple Care totally unaware that the did not need it for the first two years of his device life-cycle. The sales attendant didn't bother to tell him either. I did and it pissed the sales attendant off.

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  • Reply 32 of 39
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    You're both right and wrong at the same time. Apple does need to advertise this simply because people for the most part have no clue. I was in a shop watching a guy buy Apple Care totally unaware that the did not need it for the first two years of his device life-cycle. The sales attendant didn't bother to tell him either. I did and it pissed the sales attendant off.

    That's not entirely true. AppleCare covers some things that the manufacturer's warranty and EU Consumer law do not cover. So even if the device is covered under EU Consumer Law for 2 years, it might still be worth having AppleCare.

    I'm not defending any act of lying to the customer, but don't assume that 2 years of EU Consumer Law coverage means you don't need AppleCare. Similarly, don't assume that 1 year of Manufacturer's warranty means you don't need AppleCare. See the chart above.
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  • Reply 33 of 39
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am Andy View Post

    I think that Vivian doesn't really know what she's talking about.

    Looks more as she's paid by someone to fight against Apple.

    In the second year of common guarantee you must prove that the product already had a problem when you bought it.

    With Apple Care you just explain your problem.

    And if they can't fix it by phone you'll get a new one.

    Just try it with a Samsung or any other product or company.

    Apple Care is much much more than the standard guarantee.

     

    Not so. In Europe the customers contract is with the retailer, the retailer has a duty to supply goods "of merchantable quality" that are "fit for the purpose". In the UK this is judged by the court and a small claim action can be instituted for £10 ($16). The average life expectancy of consumer electronics as determined by the courts averages in excess of 30 months. Apple is far from the only company that tries to enforce the mythical one year warranty, it is the standard response from stores and call centers, referring to the supervisor or store manager is required to get the correct response. Of course is a product has been damaged, abused etc the retailer is not liable. A court will take numerous factors in to consideration, was it a premium priced product or a 'disposable' product, was it in a sale, was it discounted, how did the retailer advertise the product. The claimant will be questioned about its use, the retailer will be able to examine the goods and make their arguments. IMO a mandatory two year period is bad for all concerned, all goods are not equal, there is cheap shit out there, there are quality made goods too. Expecting a $200 Android tablet to last as well as an iPad is being at the minimum optimistic, it is precisely this kind of variable that a court can make a judgment on.

    I was always amazed at how in the US where the "customer is king" customers put up with stuff like having a product fail after a few months and have to deal with the manufacturer because the retailer claims it's not their responsibility to ensure the goods that they sell are fit for the advertised purpose.

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  • Reply 34 of 39
    vaelianvaelian Posts: 446member
    i am andy wrote: »
    I think that Vivian doesn't really know what she's talking about.

    I think YOU don't know what you're talking about. For reference, you are talking about Directive 99/44/EC, which I can pretty much tell that you haven't read, but don't worry.

    i am andy wrote: »
    ILooks more as she's paid by someone to fight against Apple.

    Do you have evidence of this? If not, then why are you posting it?

    i am andy wrote: »
    IIn the second year of common guarantee you must prove that the product already had a problem when you bought it.

    Citation?

    i am andy wrote: »
    IWith Apple Care you just explain your problem.

    Same with Directive 99/44/EC. The only requirement is that you report the problem no more than 2 months after detecting it, but I shouldn't be spoiling your humiliation by pointing out facts...

    i am andy wrote: »
    IAnd if they can't fix it by phone you'll get a new one.

    Exactly. that's what I'm entitled to.

    i am andy wrote: »
    IJust try it with a Samsung or any other product or company.

    I would win, since I know my rights and how to set these things in motion. In fact, I have filed complaints about Apple regarding this issue 4 months ago, when I first noticed their 1-year limited warranty announcements at their website when they are required to advertise two years.

    i am andy wrote: »
    IApple Care is much much more than the standard guarantee.

    Perhaps, but that doesn't mean people should be purposely deceived about the merits of their standard warranty rights.
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  • Reply 35 of 39
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,552member
    A month ago my 22 months old iPod Nano had its screen that didn't light up when turned on anymore. I went to the Apple Store in Paris and talked for 40 minutes with a genius that didn't want to replace my iPod, even though I had European law extracts with me that showed that I was right. I was going to sue to the tribunal of commerce, but I called Apple in Ireland first. The first operator said the same thing. I just repeated that it was European law. He put me on wait for ten minutes and put me through with his supervisor. The conversion went like this :
    - how can I help you?
    - the LCD on my iPod stopped working
    - ...... And ?
    - I want it replaced.
    - ......
    - ....?
    - checking.... (Long wait)... Ok
    And I got a new one. What I don't like is that they probably accepted just because they saw how much stuff I bought from them, and didn't want to lose a good customer. Had someone else called, they maybe would have said no, even if he was in his right. What's cool is that since they accepted once, they'll now have to accept for every product of mine in the future. I just wish they would just start respecting European law and stop making everybody lose so much time.
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  • Reply 36 of 39
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    clemynx wrote: »
    A month ago my 22 months old iPod Nano had its screen that didn't light up when turned on anymore. I went to the Apple Store in Paris and talked for 40 minutes with a genius that didn't want to replace my iPod, even though I had European law extracts with me that showed that I was right. I was going to sue to the tribunal of commerce, but I called Apple in Ireland first. The first operator said the same thing. I just repeated that it was European law. He put me on wait for ten minutes and put me through with his supervisor. The conversion went like this :
    - how can I help you?
    - the LCD on my iPod stopped working
    - ...... And ?
    - I want it replaced.
    - ......
    - ....?
    - checking.... (Long wait)... Ok
    And I got a new one. What I don't like is that they probably accepted just because they saw how much stuff I bought from them, and didn't want to lose a good customer. Had someone else called, they maybe would have said no, even if he was in his right. What's cool is that since they accepted once, they'll now have to accept for every product of mine in the future. I just wish they would just start respecting European law and stop making everybody lose so much time.

    As I understand the law, you are misrepresenting it - and were lucky to get a new iPod.

    My understanding of the law is that after the manufacturer's warranty runs out, but within the 2 year period, it is up to you to prove that the device was defective when delivered to you. That can't be easy for an iPod that you used for 22 months without difficulty.
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  • Reply 37 of 39
    vaelianvaelian Posts: 446member
    jragosta wrote: »
    As I understand the law, you are misrepresenting it - and were lucky to get a new iPod.

    My understanding of the law is that after the manufacturer's warranty runs out, but within the 2 year period, it is up to you to prove that the device was defective when delivered to you. That can't be easy for an iPod that you used for 22 months without difficulty.

    As a self proclaimed critical thinker, you should have already figured that the burden of proof lies on Apple's shoulders, not the customer's, because the customer has no way to determine that the product wasn't damaged due to lack of conformity at the time of purchase without disassembling it (thus potentially voiding the warranty).
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  • Reply 38 of 39
    sr2012sr2012 Posts: 896member
    I've never owned a Mac yet, but I've had my iPhone 4S replaced in July because the battery was lasting less than 50% the advertised length. That's their stated policy.

    Yup, that's a ~defective~ battery not a ~weak~ battery. A weak battery is anything lasting more than 50%, defective is less than 50% or whatever the policy is. I was just clarifying the defective vs weak thing for Apple stuff.
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  • Reply 39 of 39
    sr2012sr2012 Posts: 896member
    jragosta wrote: »
    You are wrong. Applecare does cover weak batteries.
    http://www.apple.com/batteries/replacements.html
    "During the plan’s coverage period, Apple will replace the battery if it drops below 50% of its original capacity."
    However, this covers only iPhones, iPads, and iPods. It does not cover notebooks.

    That's why I say it covers ~defective~ batteries, which is defined as above by Apple. A "weak" battery is not covered if it is not below 50% of its original capacity etc.

    So the question is, for EU etc statutory warranties, what is their battery threshold?
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