1) The iPad isn't a "proper computer" either in the eyes of many folks you like to laugh at so having "proper computer" anywhere in the discussion is stupid.
Confirmed for not having read my post at all.
2) You can touch type with ten fingers on the mini as well as you can on the full sized.
That's physically impossible, but believe what you will.
I suppose children, but what seven year old knows how to touch-type?
That's physically impossible, but believe what you will.
I suppose children, but what seven year old knows how to touch-type?
Your post was asinine and yes I read it. Two finger typing on an iPad Mini is every bit as legitimate as touch typing on a regular iPad if the speed and error rates are comparable.
iPad record beaten (unofficially) on the iPhone using 2 thumbs. The odds are that 2 thumb typing on the iPad mini is comparable in speed to the iPhone and even if slower on par with the typing speed on the full iPad.
You obviously didn't click on my link because you'd have noted that those are all hardware keyboard for the iPad Mini...which is actually the only way to touch type (i.e. not looking at the keyboard) on either the iPad or iPad mini.
And given that you can't rest your fingers on the iPad anyway the size difference is less of a hindrance on the iPad mini for 10 finger typing than you would imagine since you have to look at the keyboard anyway and the key sizes are adequate targets.
You didn't have a point, you had another snide remark about the mini that I refuted.
iPad mini. Point: portability (or so I'm yelled at about). Defeat of point: carrying a keyboard with it.
iPad. Point: ruling the world*, also portability. Defeat of point: also carrying a keyboard with it, which you don't actually have to do.
I very much had a point.
Yes. Touch typing requires using touch rather than sight. For that you need to be able to tell where the keys are without looking.
This seems to be a really hard concept for you to comprehend, despite being able to define what it means.
I. can touch-type. with ten fingers. on my iPad. I could do it about two weeks after its launch, and that's probably in part aided by having had an iPhone since its launch.
*"Make the screen 5" by 8" and you'll rule the world. -Alan Kay
iPad mini. Point: portability (or so I'm yelled at about). Defeat of point: carrying a keyboard with it.
iPad. Point: ruling the world*, also portability. Defeat of point: also carrying a keyboard with it, which you don't actually have to do.
I very much had a point.
This seems to be a really hard concept for you to comprehend, despite being able to define what it means.
I. can touch-type. with ten fingers. on my iPad. I could do it about two weeks after its launch, and that's probably in part aided by having had an iPhone since its launch.
[SIZE=11px]*"Make the screen 5" by 8" and you'll rule the world. -[/SIZE]<span style="font-size:11px;line-height:13px;">Alan Kay</span>
Well, thanks for bringing back that Alan Kay quote, but does it not apply to the 8-inch iPad mini, rather than the 10-inch original?
Edit: I just measured the OG iPad screen. 5 7/8 by 7 3/4 inches. Close enough to apply to Kay's prediction for world domination. But I still think the little one will end up selling more sometime in the future.
But will it rule the world? Probably no more determinable than whether paperbacks were more influential than hardcovers. The point is that the portable screen connected to the microprocessor will rule the world. (I don't know whether Kay foresaw the Internet.)
Edit 2: He does mention connection to something like the ARPA net, as well as libraries and file-downloading vending machines, for his Dynabook: http://www.mprove.de/diplom/gui/Kay72a.pdf
I've no doubt iPad mini is selling faster than Kindle. But the 28% v. 19% argument is either a statistical sleight of hand or ignorance. You cannot compare demographics merely by using two random growth rates.
iPad mini. Point: portability (or so I'm yelled at about). Defeat of point: carrying a keyboard with it.
iPad. Point: ruling the world*, also portability. Defeat of point: also carrying a keyboard with it, which you don't actually have to do.
I very much had a point.
*"Make the screen 5" by 8" and you'll rule the world. -Alan Kay
iPad mini + keyboard is still smaller than the ipad 4.
You can type with both hands on the iPad Mini:
(starting at 30 secs)
It is just thumb typing is faster.
Regarding Alan Kay's quote it is truncated and lacks context:
“When Steve showed me the iPhone at its introduction a few years ago and asked me if ‘it was good enough to criticize,’ which is what I had said about the Mac in 1984, I held up my Moleskine notebook and said ‘make the screen at least 5"x8" and you will rule the world,’ Kay said
It's not quite the exact match as implied but damned close. They make bigger (extra large) and smaller moleskins (pocket sized) but folks largely prefer the classic size which is a comfortable balance between portability and useful size.
Quote:
This seems to be a really hard concept for you to comprehend, despite being able to define what it means.
I. can touch-type. with ten fingers. on my iPad. I could do it about two weeks after its launch, and that's probably in part aided by having had an iPhone since its launch.
If you really hate thumb typing then after a couple weeks "touch typing" I'm sure your speed and accuracy will be pretty good on the mini as well.
What you wrote is both factually wrong (as in what you said can't be done in fact can be done) and pedantically wrong (your definition of touch typing itself is wrong). So you still have no point and what you wrote is still simply a snide comment where everyone understood what you meant and where it was still stupid and incorrect.
iPad mini + keyboard is still smaller than the ipad 4.
How?
Regarding Alan Kay's quote you truncated it:
“When Steve showed me the iPhone at its introduction a few years ago and asked me if ‘it was good enough to criticize,’ which is what I had said about the Mac in 1984, I held up my Moleskine notebook and said ‘make the screen at least 5"x8" and you will rule the world,’ Kay said
Yeah, I shortened it to the part that mattered. I don't see what the rest adds. Seems it detracts from your point.
An iPad Mini is 5.3" x 7.87".
And this means what? Please read the Alan Kay comment again and explain how what you have said doesn't detract from YOUR point.
…pedantically wrong (your definition of touch typing itself is wrong).
I used your definition. So either your definition is wrong or you have no argument and are flip-flopping just to be on whatever side isn't mine.
Yeah, I shortened it to the part that mattered. I don't see what the rest adds. Seems it detracts from your point.
And this means what? Please read the Alan Kay comment again and explain how what you have said doesn't detract from YOUR point.
Given that Alan Kay held up a Moleskine notebook as an example of what he meant and the mini is closest in size then the iPad mini applies as much, if not more (IMHO more), than the original iPad to that comment. This should be obvious.
The match is so close as not to be an accident. You can make an iPad Mini case out of the Moleskine notebook.
I'll wait for an official Moleskine case with an insert for actual paper...the iPad one is just too large and the iPhone one makes it more awkward to use as a phone. An iPad mini moleskine case should be juuust right.
On the other hand a keyboard case might be better since I can just draw on the iPad mini and I can type a hell of a lot faster than I can write. And a lot more neatly too. A physical keyboard is typically a must for typing large amounts of text quickly even if it is most distracting than writing on paper.
Quote:
I used your definition. So either your definition is wrong or you have no argument and are flip-flopping just to be on whatever side isn't mine.
Really, you can type purely by touch (hence the name "touch typing") without looking at your iPad while doing so? With no physical reference points to where your fingers are, especially given that you can't lay your fingers down but must hover above the screen. Bullshit.
You did NOT use my definition. Your definition is to be able to use 10 fingers which can also be done on the mini. Less comfortably, yes, but can be done. But on neither is actual touch typing really possible because you look at the keyboard to make sure your fingers are hitting the desired keys.
Given that Alan Kay held up a Moleskine notebook as an example of what he meant and the mini is closest in size then the iPad mini applies as much, if not more (IMHO more), than the original iPad to that comment. This should be obvious.
Hmm. So where he said "make the screen" instead of saying "make the device," he meant "make the device."
Really, you can type purely by touch (hence the name "touch typing") without looking at your iPad while doing so? With no physical reference points to where your fingers are, especially given that you can't lay your fingers down but must hover above the screen.
This seems to be really, really difficult for you to understand, for some reason. YES. This is exactly the concept that I am trying to pass on to you.
I'd really like to know why you can't comprehend this.
Bullshit.
lol, this is gonna be spectacular. Give me an hour or so to get a video up on my YouTube account.
You did NOT use my definition. Your definition is to be able to use 10 fingers which can also be done on the mini.
Mmm, no. My definition is to not have to look at my fingers to type, and since that's the definition of the phrase "touch typing", I used the phrase "touch typing" earlier.
lol, this is gonna be spectacular. Give me an hour or so to get a video up on my YouTube account.
Go for it. Unlike some folks around here when I'm wrong I readily admit it.
However, even if you can manage to type a few words without looking I bet you can do that on the mini as well.
Edit: I've been out of research for the last few years and not following touch research as closely. However, here's the last thing I saw from earlier this year. While the discussion is regarding making better keyboards if you go to 22:30 you see that with no visible keyboard (i.e. no keyboard to see but with looking at the screen, hands and asterisk feedback) the accuracy is 70.5. Looking at a visible keyboard the accuracy increases to 93%.
Go for it. Unlike some folks around here when I'm wrong I readily admit it.
And if you can recommend me a more… accurate method of testing, feel free and I'll do it that way instead. I just did what I figured would be easiest and quickest to set up and go.
You'll see what I mean once the video's loaded.
And of course I screwed up the very first time. I typed far more accurately…
…but I forgot to check the camera framing with the box in the way. ????
And if you can recommend me a more… accurate method of testing, feel free and I'll do it that way instead. I just did what I figured would be easiest and quickest to set up and go.
You'll see what I mean once the video's loaded.
They don't work for me so I'll just take your word for it.
Typically we used "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" somewhere in our testing since it covers all the letters. You can also hit one of the various touch typing test sites around for examples. Evidently I type around 62 wpm...which is faster than I thought but not very fast.
Comments
Originally Posted by nht
1) The iPad isn't a "proper computer" either in the eyes of many folks you like to laugh at so having "proper computer" anywhere in the discussion is stupid.
Confirmed for not having read my post at all.
2) You can touch type with ten fingers on the mini as well as you can on the full sized.
That's physically impossible, but believe what you will.
I suppose children, but what seven year old knows how to touch-type?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Confirmed for not having read my post at all.
That's physically impossible, but believe what you will.
I suppose children, but what seven year old knows how to touch-type?
Your post was asinine and yes I read it. Two finger typing on an iPad Mini is every bit as legitimate as touch typing on a regular iPad if the speed and error rates are comparable.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-27076_3-20077031-248/guinness-world-record-for-ipad-typing-broken/
iPad record beaten (unofficially) on the iPhone using 2 thumbs. The odds are that 2 thumb typing on the iPad mini is comparable in speed to the iPhone and even if slower on par with the typing speed on the full iPad.
You obviously didn't click on my link because you'd have noted that those are all hardware keyboard for the iPad Mini...which is actually the only way to touch type (i.e. not looking at the keyboard) on either the iPad or iPad mini.
And given that you can't rest your fingers on the iPad anyway the size difference is less of a hindrance on the iPad mini for 10 finger typing than you would imagine since you have to look at the keyboard anyway and the key sizes are adequate targets.
Originally Posted by nht
You obviously didn't click on my link because you'd have noted that those are all hardware keyboard for the iPad Mini...
Yes, I'm waiting for a valid response to my point, is all.
which is actually the only way to touch type (i.e. not looking at the keyboard) on either the iPad or iPad mini.
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Yes, I'm waiting for a valid response to my point, is all.
You didn't have a point, you had another snide remark about the mini that I refuted.
Quote:
No.
Yes. Touch typing requires using touch rather than sight. For that you need to be able to tell where the keys are without looking.
Originally Posted by nht
You didn't have a point, you had another snide remark about the mini that I refuted.
iPad mini. Point: portability (or so I'm yelled at about). Defeat of point: carrying a keyboard with it.
iPad. Point: ruling the world*, also portability. Defeat of point: also carrying a keyboard with it, which you don't actually have to do.
I very much had a point.
Yes. Touch typing requires using touch rather than sight. For that you need to be able to tell where the keys are without looking.
This seems to be a really hard concept for you to comprehend, despite being able to define what it means.
I. can touch-type. with ten fingers. on my iPad. I could do it about two weeks after its launch, and that's probably in part aided by having had an iPhone since its launch.
*"Make the screen 5" by 8" and you'll rule the world. -Alan Kay
Well, thanks for bringing back that Alan Kay quote, but does it not apply to the 8-inch iPad mini, rather than the 10-inch original?
Edit: I just measured the OG iPad screen. 5 7/8 by 7 3/4 inches. Close enough to apply to Kay's prediction for world domination. But I still think the little one will end up selling more sometime in the future.
But will it rule the world? Probably no more determinable than whether paperbacks were more influential than hardcovers. The point is that the portable screen connected to the microprocessor will rule the world. (I don't know whether Kay foresaw the Internet.)
Edit 2: He does mention connection to something like the ARPA net, as well as libraries and file-downloading vending machines, for his Dynabook:
http://www.mprove.de/diplom/gui/Kay72a.pdf
Originally Posted by Flaneur
Well, thanks for bringing back that Alan Kay quote, but does it not apply to the 8-inch iPad mini, rather than the 10-inch original?
Screens are measured diagonally. Alan's doing what few do and saying the dimensions.
That was too fast, or I was too slow with my edit above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
iPad mini. Point: portability (or so I'm yelled at about). Defeat of point: carrying a keyboard with it.
iPad. Point: ruling the world*, also portability. Defeat of point: also carrying a keyboard with it, which you don't actually have to do.
I very much had a point.
*"Make the screen 5" by 8" and you'll rule the world. -Alan Kay
iPad mini + keyboard is still smaller than the ipad 4.
You can type with both hands on the iPad Mini:
It is just thumb typing is faster.
Regarding Alan Kay's quote it is truncated and lacks context:
“When Steve showed me the iPhone at its introduction a few years ago and asked me if ‘it was good enough to criticize,’ which is what I had said about the Mac in 1984, I held up my Moleskine notebook and said ‘make the screen at least 5"x8" and you will rule the world,’ Kay said
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/alan-kay-steve-jobs-ipad-iphone,10209.html
In context a regular moleskin notebook is 5" x 8.5". An iPad Mini is 5.3" x 7.87".
A picture is worth a thousand snide comments:
"iPad mini is a Moleskine, down to the exact corner radius. It’s the little things. http://t.co/NDUwppV2"
It's not quite the exact match as implied but damned close. They make bigger (extra large) and smaller moleskins (pocket sized) but folks largely prefer the classic size which is a comfortable balance between portability and useful size.
Quote:
This seems to be a really hard concept for you to comprehend, despite being able to define what it means.
I. can touch-type. with ten fingers. on my iPad. I could do it about two weeks after its launch, and that's probably in part aided by having had an iPhone since its launch.
If you really hate thumb typing then after a couple weeks "touch typing" I'm sure your speed and accuracy will be pretty good on the mini as well.
What you wrote is both factually wrong (as in what you said can't be done in fact can be done) and pedantically wrong (your definition of touch typing itself is wrong). So you still have no point and what you wrote is still simply a snide comment where everyone understood what you meant and where it was still stupid and incorrect.
Originally Posted by nht
iPad mini + keyboard is still smaller than the ipad 4.
How?
Regarding Alan Kay's quote you truncated it:
“When Steve showed me the iPhone at its introduction a few years ago and asked me if ‘it was good enough to criticize,’ which is what I had said about the Mac in 1984, I held up my Moleskine notebook and said ‘make the screen at least 5"x8" and you will rule the world,’ Kay said
Yeah, I shortened it to the part that mattered. I don't see what the rest adds. Seems it detracts from your point.
An iPad Mini is 5.3" x 7.87".
And this means what? Please read the Alan Kay comment again and explain how what you have said doesn't detract from YOUR point.
…pedantically wrong (your definition of touch typing itself is wrong).
I used your definition. So either your definition is wrong or you have no argument and are flip-flopping just to be on whatever side isn't mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Yeah, I shortened it to the part that mattered. I don't see what the rest adds. Seems it detracts from your point.
And this means what? Please read the Alan Kay comment again and explain how what you have said doesn't detract from YOUR point.
Given that Alan Kay held up a Moleskine notebook as an example of what he meant and the mini is closest in size then the iPad mini applies as much, if not more (IMHO more), than the original iPad to that comment. This should be obvious.
The match is so close as not to be an accident. You can make an iPad Mini case out of the Moleskine notebook.
http://www.byjohnchandler.com/2012/12/12/the-worlds-niftiest-ipad-mini-case/
I'll wait for an official Moleskine case with an insert for actual paper...the iPad one is just too large and the iPhone one makes it more awkward to use as a phone. An iPad mini moleskine case should be juuust right.
On the other hand a keyboard case might be better since I can just draw on the iPad mini and I can type a hell of a lot faster than I can write. And a lot more neatly too. A physical keyboard is typically a must for typing large amounts of text quickly even if it is most distracting than writing on paper.
Quote:
I used your definition. So either your definition is wrong or you have no argument and are flip-flopping just to be on whatever side isn't mine.
Really, you can type purely by touch (hence the name "touch typing") without looking at your iPad while doing so? With no physical reference points to where your fingers are, especially given that you can't lay your fingers down but must hover above the screen. Bullshit.
You did NOT use my definition. Your definition is to be able to use 10 fingers which can also be done on the mini. Less comfortably, yes, but can be done. But on neither is actual touch typing really possible because you look at the keyboard to make sure your fingers are hitting the desired keys.
Originally Posted by nht
Given that Alan Kay held up a Moleskine notebook as an example of what he meant and the mini is closest in size then the iPad mini applies as much, if not more (IMHO more), than the original iPad to that comment. This should be obvious.
Hmm. So where he said "make the screen" instead of saying "make the device," he meant "make the device."
Really, you can type purely by touch (hence the name "touch typing") without looking at your iPad while doing so? With no physical reference points to where your fingers are, especially given that you can't lay your fingers down but must hover above the screen.
This seems to be really, really difficult for you to understand, for some reason. YES. This is exactly the concept that I am trying to pass on to you.
I'd really like to know why you can't comprehend this.
Bullshit.
lol, this is gonna be spectacular. Give me an hour or so to get a video up on my YouTube account.
You did NOT use my definition. Your definition is to be able to use 10 fingers which can also be done on the mini.
Mmm, no. My definition is to not have to look at my fingers to type, and since that's the definition of the phrase "touch typing", I used the phrase "touch typing" earlier.
EDIT: Uploading. Will be here when done.
For reference, the control text:
This is a test to prove that I can touch type on my iPad.
Note that there are no Bluetooth or Wi-Fi icons in the Menu Bar.
This is to prove that there is neither an external keyboard nor an external screen connected to the iPad.
This is being shot with a camera on one of those flexible tripods. Sorry for the quality.
The box is just a grapefruit box lid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
lol, this is gonna be spectacular. Give me an hour or so to get a video up on my YouTube account.
Go for it. Unlike some folks around here when I'm wrong I readily admit it.
However, even if you can manage to type a few words without looking I bet you can do that on the mini as well.
Edit: I've been out of research for the last few years and not following touch research as closely. However, here's the last thing I saw from earlier this year. While the discussion is regarding making better keyboards if you go to 22:30 you see that with no visible keyboard (i.e. no keyboard to see but with looking at the screen, hands and asterisk feedback) the accuracy is 70.5. Looking at a visible keyboard the accuracy increases to 93%.
http://research.microsoft.com/apps/video/default.aspx?id=163613
MSR publishes a lot more than Apple does. I believe this is the related paper:
http://faculty.washington.edu/wobbrock/pubs/chi-11.02.pdf
Originally Posted by nht
Go for it. Unlike some folks around here when I'm wrong I readily admit it.
And if you can recommend me a more… accurate method of testing, feel free and I'll do it that way instead. I just did what I figured would be easiest and quickest to set up and go.
You'll see what I mean once the video's loaded.
And of course I screwed up the very first time. I typed far more accurately…
…but I forgot to check the camera framing with the box in the way. ????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
And if you can recommend me a more… accurate method of testing, feel free and I'll do it that way instead. I just did what I figured would be easiest and quickest to set up and go.
You'll see what I mean once the video's loaded.
They don't work for me so I'll just take your word for it.
Typically we used "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" somewhere in our testing since it covers all the letters. You can also hit one of the various touch typing test sites around for examples. Evidently I type around 62 wpm...which is faster than I thought but not very fast.