I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone.
Might I suggest a Smart Mobile OS instead of a glorified smartphone? Due to the fact that if it was not for iOS, smartphones, nor tables, would look anything like they do today. Again the reason people claim iPad is a glorified smartphone is only because of what smartphones are capable of today only because of what iOS has brought to the table.
If the iPad was released first, then the iPhone would only be a shrunk down version of a tablet.
I have said it many times before and will say it over and over again. The reason why iPad is so popular is because Apple understands people. They understand that most everyone does not want their desktop in the palm of their hands, but rather, certain functions available everywhere they go. I don't need Adobe Illustrator on my iPad as I don't plan on doing that level of work on a tablet. I don't plan on running Final Cut on my iPad for the same reasons. I can't imagine doing all my banking on a small touchscreen. If I need to do that level of work, I want a keyboard and a good size screen.
When I am out, and don't want the weight of a notebook, then I also don't plan on doing the level of work requiring a notebook. M$, and their followers, just refuse to understand that, and that is why M$ products continue to fail.
I think one day technology will catch up and we'll see fuller desktop experiences on light weight tablets like the iPad.
The Surface Pro with Windows 8 is going to weigh more than some laptops and be pretty thick and chunky.
That's why we don't yet see a desktop class OS on a lightweight tablet because currently it just isn't feasible.
True, but this is already starting to happen. Note how you get to edit the same Numbers spreadsheet or Pages document on both the iPad and a Mac? It's not perfect and there are still some kinks, but it's pretty darn close! So, the desire to make tablets as productive as laptops/desktops is there. Slowly, it's getting to the point where you can use any machine to accomplish the same goal. Now, running the actual OS may be a different story, but "it's the apps, stupid!" (not calling you stupid, you know, right? )
I think one day technology will catch up and we'll see fuller desktop experiences on light weight tablets like the iPad.
The Surface Pro with Windows 8 is going to weigh more than some laptops and be pretty thick and chunky.
That's why we don't yet see a desktop class OS on a lightweight tablet because currently it just isn't feasible.
I think the screen size of tablets will always be a limiting factor to give a full desktop experience. The paradigm of a tablet experience shouldn't really be desktop eccentric anymore. I mean apps should eventually be as complex as desktop tablets but the manipulation, UI, functional aesthetics and UX needs to be totally rethought for a touch screen tablet just how the iPad has apps written from the ground up. For Microsoft to still keep the traditional desktop in Windows RT was a really backwards and useless move. Personally I think they should have called the OS 'Surface OS' and even their line of Phones and 'Surface Phone' to differentiate an entirely product class.
Because MS is run by a CLOWN, and the board doesn't care.
How true! Nothing like the "blue screen of death" right during the demo (ok, not the actual blue screen, but it froze just the same). And my 12-year old still can't get over the "developers, developers, developers" psychotic chant... Priceless!
Might I suggest a Smart Mobile OS instead of a glorified smartphone? Due to the fact that if it was not for iOS, smartphones, nor tables, would look anything like they do today. Again the reason people claim iPad is a glorified smartphone is only because of what smartphones are capable of today only because of what iOS has brought to the table.
If the iPad was released first, then the iPhone would only be a shrunk down version of a tablet.
I have said it many times before and will say it over and over again. The reason why iPad is so popular is because Apple understands people. They understand that most everyone does not want their desktop in the palm of their hands, but rather, certain functions available everywhere they go. I don't need Adobe Illustrator on my iPad as I don't plan on doing that level of work on a tablet. I don't plan on running Final Cut on my iPad for the same reasons. I can't imagine doing all my banking on a small touchscreen. If I need to do that level of work, I want a keyboard and a good size screen.
When I am out, and don't want the weight of a notebook, then I also don't plan on doing the level of work requiring a notebook. M$, and their followers, just refuse to understand that, and that is why M$ products continue to fail.
Good point. Apple even said that at the original iPad announcement... a device that fits between your smartphone and laptop.
Microsoft, on the other hand, is trying to combine the tablet and laptop into one device with the Surface Pro. It sounds good in theory... but your old desktop programs don't quite work the same using touch as the primary interface... and 11.6" is a little small to be your primary display.
Sure... you can use the tiny trackpad on the keyboard cover... or hook up an external monitor when you're at your desk.
But why not just keep the 15" laptop you've been using? That's where the idea of the Surface Pro falls apart for me.
Do we think companies will start deploying 11.6" Surface Pros instead of traditional laptops? Do employees want that?
Again... it sounds good... carrying one device instead of a laptop and iPad. But sometimes convergence isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I am currently on a business trip in China, I have been in Shenzhen (yup where they make everything for the world) for 3 weeks now. Talking to over 100 factories owner. They all make iPhone accessories.
Let me tell you what I see with my own eyes
A. Chinese people don't want cheap iPhone. Those who want cheap iPhone can't even afford those 999 yuan cheapo knock-off android phone (So even the cheap in Apple standard is a month salary for them). And everyone who rush off to buy iPhone from Hong Kong (they released there earlier than in China) don't care about the price tag. Because these are the people who would queue up at Chanel (I have photos!!!) and drop 100,000 yuan a day for couple handbags. They don't want ANYONE to have an iPhone - apart from them.
B. Accessories makers don't want cheap iPhone - they hate samsung and motorola (and many other cheapo phone makers) - because their phone is hard to make money off. There is literally a few (yup no more than 10) models for Samsung phone accessories. But iPhone accessories? Fill up 3 giant mall with literally thousands of shops. They all thankful to Apple release strategy. Make their life so much easier.
C. China Mobile is the worst mobile company in the world. I bought one of their Pay as you go phone card earlier this year (this is the second time I am in China in 9 months). I start getting calls from Pin An insurance (another state own giant). I ask them how they get my number and they said - my phone record indicated that I am their prime customer candidate, what ? Phone record? how did you get it? they just hang up.
D. China Mobile is huge - over 700 million customers BUT 95% of those customer are using crapping keypad phone (Farmer who don't spend more than 10 yuan a month). Number sometime means very little, unless you can really filter it correctly. On the other hand, just one percent of their customers buy iPhone (its happening right now) that is 7 million hand set sale for Apple. And you can get iPhone 4 for around $290 here (contract free!) and even cheaper in Hong Kong. Plenty of people I know finally dumping their Android crap and buy a 4 or 4S instead.
That's it for now. My next stop will be the capital (I actually stop over in Beijing but no time to walk around). Beijing and Shanghai is the true indication of what the big trend is happening in China. When I was in Shanghai earlier this year. Everywhere I go (especially underground) all I see is iPhone. Shenzhen is mixture. Surprisingly I see more S3 in Hong Kong. I think there is a lot todo with Samsung aggressive shop present in the Southern China.
Teen agers don't exactly know everything, they certainly don't run IT staff for corporations do they? They just have XBox mentality, because the Teens that like Surface are XBox users, so they are already used to the simple Surface GUI.
I think Microsoft is above all the victim of poor technical craftsmanship. They never were able to create a software architecture that was robust under change. The fact that the bad architecture sold so well added to that problem. But the problem they face comes from a combination of two things:
Not focusing on User Experience as a driver.
Being very weak on architecture and unwilling to disrupt their own cash cow to make it better
This has always been so. Gates at Microsoft was a brilliant business strategist but a mediocre technologist and had no feeling for user experience at all.
Apple, on the other hand, has worked hard since Jobs returned at building a basic software architecture and they are not afraid to work on the fundamentals. I found it always ironical that Apple was being chastised for being 'just marketing'. At Apple with Jobs at the helm, the products (being engineered for user experience) created a fanatical following that could be exploited by Apple. At Apple, the product drives marketing, at Microsoft, marketing drives the products (remember Cairo?). Because of the brilliant business strategies by Gates (which, admitted, turned into illegal practices in the end), they created a monopoly. The move to mobile and especially to multi-touch disrupted their model.
I expect Microsoft to be around very long, based on the fact that many of their business systems (Exchange, Office (especially Excel), SharePoint, Active Directory) are deeply embedded in medium to large business.
This article is missing important information, because Samsung already sells "pc tablets", which have a weight similar to an iPad, but with specs and price closer to the MacBook Air, and runs a full version of Windows 8. It's true you don't target the same audience at such price, but I believe that's the near future of mobile computing: Cheap devices with limited OSs (Android, iOS), and more expensive ones running complete operating systems (OSX, Linux, Windows) at a price similar to a MacBook Air.
Just a clarification about my last post: I was talking about the Samsung Ativ Pro. I certainly see no market for a Windows RT device when you have the Ativ Pro, which runs Windows 8.
I'd like a touch version of OSX running on a keyboard-less MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it will happen, because I see Apple trusts iOS concepts more than OSX concepts, and if we ever see a touch OSX, it will be iOS
I think this is the right move by Samsung. Intel are making good progress reducing the power requirements of x86. The non-RT tablets will be *the* MS tablet very soon.
Teen agers don't exactly know everything, they certainly don't run IT staff for corporations do they? They just have XBox mentality, because the Teens that like Surface are XBox users, so they are already used to the simple Surface GUI.
I disagree with the comments about teenagers. If it were really true that teenagers were abandoning Apple products and found Windows RT to be superior, that would be a very important piece of information - and would be very bad news for Apple. Teenagers already drive billions of dollars of electronics spending and will be in positions where they drive more in not too many years.
I just don't believe it. Some no-name group with no history of successful predictions of this type (and their one public pronouncement turned out to be wrong) says Apple is Doomed. Let's just say that without knowing how they reached this conclusion and who is paying them, it would be wise to question their conclusions.
Whatever the intent or design philosophy, the problem with Microsoft is always the execution.
They could do so many things. They could have just get their backyard cleaned up first. i.e., Streamline, simplify, improve windows 8 to the point that it will be a pleasant experience for the millions of customers to own, maintain and use a windows PC. This would at least slow the defection from Windows PC to IPAD.
If Microsoft wants to create a touch-based OS, the whole OS UI should be touch-based friendly. No..they just created a half-hearted overlay and people discovered everything behind the overlay is still the same old UI which is not touch friendly.
Looks like Microsoft decided to get into the tablet market really late and rush themselves by releasing a half-baked OS.
I both agree and disagree. I don't think the traditional Windows UI necessarily dooms a tablet to failure, much to the contrary, I think if you're vastly exceeding the cost of a full-on notebook, the full capabilities of Windows (the full desktop and the ability to run all you're x86 applications) is very important. I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone. Which is why, despite some of their decisions, I think Microsoft is on the right track with Windows 8 - provide a tablet friendly UI for basic and on-the-go tasks, and the full desktop for when you need to be productive with the "real" applications you need to use. I know there's some overlap between "apps" and traditional "applications", but there's no denying that when real work needs to be done, there's no replacement for full desktop applications.
Clearly what's dooming Windows RT is that it's essentially nearly all the cost of a full Windows Pro system with none of the benefits - unlike iOS or Android tablets, the available app selection is extremely limited and limiting. So you don't have access to your traditional applications, you don't have access to much in the way of apps, and the whole Metro UI is essentially barely out of beta status.
On the other hand, give it a generation or two, and I think Windows RT will be gone and Windows Pro will make a very compelling OS for truly dual-purpose tablets - a touch friendly UI when it's used as a tablet, drop it into a dock and you have a full desktop OS for when you need those capabilities.
Provided Microsoft's brand survives those years. That's far from obvious given how pervasive Android+iPad are.
Whatever the intent or design philosophy, the problem with Microsoft is always the execution.
They could do so many things. They could have just get their backyard cleaned up first. i.e., Streamline, simplify, improve windows 8 to the point that it will be a pleasant experience for the millions of customers to own, maintain and use a windows PC. This would at least slow the defection from Windows PC to IPAD.
This did this once - with Windows XP (I don't count Windows 95 because too much of it was simply built on top of earlier versions). With XP (and the NT it was based upon), they essentially started from scratch and built a new system from the ground up. It took longer than they probably expected for it to become mainstream, but when you look at its longevity, it was clearly one of their most successful products ever. Unfortunately, they didn't go far enough. XP isn't modular enough (too many things can affect other things) and as they've piled more crap on top of it, it has become less viable.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure they have the time to do that again, at least as far as RT is concerned. Throwing out the whole mess and starting with a clean sheet of paper as Apple did with OS X would take years (just as it took Apple years to get to the point where the platform was stable and efficient enough to spin off iOS).
I'd like a touch version of OSX running on a keyboard-less MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it will happen, because I see Apple trusts iOS concepts more than OSX concepts, and if we ever see a touch OSX, it will be iOS
Apple doesn't believe that, in the future, cars and airplanes will eventually become the same thing.
...
C. China Mobile is the worst mobile company in the world. I bought one of their Pay as you go phone card earlier this year (this is the second time I am in China in 9 months). I start getting calls from Pin An insurance (another state own giant). I ask them how they get my number and they said - my phone record indicated that I am their prime customer candidate, what ? Phone record? how did you get it? they just hang up.
...
I'll bet China Mobile's desire to do things like this is the biggest obstacle to a deal with Apple.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell
I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone.
Might I suggest a Smart Mobile OS instead of a glorified smartphone? Due to the fact that if it was not for iOS, smartphones, nor tables, would look anything like they do today. Again the reason people claim iPad is a glorified smartphone is only because of what smartphones are capable of today only because of what iOS has brought to the table.
If the iPad was released first, then the iPhone would only be a shrunk down version of a tablet.
I have said it many times before and will say it over and over again. The reason why iPad is so popular is because Apple understands people. They understand that most everyone does not want their desktop in the palm of their hands, but rather, certain functions available everywhere they go. I don't need Adobe Illustrator on my iPad as I don't plan on doing that level of work on a tablet. I don't plan on running Final Cut on my iPad for the same reasons. I can't imagine doing all my banking on a small touchscreen. If I need to do that level of work, I want a keyboard and a good size screen.
When I am out, and don't want the weight of a notebook, then I also don't plan on doing the level of work requiring a notebook. M$, and their followers, just refuse to understand that, and that is why M$ products continue to fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook
I think one day technology will catch up and we'll see fuller desktop experiences on light weight tablets like the iPad.
The Surface Pro with Windows 8 is going to weigh more than some laptops and be pretty thick and chunky.
That's why we don't yet see a desktop class OS on a lightweight tablet because currently it just isn't feasible.
True, but this is already starting to happen. Note how you get to edit the same Numbers spreadsheet or Pages document on both the iPad and a Mac? It's not perfect and there are still some kinks, but it's pretty darn close! So, the desire to make tablets as productive as laptops/desktops is there. Slowly, it's getting to the point where you can use any machine to accomplish the same goal. Now, running the actual OS may be a different story, but "it's the apps, stupid!" (not calling you stupid, you know, right?
I think the screen size of tablets will always be a limiting factor to give a full desktop experience. The paradigm of a tablet experience shouldn't really be desktop eccentric anymore. I mean apps should eventually be as complex as desktop tablets but the manipulation, UI, functional aesthetics and UX needs to be totally rethought for a touch screen tablet just how the iPad has apps written from the ground up. For Microsoft to still keep the traditional desktop in Windows RT was a really backwards and useless move. Personally I think they should have called the OS 'Surface OS' and even their line of Phones and 'Surface Phone' to differentiate an entirely product class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
‘APPLE IS DONE’ AND SURFACE TABLET IS COOL, ACCORDING TO TEENS
Not according to the teens in my house - Apple rules, Surface sucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
It was already doomed the day the demo'd it.
Because MS is run by a CLOWN, and the board doesn't care.
How true! Nothing like the "blue screen of death" right during the demo (ok, not the actual blue screen, but it froze just the same). And my 12-year old still can't get over the "developers, developers, developers" psychotic chant... Priceless!
Good point. Apple even said that at the original iPad announcement... a device that fits between your smartphone and laptop.
Microsoft, on the other hand, is trying to combine the tablet and laptop into one device with the Surface Pro. It sounds good in theory... but your old desktop programs don't quite work the same using touch as the primary interface... and 11.6" is a little small to be your primary display.
Sure... you can use the tiny trackpad on the keyboard cover... or hook up an external monitor when you're at your desk.
But why not just keep the 15" laptop you've been using? That's where the idea of the Surface Pro falls apart for me.
Do we think companies will start deploying 11.6" Surface Pros instead of traditional laptops? Do employees want that?
Again... it sounds good... carrying one device instead of a laptop and iPad. But sometimes convergence isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Let me tell you what I see with my own eyes
A. Chinese people don't want cheap iPhone. Those who want cheap iPhone can't even afford those 999 yuan cheapo knock-off android phone (So even the cheap in Apple standard is a month salary for them). And everyone who rush off to buy iPhone from Hong Kong (they released there earlier than in China) don't care about the price tag. Because these are the people who would queue up at Chanel (I have photos!!!) and drop 100,000 yuan a day for couple handbags. They don't want ANYONE to have an iPhone - apart from them.
B. Accessories makers don't want cheap iPhone - they hate samsung and motorola (and many other cheapo phone makers) - because their phone is hard to make money off. There is literally a few (yup no more than 10) models for Samsung phone accessories. But iPhone accessories? Fill up 3 giant mall with literally thousands of shops. They all thankful to Apple release strategy. Make their life so much easier.
C. China Mobile is the worst mobile company in the world. I bought one of their Pay as you go phone card earlier this year (this is the second time I am in China in 9 months). I start getting calls from Pin An insurance (another state own giant). I ask them how they get my number and they said - my phone record indicated that I am their prime customer candidate, what ? Phone record? how did you get it? they just hang up.
D. China Mobile is huge - over 700 million customers BUT 95% of those customer are using crapping keypad phone (Farmer who don't spend more than 10 yuan a month). Number sometime means very little, unless you can really filter it correctly. On the other hand, just one percent of their customers buy iPhone (its happening right now) that is 7 million hand set sale for Apple. And you can get iPhone 4 for around $290 here (contract free!) and even cheaper in Hong Kong. Plenty of people I know finally dumping their Android crap and buy a 4 or 4S instead.
That's it for now. My next stop will be the capital (I actually stop over in Beijing but no time to walk around). Beijing and Shanghai is the true indication of what the big trend is happening in China. When I was in Shanghai earlier this year. Everywhere I go (especially underground) all I see is iPhone. Shenzhen is mixture. Surprisingly I see more S3 in Hong Kong. I think there is a lot todo with Samsung aggressive shop present in the Southern China.
ZUNE 2.0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
‘APPLE IS DONE’ AND SURFACE TABLET IS COOL, ACCORDING TO TEENS
AH hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha,
Surface RT = Zune 2.0
Bye Bye Surface RT.
Teen agers don't exactly know everything, they certainly don't run IT staff for corporations do they? They just have XBox mentality, because the Teens that like Surface are XBox users, so they are already used to the simple Surface GUI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
Microsoft is the victim of its own past success.
I think Microsoft is above all the victim of poor technical craftsmanship. They never were able to create a software architecture that was robust under change. The fact that the bad architecture sold so well added to that problem. But the problem they face comes from a combination of two things:
Not focusing on User Experience as a driver.
Being very weak on architecture and unwilling to disrupt their own cash cow to make it better
This has always been so. Gates at Microsoft was a brilliant business strategist but a mediocre technologist and had no feeling for user experience at all.
Apple, on the other hand, has worked hard since Jobs returned at building a basic software architecture and they are not afraid to work on the fundamentals. I found it always ironical that Apple was being chastised for being 'just marketing'. At Apple with Jobs at the helm, the products (being engineered for user experience) created a fanatical following that could be exploited by Apple. At Apple, the product drives marketing, at Microsoft, marketing drives the products (remember Cairo?). Because of the brilliant business strategies by Gates (which, admitted, turned into illegal practices in the end), they created a monopoly. The move to mobile and especially to multi-touch disrupted their model.
I expect Microsoft to be around very long, based on the fact that many of their business systems (Exchange, Office (especially Excel), SharePoint, Active Directory) are deeply embedded in medium to large business.
I'd like a touch version of OSX running on a keyboard-less MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it will happen, because I see Apple trusts iOS concepts more than OSX concepts, and if we ever see a touch OSX, it will be iOS
I think this is the right move by Samsung. Intel are making good progress reducing the power requirements of x86. The non-RT tablets will be *the* MS tablet very soon.
I disagree with the comments about teenagers. If it were really true that teenagers were abandoning Apple products and found Windows RT to be superior, that would be a very important piece of information - and would be very bad news for Apple. Teenagers already drive billions of dollars of electronics spending and will be in positions where they drive more in not too many years.
I just don't believe it. Some no-name group with no history of successful predictions of this type (and their one public pronouncement turned out to be wrong) says Apple is Doomed. Let's just say that without knowing how they reached this conclusion and who is paying them, it would be wise to question their conclusions.
Whatever the intent or design philosophy, the problem with Microsoft is always the execution.
They could do so many things. They could have just get their backyard cleaned up first. i.e., Streamline, simplify, improve windows 8 to the point that it will be a pleasant experience for the millions of customers to own, maintain and use a windows PC. This would at least slow the defection from Windows PC to IPAD.
If Microsoft wants to create a touch-based OS, the whole OS UI should be touch-based friendly. No..they just created a half-hearted overlay and people discovered everything behind the overlay is still the same old UI which is not touch friendly.
Looks like Microsoft decided to get into the tablet market really late and rush themselves by releasing a half-baked OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisTheGeek
I'll notify Next of Kin!
agreed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell
I both agree and disagree. I don't think the traditional Windows UI necessarily dooms a tablet to failure, much to the contrary, I think if you're vastly exceeding the cost of a full-on notebook, the full capabilities of Windows (the full desktop and the ability to run all you're x86 applications) is very important. I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone. Which is why, despite some of their decisions, I think Microsoft is on the right track with Windows 8 - provide a tablet friendly UI for basic and on-the-go tasks, and the full desktop for when you need to be productive with the "real" applications you need to use. I know there's some overlap between "apps" and traditional "applications", but there's no denying that when real work needs to be done, there's no replacement for full desktop applications.
Clearly what's dooming Windows RT is that it's essentially nearly all the cost of a full Windows Pro system with none of the benefits - unlike iOS or Android tablets, the available app selection is extremely limited and limiting. So you don't have access to your traditional applications, you don't have access to much in the way of apps, and the whole Metro UI is essentially barely out of beta status.
On the other hand, give it a generation or two, and I think Windows RT will be gone and Windows Pro will make a very compelling OS for truly dual-purpose tablets - a touch friendly UI when it's used as a tablet, drop it into a dock and you have a full desktop OS for when you need those capabilities.
Provided Microsoft's brand survives those years. That's far from obvious given how pervasive Android+iPad are.
This did this once - with Windows XP (I don't count Windows 95 because too much of it was simply built on top of earlier versions). With XP (and the NT it was based upon), they essentially started from scratch and built a new system from the ground up. It took longer than they probably expected for it to become mainstream, but when you look at its longevity, it was clearly one of their most successful products ever. Unfortunately, they didn't go far enough. XP isn't modular enough (too many things can affect other things) and as they've piled more crap on top of it, it has become less viable.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure they have the time to do that again, at least as far as RT is concerned. Throwing out the whole mess and starting with a clean sheet of paper as Apple did with OS X would take years (just as it took Apple years to get to the point where the platform was stable and efficient enough to spin off iOS).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
I'd like a touch version of OSX running on a keyboard-less MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it will happen, because I see Apple trusts iOS concepts more than OSX concepts, and if we ever see a touch OSX, it will be iOS
Apple doesn't believe that, in the future, cars and airplanes will eventually become the same thing.
If "touch OSX = iOS", then it's already here.
I'll bet China Mobile's desire to do things like this is the biggest obstacle to a deal with Apple.