Every industrialized nation has had the same issue at some point in their history. Eventually China will get their act together just like the western counties did. The US had a couple hundred year head start in industrialization but in the early days they polluted lots of rivers and occasionally still do accidentally.
Accidental doesn't describe the incidents of industrial pollution in the US by a long shot, and it's certainly not a mere "occasional" occurrence.
Accidental doesn't describe the incidents of industrial pollution in the US by a long shot, and it's certainly not a mere "occasional" occurrence.
I'm sure you have some evidence to support your argument that the pollution is intentional and happens frequently.
In my observation here in California the environmental regulations are quite strict and also effective. Occasionally we experience sewage treatment overflows if we get a huge rain storm but for the most part it is rather clean around here. Even the auto emissions are way down from previous levels.
I'm sure that you realize what type of governmental system that they have in place. And that's part of the reason why I really don't care. The problem is not the pollution, IMO, you have to solve the core problem.
Political systems don't matter. The core problem is not having proper limitations on government officials taking money from private interests. People get paid to look the other way without any way for the public to do anything about it.
You can believe that "democracy" in Western countries somehow prevents this from happening, but it just means people have to be a bit more clever about how they go about such pay offs (find loopholes in laws and/or use a few levels of indirection and make the money trail very hard to follow). For example, here in Toronto (and I'm sure other places), public officials are paid off via special "loans". As a public official, accepting a direct payoff is illegal, but getting a loan (with special repayment terms) isn't. Hence they've found a loophole in the system which allows for the same type of bribery that happens in China. I'm sure I could find a dozen or more such examples in the US political system.
The true solution to the problem, no matter where/how it exists, is to stop the flow of private money into public institutions. This ensures that public institutions are acting in the best interest of the public rather than private interests (who typically have very little concern about environmental issues, just as you do).
How do those leaks affect you as an Apple shareholder any more than the bad publicity from being involved with a polluter?
"Oh no, some third parties will be able to have cases on the shelves for day one!"
Who gives a crap? Totally twisted priorities you have.
NB. Also an Apple shareholder (long time). Leaks don't seem to have hurt the value of my shares.
You seem to think that leaks are not a big deal, but I suppose that we'll just have to disagree.
And it's not about some third party case makers being able to have their cases on the shelves for day one. I don't care about any cases. I see it more as being about Apple's competitors having as little advance knowledge as possible when it comes to future products.
We all know that they are following Apple and they even drastically change their designs, based on what Apple releases. A good example is the iPad 2. A Samsung executive even admitted that it was back to the drawing board after Apple released the iPad 2. I guess that they were totally shocked and blown away by how thin it was when it was first announced.
Somebody leaking pictures weeks or months in advance can give the copy cat companies a head start on their copies, and I'd rather that they know as little as possible in advance. So that's why I am very strongly against leaks.
Political systems don't matter. The core problem is not having proper limitations on government officials taking money from private interests. People get paid to look the other way without any way for the public to do anything about it.
You can believe that "democracy" in Western countries somehow prevents this from happening, but it just means people have to be a bit more clever about how they go about such pay offs (find loopholes in laws and/or use a few levels of indirection and make the money trail very hard to follow). For example, here in Toronto (and I'm sure other places), public officials are paid off via special "loans". As a public official, accepting a direct payoff is illegal, but getting a loan (with special repayment terms) isn't. Hence they've found a loophole in the system which allows for the same type of bribery that happens in China. I'm sure I could find a dozen or more such examples in the US political system.
The true solution to the problem, no matter where/how it exists, is to stop the flow of private money into public institutions. This ensures that public institutions are acting in the best interest of the public rather than private interests (who typically have very little concern about environmental issues, just as you do).
The system that we have in most western countries is certainly not perfect, and I'm definitely not claiming that it is. There is corruption here, there are bad politicians who are crooks etc. I just think that it is on a whole other level in a country like China for example.
You must be with the 47 percent that voted for Obama to make sure their welfare checks where made nice and fat. This stae of mind is just calloused and delusional, pollution affects everybody on the planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I don't really care about the pollution, it's not my problem, and maybe some environmentalist types can go and protest or something, since they have nothing better to do with their time.
What interests me is that I'm wondering if this is the same casing supplier that those recent leaked photos came from, the photos of the iPad Mini with the blue Apple logo? I've always been saying that security needs to be tighter at all Apple suppliers and anybody caught leaking anything should be severely punished and obviously lose their jobs. Factory workers should not be allowed to bring any phones or cameras inside. They are there to work, not to take pictures and engage in espionage.
Frankly your position is more oppressive than the government of China. Obviously you have control freak tendencies. Tight security is often a vehicle that permits or breeds the sorts of illegal behaviors we are discussing here.
It sounded to me like they where indeed involved in the investigation. It wasn't so much the media catching on as local citizens complaining to their government.
As for Apple why should they escape any blame? They might not be legally responsible but morally they have a responsibility to make sure their products are manufactured with a minimal of harm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
Does the Chinese government truly not care about their own environment? Is the almighty yen (or dollar) that much more important than the health of their inhabitants. Do they simply turn a blind eye to what's right in front of them and only act (if they do) when the media catches on?
This is not an Apple issue. I'll bet other manufacturers for other brands have the exact (if not worse) problem with waste.
I mean come on! We had our problems in the US back in the early ages, but even if China is catching up it's not like they started from caves. Heck, they had us to use as a template of how to do things. Do they care that little about themselves?
It isn't that simple, China literally exploded over a couple of decades. Look around you locally, even our governments have had issue catching up locally. Technology advances quickly. We are not without our own stupid government driven escapades either, just look at some recent jobs programs. For example the stupidity of light rail programs that would give us more of 1950's technology. Mind you I'm not against public transportation but really we need to be more forward looking and innovative.
The fact is China has terrible environmental problems and they are moving with all the speed of any government to address those issues. Sure some companies ignore regulation but if you think that only happens in China you need to get in touch with reality.
For those of you that don't live in China let me explain. The problem stems from poor education, a "we will develop first and clean up later" attitude and the fact that Chinese only care about money and their immediate family, in that order.
Definitely time to add to my block list so I don't have to waste anymore time like I just did on this comment thread.
Apple ][ destroys another thread, deliberately and cynically. For those who didn't see it before, last year ConradJoe, banned professional troll extraordinaire, fingered Apple ][ as a fellow paid troll, whose job it is to pollute the thread with right-wing drivel and thus make it less possible for anyone to say that Apple fans are enlightened humanitarians. Or for them to think of themselves that way.
A bit far-fetched, I know, but I find it more believeable that anyone could really be as screamingly pathological as he pretends to be.
A Chinese company that makes cases for several major US companies is alleged to have polluted and the Financial Times headline reads: Apple, Apple, Apple!
God, these sensationalist rags with an agenda suck.
I totally agree. Only Apple is mentioned what about Asus or HP? Why does the article not mention them in the headlines? A quote further down in the article limply mentions those "other companies" (who don't turn the article into a hit whores dream).
"Apple, according to Casetek, is the main buyer of products produced by the factory, which also supplies Hewlett-Packard and Asus".
Next the Jack Asses will be demanding Apple do something about another companies problem while Asus and HP will get a Free Pass.
Accidental doesn't describe the incidents of industrial pollution in the US by a long shot, and it's certainly not a mere "occasional" occurrence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm sure you have some evidence to support your argument that the pollution is intentional and happens frequently.
In my observation here in California the environmental regulations are quite strict and also effective. Occasionally we experience sewage treatment overflows if we get a huge rain storm but for the most part it is rather clean around here. Even the auto emissions are way down from previous levels.
Don't need any, especially since I hardly said it's alway intentional and happens "frequently", just dismiss the notion that it's occasional and never intentional. If you pulled out the list of industrial river pollution cases in CA and put the "accidental" in column A and the ones that don't qualify as such in column B you would have only a few (occasional) cases on record and 100% in column A, not leaving any out.
Your statement "The US had a couple hundred year head start in industrialization but in the early days they polluted lots of rivers and occasionally still do accidentally." implies it is always "accidental" when it "occasionally" happens. The implication that it happens "occasionally" and when it does it's always "accidentally" is an incorrect one. Maybe it never makes the news in California but cases of river pollution are by no means rare here in the northeast, and it's harder to find a case of accidental industrial river pollution than non-accidental.
Does the Chinese government truly not care about their own environment? Is the almighty yen (or dollar) that much more important than the health of their inhabitants. Do they simply turn a blind eye to what's right in front of them and only act (if they do) when the media catches on?
As you can read in the story, the local people know about the problem and its effects. Somewhere in this mix is a corrupt local official that's blocking the information from flowing upstream. Local officials are the bane of China's government. However, the corruption doesn't stop at the local level, in some cases it goes all the way to the top.
A Chinese company that makes cases for several major US companies is alleged to have polluted and the Financial Times headline reads: Apple, Apple, Apple!
God, these sensationalist rags with an agenda suck.
How'd you like the allegedly, maybe, perhaps talk though out it, way to try to cover their butts on libel charges
Some of the pollutants may be volatile organic chemicals. If Apple is interested in a solution, there is a water treatment method that works in an industrial environment at www.cleanwatersingapore.com
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Every industrialized nation has had the same issue at some point in their history. Eventually China will get their act together just like the western counties did. The US had a couple hundred year head start in industrialization but in the early days they polluted lots of rivers and occasionally still do accidentally.
Accidental doesn't describe the incidents of industrial pollution in the US by a long shot, and it's certainly not a mere "occasional" occurrence.
That's some full-on Randian Objectivism there, Apple ][.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd
Accidental doesn't describe the incidents of industrial pollution in the US by a long shot, and it's certainly not a mere "occasional" occurrence.
I'm sure you have some evidence to support your argument that the pollution is intentional and happens frequently.
In my observation here in California the environmental regulations are quite strict and also effective. Occasionally we experience sewage treatment overflows if we get a huge rain storm but for the most part it is rather clean around here. Even the auto emissions are way down from previous levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I'm sure that you realize what type of governmental system that they have in place. And that's part of the reason why I really don't care. The problem is not the pollution, IMO, you have to solve the core problem.
Political systems don't matter. The core problem is not having proper limitations on government officials taking money from private interests. People get paid to look the other way without any way for the public to do anything about it.
You can believe that "democracy" in Western countries somehow prevents this from happening, but it just means people have to be a bit more clever about how they go about such pay offs (find loopholes in laws and/or use a few levels of indirection and make the money trail very hard to follow). For example, here in Toronto (and I'm sure other places), public officials are paid off via special "loans". As a public official, accepting a direct payoff is illegal, but getting a loan (with special repayment terms) isn't. Hence they've found a loophole in the system which allows for the same type of bribery that happens in China. I'm sure I could find a dozen or more such examples in the US political system.
The true solution to the problem, no matter where/how it exists, is to stop the flow of private money into public institutions. This ensures that public institutions are acting in the best interest of the public rather than private interests (who typically have very little concern about environmental issues, just as you do).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
How do those leaks affect you as an Apple shareholder any more than the bad publicity from being involved with a polluter?
"Oh no, some third parties will be able to have cases on the shelves for day one!"
Who gives a crap? Totally twisted priorities you have.
NB. Also an Apple shareholder (long time). Leaks don't seem to have hurt the value of my shares.
You seem to think that leaks are not a big deal, but I suppose that we'll just have to disagree.
And it's not about some third party case makers being able to have their cases on the shelves for day one. I don't care about any cases. I see it more as being about Apple's competitors having as little advance knowledge as possible when it comes to future products.
We all know that they are following Apple and they even drastically change their designs, based on what Apple releases. A good example is the iPad 2. A Samsung executive even admitted that it was back to the drawing board after Apple released the iPad 2. I guess that they were totally shocked and blown away by how thin it was when it was first announced.
Somebody leaking pictures weeks or months in advance can give the copy cat companies a head start on their copies, and I'd rather that they know as little as possible in advance. So that's why I am very strongly against leaks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio
Political systems don't matter. The core problem is not having proper limitations on government officials taking money from private interests. People get paid to look the other way without any way for the public to do anything about it.
You can believe that "democracy" in Western countries somehow prevents this from happening, but it just means people have to be a bit more clever about how they go about such pay offs (find loopholes in laws and/or use a few levels of indirection and make the money trail very hard to follow). For example, here in Toronto (and I'm sure other places), public officials are paid off via special "loans". As a public official, accepting a direct payoff is illegal, but getting a loan (with special repayment terms) isn't. Hence they've found a loophole in the system which allows for the same type of bribery that happens in China. I'm sure I could find a dozen or more such examples in the US political system.
The true solution to the problem, no matter where/how it exists, is to stop the flow of private money into public institutions. This ensures that public institutions are acting in the best interest of the public rather than private interests (who typically have very little concern about environmental issues, just as you do).
The system that we have in most western countries is certainly not perfect, and I'm definitely not claiming that it is. There is corruption here, there are bad politicians who are crooks etc. I just think that it is on a whole other level in a country like China for example.
I grew up in machine shops, this it probably Tri-Clorides used to make cutting tools last longer......
It is some really nasty stuff....
Definitely time to add to my block list so I don't have to waste anymore time like I just did on this comment thread.
You must be with the 47 percent that voted for Obama to make sure their welfare checks where made nice and fat. This stae of mind is just calloused and delusional, pollution affects everybody on the planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I don't really care about the pollution, it's not my problem, and maybe some environmentalist types can go and protest or something, since they have nothing better to do with their time.
What interests me is that I'm wondering if this is the same casing supplier that those recent leaked photos came from, the photos of the iPad Mini with the blue Apple logo? I've always been saying that security needs to be tighter at all Apple suppliers and anybody caught leaking anything should be severely punished and obviously lose their jobs. Factory workers should not be allowed to bring any phones or cameras inside. They are there to work, not to take pictures and engage in espionage.
Frankly your position is more oppressive than the government of China. Obviously you have control freak tendencies. Tight security is often a vehicle that permits or breeds the sorts of illegal behaviors we are discussing here.
It sounded to me like they where indeed involved in the investigation. It wasn't so much the media catching on as local citizens complaining to their government.
As for Apple why should they escape any blame? They might not be legally responsible but morally they have a responsibility to make sure their products are manufactured with a minimal of harm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
Does the Chinese government truly not care about their own environment? Is the almighty yen (or dollar) that much more important than the health of their inhabitants. Do they simply turn a blind eye to what's right in front of them and only act (if they do) when the media catches on?
This is not an Apple issue. I'll bet other manufacturers for other brands have the exact (if not worse) problem with waste.
I mean come on! We had our problems in the US back in the early ages, but even if China is catching up it's not like they started from caves. Heck, they had us to use as a template of how to do things. Do they care that little about themselves?
It isn't that simple, China literally exploded over a couple of decades. Look around you locally, even our governments have had issue catching up locally. Technology advances quickly. We are not without our own stupid government driven escapades either, just look at some recent jobs programs. For example the stupidity of light rail programs that would give us more of 1950's technology. Mind you I'm not against public transportation but really we need to be more forward looking and innovative.
The fact is China has terrible environmental problems and they are moving with all the speed of any government to address those issues. Sure some companies ignore regulation but if you think that only happens in China you need to get in touch with reality.
Apple ][ destroys another thread, deliberately and cynically. For those who didn't see it before, last year ConradJoe, banned professional troll extraordinaire, fingered Apple ][ as a fellow paid troll, whose job it is to pollute the thread with right-wing drivel and thus make it less possible for anyone to say that Apple fans are enlightened humanitarians. Or for them to think of themselves that way.
A bit far-fetched, I know, but I find it more believeable that anyone could really be as screamingly pathological as he pretends to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul
A Chinese company that makes cases for several major US companies is alleged to have polluted and the Financial Times headline reads: Apple, Apple, Apple!
God, these sensationalist rags with an agenda suck.
I totally agree. Only Apple is mentioned what about Asus or HP? Why does the article not mention them in the headlines? A quote further down in the article limply mentions those "other companies" (who don't turn the article into a hit whores dream).
"Apple, according to Casetek, is the main buyer of products produced by the factory, which also supplies Hewlett-Packard and Asus".
Next the Jack Asses will be demanding Apple do something about another companies problem while Asus and HP will get a Free Pass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd
Accidental doesn't describe the incidents of industrial pollution in the US by a long shot, and it's certainly not a mere "occasional" occurrence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm sure you have some evidence to support your argument that the pollution is intentional and happens frequently.
In my observation here in California the environmental regulations are quite strict and also effective. Occasionally we experience sewage treatment overflows if we get a huge rain storm but for the most part it is rather clean around here. Even the auto emissions are way down from previous levels.
Don't need any, especially since I hardly said it's alway intentional and happens "frequently", just dismiss the notion that it's occasional and never intentional. If you pulled out the list of industrial river pollution cases in CA and put the "accidental" in column A and the ones that don't qualify as such in column B you would have only a few (occasional) cases on record and 100% in column A, not leaving any out.
Your statement "The US had a couple hundred year head start in industrialization but in the early days they polluted lots of rivers and occasionally still do accidentally." implies it is always "accidental" when it "occasionally" happens. The implication that it happens "occasionally" and when it does it's always "accidentally" is an incorrect one. Maybe it never makes the news in California but cases of river pollution are by no means rare here in the northeast, and it's harder to find a case of accidental industrial river pollution than non-accidental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
Does the Chinese government truly not care about their own environment? Is the almighty yen (or dollar) that much more important than the health of their inhabitants. Do they simply turn a blind eye to what's right in front of them and only act (if they do) when the media catches on?
As you can read in the story, the local people know about the problem and its effects. Somewhere in this mix is a corrupt local official that's blocking the information from flowing upstream. Local officials are the bane of China's government. However, the corruption doesn't stop at the local level, in some cases it goes all the way to the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul
A Chinese company that makes cases for several major US companies is alleged to have polluted and the Financial Times headline reads: Apple, Apple, Apple!
God, these sensationalist rags with an agenda suck.
How'd you like the allegedly, maybe, perhaps talk though out it, way to try to cover their butts on libel charges
We have a solution for Apple if they want to use it. It's describe in our website...
www.cleanwatersingapore.com
Originally Posted by cleanwater
We have a solution for Apple if they want to use it.
This has nothing to do with Apple.
Some of the pollutants may be volatile organic chemicals. If Apple is interested in a solution, there is a water treatment method that works in an industrial environment at www.cleanwatersingapore.com