Apple's tax strategy portrayed by Senate subcommittee as a unique 'absurdity'

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  • Reply 41 of 159
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,034member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    Apple is estimated to pay $7B in taxes this year. Why should Apple pay more?


     


    Depends.  How much did they earn?  And how much did they earn when you take out any financial chicanery?  A number on its own is pretty meaningless.


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rtamesis View Post



    Just another greedy politician.


     


    I don't understand comments like this.  Are you suggesting that Levin receives some kind of kick back for criticizing Apple?  The norm is for politicians to be called greedy when they cozy up to companies in exchange for campaign contributions and/or personal gifts, so I'm not sure where this partciular ire, which is in quite a different direction, comes from.

  • Reply 42 of 159
    mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post


    I don't understand comments like this.  Are you suggesting that Levin receives some kind of kick back for criticizing Apple?  The norm is for politicians to be called greedy when they cozy up to companies in exchange for campaign contributions and/or personal gifts, so I'm not sure where this partciular ire, which is in quite a different direction, comes from.



     


    Well, to be fair, people can be greedy for things other than money...power...celebrity...attention...etc.


     


    Not saying that' what the original poster meant. But I don't think it's a spurious claim to suggest that politicians are often greedy even if not necessarily for money.

  • Reply 43 of 159
    gregordgregord Posts: 36member


    Another thing for those saying all we need to do is close the loopholes, get a clue. Close the loopholes, but if and only if the rates are lowered to at or below the OECD average. The US currently has the highest corporate rates in the OECD. Getting rid of the expenditures and keeping the rates where they are would be a disaster for our competitiveness and simply encourage more companies to move operations to favorable tax jurisdictions.

  • Reply 44 of 159
    jasenj1jasenj1 Posts: 922member


    "Apple is exploiting an absurdity, one that we have not seen other corporations use," the senator said. "And the absurdity need not continue."


     


    Apple's response should be: "When the absurdity is ended, we will stop exploiting it. Until then, we have a fiduciary responsibility to our shareholders (many of whom are US citizens, pension plans, and retirement funds) to maximize the return on our capital. Have a nice day."


     


    If you find a loophole and it works and is legal, keep using it - and use it to its fullest.


     


    Steve had a low tolerance for stupidity. I would love to hear him testify before this committee. I suspect he'd tell them the problem is of their own making, go *bleep* yourselves until it's fixed. I have work to get back to.


     


    - Jasen.

  • Reply 45 of 159
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    mytdave wrote: »
    So, stop bitching about Apple, and fix the tax code.  The problem is the Govt. not the companies they're trying to vilify.  Any company who isn't using every legal means to avoid paying tax isn't acting with due diligence.

    You can bet they use every loophole they can.

    We need to petition for these waste of time and taxpayer money witch hunts to end. Change the laws, prove one was broken or shut up.
  • Reply 46 of 159
    jessijessi Posts: 302member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregord View Post



    I could not agree more with the comments from Rand Paul. This is a disgusting sideshow, political grandstanding at its worst.


    Apple should give him a lot of money for his campaign.  If Apple's guilty of anything, it's not getting politically involved to protect human rights and property rights from these scumbags.   McCain, such a hypocrite, pretends to be a republican and "anti-tax" then says what he said today. 


     


    Also, it's dishonest to call this "Tax avoidance".   It's like they're "avoiding" taxes they "owe".... but the reality is, they don't owe taxes to the US government for sales outside the USA. 


     


    They're non-taxes.  You can't "Avoid" it if you don't owe it in the first place.


     


    This "tax avoidance" talk comes from the presumption we're all slaves and that all of our income is subject to tax.


     


    It's ludicrous--- and ABSURDLY GREEDY-- that these socialist scumbags think they are due a cut for business that happens completely outside the USA.  Hell, they're not even due a cut for business within the USA.


     


    Taxes are theft, and the thing about thieves is, they're never satisfied... they always want more and more.

  • Reply 47 of 159
    And of course Sen Levin is well versed in the art of Tax Evasion. After all, he has avoided paying any Social Security and Medicare taxes for his whole Senate career. Funny how it is worng for a corporation to want to pay as little taxes as possible but a for politician it is just business as usual. As the old joke goes, be careful not to step in the "umpah" Mister Levin.
  • Reply 48 of 159
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,918member
    mj1970 wrote: »
    I'm curious what changed then. What events or circumstances prompted this "consolidation?" Or was really no different from now in which we have "two" parties that are only superficially and marginally different from one another?

    The civil war, reconstruction and the money that goes with it.
  • Reply 49 of 159
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    rogifan wrote: »
    Apple is estimated to pay $7B in taxes this year. Why should Apple pay more?

    Congress wants a raise.
  • Reply 50 of 159
    stefstef Posts: 87member
    :???: Apple built the biggest, best company on earth, in history, and in the US. And we vilify it for no good reason? Not vilified? "It's unacceptable that corporations like Apple are able to exploit tax loopholes to avoid paying billions in taxes," McCain said." Unacceptable why? What alternatives did Apple have? Corporations like Apple? But only Apple on the griddle? Exploit loopholes? Loopholes McCain made? :???:
  • Reply 51 of 159
    mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stef View Post



    Apple built the biggest, best company on earth, in history, and in the US. And we vilify it for no good reason?


     


    They did the same thing to Standard Oil a hundred years ago (or so). It's SOP. Someone produces something extremely valuable, makes a boatload of money, then they get attacked in the press and Congress until they are knocked down a notch. It is the American way I guess.

  • Reply 52 of 159
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    jessi wrote: »

    The only thing Apple's at fault for here, is not putting money behind serious political reform in this country.

    So Apple should be required to fix the country? Is that before or after they take over and fix the ISPs, cable companies, cell phone services, schools, book publishers, TV nets, movie studios and record labels

    Apple hasn't banked on reform for the same reason that they don't support any charities, Jobs felt the company didn't have the right to pick which charities and politics shareholder money should be spent on.
  • Reply 53 of 159
    gregordgregord Posts: 36member


    I would quibble with the "we" in your statement. The Democrat from the once great state of Michigan is the one doing the vilifying. We the people recognize that what serves to fill our government coffers is not also the best thing for our economy. We recognize that a lower broader corporate tax rate would not only help our economy, but may actually increase tax receipts.

  • Reply 54 of 159
    jessijessi Posts: 302member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post


    If you find a loophole and it works and is legal, keep using it - and use it to its fullest.


     


    Steve had a low tolerance for stupidity. I would love to hear him testify before this committee. I suspect he'd tell them the problem is of their own making, go *bleep* yourselves until it's fixed. I have work to get back to.



     


    Let's stop calling it a loophole.  This plays into the lie that they are somehow "avoiding" tax.   It's not a loophole that the USA can't collect taxes for business outside it's jurisdiction.   It's simply the fact that the US Government has no right to a cut of business that occurs overseas.


     


    It's sad that we've been conditioned to think and talk like slaves, and it's by design that they put things this way to try and even make thinking about it rationally impossible.  (Like calling people who believe in science "climate warming deniers", which presumes climate warming is a fact they are in "denial" of.)   Like the rejection of the science, that makes people incapable of considering scientific reality, politicians propagandize in a way that makes it difficult to recognize just how absurd their claims are.


     


    Apple isn't "Avoiding" taxes, the TAXES DON'T EXIST!


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

    I don't understand comments like this.  Are you suggesting that Levin receives some kind of kick back for criticizing Apple?  The norm is for politicians to be called greedy when they cozy up to companies in exchange for campaign contributions and/or personal gifts, so I'm not sure where this partciular ire, which is in quite a different direction, comes from.


     


    It doesn't matter how much Apple earned. It's their money and they are not your slave to exploit.


     


    Politicians don't "cozy up" to companies-- they say "it's a mighty nice business you have here, be a real shame if something were to happen to it.".


     


    Politicians only have the threat of violence- that's all government can do-- and so this shake down racket has been going on a long time.  The idea that politicians are cozy with corporations is part of the BS "corporations are too powerful" lie that is spread to keep people from realizing that it is politicians who have destroyed the economy.... and part and parcel to standard socialist propaganda. 


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


     


    I'm curious what changed then. What events or circumstances prompted this "consolidation?" Or was really no different from now in which we have "two" parties that are only superficially and marginally different from one another?



     


    Poltiicians are corrupt in their nature.  So they started passing laws that keep third parties off the ballots or give their own party an advantage. These laws are so entrenched now that the idea that America has "fair" elections is absurd.   Third parties spend all their time and money trying to get on the ballots and aren't even allowed into the debates.... this makes the elections a sham and a joke.  


     


    Like in Iraq when Saddam Hussien won every time--- in America, the one party with two heads wins every time.

  • Reply 55 of 159
    rayzrayz Posts: 814member


    Yet again I find myself astounded at the poor quality of an AppleInsider article


     


     


     


    Quote:


    In opening remarks of a hearing Tuesday morning, the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations accused Apple of being the mastermind of elaborate tax evasion practices that are unique to the iPhone maker.



     


     


    Now, did he really use the phrase 'tax evasion'? I doubt it, because if he was accusing Apple of tax evasion then this would be a criminal trial and not a senate hearing.


     


    Seriously, if AI believes that the terms 'tax evasion' and 'tax avoidance' can be used interchangeably then they should stick to copying stuff off other sites and leave the real journalism to MacObserver.

  • Reply 56 of 159
    jessijessi Posts: 302member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

    So Apple should be required to fix the country? Is that before or after they take over and fix the ISPs, cable companies, cell phone services, schools, book publishers, TV nets, movie studios and record labels


     


    I never said they should be required to do anything.  But if you're a business, you owe it to your shareholders to protect the assets of the business.  Apple has a lot of money in cash, denominated in dollars.  Those dollars are going down in value dramatically becuase of our corrupt political system, which inflates to cover their deficit spending.   Apple's ability to hold onto those dollars is weakened by the fact that we have poltiicians in office who don't respect property rights... and we can see here them gleefully lusting after Apple's money, and acting outraged that they can't engorge themselves on it. 


     


    Apple owes its survival, in part, to the continued respect of property rights in america, and those rights are being ever eroded.


     


    That's why they need to back political reform... not because I want it, or have any power to "require" them to.

  • Reply 57 of 159
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Wow... is this ever turning into a witch hunt.
    Find one company with big name recognition, crucify them and let the others (who are contributing to your campaigns) off.
    There's plenty of room for corporate tax reform.
    This is not the way.
  • Reply 58 of 159
    jessijessi Posts: 302member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rayz View Post


    Seriously, if AI believes that terns 'tax evasion' and 'tax avoidance' can be used interchangeably then they should stick to copying stuff off other sites and leave the real journalism to MacObserver.



     


    Unfortunately, the term "Tax Avoidance" is designed specifically to sound like it means the same thing as "Tax Evasion"... the same way they say "automatic rifle" when they mean semi-automatic, or "assault weapon" when they mean "hunting rifle"... it's use of terminology to demonize. 


     


    It would be better if AI was more careful, but AI merely slipped into the trap that was laid for everybody who sees this dishonest political terminology.

  • Reply 59 of 159
    macinthe408macinthe408 Posts: 1,050member
    "We should have brought in here today a giant mirror, so that we can look at the reflection of Congress, because this problem is created by the awful tax code," he [Rand Paul] said."

    End of story.
  • Reply 60 of 159
    Whoa!! I can't believe that I have found myself in complete agreement with Rand Paul. Interesting how the idiots (Congress) that make the rules (i.e. the tax code) don't like it when a company plays (and wins!!) by the rules, but still manages to show just how idiotic the rules actually are. I love the irony!
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