The argument for the database dismantling is more on the order of it being ineffective. Their shining trophy is some Somali guy who apparently sent $7,500 back home to support his tribespeople in their fight against Ethiopia and Ethiopia's backers (meaning us).
Oh and BTW collecting and storing business records for some future, court approved process search, isn't any sort of "Constitutional" violation.
The argument for the database dismantling is more on the order of it being ineffective. Their shining trophy is some Somali guy who apparently sent $7,500 back home to support his tribespeople in their fight against Ethiopia and Ethiopia's backers (meaning us).
Oh and BTW collecting and storing business records for some future, court approved process search, isn't any sort of "Constitutional" violation.
The argument for the database dismantling is more on the order of it being ineffective...
Agree.
The most egregious example being the Boston Marathon bombing. That was a complete, total intelligence and policing failure. Had some common bloke not stepped out his back door to smoke a cigarette, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev may have never been captured. Dave Henneberry was technically violating the city's lock down order when he walked outside his house to smoke and discovered where the bomber was hiding. Henneberry was subject to arrest just for being outside.
Remind me again…How much do we spend on our intelligence services and militarizing our police departments? In the case of the Boston Marathon bombing we had a very low rate of return on whatever that figure is.
Actually when you talk about the NSA, largely you are. The cell phone metadata falls under the business records section of the legislation, information the various cellphone providers record for their business purposes... the problem as NSA sees it (as I understand the argument), is the providers don't store the records for a length of time that's optimal for the NSA's purposes: hence the archiving.
It's under section 215.
"Access to Certain Business Records for Foreign Intelligence and International Terrorism Investigations (50 U.S.C. sec. 1861)"
Actually when you talk about the NSA, largely you are. The cell phone metadata falls under the business records section of the legislation, information the various cellphone providers record for their business purposes... the problem as NSA sees it (as I understand the argument), is the providers don't store the records for a length of time that's optimal for the NSA's purposes: hence the archiving.
…they don't have the resources to go after every little Tom, Dick, and Loser out there. Remember, they have to get a court order
Don't be stupid or delusional about this.
I think you need to take a chill pill. Unless you are terrorist. Are you a terrorist? If not, then chill out.
First, today isn't the issue. It's tomorrow. Imagine someone worse than Bush/Cheney taking power, and abusing the hell out of all this nicely gathered, institutionalized surveillance data. Even worse than today. Today, we are institutionalizing it, marginalizing it, making it "the new normal". Tomorrow, it's Nazi Germany or worse all over again. Don't think for a second it can't happen here.
Second, they aren't "going after" every T, D & L, so long as they stay in line. But wait until they "petition for a redress of grievances", or gather in protest, or try to form a political group, or run for office. Then the innocuous, harmless, background files come to the forefront. Leverage. Character assassination. Public humiliation. Or worse. You name it. They will have all the ammunition they need. That 'pink underwear fetish' you thought no-one knew about? Uh-huh.
Privacy matters. Because none of us is perfect, all of us have foibles, we ALL have something that can be used against us, even if it isn't something particularly bad or even uncommon. The totalitarian states in recent history have proved this. It begins by dividing and polarizing us, and setting us suspiciously against each other. The rest is easy.
So don't tell us to chill. "Terrorism" is a premise being used to erode, reduce and diminish our civil liberties. Period. There are other ways to deal with the "threats", but these are the methods preferred (by the power+control minded set). Perhaps less expedient, perhaps more costly, perhaps even less effective overall. But I will not give up my freedom and liberty, not one speck of it, to gain a better "false sense of security".
I'm neither stupid nor delusional. I've played on the inside of that game. If anything, I'd say back to you, don't be ignorant and contrary when you don't know enough about what you speak. Your Orwellian "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" statement shows you seriously haven't applied enough intellect to this. Or, you work for the other side.
I think you need to take a chill pill. Unless you are terrorist. Are you a terrorist? If not, then chill out.
And I think you should do some research before jumping the gun and making such statements.
Are you familiar with Blackstone's formulation? It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.
Many Western justice systems abide by that (at least that's what they say).
Are you also familiar with the case of Maher Arar? The Syrian-Canadian who was tortured for over a year in a Syrian prison only to turn out that he done nothing wrong.
When it comes to data-mining and spying, I'd rather put my fate in principles such Blackstone's, than some loose interpretation as yours.
I believe, surveillance is necessary to an extend to ensure people can enjoy better security.
Security from what? The government can't protect you. And it certainly can't protect you by taking away your freedom and privacy rights. Those things are the most sacred. That's what needs protecting. If that's what they say they have to do to "protect" you then the terrorists have already won. The best thing America could do to protect you is to stop dropping bombs on foreign countries and starting countless wars. All they are doing is creating enemies. Ron Paul had the right idea. Bring ALL the fucking American troops home from every country and save billions and get the American economy moving again. That's the best way to ensure security for America. Save money, concentrate on innovation, get everyone back to work and create friends around the world, not enemies. It's really common sense when you think about it.
If it isn't spelled out in the Constitution, then it is up to the people, not the government. Violation of our constitutional rights needs to be more jealously defended and when those in government are found to be violating, people need to be fired and/or jailed immediately.
"Behind closed doors". Says it all really. These clowns just don't get it... Obalma should be engaging with the people on such an important topic... How weak...
You know, when I was living in Ireland, in the last few months leading up to the election, all I got was, "What'd'cha think of Obama?" this and "Oh, Obama, isn't he grand?" that. Suppose it was because I'm an American. Anyway, then two days before the election, I go and get the Times and what do I find? This.
Kept it, all these years.
From your comment, I believe it's safe to say the infatuation has worn off, eh?
You know, when I was living in Ireland, in the last few months leading up to the election, all I got was, "What'd'cha think of Obama?" this and "Oh, Obama, isn't he grand?" that. Suppose it was because I'm an American. Anyway, then two days before the election, I go and get the Times and what do I find? This.
From your comment, I believe it's safe to say the infatuation has worn off, eh? <img alt="lol.gif" id="user_yui_3_10_0_1_1376091219929_1646" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" style="line-height:1.231;" name="user_yui_3_10_0_1_1376091219929_1646">
You know, when I was living in Ireland, in the last few months leading up to the election, all I got was, "What'd'cha think of Obama?" this and "Oh, Obama, isn't he grand?" that. Suppose it was because I'm an American. Anyway, then two days before the election, I go and get the Times and what do I find? This.
Kept it, all these years.
From your comment, I believe it's safe to say the infatuation has worn off, eh?
Nice. Hang on to that one!
The potential was (and still is) always there. I'm probably among those who feel he hasn't quite lived up to it though.
Some of the more draconian measures being revealed lately indicate he may be an even greater disappointment than most. I'm hoping he turns that around. Only time will tell. I'm remaining in a neutral 'holding pattern' about all of it for the time being.
Enough politics. How about those surveillance issues…?
Yeah, we actually do need laws. Laws, especially when enforced creates order amongst societies of people. Without laws, we have anarchy.
You don't like laws unless someone violates your civil rights, and then you want them. That would be a 1 way street.
A free for all existence might seem nice to some, but it's not a safe environment because the a-holes would then bully around those that like to live with some civility. we kind of have that today, but at least there is a legal/law enforcement system to minimize it.
The potential was (and still is) always there. I'm probably among those who feel he hasn't quite lived up to it though.
You can't be on both sides. Potential? He's an out and out liar and a failure. All of the promises he made were lies. He's worse than Bush. Why can't you see that?
Comments
Wait...It's 2013 and people STILL use this argument?
._.
The argument for the database dismantling is more on the order of it being ineffective. Their shining trophy is some Somali guy who apparently sent $7,500 back home to support his tribespeople in their fight against Ethiopia and Ethiopia's backers (meaning us).
Oh and BTW collecting and storing business records for some future, court approved process search, isn't any sort of "Constitutional" violation.
We aren't even talking about "business records".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfc1138
The argument for the database dismantling is more on the order of it being ineffective...
Agree.
The most egregious example being the Boston Marathon bombing. That was a complete, total intelligence and policing failure. Had some common bloke not stepped out his back door to smoke a cigarette, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev may have never been captured. Dave Henneberry was technically violating the city's lock down order when he walked outside his house to smoke and discovered where the bomber was hiding. Henneberry was subject to arrest just for being outside.
Remind me again…How much do we spend on our intelligence services and militarizing our police departments? In the case of the Boston Marathon bombing we had a very low rate of return on whatever that figure is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
We aren't even talking about "business records".
Actually when you talk about the NSA, largely you are. The cell phone metadata falls under the business records section of the legislation, information the various cellphone providers record for their business purposes... the problem as NSA sees it (as I understand the argument), is the providers don't store the records for a length of time that's optimal for the NSA's purposes: hence the archiving.
It's under section 215.
"Access to Certain Business Records for Foreign Intelligence and International Terrorism Investigations (50 U.S.C. sec. 1861)"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/149791922/National-Security-Agency-Section-702-of-FISA-and-Section-215-of-PATRIOT-Act-Fact-Sheets
I now understand what you meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank
…they don't have the resources to go after every little Tom, Dick, and Loser out there. Remember, they have to get a court order
Don't be stupid or delusional about this.
I think you need to take a chill pill. Unless you are terrorist. Are you a terrorist? If not, then chill out.
First, today isn't the issue. It's tomorrow. Imagine someone worse than Bush/Cheney taking power, and abusing the hell out of all this nicely gathered, institutionalized surveillance data. Even worse than today. Today, we are institutionalizing it, marginalizing it, making it "the new normal". Tomorrow, it's Nazi Germany or worse all over again. Don't think for a second it can't happen here.
Second, they aren't "going after" every T, D & L, so long as they stay in line. But wait until they "petition for a redress of grievances", or gather in protest, or try to form a political group, or run for office. Then the innocuous, harmless, background files come to the forefront. Leverage. Character assassination. Public humiliation. Or worse. You name it. They will have all the ammunition they need. That 'pink underwear fetish' you thought no-one knew about? Uh-huh.
Privacy matters. Because none of us is perfect, all of us have foibles, we ALL have something that can be used against us, even if it isn't something particularly bad or even uncommon. The totalitarian states in recent history have proved this. It begins by dividing and polarizing us, and setting us suspiciously against each other. The rest is easy.
So don't tell us to chill. "Terrorism" is a premise being used to erode, reduce and diminish our civil liberties. Period. There are other ways to deal with the "threats", but these are the methods preferred (by the power+control minded set). Perhaps less expedient, perhaps more costly, perhaps even less effective overall. But I will not give up my freedom and liberty, not one speck of it, to gain a better "false sense of security".
I'm neither stupid nor delusional. I've played on the inside of that game. If anything, I'd say back to you, don't be ignorant and contrary when you don't know enough about what you speak. Your Orwellian "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" statement shows you seriously haven't applied enough intellect to this. Or, you work for the other side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank
I think you need to take a chill pill. Unless you are terrorist. Are you a terrorist? If not, then chill out.
And I think you should do some research before jumping the gun and making such statements.
Are you familiar with Blackstone's formulation? It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.
Many Western justice systems abide by that (at least that's what they say).
Are you also familiar with the case of Maher Arar? The Syrian-Canadian who was tortured for over a year in a Syrian prison only to turn out that he done nothing wrong.
When it comes to data-mining and spying, I'd rather put my fate in principles such Blackstone's, than some loose interpretation as yours.
Security from what? The government can't protect you. And it certainly can't protect you by taking away your freedom and privacy rights. Those things are the most sacred. That's what needs protecting. If that's what they say they have to do to "protect" you then the terrorists have already won. The best thing America could do to protect you is to stop dropping bombs on foreign countries and starting countless wars. All they are doing is creating enemies. Ron Paul had the right idea. Bring ALL the fucking American troops home from every country and save billions and get the American economy moving again. That's the best way to ensure security for America. Save money, concentrate on innovation, get everyone back to work and create friends around the world, not enemies. It's really common sense when you think about it.
What laws?
These clowns just don't get it...
Obalma should be engaging with the people on such an important topic... How weak...
Originally Posted by Ireland
Obama is a fake.
You know, when I was living in Ireland, in the last few months leading up to the election, all I got was, "What'd'cha think of Obama?" this and "Oh, Obama, isn't he grand?" that. Suppose it was because I'm an American. Anyway, then two days before the election, I go and get the Times and what do I find? This.
Kept it, all these years.
From your comment, I believe it's safe to say the infatuation has worn off, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You know, when I was living in Ireland, in the last few months leading up to the election, all I got was, "What'd'cha think of Obama?" this and "Oh, Obama, isn't he grand?" that. Suppose it was because I'm an American. Anyway, then two days before the election, I go and get the Times and what do I find? This.
Kept it, all these years.
From your comment, I believe it's safe to say the infatuation has worn off, eh?
Nice. Hang on to that one!
The potential was (and still is) always there. I'm probably among those who feel he hasn't quite lived up to it though.
Some of the more draconian measures being revealed lately indicate he may be an even greater disappointment than most. I'm hoping he turns that around. Only time will tell. I'm remaining in a neutral 'holding pattern' about all of it for the time being.
Enough politics. How about those surveillance issues…?
Laws? We don't need no stinkin' laws!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Laws? We don't need no stinkin' laws!
Yeah, we actually do need laws. Laws, especially when enforced creates order amongst societies of people. Without laws, we have anarchy.
You don't like laws unless someone violates your civil rights, and then you want them. That would be a 1 way street.
A free for all existence might seem nice to some, but it's not a safe environment because the a-holes would then bully around those that like to live with some civility. we kind of have that today, but at least there is a legal/law enforcement system to minimize it.
You can't be on both sides. Potential? He's an out and out liar and a failure. All of the promises he made were lies. He's worse than Bush. Why can't you see that?
Yeah, 200 more drones and he'll be Jesus.
We were both being ironic. The rule of law for Presidents, politicians bankers and wankers died in 2001. Not in Iceland though.
Correct.