Any customer can have a Mac Pro any colour that he wants so long as it is black? ;-)
The quote, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.", can be found in the book 'My Life and Work' written by Henry Ford and Samuel Crowther.
A popular quote often attributed to Henry Ford, “If I’d asked people what they wanted, they’d have asked for a faster horse.”, has never been sourced to any primary material.
Yes, I'm familiar with the quotes. They are applicable to John Doe consumers who really don't know what they want. Pro users are a completely different breed. They have specific needs and know what they want/need (often to the minute detail) in order to accomplish what ever they set out to do.
In the end they will use whatever tool is best for the job and that is least cumbersome to use.
Excessive wires cause clutter, are more prone to failure (yes thunderbolt cables fail often) and are easily unplugged. Internal expansion gets out of the way and is better protected in a neat package.
I wasn't referring solely to OpenCL. I was pointing out that tools that are provided by NVidia are not likely to be completely optimized for AMD hardware. It goes beyond CUDA. They experiment in all kinds of stuff. The raytracer Adobe uses in After Effects has come up a couple times (yeah yeah I know computers do more than edit movies, but this example has come up) is designed to use CUDA and very slow running on the cpu.
Nothing wrong with that but ray tracing software isn't a product that only NVidia supplies.
They basically implemented work done by NVidia. If the initiative began with Adobe, it's not as likely that it would have been CUDA based.
My concern is that Adobe doesn't have much of a future as a company when the real need for discrete GPUs practically evaporates. There will always be a high end market but the volume there will mean drastic price restructuring just to keep development going. I could see discrete GPU cards starting at $1000 in the near future and the ultra high performance compute crass more than doubling in price. That just to keep NVidia above water. So my resistance to CUDA really has little to do with its technical merits, I just see NVidia doing a Kodak in a couple of years.
Speaking of OpenCL, have you seen its 2.0 specification? I have nothing against it. I merely wanted to point out that it isn't the only thing that has driven NVidia's relative dominance in that area up to this point..
NVidias dominance comes from being first to market with a solution that attracts the attention of early adopters. However the word dominance is clearly aging quickly as many people have abandoned CUDA. That doesn't mean they have abandoned NVidia yet, but there are better performing solutions across the board.
As for the 2.0 OpenCL spec, I haven't looked at it in depth, but it looks like it is evolving along with hardware capabilities. This is another thing to consider, nobody has really gotten to the point where they are delivering the hardware for the type of heterogeneous systems everyone is reaching for. Haswell comes very close and has some really impressive compute scores. Both AMD and NVidia are working hard at advancing their GPUs to handle that heterogeneous future better. However that hardware and software really needs to integrate well with Apples OS.
I mentioned this a few weeks ago but I'm still wondering(hoping) that the big delay for the new Mac Pro is in part GPU related. It is my understanding new Pro hardware will come late this year from AMD. A new generation of GPUs would make the Mac look that much better.
It could have been much faster had Apple gone with the previous form factor. The new Mac Pro only has 1 CPU with 12 cores vs 2 CPUs with the possibility of up to 24 cores. Quad Video cards could have been feasible with the extra space gained from removing the optical drives and the addition of dual redundant power supplies and lights out management.
Totally unrealistic for a desktop computer. You would be looking at a minimal of 400 watts for the CPUs and close to 300 watts for each of the GPUs. That is 1600 watts that you won't get reliably from a conventional 120 VAC wall outlet.
You can throw out these asinine configurations but a minutes worth of research would indicate these aren't the markets Apple is after. By the way I do think Apple made a big mistake in the server market trying to go after 1U machines. If Apple could have built a machine to actually handle the configuration you describe above they might have gotten some real server sales. Further that server could be as power hungry as needed as there is an expectation that servers are professionally installed.
I find that utterly impossible to believe, by the way.
Pro users are a completely different breed. They have specific needs and know what they want/need (often to the minute detail) in order to accomplish what ever they set out to do.
Sure, and professionals can never be wrong about what they think they want or need.
In the end they will use whatever tool is best for the job and that is least cumbersome to use.
Yes, I'm familiar with the quotes. They are applicable to John Doe consumers who really don't know what they want. Pro users are a completely different breed. They have specific needs and know what they want/need (often to the minute detail) in order to accomplish what ever they set out to do.
This isn't even true. Many pros go with the crowd and really don't understand the technology at all. In fact as a class I see people that classify themselves as pros to often be stuck in the mud so to speak. They surround themselves with things they know and are often highly resistant to new ways of doing things. This is often why creative organizations turn to younger people not so set in their ways.
In the end they will use whatever tool is best for the job and that is least cumbersome to use.
See above. Pros can be very set in their ways and highly resistant to change even if it would be good for them.
Excessive wires cause clutter, are more prone to failure (yes thunderbolt cables fail often)
I'd like to see supporting info on those TB cable failures. By the way internal devices use cables too.
and are easily unplugged. Internal expansion gets out of the way and is better protected in a neat package.
The idea that internal expansion always leads to less clutter is very debatable. In fact in the industrial world serial busses are used to reduce clutter at processors and simplify wiring. In many class TB attached peripherals will lead to far less clutter at the Mac Pro. Again you need to think different here. If you look at the entire spectrum of pro usage that is possible you will likely find a net win by a large margin that congestion gets reduced at the Mac Pro with TB as the I/O solution.
It is exactly that blend of condescension and arrogance coming from Apple that makes me want to drive down to Cupertino and piss on some asshole's shoes. DAMN it's annoying to get a pat on the head, a roll of the eyes and a "scoot!" pat on the bum as a bunch of smarmy hipsters assure each other that they know better than I what's best for my business.
Coming from you it's just absurd and ridiculous because you obviously have no idea whatsoever what best satisfies another user's computing needs, but coming from Apple it's insulting and irritating. They COULD consult their users, but it seems like they'd rather foster the impression that they're so much smarter, cooler and more aware than everyone else that we'd have to be stupid not to accept every pronouncement and product they make.
Nobody wants to duplicate IBM or Microsoft, but neither would I want a company like Apple to be my only choice for hardware. If I didn't SO prefer OS X over Windows I'd have been gone like a shot two or three years ago.
It is exactly that blend of condescension and arrogance coming from Apple that makes me want to drive down to Cupertino and piss on some asshole's shoes. DAMN it's annoying to get a pat on the head, a roll of the eyes and a "scoot!" pat on the bum as a bunch of smarmy hipsters assure each other that they know better than I what's best for my business.
If Apple’s wrong, don’t buy it. Good products sell, and therefore stay. Bad products don’t.
It’s “condescending” for a company to say its products are the best? You must hate everything Apple (and every other company) does, then.
They COULD consult their users, but it seems like they'd rather foster the impression that they're so much smarter, cooler and more aware than everyone else that we'd have to be stupid not to accept every pronouncement and product they make.
And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software… how many times in the past? Compared to how many times they’ve been right? Not sure why you’re even feeling this in the first place.
Totally unrealistic for a desktop computer. You would be looking at a minimal of 400 watts for the CPUs and close to 300 watts for each of the GPUs. That is 1600 watts that you won't get reliably from a conventional 120 VAC wall outlet.
You can throw out these asinine configurations but a minutes worth of research would indicate these aren't the markets Apple is after. By the way I do think Apple made a big mistake in the server market trying to go after 1U machines. If Apple could have built a machine to actually handle the configuration you describe above they might have gotten some real server sales. Further that server could be as power hungry as needed as there is an expectation that servers are professionally installed.
One or two of these would fit in the space vacated by removing the optical drive bays and current PSU up top in the current Mac Pro:
And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software… how many times in the past? Compared to how many times they’ve been right? Not sure why you’re even feeling this in the first place.
Thanks for playing. You failed when you answered a rhetorical question and you failed by inserting your pathetic personal bias into it (for more product than one).
Well, no, it’s because you, yourself, explicitly proved that you were not in any way familiar with the quotes that you are now claiming you were.
No, I don't find it appropriate to use Ford's quotes as a justification for the glaring shortcomings found in the new Mac Pro. This doesn't explicitly prove anything other then that there is a disconnect between Apple and Pro users needs and wants. Apple should actively consult with Pro users to make sure their needs are met. Pro users are the most vocal and have a strong say in regards to what equipment at large companies. Look how easily they jumped ship when FCPX was released to Premiere or Avid. Not to mention how many more Pro's Apple lost when they cut the Xserve, Xraid, Final Cut Server, and Shake. Pro/Advanced users are usually the ones you go to recommend software or hardware. Loose them and a negative halo effect kicks in.
Thanks for playing. You failed when you answered a rhetorical question and you failed by inserting your pathetic personal bias into it (for more product than one).
The Rokr isn’t an Apple product, by the way.
Rhetorical questions are fun to answer especially when they rile you up. The Rokr was made in cooperation with Apple.
You list many products are responsible for what came after and you fail to mention that entirely failed company called NeXT that didn't gain any traction but is responsible for Mac and iDevice OSes, their frameworks, APIs, SDK, and a million 3rd-party apps. It's odd that you'd mention other vendor's products and products that haven't yet been released. But hey, Apple sucks, right? /s
You list many products are responsible for what came after and you fail to mention that entirely failed company called NeXT that didn't gain any traction but is responsible for Mac and iDevice OSes, their frameworks, APIs, SDK, and a million 3rd-party apps. It's odd that you'd mention other vendor's products and products that haven't yet been released. But hey, Apple sucks, right? /s
I love Apple and their products, but they aren't infallible. They've had failures and success, but I'm not blind when they don't deliver.
I love Apple and their products, but they aren't infallible. They've had failures and success, but I'm not blind when they don't deliver.
"Not delivering" is not what TS asked. He asked "And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software." Many of those weren't either the HW or the SW but the execution, logistics, and other operational aspects that fall under management. As I mentioned mere minutes before reading your list I detailed the issue with MobileMe and it had nothing to do with HW or SW. There were certainly SW issues with MobileMe's implementation but that wasn't the reason you mentioned it.
"Not delivering" is not what TS asked. He asked "And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software." Many of those weren't either the HW or the SW but the execution, logistics, and other operational aspects that fall under management. As I mentioned mere minutes before reading your list I detailed the issue with MobileMe and it had nothing to do with HW or SW. There were certainly SW issues with MobileMe's implementation but that wasn't the reason you mentioned it.
Wrong can have a lot of different meanings. Not meeting/delivering customer expectations, buggy releases, lacking certain features, taking the wrong direction, heading in a certain direction at the wrong time etc...
Wrong can have a lot of different meanings. Not meeting/delivering customer expectations, buggy releases, lacking certain features, taking the wrong direction, heading in a certain direction at the wrong time etc...
That's my point. TS asked HW and SW specifically and you answered with something much more general and therefore outside the scope of his question.
Comments
Any customer can have a Mac Pro any colour that he wants so long as it is black? ;-)
The quote, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.", can be found in the book 'My Life and Work' written by Henry Ford and Samuel Crowther.
A popular quote often attributed to Henry Ford, “If I’d asked people what they wanted, they’d have asked for a faster horse.”, has never been sourced to any primary material.
Yes, I'm familiar with the quotes. They are applicable to John Doe consumers who really don't know what they want. Pro users are a completely different breed. They have specific needs and know what they want/need (often to the minute detail) in order to accomplish what ever they set out to do.
In the end they will use whatever tool is best for the job and that is least cumbersome to use.
Excessive wires cause clutter, are more prone to failure (yes thunderbolt cables fail often) and are easily unplugged. Internal expansion gets out of the way and is better protected in a neat package.
NVidias dominance comes from being first to market with a solution that attracts the attention of early adopters. However the word dominance is clearly aging quickly as many people have abandoned CUDA. That doesn't mean they have abandoned NVidia yet, but there are better performing solutions across the board.
As for the 2.0 OpenCL spec, I haven't looked at it in depth, but it looks like it is evolving along with hardware capabilities. This is another thing to consider, nobody has really gotten to the point where they are delivering the hardware for the type of heterogeneous systems everyone is reaching for. Haswell comes very close and has some really impressive compute scores. Both AMD and NVidia are working hard at advancing their GPUs to handle that heterogeneous future better. However that hardware and software really needs to integrate well with Apples OS.
I mentioned this a few weeks ago but I'm still wondering(hoping) that the big delay for the new Mac Pro is in part GPU related. It is my understanding new Pro hardware will come late this year from AMD. A new generation of GPUs would make the Mac look that much better.
Totally unrealistic for a desktop computer. You would be looking at a minimal of 400 watts for the CPUs and close to 300 watts for each of the GPUs. That is 1600 watts that you won't get reliably from a conventional 120 VAC wall outlet.
You can throw out these asinine configurations but a minutes worth of research would indicate these aren't the markets Apple is after. By the way I do think Apple made a big mistake in the server market trying to go after 1U machines. If Apple could have built a machine to actually handle the configuration you describe above they might have gotten some real server sales. Further that server could be as power hungry as needed as there is an expectation that servers are professionally installed.
Yes, I'm familiar with the quotes.
I find that utterly impossible to believe, by the way.
Sure, and professionals can never be wrong about what they think they want or need.
In the end they will use whatever tool is best for the job and that is least cumbersome to use.
And that tool will be the Mac Pro.
The idea that internal expansion always leads to less clutter is very debatable. In fact in the industrial world serial busses are used to reduce clutter at processors and simplify wiring. In many class TB attached peripherals will lead to far less clutter at the Mac Pro. Again you need to think different here. If you look at the entire spectrum of pro usage that is possible you will likely find a net win by a large margin that congestion gets reduced at the Mac Pro with TB as the I/O solution.
And that tool will be the Mac Pro.
It is exactly that blend of condescension and arrogance coming from Apple that makes me want to drive down to Cupertino and piss on some asshole's shoes. DAMN it's annoying to get a pat on the head, a roll of the eyes and a "scoot!" pat on the bum as a bunch of smarmy hipsters assure each other that they know better than I what's best for my business.
Coming from you it's just absurd and ridiculous because you obviously have no idea whatsoever what best satisfies another user's computing needs, but coming from Apple it's insulting and irritating. They COULD consult their users, but it seems like they'd rather foster the impression that they're so much smarter, cooler and more aware than everyone else that we'd have to be stupid not to accept every pronouncement and product they make.
Nobody wants to duplicate IBM or Microsoft, but neither would I want a company like Apple to be my only choice for hardware. If I didn't SO prefer OS X over Windows I'd have been gone like a shot two or three years ago.
It is exactly that blend of condescension and arrogance coming from Apple that makes me want to drive down to Cupertino and piss on some asshole's shoes. DAMN it's annoying to get a pat on the head, a roll of the eyes and a "scoot!" pat on the bum as a bunch of smarmy hipsters assure each other that they know better than I what's best for my business.
If Apple’s wrong, don’t buy it. Good products sell, and therefore stay. Bad products don’t.
It’s “condescending” for a company to say its products are the best? You must hate everything Apple (and every other company) does, then.
And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software… how many times in the past? Compared to how many times they’ve been right? Not sure why you’re even feeling this in the first place.
Totally unrealistic for a desktop computer. You would be looking at a minimal of 400 watts for the CPUs and close to 300 watts for each of the GPUs. That is 1600 watts that you won't get reliably from a conventional 120 VAC wall outlet.
You can throw out these asinine configurations but a minutes worth of research would indicate these aren't the markets Apple is after. By the way I do think Apple made a big mistake in the server market trying to go after 1U machines. If Apple could have built a machine to actually handle the configuration you describe above they might have gotten some real server sales. Further that server could be as power hungry as needed as there is an expectation that servers are professionally installed.
One or two of these would fit in the space vacated by removing the optical drive bays and current PSU up top in the current Mac Pro:
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Cisco-power-supply-hot-plug-redundant-3000-Watt/2868885.aspx
I do wish Apple would go after enterprise markets.
Sure, and professionals can never be wrong about what they think they want or need.
HP wouldnt sell 24 core machines if there wasn't demand. Pros need the highest level of performance.
And that tool will be the Mac Pro.
Not if Apple is in the pasta business.
Well, no, it’s because you, yourself, explicitly proved that you were not in any way familiar with the quotes that you are now claiming you were.
And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software… how many times in the past? Compared to how many times they’ve been right? Not sure why you’re even feeling this in the first place.
To start in no particular order...
Thanks for playing. You failed when you answered a rhetorical question and you failed by inserting your pathetic personal bias into it (for more product than one).
The Rokr isn’t an Apple product, by the way.
Well, no, it’s because you, yourself, explicitly proved that you were not in any way familiar with the quotes that you are now claiming you were.
No, I don't find it appropriate to use Ford's quotes as a justification for the glaring shortcomings found in the new Mac Pro. This doesn't explicitly prove anything other then that there is a disconnect between Apple and Pro users needs and wants. Apple should actively consult with Pro users to make sure their needs are met. Pro users are the most vocal and have a strong say in regards to what equipment at large companies. Look how easily they jumped ship when FCPX was released to Premiere or Avid. Not to mention how many more Pro's Apple lost when they cut the Xserve, Xraid, Final Cut Server, and Shake. Pro/Advanced users are usually the ones you go to recommend software or hardware. Loose them and a negative halo effect kicks in.
Thanks for playing. You failed when you answered a rhetorical question and you failed by inserting your pathetic personal bias into it (for more product than one).
The Rokr isn’t an Apple product, by the way.
Rhetorical questions are fun to answer especially when they rile you up. The Rokr was made in cooperation with Apple.
You list many products are responsible for what came after and you fail to mention that entirely failed company called NeXT that didn't gain any traction but is responsible for Mac and iDevice OSes, their frameworks, APIs, SDK, and a million 3rd-party apps. It's odd that you'd mention other vendor's products and products that haven't yet been released. But hey, Apple sucks, right? /s
I love Apple and their products, but they aren't infallible. They've had failures and success, but I'm not blind when they don't deliver.
"Not delivering" is not what TS asked. He asked "And they’ve been wrong about hardware and software." Many of those weren't either the HW or the SW but the execution, logistics, and other operational aspects that fall under management. As I mentioned mere minutes before reading your list I detailed the issue with MobileMe and it had nothing to do with HW or SW. There were certainly SW issues with MobileMe's implementation but that wasn't the reason you mentioned it.
Wrong can have a lot of different meanings. Not meeting/delivering customer expectations, buggy releases, lacking certain features, taking the wrong direction, heading in a certain direction at the wrong time etc...
That's all relative.
Bad products that sell: Windows, Samsung, VHS (Betamax was better!), Ford, Spam (you don't want to know what meat is in there *shivers*) etc...