Apple is not holding these festivals to lose money. They are calculated to earn them plenty of money and you can bet it does.
These musicians are providing value to Apple and helping Apple to earn that money. If they have contracts that guarantee them a certain income due to music sales above their usual sales before the concert, then that might be a good deal for each performer. If not then the bands are being conned into gambling with their actual value.
When I was a professional musician it was commonplace for club owners to try to pull all sorts of stupid scams on bands. Smart bands demanded half of their fee before going on and the other half at the first break. No pay no play. It was the entertainers that made the event, not the venue, not the promoter. Generally speaking, the band makes money at the door and the club makes money at the bar.
If Apple wanted to be fair to all of the bands yet didn't want to pay them in advance, Apple could divide all of their iTunes profits for a specified time around that concert and pay the musicians with that. Offering promotional space would need to turn into a specific dollar amount of sales for the bands for it to be a reasonable deal. It would need to at least equal what a band would earn at any comparable festival with actual ticket sales and TV and video sales, along with rebroadcast rights.
Since we really don't know what payment Apple offered to these bands we are just speculating. Offering a band exposure is a big con. If that exposure can't be quantified by previous experience and dollar value then playing without pay is a waste of time and resources.
Would you go to work for a company with the promise that you will get some type of compensation in the future? The business owner can't promise how much you'll get but he thinks it will be worth your time. You won't own part of the business. You also must trust that the business will remain viable and you must trust that the guy is actually planning to pay you if the money comes. Maybe you would do it? If you were part of U2 would you do it? If you were Beyonce would you do it? NO you wouldn't. You have value and you know your value. Apple would also know your value. That is why they asked you. This is Kanye's argument and he is right. It's a matter of perspective and respect for the artists. Apple isn't asking garage bands to perform. They are asking established artists to perform.
If Apple is truly only giving performers advertising space on their site for a while, then they are acting like con artist bar owners who won't pay for the full value of the artists who are performing to make profits for them. Shameful.
Not really. I don't think any of the performers at the iTunes Festival need any more money; they could all retire immediately. If they wish to play for free, it's their choice. If they don't, they're free to decline.
Wow, what a bunch of seriously clueless idiots in this thread.
Did any of you bother to think that these artists made a CHOICE? Nobody knows the exact terms between the artists and Apple, but the artists that play at these festivals sure seemed to think that what they got in return was well worth their time to perform. And these are not bar bands, wannabees or artists nobody has ever heard of looking for a record deal. These are major artists (like Coldplay, Keith Urban or Pit Bull to name a few recent ones).
Why do people have to get upset about a decision an artist made to play at an iTunes Festival? Oh right, I forgot, it has to do with Apple and as usual attracts all the worthless trolls looking for any excuse, no matter how trivial, to find a way to bash something they did.
Wow, what a bunch of seriously clueless idiots in this thread.
Did any of you bother to think that these artists made a CHOICE?
Exactly. Unfortunately, the idiocy isn't isolated to this thread.
As if Keith Urban had a contract with Apple as an indentured servant and Apple changed the rules.
They told his manager "Would kieth like to play- his terms would be xyz" The manager approached kieth. Kieth said "Yes" and signed. So umm- where is the immorality here? It's not like he's a struggling artist who is getting taken advantage of. Dude is married to Nicole Kidman and on American Idol- both secondary to having dozens of #1 songs.
Radio doesn't, but TV does pay. It might be union minimum, but they do get paid.
Besides, that's different than the Apple iTunes Festival concert. On a TV show, a band generally plays 1 or 2 songs tops, specifically to promote their current release. At the Apple iTunes Festival, bands are putting on concerts.
It's not a matter of whether there are a thousand more to take their place. I'm sure there are a thousand more ready to work for free who want the exposure. It's a matter of whether they should have to work for free, especially in an event created by one of the richest companies in the world. It's similar to photography. There are thousands of amateur photographers who think they're as good as pros who would shoot concerts and other such events for free. But pros have to make a living.
Do you work for free? I don't. Aside from volunteering my time for charities, I expect to get paid when I work.
Band are putting on small sets. Do they have to pay the venue or security or any of the set-ups and take-downs they normally do on their own? Basically they are given the opportunity to play for millions of people for free.
Kanye is pretty sickening, really. The guy has like 80 hojillion dollars, and when he agrees to do a concert, knowing up front that it will not be paid in cash, then whines like a the tender-breasted child he is. If he doesn't know that before he agrees to do it, then he's a bigger dumbass than he already seems.
He needs to get kicked in the nards by a Vietnam vet. I don't know why, but a Vietnam vet is a must. The guy needs to fall off a bike and disappear through a time portal to the stone age. Screw him.
Radio doesn't, but TV does pay. It might be union minimum, but they do get paid.
Besides, that's different than the Apple iTunes Festival concert. On a TV show, a band generally plays 1 or 2 songs tops, specifically to promote their current release. At the Apple iTunes Festival, bands are putting on concerts.
It's not a matter of whether there are a thousand more to take their place. I'm sure there are a thousand more ready to work for free who want the exposure. It's a matter of whether they should have to work for free, especially in an event created by one of the richest companies in the world. It's similar to photography. There are thousands of amateur photographers who think they're as good as pros who would shoot concerts and other such events for free. But pros have to make a living.
Do you work for free? I don't. Aside from volunteering my time for charities, I expect to get paid when I work.
Oh wise and powerful entertainment producer, please tell me, when did Tonight Show, Late Night, SNL, Opera, and all the other countless shows start paying any of their "guest"??? Cause that is what they would be doing for all "guest" not just the ones playing music. They don't pay anything, so TV does not pay.
All festivals that I have know of were just that festivals, not concerts. WoodStock, Country Thunder, all of these are NON Paid events that the performers are doing for promoting themselves and their craft, be it music, movies, books, etc.
Bottom line - REGARDLESS of what you, I or anyone else thinks, he agreed to do it, and signed their agreement TO DO IT. No one forced his hand, no one put a gun to his head to sign an agreement to perform at the festival. If he had an issue with that agreement, then he should not signed or agreed to the agreement. Simple. Don't complain about it in public.
Good for Kanye shinging a light on these evil deeds. A few obvious points:
1. Bartering is a moral wrong. It says so in the Bible. Or... something. Also, paying in cash is a moral wrong if the last digit is a 4. And artists should be paid on a Monday or a Tuesday. There are right ways and wrong ways to pay people. Apple should know these rules.
2. What's worse than bartering? Coercion! These artists were clearly FORCED to perform against their will. They did not like the offer Apple made, but they had no choice. This is sickening. As if being a successful music star isn't already hard enough.
3. Did you also know that Apple makes these musicians live in massive dormitories? They eat sleep, and play their music all a single venue, sometimes even performing late into the night. Up to 10,000 of these artist slaves may be encamped in one massive compound. And they have to catch rats for food.
Wonder how long the waiting list is to perform at that festival....just thinking out loud. Kanya must me talking out loud without thinking.
Because cash gives you the option to use your compensation they way YOU want to, not the way the person paying you wants to. What if instead of paying you in cash your employer compensated you with goods and or services from their company? What's the big diff, right? It's compensation, right? Umm, somehow I don't think most people would feel that way. I think Kanye West is the epitome of a meglomaniac, but I do think he has a valid gripe.
What a bad analogy. At open air festivals, artists get to sell tons of merchandise. With iTunes Festivals, listens can click and download albums giving immediate results for the artists. When working for an employer, you have no product you are promoting to sell as a result of working for them.
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/180832/apple-pays-itunes-festival-performers-with-promotion-instead-of-cash-kanye-west-says/40#post_2553717" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span><div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>zoetmb</strong> <a href="/t/180832/apple-pays-itunes-festival-performers-with-promotion-instead-of-cash-kanye-west-says/40#post_2553717"><img src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" class="inlineimg" alt="View Post"/></a><br/><br/><p>Radio doesn't, but TV does pay. It might be union minimum, but they do get paid. </p><p> </p><p>Besides, that's different than the Apple iTunes Festival concert. On a TV show, a band generally plays 1 or 2 songs tops, specifically to promote their current release. At the Apple iTunes Festival, bands are putting on concerts. </p><p> </p><p>It's not a matter of whether there are a thousand more to take their place. I'm sure there are a thousand more ready to work for free who want the exposure. It's a matter of whether they should have to work for free, especially in an event created by one of the richest companies in the world. It's similar to photography. There are thousands of amateur photographers who think they're as good as pros who would shoot concerts and other such events for free. But pros have to make a living. </p><p> </p><p>Do you work for free? I don't. Aside from volunteering my time for charities, I expect to get paid when I work. </p></div></div><p> </p>
<p> </p>
Oh wise and powerful entertainment producer, please tell me, when did Tonight Show, Late Night, SNL, Opera, and all the other countless shows start paying any of their "guest"??? Cause that is what they would be doing for all "guest" not just the ones playing music. They don't pay anything, so TV does not pay.
<p> </p>
Actually guests do get paid for an appearance on a talk show. I believe they get the minimum scale wage per the union contracts.
Not sure about SNL but im sure there is a performance wage.
This is the problem- most of the musicians are not negotiating proper AFM contracts which protect their interests, including wages.
If more musicians understood that a member-driven organization like the AFM has already negotiated contracts in the 1940s with the main record companies, more musicians would be able to negotiate their on AFM contracts rather than having companies like Apple dictate terms to them. Some AFM contracts are international, and even take into consideration future royalties and sales so that all musicians can make an adequate wage based on their talent and skills.
Promotion doesn't cost Apple anything in the whole grand scheme of things; in fact, it assists Apple in selling more high-margin products.
Contrasting Apple's business, Microsoft has already negotiated a contract with the AFM for music placement in videogames.
Getting a paycheck is a start; but it's unfortunate that many musicians these days are willing to give away their talent so Apple can sell iPads and iPhones, and also another ~20% from each iTunes sale.
At least when you do business with Microsoft, musicians rights are observed, and adequate wages are paid based on talent.
Comments
Not really. I don't think any of the performers at the iTunes Festival need any more money; they could all retire immediately. If they wish to play for free, it's their choice. If they don't, they're free to decline.
Wow, what a bunch of seriously clueless idiots in this thread.
Did any of you bother to think that these artists made a CHOICE? Nobody knows the exact terms between the artists and Apple, but the artists that play at these festivals sure seemed to think that what they got in return was well worth their time to perform. And these are not bar bands, wannabees or artists nobody has ever heard of looking for a record deal. These are major artists (like Coldplay, Keith Urban or Pit Bull to name a few recent ones).
Why do people have to get upset about a decision an artist made to play at an iTunes Festival? Oh right, I forgot, it has to do with Apple and as usual attracts all the worthless trolls looking for any excuse, no matter how trivial, to find a way to bash something they did.
Wow, what a bunch of seriously clueless idiots in this thread.
Did any of you bother to think that these artists made a CHOICE?
Exactly. Unfortunately, the idiocy isn't isolated to this thread.
As if Keith Urban had a contract with Apple as an indentured servant and Apple changed the rules.
They told his manager "Would kieth like to play- his terms would be xyz" The manager approached kieth. Kieth said "Yes" and signed. So umm- where is the immorality here? It's not like he's a struggling artist who is getting taken advantage of. Dude is married to Nicole Kidman and on American Idol- both secondary to having dozens of #1 songs.
Band are putting on small sets. Do they have to pay the venue or security or any of the set-ups and take-downs they normally do on their own? Basically they are given the opportunity to play for millions of people for free.
We might if we knew who Kanya is?
He lives in Kenya.
Then it's a 'where' not a 'who'
Canya ken it?
Kanye is pretty sickening, really. The guy has like 80 hojillion dollars, and when he agrees to do a concert, knowing up front that it will not be paid in cash, then whines like a the tender-breasted child he is. If he doesn't know that before he agrees to do it, then he's a bigger dumbass than he already seems.
He needs to get kicked in the nards by a Vietnam vet. I don't know why, but a Vietnam vet is a must. The guy needs to fall off a bike and disappear through a time portal to the stone age. Screw him.
He takes old songs
[VIDEO]
And makes them new again
[VIDEO]
Yes, yes. I was amusing myself.
Radio doesn't, but TV does pay. It might be union minimum, but they do get paid.
Besides, that's different than the Apple iTunes Festival concert. On a TV show, a band generally plays 1 or 2 songs tops, specifically to promote their current release. At the Apple iTunes Festival, bands are putting on concerts.
It's not a matter of whether there are a thousand more to take their place. I'm sure there are a thousand more ready to work for free who want the exposure. It's a matter of whether they should have to work for free, especially in an event created by one of the richest companies in the world. It's similar to photography. There are thousands of amateur photographers who think they're as good as pros who would shoot concerts and other such events for free. But pros have to make a living.
Do you work for free? I don't. Aside from volunteering my time for charities, I expect to get paid when I work.
Oh wise and powerful entertainment producer, please tell me, when did Tonight Show, Late Night, SNL, Opera, and all the other countless shows start paying any of their "guest"??? Cause that is what they would be doing for all "guest" not just the ones playing music. They don't pay anything, so TV does not pay.
All festivals that I have know of were just that festivals, not concerts. WoodStock, Country Thunder, all of these are NON Paid events that the performers are doing for promoting themselves and their craft, be it music, movies, books, etc.
Bottom line - REGARDLESS of what you, I or anyone else thinks, he agreed to do it, and signed their agreement TO DO IT. No one forced his hand, no one put a gun to his head to sign an agreement to perform at the festival. If he had an issue with that agreement, then he should not signed or agreed to the agreement. Simple. Don't complain about it in public.Good for Kanye shinging a light on these evil deeds. A few obvious points:
1. Bartering is a moral wrong. It says so in the Bible. Or... something. Also, paying in cash is a moral wrong if the last digit is a 4. And artists should be paid on a Monday or a Tuesday. There are right ways and wrong ways to pay people. Apple should know these rules.
2. What's worse than bartering? Coercion! These artists were clearly FORCED to perform against their will. They did not like the offer Apple made, but they had no choice. This is sickening. As if being a successful music star isn't already hard enough.
3. Did you also know that Apple makes these musicians live in massive dormitories? They eat sleep, and play their music all a single venue, sometimes even performing late into the night. Up to 10,000 of these artist slaves may be encamped in one massive compound. And they have to catch rats for food.
Wonder how long the waiting list is to perform at that festival....just thinking out loud. Kanya must me talking out loud without thinking.
Quote:
Because cash gives you the option to use your compensation they way YOU want to, not the way the person paying you wants to. What if instead of paying you in cash your employer compensated you with goods and or services from their company? What's the big diff, right? It's compensation, right? Umm, somehow I don't think most people would feel that way. I think Kanye West is the epitome of a meglomaniac, but I do think he has a valid gripe.
What a bad analogy. At open air festivals, artists get to sell tons of merchandise. With iTunes Festivals, listens can click and download albums giving immediate results for the artists. When working for an employer, you have no product you are promoting to sell as a result of working for them.
Actually guests do get paid for an appearance on a talk show. I believe they get the minimum scale wage per the union contracts.
Not sure about SNL but im sure there is a performance wage.
As they say, time is money.
Why complain, your getting a better long term advantage in money and it allows the event to be free.
Maybe the extra exposure in the iTunes store doesn't pay the dividends that were promised? It sounds pretty lame to me.
This is the problem- most of the musicians are not negotiating proper AFM contracts which protect their interests, including wages.
If more musicians understood that a member-driven organization like the AFM has already negotiated contracts in the 1940s with the main record companies, more musicians would be able to negotiate their on AFM contracts rather than having companies like Apple dictate terms to them. Some AFM contracts are international, and even take into consideration future royalties and sales so that all musicians can make an adequate wage based on their talent and skills.
Promotion doesn't cost Apple anything in the whole grand scheme of things; in fact, it assists Apple in selling more high-margin products.
Contrasting Apple's business, Microsoft has already negotiated a contract with the AFM for music placement in videogames.
Getting a paycheck is a start; but it's unfortunate that many musicians these days are willing to give away their talent so Apple can sell iPads and iPhones, and also another ~20% from each iTunes sale.
At least when you do business with Microsoft, musicians rights are observed, and adequate wages are paid based on talent.