Even before launch, Apple Pay the 'player to beat' in mobile payments, Morgan Stanley says

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  • Reply 21 of 66
    blazarblazar Posts: 270member
    additionally, the market MUST listen to apple customers, because we spend more money on everything...

    Wealthy customers are SICK AND TIRED of identity theft issues and stolen credit card related issues. The card companies should have been far more liable for this for the last 10 years. Credit rating agencies are a scam and should be shut down.
  • Reply 22 of 66
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    wwchris wrote: »
    I completely expect the new larger iPads will have NFC built into them so they can become retail terminals for ApplePay. No need to buy some expensive terminals and install them in all your stores, buy iPads and build your own retail associate app that links to your existing inventory and product management systems.

    I'd like to see that happen but this would be a unusual HW inclusion for Apple since it would be for merchants who want to use an iPad a terminal.

    blazar wrote: »
    i want apple pay now... The rest of the systems can go to hell.

    I KNOW that i will use retailers that have apple pay and avoid the ones that do not.

    I dropped walmart almost entirely because they have 30 registers and three of them are open.

    When the NYT did a write up on ?Pay their forum became filed with posters saying how others have had the EXACT SAME THING years before Apple.
  • Reply 23 of 66
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    blazar wrote: »
    The card companies should have been far more liable for this for the last 10 years. Credit rating agencies are a scam and should be shut down.

    I don't understand these two sentences. I don't know of a single card issuer that doesn't protect the user from theft, and I don't know what that has to do with Experian, TransUnion or Equifax rating your credit history patterns.
  • Reply 24 of 66
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,541member

    Another element to the security of Apple's approach - biometric based, but the actual fingerprint not extractable + the credit card (device account number created) securely stored and not extractable + single-use token - is that it takes the weakest link in security out of the picture => the user themselves.  There is no phishing scheme or guessing of passwords that can trick a user into unknowingly compromising themselves (celebrity photo hack).  No simple password or PIN that many persons select that is a huge security risk.  One time setting up of fingerprint + one time importing & verifying your credit/debit cards, and that is it.  Everything then securely stored on the device.

     

    Apple hasn't just made a very good lock - they have also made it very difficult for the users to lose/share/giveaway the key.

     

    Now think of the applications that require such strict security beyond payments - medical information, enterprise use-cases, secure access, etc.  

     

    Now imagine the simplicity and security of a device that is attached to your wrist, and once on you can either secure it one-time with an access code (or TouchID with a paired phone if so equipped).  And as long as that device remains connected to your wrist (as monitored by your heartbeat), it is considered "secured to you" (put device on in morning, secure it, and it is done for the day).  I am hoping that ?Pay works something like that on Apple Watch.   Either way, Apple seems to be thinking quite a few steps ahead of the competition...

  • Reply 25 of 66
    plovellplovell Posts: 819member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wwchris View Post



    "This is why I expect the new iPads to support Apple Pay - not for the NFC part (might be useful in business as a terminal?), but as iPads are much more used for online/e-commerce."



    I completely expect the new larger iPads will have NFC built into them so they can become retail terminals for ApplePay. No need to buy some expensive terminals and install them in all your stores, buy iPads and build your own retail associate app that links to your existing inventory and product management systems.

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    I'd like to see that happen but this would be a unusual HW inclusion for Apple since it would be for merchants who want to use an iPad a terminal.

    I expect that Square will have a new version of its iPad POS holder/device that will include NFC. It hasn't been announced (they've announced chip-reader but not NFC - yet) but I would expect it to be there. It's too good an opportunity to pass up.

  • Reply 26 of 66
    juandljuandl Posts: 230member
    When it comes to 'Wearables' market (that will really take off now with Apple).

    Perhaps after the Watch has appeared. And surely that will make it easy to replace the wallet for most.
    Maybe Apple could come out with the 'iNecklace'. The cheaper and affordable wallet for all.

    Just think of the size of the small iWatch. Without all the 'Haptic' stuff. Without all the apps.
    Just something that hangs on your neck with the small S1 chip that Apple has already created.
    Only the Wifi or Bluetooth needed for Apple Pay to work. (oh Ok. A few songs too)
    The only purpose would be to enable payments at the market, movies or fuel.

    All that for $99. (or less)
    That would make it affordable for the rest of us.
  • Reply 27 of 66
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    plovell wrote: »
    I expect that Square will have a new version of its iPad POS holder/device that will include NFC. It hasn't been announced (they've announced chip-reader but not NFC - yet) but I would expect it to be there. It's too good an opportunity to pass up.

    If I were Apple I think I'd want to push Square out so I'd heavily consider adding NFC to the iPads, which will also strengthen iPad sales and the whole Apple ecosystem.
  • Reply 28 of 66
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,246member
    There was a number of issues with Google Wallet which Apple doesn't have, but the Biggest and why I see business pushing ApplePay is because the low Transaction Fee Apple worked out because of the Hardware security built into the A8. Something no Android phone has even with NFC. From what I hear the ApplePay transaction fee is 1.5% and Apples cut of .005% or whatever tiny fraction is a part of that. A normal Credit card and Google Wallet is the normal 2.8% or so area. Maybe into 3%. Those transaction fee's is why Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target and some others have been working on their own system called CurrentC. When you have thousands of Credit Card Terminals. How many in each store, times how many stores. 2.8% on every transaction is costing them Millions, if not billions. But they pay it and it's that high because of all the fraud.

    You can see some of this when you go to a Gas Station and there's a Credit Price and a Cash price. Arco just charges you a flat out 35 cents per transaction which is worse as $100 of Gas would cost them 2 cents, you're paying 35. Of course businesses would rather be pain in CASH. Then they get all of their money. But still, if people are going to pay with something other then CASH, why not push ApplePay because you'll be saving over 1% for the people that use it. Maybe Wal-Mart and the others will bring back NFC if only for ApplePay & CurrentC. Then you have Apple users and everyone else with CurrentC.
  • Reply 29 of 66
    ibeamibeam Posts: 322member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    It would be unlike Apple to include NFC in the iPad (which I don't think has Passport support, even in iOS 8) as this wouldn't be a consumer-focused inclusion, but I hope they do. The ability to make an iPad (or iPhone) a register to use other NFC-based devices means you don't need some ugly dongle, you get a modern payment solution, and Apple gets to reinforce their ?Pay system with even more devices.



    I could even see Apple setting up a special account system for those that want to make their iDevice an NFC-capable payment receiver.

    While NFC capable iPad for receiving payments would be elegant, I'm pretty sure most merchants would want to take payments from anyone, not just iPhone 6 users, therefore I believe the iPad would need some sort of card swiping dongle anyway.

  • Reply 30 of 66
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post



    No doubt everyone at Google is back at the drawing board seeing how they can copy everything as closely as possible.

     

    That's pretty hysterical that you think that. I can't find one single thing that Apple Pay does that Google Wallet and Google Secure Checkout haven't already been doing. I guess I'll give them credit for fingerprints in place of a passcode, but that's pretty minor and hardware limited. I can, however, find plenty that Google wallet does that Apple Pay does not.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Apple finally make it's want into payments, but to outright ignore what Google has already done and believe they will somehow copy Apple is the summation of what is so wrong with Apple right now and their strategy of blindfolding consumers.

  • Reply 31 of 66
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    ibeam wrote: »
    While NFC capable iPad for receiving payments would be elegant, I'm pretty sure most merchants would want to take payments from anyone, not just iPhone 6 users, therefore I believe the iPad would need some sort of card swiping dongle anyway.

    If the iPad does have NFC and is opened up to allow it to be PoS terminal (which I think would likely require special license from Apple via the App Store) that it would work with all NFC-capable devices, including cards with embedded, passive wireless chips.

    Also having a swiping option for other cards would seem to be needed for at least a couple years but I can see plenty of businesses quickly moving to an NFC-only payment system.
  • Reply 32 of 66
    plovellplovell Posts: 819member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

     

     

    That's pretty hysterical that you think that. I can't find one single thing that Apple Pay does that Google Wallet and Google Secure Checkout haven't already been doing. 

     




    Then you need to read this. As far as I know, Apple is the only company doing it - for the moment.

    http://usa.visa.com/clients-partners/technology-and-innovation/visa-token-service/faqs.jsp?

  • Reply 33 of 66
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by plovell View Post

     



    Then you need to read this. As far as I know, Apple is the only company doing it - for the moment.

    http://usa.visa.com/clients-partners/technology-and-innovation/visa-token-service/faqs.jsp?


     

    Google Wallet has always had tokens.

     

    "Wallet also uses dynamically rotating credentials that change with each transaction and are usable for a single payment only"

    http://www.google.com/wallet/faq.html#tab=faq-security

  • Reply 34 of 66
    plovellplovell Posts: 819member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ibeam View Post

     

    While NFC capable iPad for receiving payments would be elegant, I'm pretty sure most merchants would want to take payments from anyone, not just iPhone 6 users, therefore I believe the iPad would need some sort of card swiping dongle anyway.




    I expect that the updated Square iPad device will have swipe, chip and NFC capability. The existing one did swipe and they've announced chip, but not NFC so far. 

     

    Edit: the plug-in (headphone jack) thingie will be doing swipe and chip, and work for iPhone and iPad. The stand that holds the iPad like a POS device is the one that I expect to have NFC. It would be nice if they could do it in the plug-in but it would be more challenge.

  • Reply 35 of 66
    plovellplovell Posts: 819member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

     

     

    Google Wallet has always had tokens.

     

    "Wallet also uses dynamically rotating credentials that change with each transaction and are usable for a single payment only"

    http://www.google.com/wallet/faq.html#tab=faq-security




    But these are Google tokens. Not bank tokens.

  • Reply 36 of 66
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    nexusphan wrote: »
    That's pretty hysterical that you think that. I can't find one single thing that Apple Pay does that Google Wallet and Google Secure Checkout haven't already been doing. I guess I'll give them credit for fingerprints in place of a passcode, but that's pretty minor and hardware limited. I can, however, find plenty that Google wallet does that Apple Pay does not.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Apple finally make it's want into payments, but to outright ignore what Google has already done and believe they will somehow copy Apple is the summation of what is so wrong with Apple right now and their strategy of blindfolding consumers.

    What ?Pay does is exactly why Google Wallet has not been popular or made waves with the average consumer.

    As noted by the special event, Apple's own website, and every fucking article on the ?Pay:
    1. Apple made deals with the multinationals and financial institutions to incorporate a secure, token-and-pin based system (representational numbers) tied to each device for each card so that a compromised card cannot be used elsewhere, thus making it more secure and reducing theft significantly. Are you saying that Google did this years ago?
    2. Apple made their secure element a separate part of their SoC that does not store the representational card data on the system NAND or is directly accessed by the OS. Are you saying that Google did this years ago? No, storing in the NFC HW that is currently usable by any application for "bumping" crap is not a secure solution. This needs to not be accessible when you enable root privileges on Linux.
    3. Apple made this system both convenient and secure by tying it their Touch ID system (which may also be the exact same place that ?Pay data is stored on the SoC), although you can still your device's passcode. Are you saying that Google did this years ago?

    The thing is, Google can't copy this because Google doesn't have the vertical integration Apple has. They can copy the 1st part, but without the 2nd and 3rd they are not really making it nearly as secure as ?Pay so they aren't likely to get better than card present fees for Android-based devices using NFC. Personally, I hope there is a solution that is tied to Qualcomm and/or other chip makers for Android-based devices because I care about fraud being reduced as a whole.
  • Reply 37 of 66
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by plovell View Post

     



    But these are Google tokens. Not bank tokens.


     

    Yes, which is a good thing. This way, you can use any card from any bank in the world and Google's encrypted tokens handle it. Apple has to make behind the scenes deals with individual card issuers and banks to get the tokens.

  • Reply 38 of 66
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    What ?Pay does is exactly why no Google Wallet has not been popular or made waves with the average consumer.



    As noted by the special event, Apple's own website, and every fucking article on the ?Pay:

    1. Apple made deals with the multinationals and financial institutions to incorporate a secure, token-and-pin based system (representational numbers) tied to each device for each card so that a compromised card cannot be used elsewhere, thus making it more secure and reducing theft significantly. Are you saying that Google did this years ago?

    2. Apple made their secure element a separate part of their SoC that does not store the representational card data on the system NAND or is directly accessed by the OS. Are you saying that Google did this years ago?

    3. Apple made this system both convenient and secure by tying it their Touch ID system (which may also be the exact same place that ?Pay data is stored on the SoC), although you can still your device's passcode. Are you saying that Google did this years ago?


    The thing is, Google can't copy this because Google doesn't have the vertical integration Apple has. They can copy the 1st part, but without the 2nd and 3rd they are not really making it nearly as secure as ?Pay so they aren't likely to get better than card present fees for Android-based devices using NFC. Personally, I hope there is a solution that is tied to Qualcomm and/or other chip makers for Android-based devices because I care about fraud being reduced as a whole.

     

    1.  Google Wallet has had it's own token and pin system that it handles rather than getting third party behind door deals with banks and card issuers and using individual solutions. Which is better? Depends who you ask. In the end, they function identically.

    2.  Google requires a secure element for Google wallet. It was the main reason US carriers were previously blocking Google Wallet from being installed because it required access to the secure element.

    3. I already mentioned the fingerprint as a minor advantage for Apple. That's hardware based and not something Google could (or should) control. A unique PIN on Google Wallet is the same as a PIN for your debit card already and has worked for years. With Google's two-step authentication, it's likely just as secure.

  • Reply 39 of 66
    plovellplovell Posts: 819member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

     

    Yes, which is a good thing. This way, you can use any card from any bank in the world and Google's encrypted tokens handle it. 


    That's good if you like it. I do not, because I do not want Google to have all my credit card numbers in addition to everything else it collects about me. YMMV.


    Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

     

    Apple has to make behind the scenes deals with individual card issuers and banks to get the tokens.


    It's a stretch to claim that using an EMVCo standard amounts to "behind the scenes deals". Surely you can do better than this?

  • Reply 40 of 66

    If Apple also created (multiplatform) hardware to go with this, ApplePay could dominate the entire payment ecosystem. Apple could work with retailers/payees to finance or installment-pay (via, say, the transaction fee structure) to make it more affordable and enable faster adoption upfront (e.g., similar to how US phone companies 'subsidize' handset purchases).

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