I think I recall reading Apple did come up with the technology of putting a substrate of sapphire onto Gorilla Glass though didn't I? I could be wrong.
Apple was awarded several patents regarding sapphire.
So let me see if I understand this. A bunch of grown businessmen entered into a contract with Apple, and now those same businessmen are saying the deal they voluntarily entered into with Apple, their legally binding contractual agreement, was oppressive and burdensome? The sheer stupidity of that claim should be enough to get them tossed out of court moments after they arrive. This is a free country. You think you're getting a raw deal, don't sign the contract. This company was run by clowns. Possibly by clowns who broke the law and are going to jail for insider trading. Apple should just buy the plant. The courts should throw the GT folks in the slammer.
Absolutely. When those reports came out that GTAT executives sold off large amounts of stock just before the company declared bankruptcy, it was obvious what kind of people they are.
If anyone wants to file a complaint with the SEC about the GT CEO's misleading (lying) financial statements and the stock selling by top executives just before the bankruptcy, here's the place:
You keep saying this over and over and I don't think the facts support you. The most likely scenario is that Apple told GTAT they were moving the sapphire screen to next year's iPhone and the first product would be the watch. On the August earnings call the CEO didn't know Apple was going to shit can them. Occam's Razor. Look it up.
The iPhones were already in production on August 26th*, so GTAT's CEO obviously knew well before then that sapphire wasn't going to be used for the screen. The simplest explanation overwhelmingly is that the CEO is a crook.
*on the weekend of September 19th, Apple physically distributed 10 million iPhones.
The iPhones were already in production on August 26th*, so GTAT's CEO obviously knew well before then that sapphire wasn't going to be used for the screen. The simplest explanation overwhelmingly is that the CEO is a crook.
*on the weekend of September 19th, Apple physically distributed 10 million iPhones.
Did you read my post? I said, the most obvious answer is that Apple moved the sapphire screens back a year. Who gives a shit how many iPhones shipped in September. Obviously GTAT knew it wasn't supplying screens for iPhone 6. That doesn't mean his contract was terminated. You must not know anything about manufacturing, contract law, or common sense. The CEO may be an idiot and/or a crook, but there is no reason to assume this from a rosy outlook in August followed by bankruptcy in October. Shit happens. Lying on an earnings call is a stupid accusation. A crook wouldn't do that.
The iPhones were already in production on August 26th*, so GTAT's CEO obviously knew well before then that sapphire wasn't going to be used for the screen. The simplest explanation overwhelmingly is that the CEO is a crook.
*on the weekend of September 19th, Apple physically distributed 10 million iPhones.
BTW, go back and read post #134. Is anyone going to challenge my analysis?
What exactly is GT claiming Apple did to them? GT made a deal with Apple and now they want out because they can't live up to what they agreed to. No one forced them to do business with Apple, did they? They took Apple's money and agreed to perform according to the contract. Now it seems, they knew they wouldn't be able to when they signed the deal. Now follow that up with stock sales by Senior management/ownership and you have the makings of all kinds of SEC, legal and criminal issues. The people running GT appear to have withheld material information about the company's condition. They sold large amounts of stock upon making the deal with Apple. Withholding material information and concealing GT's true condition has left them open to all kinds of SEC violations as well as possible criminal charges. You can be assured there will be several investigations. Apple has nothing to do with any of them other than as a creditor/customer who GT claims they can't pay. It's a shame Bankruptcy law protects them from anything except criminal charges. But one nice thing is the Feds and SEC are not lenient, in this day and age, on individuals and companies pulling shenanigans with stocks. Of all the charges initiated since the 2007 financial debacles, only one person who chose to go to trial has been acquitted.
Just because a deal goes bad doesn't mean that someone screwed up, or lied, or withheld information, or violated SEC laws. Sometimes a business deal doesn't work out because it just doesn't work out. That's why all contracts have a termination clause.
What is clear about this contract is that the termination clause is highly favorable to Apple and termination put GTAT in bankruptcy. They bet the company and failed. Shit happens.
So, does that mean Apple is out the $439 million they've already paid GTAT??
The contract is sealed by the court so we aren't going to find out. However, given how well Apple negotiated its contract, I would guess that Apple's loans have been secured by the equipment. Normally a creditor would get $0.10 on the dollar for the equipment. If the equipment is liquidated and the factory shut down, Apple might recover like $50 million.
However, what if Apple takes possession of the equipment and hires someone else to run the factory for them? Apple already owns the building. Apple could make out like a bandit. If GTAT breached the contract, Apple probably has a right under the contract to have a third party make sapphire using GTAT technology.
Next year's iPhone may be called iPhone 6S where "s" is for "sapphire" shipped from Arizona.
Absolutely. When those reports came out that GTAT executives sold off large amounts of stock just before the company declared bankruptcy, it was obvious what kind of people they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth
If anyone wants to file a complaint with the SEC about the GT CEO's misleading (lying) financial statements and the stock selling by top executives just before the bankruptcy, here's the place:
You don't have to be a shareholder or have suffered a direct financial loss.
The stock was scheduled for sale six months prior and in accordance with SEC rules for corporate insiders. Ya'll are wasting your time filing a complaint with the SEC.
You're not wrong, but you are glossing over actions of the GT principals that ARE being investigated. Things like stock sales, insider information, trading on nonpublic disclosures and the timing of those actions in relation to their contract with Apple. While it may turn out that it is simply a case of appearance rather than a criminal or SEC reality, it certainly warrants investigation.
GT made a deal and in their eagerness to hitch their wagon to Apple, it appears they made a bad one. Based on what you have said I think it is safe to say some very bad decisions were made by GT senior management/ownership. Part of my point is they made those decisions voluntarily. They were not forced. They had to have been on the precipice of bankruptcy prior to the deal with Apple if they teetered over not so long after the deal was done.
People are insinuating all kinds of conspiracy garbage about Apple's strategy/deal with GT. From I can tell and I have some, but not a lot of experience in this, the protections Apple built into their deal are not at all unusual and were smart business for them. I am sure they are going to eat plenty on this one. As a creditor (the biggest one?) they may have some influence over the proceedings. Who knows if operating the facility or financing someone else's operation of it makes sense. The technology seems to have enough issues to make that questionable. I'm sure as there are advancements sapphire is likely to occupy a bigger role in mobile devices, but right now it just doesn't seem ready to be a bigger component.
Oh yeah, bad deal,, you took millions in up front money on the contract from Apple, had a contrct with them that any business would kill for, stole the front money, sold the stock off, raped the company now you want to file bankruptcy and blame Apple... I got it,,, throw their a$$es in jail, give the plant and anything left to Apple and maybe they can save the workers jobs!!!!
You're not wrong, but you are glossing over actions of the GT principals that ARE being investigated. Things like stock sales, insider information, trading on nonpublic disclosures and the timing of those actions in relation to their contract with Apple. While it may turn out that it is simply a case of appearance rather than a criminal or SEC reality, it certainly warrants investigation.
GT made a deal and in their eagerness to hitch their wagon to Apple, it appears they made a bad one. Based on what you have said I think it is safe to say some very bad decisions were made by GT senior management/ownership. Part of my point is they made those decisions voluntarily. They were not forced. They had to have been on the precipice of bankruptcy prior to the deal with Apple if they teetered over not so long after the deal was done.
People are insinuating all kinds of conspiracy garbage about Apple's strategy/deal with GT. From I can tell and I have some, but not a lot of experience in this, the protections Apple built into their deal are not at all unusual and were smart business for them. I am sure they are going to eat plenty on this one. As a creditor (the biggest one?) they may have some influence over the proceedings. Who knows if operating the facility or financing someone else's operation of it makes sense. The technology seems to have enough issues to make that questionable. I'm sure as there are advancements sapphire is likely to occupy a bigger role in mobile devices, but right now it just doesn't seem ready to be a bigger component.
It just bothers me that people are assuming this guy is a crook based on facts that suggest otherwise. Selling stock using the SEC rules does not make someone a crook.
I have a lot of experience with license agreements (drafting them and negotiating them). And yes, performance clauses, securing loans with the equipment, etc. are VERY common terms and expected in a license agreement. There isn't really any way to know Apple's intentions. They may have intended for the bankruptcy to happen from the very start, or they may just be taking advantage of good contract terms, or they may be just trying to salvage a deal that went bad.
Finally, just because the deal went bad doesn't make GTAT executive bad people or even incompetent. Like I said, shit happens in business.
This reminds me of my high school days when I slacked and got a 'C' but told mom that the teacher was an a-hole. And yes, 'harsh and oppressive'. Mom gave me a bigger spank for not owning up.
What makes you think that he didn't believe everything was great as of August 26th? Let's assume for a second that GTAT is a piece of shit company and didn't hit their quality target. If you are Apple, what do you do? Create a maelstrom about a supplier weeks before you launch your product. Of course not. Instead, you tell your dumb shit supplier that you are pushing the launch of sapphire back a year and tell them to prepare for production of the watch.
Your posts ASSume that Apple terminated the contract at the same time they cancelled orders for iPhone 6 displays. However, that's not likely how Apple would do it. Secondly, maybe the plan all along was for sapphire displays on iPhone 6S (where "s" stands for "sapphire").
So there you have it, two perfectly reasonable scenarios where the CEO could have been telling the truth on his earnings report. Personally, I don't think it makes any sense for the CEO to lie on August 26. No question this was going to end in litigation. Would he really lie about it in a conference call? For what? To sell $160K in stock? Really? Makes no sense.
I disagree with your comment on the CEO.
Here's a brief timeline:
- 11/04/13 Apple/GTAT announced joint agreement to build Sapphire
- 08/04/14 GTAT Q2 earning release:
Fully diluted non-GAAP earnings per share of $0.12 to $0.18, the higher end of the previously provided guidance range reflecting an expected change in mix and more favorable gross margins in the second half of the year.
CEO comment: "The fourth prepayment from Apple is contingent upon the achievement of certain operational targets by GT. GT expects to achieve these targets and receive the final $139 million prepayment by the end of October 2014."
09/08/14 GTAT CEO sold $160,000 of GTAT shares at $17.38. Since 02/14, he had sold $10 millions worth of stocks.
- 09/09/14 Apple announced Sapphire-less iPhone 6
- 10/06/14 GTGT filed for bankruptcy knowing or anticipating that Apple would withhold the final $139 millions payment.
My point is:
If a media company like AI knew that iPhone 6 was in it's final stage before mass production on 8/13/14, doesn't common sense dictates that a partner company's CEO had to know that it's Sapphire glass is not in the game when he painted that rosy picture at the 8/4/14 earning release?!
- 11/04/13 Apple/GTAT announced joint agreement to build Sapphire
- 08/04/14 GTAT Q2 earning release:
Fully diluted non-GAAP earnings per share of $0.12 to $0.18, the higher end of the previously provided guidance range reflecting an expected change in mix and more favorable gross margins in the second half of the year.
CEO comment: "The fourth prepayment from Apple is contingent upon the achievement of certain operational targets by GT. GT expects to achieve these targets and receive the final $139 million prepayment by the end of October 2014."
- 08/13/14 AI reported 'iPhone 6 in final stage before mass production'
09/08/14 GTAT CEO sold $160,000 of GTAT shares at $17.38. Since 02/14, he had sold $10 millions worth of stocks.
- 09/09/14 Apple announced Sapphire-less iPhone 6
- 10/06/14 GTGT filed for bankruptcy knowing or anticipating that Apple would withhold the final $139 millions payment.
My point is:
If a media company like AI knew that iPhone 6 was in it's final stage before mass production on 8/13/14, doesn't common sense dictates that a partner company's CEO had to know that it's Sapphire glass is not in the game when he painted that rosy picture at the 8/4/14 earning release?!
I say nail that crook!
I have seen many people post referencing Margolis, the analyst with "knowledge" of all things GTAT and iPhone screens.
I think that we will find that he was quite a bit less knowledgeable than he portrayed. I almost get the impression that he had come to "believe his own meme" that Apple would have sapphire screens available for the iPhone 6, even while the evidence did not support it. This isn't to suggest that Apple didn't want to use it, but merely that production benchmarks were no where near where they needed to be for production.
Comments
Apple was awarded several patents regarding sapphire.
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/displays-sapphire/
Thanks, I saw that you posted that link after I replied to [@]digitalclips[/@].
I already posted this
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/182746/apple-sapphire-partner-gt-advanced-seeks-to-wind-down-plant-operations/40
From previous post: Perhaps Nancy Pelosi was involved and insisted on signing the agreement so they could know what was in it LOL
More likely Dick Cheney was involved so he could screw Arizona the same way he screwed the U.S. with Haliburton.
So let me see if I understand this. A bunch of grown businessmen entered into a contract with Apple, and now those same businessmen are saying the deal they voluntarily entered into with Apple, their legally binding contractual agreement, was oppressive and burdensome? The sheer stupidity of that claim should be enough to get them tossed out of court moments after they arrive. This is a free country. You think you're getting a raw deal, don't sign the contract. This company was run by clowns. Possibly by clowns who broke the law and are going to jail for insider trading. Apple should just buy the plant. The courts should throw the GT folks in the slammer.
Absolutely. When those reports came out that GTAT executives sold off large amounts of stock just before the company declared bankruptcy, it was obvious what kind of people they are.
You keep saying this over and over and I don't think the facts support you. The most likely scenario is that Apple told GTAT they were moving the sapphire screen to next year's iPhone and the first product would be the watch. On the August earnings call the CEO didn't know Apple was going to shit can them. Occam's Razor. Look it up.
The iPhones were already in production on August 26th*, so GTAT's CEO obviously knew well before then that sapphire wasn't going to be used for the screen. The simplest explanation overwhelmingly is that the CEO is a crook.
*on the weekend of September 19th, Apple physically distributed 10 million iPhones.
The iPhones were already in production on August 26th*, so GTAT's CEO obviously knew well before then that sapphire wasn't going to be used for the screen. The simplest explanation overwhelmingly is that the CEO is a crook.
*on the weekend of September 19th, Apple physically distributed 10 million iPhones.
Did you read my post? I said, the most obvious answer is that Apple moved the sapphire screens back a year. Who gives a shit how many iPhones shipped in September. Obviously GTAT knew it wasn't supplying screens for iPhone 6. That doesn't mean his contract was terminated. You must not know anything about manufacturing, contract law, or common sense. The CEO may be an idiot and/or a crook, but there is no reason to assume this from a rosy outlook in August followed by bankruptcy in October. Shit happens. Lying on an earnings call is a stupid accusation. A crook wouldn't do that.
The iPhones were already in production on August 26th*, so GTAT's CEO obviously knew well before then that sapphire wasn't going to be used for the screen. The simplest explanation overwhelmingly is that the CEO is a crook.
*on the weekend of September 19th, Apple physically distributed 10 million iPhones.
BTW, go back and read post #134. Is anyone going to challenge my analysis?
What exactly is GT claiming Apple did to them? GT made a deal with Apple and now they want out because they can't live up to what they agreed to. No one forced them to do business with Apple, did they? They took Apple's money and agreed to perform according to the contract. Now it seems, they knew they wouldn't be able to when they signed the deal. Now follow that up with stock sales by Senior management/ownership and you have the makings of all kinds of SEC, legal and criminal issues. The people running GT appear to have withheld material information about the company's condition. They sold large amounts of stock upon making the deal with Apple. Withholding material information and concealing GT's true condition has left them open to all kinds of SEC violations as well as possible criminal charges. You can be assured there will be several investigations. Apple has nothing to do with any of them other than as a creditor/customer who GT claims they can't pay. It's a shame Bankruptcy law protects them from anything except criminal charges. But one nice thing is the Feds and SEC are not lenient, in this day and age, on individuals and companies pulling shenanigans with stocks. Of all the charges initiated since the 2007 financial debacles, only one person who chose to go to trial has been acquitted.
Just because a deal goes bad doesn't mean that someone screwed up, or lied, or withheld information, or violated SEC laws. Sometimes a business deal doesn't work out because it just doesn't work out. That's why all contracts have a termination clause.
What is clear about this contract is that the termination clause is highly favorable to Apple and termination put GTAT in bankruptcy. They bet the company and failed. Shit happens.
So, does that mean Apple is out the $439 million they've already paid GTAT??
The contract is sealed by the court so we aren't going to find out. However, given how well Apple negotiated its contract, I would guess that Apple's loans have been secured by the equipment. Normally a creditor would get $0.10 on the dollar for the equipment. If the equipment is liquidated and the factory shut down, Apple might recover like $50 million.
However, what if Apple takes possession of the equipment and hires someone else to run the factory for them? Apple already owns the building. Apple could make out like a bandit. If GTAT breached the contract, Apple probably has a right under the contract to have a third party make sapphire using GTAT technology.
Next year's iPhone may be called iPhone 6S where "s" is for "sapphire" shipped from Arizona.
Absolutely. When those reports came out that GTAT executives sold off large amounts of stock just before the company declared bankruptcy, it was obvious what kind of people they are.
The stock was scheduled for sale six months prior and in accordance with SEC rules for corporate insiders. Ya'll are wasting your time filing a complaint with the SEC.
You're not wrong, but you are glossing over actions of the GT principals that ARE being investigated. Things like stock sales, insider information, trading on nonpublic disclosures and the timing of those actions in relation to their contract with Apple. While it may turn out that it is simply a case of appearance rather than a criminal or SEC reality, it certainly warrants investigation.
GT made a deal and in their eagerness to hitch their wagon to Apple, it appears they made a bad one. Based on what you have said I think it is safe to say some very bad decisions were made by GT senior management/ownership. Part of my point is they made those decisions voluntarily. They were not forced. They had to have been on the precipice of bankruptcy prior to the deal with Apple if they teetered over not so long after the deal was done.
People are insinuating all kinds of conspiracy garbage about Apple's strategy/deal with GT. From I can tell and I have some, but not a lot of experience in this, the protections Apple built into their deal are not at all unusual and were smart business for them. I am sure they are going to eat plenty on this one. As a creditor (the biggest one?) they may have some influence over the proceedings. Who knows if operating the facility or financing someone else's operation of it makes sense. The technology seems to have enough issues to make that questionable. I'm sure as there are advancements sapphire is likely to occupy a bigger role in mobile devices, but right now it just doesn't seem ready to be a bigger component.
You're not wrong, but you are glossing over actions of the GT principals that ARE being investigated. Things like stock sales, insider information, trading on nonpublic disclosures and the timing of those actions in relation to their contract with Apple. While it may turn out that it is simply a case of appearance rather than a criminal or SEC reality, it certainly warrants investigation.
GT made a deal and in their eagerness to hitch their wagon to Apple, it appears they made a bad one. Based on what you have said I think it is safe to say some very bad decisions were made by GT senior management/ownership. Part of my point is they made those decisions voluntarily. They were not forced. They had to have been on the precipice of bankruptcy prior to the deal with Apple if they teetered over not so long after the deal was done.
People are insinuating all kinds of conspiracy garbage about Apple's strategy/deal with GT. From I can tell and I have some, but not a lot of experience in this, the protections Apple built into their deal are not at all unusual and were smart business for them. I am sure they are going to eat plenty on this one. As a creditor (the biggest one?) they may have some influence over the proceedings. Who knows if operating the facility or financing someone else's operation of it makes sense. The technology seems to have enough issues to make that questionable. I'm sure as there are advancements sapphire is likely to occupy a bigger role in mobile devices, but right now it just doesn't seem ready to be a bigger component.
It just bothers me that people are assuming this guy is a crook based on facts that suggest otherwise. Selling stock using the SEC rules does not make someone a crook.
I have a lot of experience with license agreements (drafting them and negotiating them). And yes, performance clauses, securing loans with the equipment, etc. are VERY common terms and expected in a license agreement. There isn't really any way to know Apple's intentions. They may have intended for the bankruptcy to happen from the very start, or they may just be taking advantage of good contract terms, or they may be just trying to salvage a deal that went bad.
Finally, just because the deal went bad doesn't make GTAT executive bad people or even incompetent. Like I said, shit happens in business.
I disagree with your comment on the CEO.
Here's a brief timeline:
- 11/04/13 Apple/GTAT announced joint agreement to build Sapphire
- 08/04/14 GTAT Q2 earning release:
Fully diluted non-GAAP earnings per share of $0.12 to $0.18, the higher end of the previously provided guidance range reflecting an expected change in mix and more favorable gross margins in the second half of the year.
CEO comment: "The fourth prepayment from Apple is contingent upon the achievement of certain operational targets by GT. GT expects to achieve these targets and receive the final $139 million prepayment by the end of October 2014."
- 08/13/14 AI reported 'iPhone 6 in final stage before mass production'
http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/14/08/13/rumor-apples-iphone-6-at-final-stage-before-mass-production-on-track-for-sept-9-debut
09/08/14 GTAT CEO sold $160,000 of GTAT shares at $17.38. Since 02/14, he had sold $10 millions worth of stocks.
- 09/09/14 Apple announced Sapphire-less iPhone 6
- 10/06/14 GTGT filed for bankruptcy knowing or anticipating that Apple would withhold the final $139 millions payment.
My point is:
If a media company like AI knew that iPhone 6 was in it's final stage before mass production on 8/13/14, doesn't common sense dictates that a partner company's CEO had to know that it's Sapphire glass is not in the game when he painted that rosy picture at the 8/4/14 earning release?!
I say nail that crook!
I disagree with your comment on the CEO.
Here's a brief timeline:
- 11/04/13 Apple/GTAT announced joint agreement to build Sapphire
- 08/04/14 GTAT Q2 earning release:
Fully diluted non-GAAP earnings per share of $0.12 to $0.18, the higher end of the previously provided guidance range reflecting an expected change in mix and more favorable gross margins in the second half of the year.
CEO comment: "The fourth prepayment from Apple is contingent upon the achievement of certain operational targets by GT. GT expects to achieve these targets and receive the final $139 million prepayment by the end of October 2014."
- 08/13/14 AI reported 'iPhone 6 in final stage before mass production'
http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/14/08/13/rumor-apples-iphone-6-at-final-stage-before-mass-production-on-track-for-sept-9-debut
09/08/14 GTAT CEO sold $160,000 of GTAT shares at $17.38. Since 02/14, he had sold $10 millions worth of stocks.
- 09/09/14 Apple announced Sapphire-less iPhone 6
- 10/06/14 GTGT filed for bankruptcy knowing or anticipating that Apple would withhold the final $139 millions payment.
My point is:
If a media company like AI knew that iPhone 6 was in it's final stage before mass production on 8/13/14, doesn't common sense dictates that a partner company's CEO had to know that it's Sapphire glass is not in the game when he painted that rosy picture at the 8/4/14 earning release?!
I say nail that crook!
I have seen many people post referencing Margolis, the analyst with "knowledge" of all things GTAT and iPhone screens.
I think that we will find that he was quite a bit less knowledgeable than he portrayed. I almost get the impression that he had come to "believe his own meme" that Apple would have sapphire screens available for the iPhone 6, even while the evidence did not support it. This isn't to suggest that Apple didn't want to use it, but merely that production benchmarks were no where near where they needed to be for production.