The biggest difference in drive performance has less to do with the bus but far more to do with rotation speed. Combine high rpm drives with a decent cache implementation and you have the foundations of a good fast drive setup.
SCSI RAID setups are more scalable and generally more reliable though there is much less difference between good IDE drives and SCSI drives than there used to be. Cost is the biggest difference. IDE drives provide a great deal of storage and speed cheaply.
Why Apple uses "only' an ATA66 bus instead of the ATA100/133 is a mystery. As previously posted almost every cheapo PC board has ATA100 on it. In fact, just this afternoon I saw a new ECS mainboard with integrated video, Lan, sound, 4 USB 1.1, modem, even the CPU (a VIA C3 1GHz) was integrated!! The computer was fully equipped with all slots empty. It has two ATA-100 buses. It retails for about $100US.
I wouldn't actually use this type of board but the ATA-100 controller is the same found on high end boards. It probably costs about $1.25.
So if hard drive performance is lacking, in my opinion buy higher rpm drives.
Is this a serious question, or is it intended to be a comment that the expansion cards offered are primarily for RAID applications, or is it a comment that the cards are not Apple products?
Is this a serious question, or is it intended to be a comment that the expansion cards offered are primarily for RAID applications, or is it a comment that the cards are not Apple products?
powerdoc said ATA/133 cards a build to order option at the apple store. I don't see them anywhere. that's why I asked. I'm not sure what you're talking about
I found the SCSI RAID card BTO option, under the Hard Drive menu, but I can't find the ATA-133 card option. Seems odd to fill a PCI slot for that feature, when Apple could just change a chip on their mobo and offer it to everyone for little cost.
I think this thread can be summed up as, Apple's current mobos are cheap and old-tech, and Apple is dragging their feet on updating them, but then they finally do, they will be ok but not leading edge, which means that within a year they will be totally outdated, cheap, low-tech boards just like the current mobos are.
Apple cuts corners to boost margins, which they desperately need to stay afloat. Sure, the difference between an ata-66 and an ata-133 controller isn't much, but add up all the things on Apple's mobo's that are cheaper, and it's a significant boost to their margins. The ONLY way this will ever change is if Apple can boost their volume of sales, but this is difficult to do with cheap mobos. They are in a catch-22 and it's going to be hell getting out of it, even with awesome computers like th new iMac.
powerdoc said ATA/133 cards a build to order option at the apple store. I don't see them anywhere. that's why I asked. I'm not sure what you're talking about</strong><hr></blockquote>
Install the Sonnet Tempo RAID133 and high-performance ATA hard drives into your Power Mac G4 to create fast hardware RAID volumes. The Tempo RAID133 installs easily into one of your Power Mc G4's PCI slots, and includes two cables to support up to four drives. Or get the ACARD PCI Ultra ATA-133 IDE RAID adapter for the Power Mac G4.
(Edit based on reply): OK, I understand your point now.
LOL, that' not BTO. Sure you can buy an ATA-133 card aftermarket for a Powermac, but Apple doesn't control the availability of those, consumer demand does.
But from that link, I especially liked this part:
[quote]Double your desktop area
Want more room to work in? Just add a second display. You can have two 22? Apple Cinema Displays, or combine a 22? Apple Cinema Display with a 15? or 17? Studio Display. Either way, all you need is a DVI video card like the ATI Radeon 32 MB PCI Card Mac Edition and the DVIator from Dr. Bott. Just open the Power Mac G4's side door, slip in the PCI card and connect the DVIator, and you're ready to go.<hr></blockquote>
That's what I need, is TWO Apple Cinema Displays!! Hot damn, that would be a hell of a setup! Can you imagine that much LCD area on your desktop? Insane!
<strong>neither of those are build to order like the original post said.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry for this imprecision, i find this document in the link above, i did not check what was said in the BTO. I was thinking if Apple talk ot that kind of card in the Extension of powermac, it's means they sell it. Of course it's not the case, they speak also of matrox rtc card and they don't sell it eather.
That's it, I can't stand it anymore. For sucha community of smart asses you guys really dissapoint. Thus, in reponse to the thread title, PowerMacs aren't using ATA-133 right now! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
so... (and please excuse any ignorance on my part)
I'm assuming that Firewire can handle more throughput than ATA 66 (100, or 133 for that matter) ... correct?
so ... once "IBM, WD, Maxtor etc. get around to making some nice 7200rev copper FireWire drives" ... then (tower owners) can all start installing internal firewire drives via the internal firewire port.
<strong>so... (and please excuse any ignorance on my part)
I'm assuming that Firewire can handle more throughput than ATA 66 (100, or 133 for that matter) ... correct?
so ... once "IBM, WD, Maxtor etc. get around to making some nice 7200rev copper FireWire drives" ... then (tower owners) can all start installing internal firewire drives via the internal firewire port.
no Firewire is slower than all of em even ATA/66. Firewire currently has a theoretical peak of 50MB/sec (400mb/sec). Firewire 2 is suppose to increase to 100MB/sec (800mb/sec) or possibly even 3.2gb/sec using fiber optic cabling. but 800 is the most practical.
firewire isn't a replacement for ATA unfortunately
<strong>firewire isn't a replacement for ATA unfortunately</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at the moment but it would be the ideal replacement in future.
ATA can support 2 devices per channel, comes in 66-133MB/s variants, is unshielded (so you have to use ribbon cables... ugh), and has no bus power supply.
Firewire can support 63 (64 if you count the computer as a device) devices a channel, comes in 50-100MB/s variants, is shielded and only 6 pin (so you get thin, round cables for better internal airflow... in other words less/less noisy fans) and has a buttload of bus power. It also has low CPU overhead. And, if you put multiple computers and devices on the same channel, multiple computers can share the same hard disk even if the hard disk is internal! It is a f'ing ideal replacement for ATA.
Barto
PS Fiber Firewire will be an ideal replacement for SCSI... as flexible as FireWire but faster than SCSI-320!
Not at the moment but it would be the ideal replacement in future.
(...)
Firewire can support 63 (64 if you count the computer as a device) devices a channel, comes in 50-100MB/s variants, is shielded and only 6 pin (so you get thin, round cables for better internal airflow... in other words less/less noisy fans) and has a buttload of bus power. It also has low CPU overhead.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, guess Serial ATA is what you're really looking for (as am I, btw)...
[quote]<strong>
And, if you put multiple computers and devices on the same channel, multiple computers can share the same hard disk even if the hard disk is internal!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This will bring much more problems (arbitration, etc.) than benefits. There's a reason why only one of the devices on a SCSI chain should be a host controller, or why you shouldn't connect a FireWire harddisk to more than one computer.
Comments
May be we will se ATA 133 on the new mobo : with the G5 ?
<strong>ATA 133 card are a BTO option on the apple store.
May be we will se ATA 133 on the new mobo : with the G5 ?
they are? where?
SCSI RAID setups are more scalable and generally more reliable though there is much less difference between good IDE drives and SCSI drives than there used to be. Cost is the biggest difference. IDE drives provide a great deal of storage and speed cheaply.
Why Apple uses "only' an ATA66 bus instead of the ATA100/133 is a mystery. As previously posted almost every cheapo PC board has ATA100 on it. In fact, just this afternoon I saw a new ECS mainboard with integrated video, Lan, sound, 4 USB 1.1, modem, even the CPU (a VIA C3 1GHz) was integrated!! The computer was fully equipped with all slots empty. It has two ATA-100 buses. It retails for about $100US.
I wouldn't actually use this type of board but the ATA-100 controller is the same found on high end boards. It probably costs about $1.25.
So if hard drive performance is lacking, in my opinion buy higher rpm drives.
<strong>
they are? where?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is this a serious question, or is it intended to be a comment that the expansion cards offered are primarily for RAID applications, or is it a comment that the cards are not Apple products?
[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Skipjack ]</p>
<strong>
Is this a serious question, or is it intended to be a comment that the expansion cards offered are primarily for RAID applications, or is it a comment that the cards are not Apple products?
[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Skipjack ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
powerdoc said ATA/133 cards a build to order option at the apple store. I don't see them anywhere. that's why I asked. I'm not sure what you're talking about
I think this thread can be summed up as, Apple's current mobos are cheap and old-tech, and Apple is dragging their feet on updating them, but then they finally do, they will be ok but not leading edge, which means that within a year they will be totally outdated, cheap, low-tech boards just like the current mobos are.
Apple cuts corners to boost margins, which they desperately need to stay afloat. Sure, the difference between an ata-66 and an ata-133 controller isn't much, but add up all the things on Apple's mobo's that are cheaper, and it's a significant boost to their margins. The ONLY way this will ever change is if Apple can boost their volume of sales, but this is difficult to do with cheap mobos. They are in a catch-22 and it's going to be hell getting out of it, even with awesome computers like th new iMac.
<strong>
powerdoc said ATA/133 cards a build to order option at the apple store. I don't see them anywhere. that's why I asked. I'm not sure what you're talking about</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.apple.com/powermac/expansion.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/powermac/expansion.html</a>;
Go RAIDers
Install the Sonnet Tempo RAID133 and high-performance ATA hard drives into your Power Mac G4 to create fast hardware RAID volumes. The Tempo RAID133 installs easily into one of your Power Mc G4's PCI slots, and includes two cables to support up to four drives. Or get the ACARD PCI Ultra ATA-133 IDE RAID adapter for the Power Mac G4.
(Edit based on reply): OK, I understand your point now.
[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Skipjack ]</p>
But from that link, I especially liked this part:
[quote]Double your desktop area
Want more room to work in? Just add a second display. You can have two 22? Apple Cinema Displays, or combine a 22? Apple Cinema Display with a 15? or 17? Studio Display. Either way, all you need is a DVI video card like the ATI Radeon 32 MB PCI Card Mac Edition and the DVIator from Dr. Bott. Just open the Power Mac G4's side door, slip in the PCI card and connect the DVIator, and you're ready to go.<hr></blockquote>
That's what I need, is TWO Apple Cinema Displays!! Hot damn, that would be a hell of a setup! Can you imagine that much LCD area on your desktop? Insane!
<strong>neither of those are build to order like the original post said.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry for this imprecision, i find this document in the link above, i did not check what was said in the BTO. I was thinking if Apple talk ot that kind of card in the Extension of powermac, it's means they sell it. Of course it's not the case, they speak also of matrox rtc card and they don't sell it eather.
I'm assuming that Firewire can handle more throughput than ATA 66 (100, or 133 for that matter) ... correct?
so ... once "IBM, WD, Maxtor etc. get around to making some nice 7200rev copper FireWire drives" ... then (tower owners) can all start installing internal firewire drives via the internal firewire port.
.. correct? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>so... (and please excuse any ignorance on my part)
I'm assuming that Firewire can handle more throughput than ATA 66 (100, or 133 for that matter) ... correct?
so ... once "IBM, WD, Maxtor etc. get around to making some nice 7200rev copper FireWire drives" ... then (tower owners) can all start installing internal firewire drives via the internal firewire port.
.. correct? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
no Firewire is slower than all of em even ATA/66. Firewire currently has a theoretical peak of 50MB/sec (400mb/sec). Firewire 2 is suppose to increase to 100MB/sec (800mb/sec) or possibly even 3.2gb/sec using fiber optic cabling. but 800 is the most practical.
firewire isn't a replacement for ATA unfortunately
It could be. It may be a little expensive but only at first.
<strong>firewire isn't a replacement for ATA unfortunately</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at the moment but it would be the ideal replacement in future.
ATA can support 2 devices per channel, comes in 66-133MB/s variants, is unshielded (so you have to use ribbon cables... ugh), and has no bus power supply.
Firewire can support 63 (64 if you count the computer as a device) devices a channel, comes in 50-100MB/s variants, is shielded and only 6 pin (so you get thin, round cables for better internal airflow... in other words less/less noisy fans) and has a buttload of bus power. It also has low CPU overhead. And, if you put multiple computers and devices on the same channel, multiple computers can share the same hard disk even if the hard disk is internal! It is a f'ing ideal replacement for ATA.
Barto
PS Fiber Firewire will be an ideal replacement for SCSI... as flexible as FireWire but faster than SCSI-320!
<strong>
Not at the moment but it would be the ideal replacement in future.
(...)
Firewire can support 63 (64 if you count the computer as a device) devices a channel, comes in 50-100MB/s variants, is shielded and only 6 pin (so you get thin, round cables for better internal airflow... in other words less/less noisy fans) and has a buttload of bus power. It also has low CPU overhead.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, guess Serial ATA is what you're really looking for (as am I, btw)...
[quote]<strong>
And, if you put multiple computers and devices on the same channel, multiple computers can share the same hard disk even if the hard disk is internal!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This will bring much more problems (arbitration, etc.) than benefits. There's a reason why only one of the devices on a SCSI chain should be a host controller, or why you shouldn't connect a FireWire harddisk to more than one computer.
Bye,
RazzFazz