Another advantage to making two button mice w/scrollwheel standard is that it would facilitate the transition to OS X for many windows users. A single button mouse is often quite frustrating to a windows user, especially when it's explained to them that they have to use modifier keys to get the same functionality. Usually they are not very pleased, and express confusion because they thought that "macs were supposed to be EASIER to use and not more complicated." A single button mouse is more complicated to use than a two button mouse, and that should be reason enough for Apple to make it their standard mouse.
Hate the idea. I'd end up yanking the mouse out by the roots and hurling it across the room to its digital doom.
I now realize that I'm personally resigned to the fact that Apple will ship a dumb old one-button mouse with the pro units and that we'll continue to buy our own replacement mice in response. Just as well, I think many of us would buy something third party in any event, so their spending tons of money on inventing a new pro-mouse might be a waste of company resources. Just give me my no-button mouse and let me be on my way....
Ack...a backclick? Our palms aren't dexterous like our fingers...bad idea.
Have you seen any mice with buttons on the palm rest? There's a reason you haven't.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]by discstickers:
Exactly. You'd have RSI in an hour with a backclick. Plus, most people use their fingers to control the mouse, not their palms.
Apple would have a lawsuit in a few hours after releasing something like that.
A scroll wheel is doable with the pro mouse design, though.<hr></blockquote>
Try this:
Geez Guys - try a simple test in ergonomics: Place hand (Right or Left) on Apple Pro Mouse. Test forward click action to acheive optimal hand positioning. With hand in optimal position for front click, extend the fingers slightly and depress portion of mouse under first joint of primary clicking finger or fingers. Report results.
<strong>Sure, I can buy a mouse third party, so what's the problem? Well in that case why does Apple ship their computers with mice at all?? I mean, if I'm just going to throw out their mouse and use my own, right? And while they're at it, they can leave out the keyboard, because we can all buy those aftermarket as well.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess the reason is that we "all" don't do this. Most people are happy with the hardware that Apple ships. That is why they don't use ATA/100 or ATA/133 interfaces, USB2 interfaces, touch screens, tablets, etc. Certainly those are cool and extremely useful for some people. And those people are welcome to add them on. Right or wrong they try to design the system that is suitable for a broad base of users.
You will notice that Apple uses a USB port for the mouse and not a proprietary mouse port. You are not locked out of adding a mouse. And by Apple standardizing on a simple, low-cost one button mouse it helps to keep the price down making it easier for those who want something else to get a wireless trackball or a two button mouse or one with a scroll wheel or a five button mouse with a scroll wheel and a trackpad or whatever.
a 2 button mouse is more complicated than a 1 button mouse. beginners do not know about modifier keys, that's right, but they do not know anything about context menu. you can do everything in OS X and the iApps without context menu. it may be more productive to use a 2 button mouse, but i will never go back to that again, i'm using 4 buttons and a scrollwheel and the hardcore workers of my friends uses keyboard only or trackballs or wacom tablets or anything else but seldom a mouse.
I think the reason for the one-button mouse is simplicity. Less buttons ~> less complication. I'm happy with the one-button, and would prefer it stayed that way, always. When I'm on a pc, my instinct is to try control-clicking before I remember the second button. I don't do graphix, or anything like that, just prog'ing, so I guess the second button isn't as useful for me than it is for others.
When you look at the pro mouse, its just amazingly simple. you touch it, it clicks. Adding another button would ruin it. macs are supposed to be easy. 1 button = easy.
<strong>Sure, I can buy a mouse third party, so what's the problem? Well in that case why does Apple ship their computers with mice at all?? I mean, if I'm just going to throw out their mouse and use my own, right? And while they're at it, they can leave out the keyboard, because we can all buy those aftermarket as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
once again you've thrown logic out the window. If apple produced a 2 button mouse with scroll wheel that would severely cut into 3rd party product sales, macally, logitech, kengsington, they've been good to us- and with their mice come keyboards, joysticks, trackball's, wireless, etc.
why piss them off by cutting into their sales? is apple going to make me a joystick? trackball? wireless optical mouse? ... it doesn't make sense, the first thing i do when i get a new mac (which isn't often ) is throw out that one button mouse and go put some money in the hands of a third party, $30 for a nice mouse is hardly a dealbreaker on a $2500 computer- and now when you plug em all in they work instantly, no special drivers, at most usb overdrive- this makes it easier for 3rd party peripheral makers, it takes the load off of them to produce drivers for their mice- something which they havent been great at historically, adding 2button scroll wheel support out of the box was not a foreshadowing of such a mouse from apple, but rather it was a nod to their 3rd party manufacturers... usb is supposedly plug and play right? especially on a mac, right? well when i bought my logitech optical 2 button scroll wheel mouse that's all i did, plug and play, thanks to long overdue driver support in os x.
[quote]once again you've thrown logic out the window. If apple produced a 2 button mouse with scroll wheel that would severely cut into 3rd party product sales, macally, logitech, kengsington, they've been good to us- and with their mice come keyboards, joysticks, trackball's, wireless, etc.<hr></blockquote>
Apple has no qualms about competing directly with Adobe, so why would this be even an issue?
Off Topic - damn, Analogue Bubblebath...why didn't I think of that name! Maybe we should have a general discussion about screen names?
On Topic - How many people do we really think are going to be confused by a two button mouse? I mean the entire windows public uses them and they don't seem to have a problem (other than using windows!). They just provide extra functionality - c'mon stevie boy, get over it and make it standard! If usability is important (well, d'uh) then a two button mouse IS more usable!! Leave the scroll wheel to 3rd party devs.
off topic - I know right, RDJ is awesome, analogue bubblebath is awesome, oh well. I like my alias
on topic- apple should make a multi button mouse because in having only one button its just another thing that pc users can poo-poo a mac for.with the pro mouse design wouldn't be too hard to incorporate a 2(or 3) button mouse with scroll wheel, be it rocking left and right and forward, or rocking forward with a touch panel scroll wheel/button or whatever
Its not like its rocket science(hehehe I love puns)
A one-button mouse is MORE complicated, not less. Pressing a button is easier and less complex of an action than holding a modifier key and pressing a button. Memorizing modifier keys is a waste of time when the same action can be generated with a second mouse button. I'm normally in favor of minimalist designs, but a single button mouse is far too minimalist for my taste. I think in the case of a 5 button mouse, it would be reasonable to argue that it is too complex for beginners, but a two button mouse with scroll wheel is well within a beginner's limits.
As for the beginners that don't know about contextual menus, that makes simple tasks even more complicated to complete. Without contextual menus, many actions take more time, and it often is years before a new Apple user learns about modifier keys. With a two button mouse, they'd just explore with each button and see what happens, learning about contextual menus in a few days. Isn't that the idea behind contextual menus, that they are used? Why should they be a hidden feature that only "power" users know about?
I can't believe ANYONE is defending Apple on this. There is some serious AppleZombie action here, drones following the herd, lemmings jumping to their death. Unbelievable. If Apple's mouse zapped the user with high voltage every time they missed a target, I suppose some of you would defend that, too.
Here you are, with bleeding concern for all the USB mouse makers that would lose some sales if Apple shipped a real mouse with their computers. Who cares? By that logic Apple shouldn't include a number keypad on their keyboard...since not all of us use it, right? If someone want's one, they can go buy a USB number keypad! And what about the market for number pads? Apple destroyed that market when they finally incorporated a number pad onto the Mac keyboard in the 80s, but maybe it's time Apple ressurects that market as a goodwill gesture to USB peripheral companies?
The waste generated by Apple's stock mice also annoys me. Why should Apple be shipping something with their computers that most people throw out upon delivery? That makes no sense at all, none. If a mouse is so bad that people don't even bother using it before trashing it, then it's not fit to ship with Macs. Forget BTO, a real, 2 button mouse w/scrollwheel should be standard issue, it's not going to kill Apple to add a few parts to their overpriced mouse.
As I already noted, if you like a single button mouse, then just use one button, nobody forces you to use two buttons on a two button mouse. I would question what exactly is between a person's ears who continued to use only one button on a two button Apple mouse, but it's your choice. And choice is something that a single button mouse doesn't offer. The only "choice" one has is to throw it out and start over...some choice.
i actually know some people who never get used to a multi-button mouse (my mother for example ). of course advanced users like myself and most people here are able to use a multi-button mouse efficiently.
and there's another point which seems very important to me: by selling macs with single-button mouses apple in a way forces developers to develop simple applications - that means applications which work efficiently with one mouse button. think about it.
[quote] by selling macs with single-button mouses apple in a way forces developers to develop simple applications - that means applications which work efficiently with one mouse button <hr></blockquote>
That is not in the least bit true. All of the features that you can access with a two button mouse are still available, but it usually means clicking to highlight and then searching through some menus to find your function. Also, when you consider that a lot of apps work similarly on mac and pc (office, adobe's set, macromedia's set), you'll see that developers aren't rethinking the entire interface on the mac to facilitate the one-button mouse.
JYD is right, if you don't like two buttons or if their too confusing ( <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> ) then just use the one mouse button!
To say that Apple won't step into areas of possible profitability is facetious. If they feel that they can make money selling electric peanut butter they'll do it (yes, that screen name is available btw).
Quoth JYD regarding multi-button mice:
[quote] I can't believe ANYONE is defending Apple on this. There is some serious AppleZombie action here, drones following the herd, lemmings jumping to their death. Unbelievable. If Apple's mouse zapped the user with high voltage every time they missed a target, I suppose some of you would defend that, too. <hr></blockquote>
BTO third party mice and let the consumers decide! How tough is that? That is REALLY what PC makers do anyway.
The only reason a PC'er would "pooh, pooh" a Mac person for having a one-button mouse is for the Mac person to be too dumb not to have bought a different mouse, not for any problem with Apple. I never used the cntl button for contextual menues. I usually remembered it once a month or so, I should have been a little more knowledgeable and sometimes Mac owners get complacent.
<strong>I can't believe ANYONE is defending Apple on this. There is some serious AppleZombie action here, drones following the herd, lemmings jumping to their death. Unbelievable. If Apple's mouse zapped the user with high voltage every time they missed a target, I suppose some of you would defend that, too.
Here you are, with bleeding concern for all the USB mouse makers that would lose some sales if Apple shipped a real mouse with their computers. Who cares? By that logic Apple shouldn't include a number keypad on their keyboard...since not all of us use it, right? If someone want's one, they can go buy a USB number keypad! And what about the market for number pads? Apple destroyed that market when they finally incorporated a number pad onto the Mac keyboard in the 80s, but maybe it's time Apple ressurects that market as a goodwill gesture to USB peripheral companies?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
oh lordy.
no one is zombieing around calling out for flesh and defending apple while simultaneously walking off a cliff hugging their ibook here! my points were from a business standpoint
1) believe it or not macs are a niche market, remember how many joysticks and gamepads we had before usb? who was building adb devices besides mice of any quality? gravis?
jobs realized this, dumped adb and adopted an industry standard, usb. so when a company made a mouse all they had to do was write new drivers for it. now apples gone one step further by including support in os x for 2 button mice with scroll wheel so that we can buy mice that don't even have mac drivers. finally
and what comes with these mice? all the other shit said company makes.
2) apple even goes a step beyond and outsources all their mouse production to said companies, wasn't the original imac mouse a plastic puck around logitech innards?
3) if apple shipped a 2 button scroll wheel mouse how many people would ever but another one... and if no ones buying the damn things why would any company make mac specific mice or other peripherals
4) how can u compare a num pad which by your own words 'not all of us use' to a mouse? shipping a one button mouse obviously generates sales for 3rd party companies the mac market so desperatly needs.
5) it's an image thing. the 'new' imac is not like the 'old' imac. so why not call it imac2? or imac2002? for the same reason apple's not gunna start shipping something it hasn't done since its inception. it's an icon, it represents the damn company. how many people know macs as the computers with one button mice? and if it's that big a deal you weren't going to buy a mac in the first place.
macs are a niche market. we need as many 3rd partys making mac products as possible, if that means making the buyer whip out another $30 for a decent mouse then, well, apple is willing to let the consumer eat sh!t, well, as much shit as $30 can buy. do i want a 2button scroll wheel mac mouse? yes. are we going to get it? no. is it because apple is backwards and doesn't see that the a one button mouse will be their downfall? no, it's business. does it hurt us, as consumers? obviously
yes, the situation sucks ass, but not that much, apple is in the wrong, but i can see their logic.
Instead of a multi-button wheel mouse, wouldn't a one button mouse with a small touch pad on the surface of the button be better. The touch pad could function just like a wheel does while easily adding horizontal functionality. It preserves the elegance of a one button mouse and adds the functionality of a wheel. The touch pad can even be transparent, preserving the look of the current mice.
I can see the need for a second button in some content creation apps, like CAD and Photoshop, but for most use I prefer one button. I have issues with wheels. For the work I do, I use a wheel all day everyday. After a couple of hours of constant wheel usage, it really starts to hurt. I've shaved my wheel down so it's little more comfortable, but it's still a problem.
Comments
Hate the idea. I'd end up yanking the mouse out by the roots and hurling it across the room to its digital doom.
I now realize that I'm personally resigned to the fact that Apple will ship a dumb old one-button mouse with the pro units and that we'll continue to buy our own replacement mice in response. Just as well, I think many of us would buy something third party in any event, so their spending tons of money on inventing a new pro-mouse might be a waste of company resources. Just give me my no-button mouse and let me be on my way....
heh...back-lick.
D
<strong>I DO wish Apple would provide a two-utton moouse. Maybe as a BTO
Yeah... they don't even have to develop their own mouse, just include a logitec or a microsoft mouse as a BTO option.
My 2¢
Barto
[quote]by Eugene:
Ack...a backclick? Our palms aren't dexterous like our fingers...bad idea.
Have you seen any mice with buttons on the palm rest? There's a reason you haven't.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]by discstickers:
Exactly. You'd have RSI in an hour with a backclick. Plus, most people use their fingers to control the mouse, not their palms.
Apple would have a lawsuit in a few hours after releasing something like that.
A scroll wheel is doable with the pro mouse design, though.<hr></blockquote>
Try this:
Geez Guys - try a simple test in ergonomics: Place hand (Right or Left) on Apple Pro Mouse. Test forward click action to acheive optimal hand positioning. With hand in optimal position for front click, extend the fingers slightly and depress portion of mouse under first joint of primary clicking finger or fingers. Report results.
[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]</p>
<strong>Sure, I can buy a mouse third party, so what's the problem? Well in that case why does Apple ship their computers with mice at all?? I mean, if I'm just going to throw out their mouse and use my own, right? And while they're at it, they can leave out the keyboard, because we can all buy those aftermarket as well.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess the reason is that we "all" don't do this. Most people are happy with the hardware that Apple ships. That is why they don't use ATA/100 or ATA/133 interfaces, USB2 interfaces, touch screens, tablets, etc. Certainly those are cool and extremely useful for some people. And those people are welcome to add them on. Right or wrong they try to design the system that is suitable for a broad base of users.
You will notice that Apple uses a USB port for the mouse and not a proprietary mouse port. You are not locked out of adding a mouse. And by Apple standardizing on a simple, low-cost one button mouse it helps to keep the price down making it easier for those who want something else to get a wireless trackball or a two button mouse or one with a scroll wheel or a five button mouse with a scroll wheel and a trackpad or whatever.
When you look at the pro mouse, its just amazingly simple. you touch it, it clicks. Adding another button would ruin it. macs are supposed to be easy. 1 button = easy.
Once I start using contex-menus, I cant go back. So many apps take advantage of this, but most Mac users never see it.
Im all for a secon button (or tilt). I tink it would help users of all levels.
BTW-I see that Cocoa apps work very nicely w/ click-hold.
<strong>Sure, I can buy a mouse third party, so what's the problem? Well in that case why does Apple ship their computers with mice at all?? I mean, if I'm just going to throw out their mouse and use my own, right? And while they're at it, they can leave out the keyboard, because we can all buy those aftermarket as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
once again you've thrown logic out the window. If apple produced a 2 button mouse with scroll wheel that would severely cut into 3rd party product sales, macally, logitech, kengsington, they've been good to us- and with their mice come keyboards, joysticks, trackball's, wireless, etc.
why piss them off by cutting into their sales? is apple going to make me a joystick? trackball? wireless optical mouse? ... it doesn't make sense, the first thing i do when i get a new mac (which isn't often
Apple has no qualms about competing directly with Adobe, so why would this be even an issue?
<strong>
Apple has no qualms about competing directly with Adobe, so why would this be even an issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The margins on Final Cut Pro are much, much higher than those on a would-be Apple-branded two button mouse.
Plus, FCP drives purchases of Apple's computers (where they make most of their money). A two-button mouse wouldn't drive purchases of Macs.
On Topic - How many people do we really think are going to be confused by a two button mouse? I mean the entire windows public uses them and they don't seem to have a problem (other than using windows!). They just provide extra functionality - c'mon stevie boy, get over it and make it standard! If usability is important (well, d'uh) then a two button mouse IS more usable!! Leave the scroll wheel to 3rd party devs.
rr.
on topic- apple should make a multi button mouse because in having only one button its just another thing that pc users can poo-poo a mac for.with the pro mouse design wouldn't be too hard to incorporate a 2(or 3) button mouse with scroll wheel, be it rocking left and right and forward, or rocking forward with a touch panel scroll wheel/button or whatever
Its not like its rocket science(hehehe I love puns)
As for the beginners that don't know about contextual menus, that makes simple tasks even more complicated to complete. Without contextual menus, many actions take more time, and it often is years before a new Apple user learns about modifier keys. With a two button mouse, they'd just explore with each button and see what happens, learning about contextual menus in a few days. Isn't that the idea behind contextual menus, that they are used? Why should they be a hidden feature that only "power" users know about?
I can't believe ANYONE is defending Apple on this. There is some serious AppleZombie action here, drones following the herd, lemmings jumping to their death. Unbelievable. If Apple's mouse zapped the user with high voltage every time they missed a target, I suppose some of you would defend that, too.
Here you are, with bleeding concern for all the USB mouse makers that would lose some sales if Apple shipped a real mouse with their computers. Who cares? By that logic Apple shouldn't include a number keypad on their keyboard...since not all of us use it, right? If someone want's one, they can go buy a USB number keypad! And what about the market for number pads? Apple destroyed that market when they finally incorporated a number pad onto the Mac keyboard in the 80s, but maybe it's time Apple ressurects that market as a goodwill gesture to USB peripheral companies?
The waste generated by Apple's stock mice also annoys me. Why should Apple be shipping something with their computers that most people throw out upon delivery? That makes no sense at all, none. If a mouse is so bad that people don't even bother using it before trashing it, then it's not fit to ship with Macs. Forget BTO, a real, 2 button mouse w/scrollwheel should be standard issue, it's not going to kill Apple to add a few parts to their overpriced mouse.
As I already noted, if you like a single button mouse, then just use one button, nobody forces you to use two buttons on a two button mouse. I would question what exactly is between a person's ears who continued to use only one button on a two button Apple mouse, but it's your choice. And choice is something that a single button mouse doesn't offer. The only "choice" one has is to throw it out and start over...some choice.
and there's another point which seems very important to me: by selling macs with single-button mouses apple in a way forces developers to develop simple applications - that means applications which work efficiently with one mouse button. think about it.
That is not in the least bit true. All of the features that you can access with a two button mouse are still available, but it usually means clicking to highlight and then searching through some menus to find your function. Also, when you consider that a lot of apps work similarly on mac and pc (office, adobe's set, macromedia's set), you'll see that developers aren't rethinking the entire interface on the mac to facilitate the one-button mouse.
JYD is right, if you don't like two buttons or if their too confusing ( <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> ) then just use the one mouse button!
rr.
Quoth JYD regarding multi-button mice:
[quote] I can't believe ANYONE is defending Apple on this. There is some serious AppleZombie action here, drones following the herd, lemmings jumping to their death. Unbelievable. If Apple's mouse zapped the user with high voltage every time they missed a target, I suppose some of you would defend that, too. <hr></blockquote>
Too true.
D
The only reason a PC'er would "pooh, pooh" a Mac person for having a one-button mouse is for the Mac person to be too dumb not to have bought a different mouse, not for any problem with Apple. I never used the cntl button for contextual menues. I usually remembered it once a month or so, I should have been a little more knowledgeable and sometimes Mac owners get complacent.
<strong>I can't believe ANYONE is defending Apple on this. There is some serious AppleZombie action here, drones following the herd, lemmings jumping to their death. Unbelievable. If Apple's mouse zapped the user with high voltage every time they missed a target, I suppose some of you would defend that, too.
Here you are, with bleeding concern for all the USB mouse makers that would lose some sales if Apple shipped a real mouse with their computers. Who cares? By that logic Apple shouldn't include a number keypad on their keyboard...since not all of us use it, right? If someone want's one, they can go buy a USB number keypad! And what about the market for number pads? Apple destroyed that market when they finally incorporated a number pad onto the Mac keyboard in the 80s, but maybe it's time Apple ressurects that market as a goodwill gesture to USB peripheral companies?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
oh lordy.
no one is zombieing around calling out for flesh and defending apple while simultaneously walking off a cliff hugging their ibook here! my points were from a business standpoint
1) believe it or not macs are a niche market, remember how many joysticks and gamepads we had before usb? who was building adb devices besides mice of any quality? gravis?
jobs realized this, dumped adb and adopted an industry standard, usb. so when a company made a mouse all they had to do was write new drivers for it. now apples gone one step further by including support in os x for 2 button mice with scroll wheel so that we can buy mice that don't even have mac drivers. finally
and what comes with these mice? all the other shit said company makes.
2) apple even goes a step beyond and outsources all their mouse production to said companies, wasn't the original imac mouse a plastic puck around logitech innards?
3) if apple shipped a 2 button scroll wheel mouse how many people would ever but another one... and if no ones buying the damn things why would any company make mac specific mice or other peripherals
4) how can u compare a num pad which by your own words 'not all of us use' to a mouse? shipping a one button mouse obviously generates sales for 3rd party companies the mac market so desperatly needs.
5) it's an image thing. the 'new' imac is not like the 'old' imac. so why not call it imac2? or imac2002? for the same reason apple's not gunna start shipping something it hasn't done since its inception. it's an icon, it represents the damn company. how many people know macs as the computers with one button mice? and if it's that big a deal you weren't going to buy a mac in the first place.
macs are a niche market. we need as many 3rd partys making mac products as possible, if that means making the buyer whip out another $30 for a decent mouse then, well, apple is willing to let the consumer eat sh!t, well, as much shit as $30 can buy. do i want a 2button scroll wheel mac mouse? yes. are we going to get it? no. is it because apple is backwards and doesn't see that the a one button mouse will be their downfall? no, it's business. does it hurt us, as consumers? obviously
yes, the situation sucks ass, but not that much, apple is in the wrong, but i can see their logic.
I can see the need for a second button in some content creation apps, like CAD and Photoshop, but for most use I prefer one button. I have issues with wheels. For the work I do, I use a wheel all day everyday. After a couple of hours of constant wheel usage, it really starts to hurt. I've shaved my wheel down so it's little more comfortable, but it's still a problem.
[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: CAD_Larry ]</p>