The long term solution here is for the banks, credit card companies, cell phone manufacturers and all other interested parties to create some industry-wide standards. NFC payment should be as open and standardized as mag stripes. These proprietary systems will be short-lived as all involved find supporting all the conflicting providers expensive and error-prone.
I would not be surprised to see Apple make the ApplePay system available for licensing or turn the IP over to an industry standards body of some sort.
The foundation of tokenization payments is already an industry standard. Apple Pay is Apple's marketing name for it, such as Samsung Pay is for Samsung (and there's Android Pay, also).
Tokenized transactions are a good choice: the largest value added of these sorts of things is the security angle. Straight mimicking a card isn't secure enough anymore given the various vendor breaches such as Target, Home Depot and the ACME grocery chain etc.
They won't all be updated as there's no legal requirement to do so AFAIK. Mom and Pop's Corner Store will probably keep using their old swipe machine just as they have for years.
The leverage/incentive comes from the transfer of fraud liability to the point of sale. Mom and Pop have to judge whether they want to risk eating the fraud costs that the banks are no longer going to accept. That's the turnover this fall that is the underlying event.
That should give Samsung Pay a leg up when it comes to merchant acceptance, as merchants will not be forced to upgrade their payment terminals to work with NFC in order to accept Samsung Pay....
But don't they have to upgrade their terminals in the next couple of months anyway to accept the required chipped cards? I can't imagine merchants passing on upgrading to include NFC since they are upgrading anyway.
The long term solution here is for the banks, credit card companies, cell phone manufacturers and all other interested parties to create some industry-wide standards. NFC payment should be as open and standardized as mag stripes. These proprietary systems will be short-lived as all involved find supporting all the conflicting providers expensive and error-prone.
I would not be surprised to see Apple make the ApplePay system available for licensing or turn the IP over to an industry standards body of some sort.
I'm not sure what you think is "proprietary" about ApplePay, other than the patents and trademarks associated with it. If you read this article, it would seem others (Samsung, for one) are offering NFC payment with tokenization schemes on mobile phones. So what, exactly, are you accusing Apple of doing here?
Apple has joined the NFC standards organization NFC Forum. From the AppleInsider article:
The NFC Forum was launched as a nonprofit industry association in 2004. It is a collaboration between chipmakers, communications companies, and consumer electronics makers.
Other sponsors of the NFC Forum include Google, Samsung, Intel, Sony, Broadcom, Visa, MasterCard, Nokia, and Qualcomm.
The standard Apple wants to bet its future on is NFC, and Apple has joined the industry standards group behind it. Think about it: Apple Pay couldn't survive if it was truly proprietary as opposed to an implementation of a broader NFC payment standard. Seen in this light, Apple Pay is helping to spur the adoption of NFC over one-foot-in-past technologies like LoopPay. And in turn, Apple Pay benefits when NFC becomes ubiquitous.
I'm also inviting [@]TechLover[/@] to respond, since he seems to think your post was singularly "worth reading."
Starting October 1st businesses that accept credit or debit cards become liable instead of of the bank or card issuer for fraud if they do a magnetic swipe with a card that has a security chip on it. Card issuers are replacing cards as quickly as they can right now. I have received new cards with chips in the last six weeks even before the cards have expired. Almost all of the small businesses I have been doing business with have upgraded to new card terminals that read security chip cards and NFC payments. Even Square has a new product that will read the chips and accept NFC. Using NFC payment also protects the business from liability if the card issuer has joined with the NFC payment service such as ApplePay or in this case SamsungPay. With the October deadline You can see why Samsung wants to get in on this NFC payment business.
If I read this correctly LoopPay is equivalent to reading the mag strip of the credit/debit card and leaves the merchant liable. I doubt that Apple would bother with LoopPay since it sounds like a Samsung marketing gimmick to say "look at this feature, we have it and Apple doesn't".
Europe, the UK, and Asia are way ahead of the US in using wireless payment technology. Apple wasn't first to the party but as usual did it better and made it more secure. Android in and of itself is not secure but Google tried with GooglePay (thanks to them for convincing large retailers to install NFC terminals). Samsung has written proprietary code to handle the security and use the fingerprint device on their newer phones. We'll see if the hacker community tries to check it's security.
The CurrentC consortium is falling apart since they have announced a huge delay in delivering their system. RiteAid and Best Buy are soon going to accept ApplePay and I hope CVS will be right behind them once their contractual obligation ends later this month. The system is cumbersome and there's a possibility that Apple will add store incentive programs to ApplePay in the future. It's possible that CurrentC will lose most of it's funding from it's retail members and either cease to exist or be purchased by another company. I doubt that Apple has any interest in buying them.
The long term solution here is for the banks, credit card companies, cell phone manufacturers and all other interested parties to create some industry-wide standards. NFC payment should be as open and standardized as mag stripes. These proprietary systems will be short-lived as all involved find supporting all the conflicting providers expensive and error-prone.
I would not be surprised to see Apple make the ApplePay system available for licensing or turn the IP over to an industry standards body of some sort.
Please. Apple Pay is built on the latest EMVco tokenization system that was NOT developed by Apple, but was developed by the major credit card companies and financial institutions. It IS a standard. Apple just happened to be the first company to use this new STANDARD. The only thing Apple added was using Touch ID instead of a PIN, but this doesn't change how this INDUSTRY STANDARD works (including all the backend processing that goes on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by formosa
Edit: after reading some more, it seems like LoopPay is (or will become) a subset of Samsung Pay. Very confusing...
You got the confusing part right. Do you use NFC or MST when you approach a terminal? If you use MST, then you need to see if you have a chip/PIN card and if it's supported. If not, can you switch back to NFC and use the same card? blah blah blah
The problem is that most fandroids even though praise Samsung, would never trust android enough to put their financial information in their phone. I heard that from multiple fandroids who never wanted to use iPhone. Let's say StageFreight...oh yeah...I would never trust android in a million years.
They won't all be updated as there's no legal requirement to do so AFAIK. Mom and Pop's Corner Store will probably keep using their old swipe machine just as they have for years.
mom and pops are already upgrading to NFC equipped POS terminals. they're small and cheap and Apple pay works on them. mom and pops don't have to worry about national rollout plans.
How does LoopPay work if there's no NFC needed in ther terminal?
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't Apple patent a whole bunch of IP regarding the tokenized transactions?
LoopPay use magnetic Field just like your credit card does....it's old tech and is POS in term security. MST? My asz!
They won't all be updated as there's no legal requirement to do so AFAIK. Mom and Pop's Corner Store will probably keep using their old swipe machine just as they have for years.
Probably not, as all the merchant providers are requiring the update OR the merchant becomes liable for 100% of fraud with swiped transactions. And since the terminals are not a high cost item compared to even a single expensive fraud case, and the merchant providers are pushing deals on new terminals to get everyone updated, I expect that you will see even the mom and pop people upgrading their terminals.
Even Square has an EMV dongle coming out soon for a very affordable price.
The CurrentC consortium is falling apart since they have announced a huge delay in delivering their system. RiteAid and Best Buy are soon going to accept ApplePay and I hope CVS will be right behind them once their contractual obligation ends later this month. The system is cumbersome and there's a possibility that Apple will add store incentive programs to ApplePay in the future. It's possible that CurrentC will lose most of it's funding from it's retail members and either cease to exist or be purchased by another company. I doubt that Apple has any interest in buying them.
I think CurrentC should be renamed WalmartPay. In a year, Walmart will be the last one trying to push it and use it I am forecasting...
Really, can't this company come up with their own stuff? I do like how they approach this different as with the accession of LoopPay, but Apple Pay was first, then Google Pay, and now Samsung Pay? Well, we will soon see all merchants accepting these as their previous contracts update next month (?)
This is perfectly fine since Android Pay and Samsung Pay will use the same framework designed by Apple for Apple Pay. Sure, they are copying and piggybacking, but this is one area where we ALL benefit from other OEMs and OSes getting onboard with the same setup. The best part is that the merchants don't have to do anything but offer NFC on their terminals for this to work, and in the US with the move to C&P the majority of the terminals have NFC capable HW built-in. The most people using NFC the more likely a merchant will support it and the faster 'we' can finally stop carrying physical cards. At that point the paradigm will have shifted a longtime ago, where Appleinsider won't be posting articles about yet another vendor accepting Apple Pay, and more shocking thing with a sale won't be that a merchant does accept Apple Pay (et al.) but that a merchant weirdly doesn't accept Apple Pay (et al.) the way that credit/debit cards are accepted today. I expect that will happen within 3-5 years and we'll look back on this as a very, very rapid transition into the future of secure payment… despite some complaining that a service only announced less than a year ago isn't accepted every place they shop.
I think CurrentC should be renamed WalmartPay. In a year, Walmart will be the last one trying to push it and use it I am forecasting...
Nothing is stopping MCX from changing their name, and frankly they probably half to after this debacle once they can figure out how merchants can properly use CurrentC with mobile devices for mining data. The solution is, in part, to make it work with *Pay.
(The asterisk (*) refers to Apple Pay, Android Pay, Samsung Pay, and everyone one following Apple's lead. I hope they all use the word Pay at the end simply to make this simpler for the consumer.)
Comments
The long term solution here is for the banks, credit card companies, cell phone manufacturers and all other interested parties to create some industry-wide standards. NFC payment should be as open and standardized as mag stripes. These proprietary systems will be short-lived as all involved find supporting all the conflicting providers expensive and error-prone.
I would not be surprised to see Apple make the ApplePay system available for licensing or turn the IP over to an industry standards body of some sort.
The foundation of tokenization payments is already an industry standard. Apple Pay is Apple's marketing name for it, such as Samsung Pay is for Samsung (and there's Android Pay, also).
Edit: Gatorguy beat me to it.
Tokenized transactions are a good choice: the largest value added of these sorts of things is the security angle. Straight mimicking a card isn't secure enough anymore given the various vendor breaches such as Target, Home Depot and the ACME grocery chain etc.
They won't all be updated as there's no legal requirement to do so AFAIK. Mom and Pop's Corner Store will probably keep using their old swipe machine just as they have for years.
The leverage/incentive comes from the transfer of fraud liability to the point of sale. Mom and Pop have to judge whether they want to risk eating the fraud costs that the banks are no longer going to accept. That's the turnover this fall that is the underlying event.
But don't they have to upgrade their terminals in the next couple of months anyway to accept the required chipped cards? I can't imagine merchants passing on upgrading to include NFC since they are upgrading anyway.
I'm not sure what you think is "proprietary" about ApplePay, other than the patents and trademarks associated with it. If you read this article, it would seem others (Samsung, for one) are offering NFC payment with tokenization schemes on mobile phones. So what, exactly, are you accusing Apple of doing here?
Apple has joined the NFC standards organization NFC Forum. From the AppleInsider article:
The standard Apple wants to bet its future on is NFC, and Apple has joined the industry standards group behind it. Think about it: Apple Pay couldn't survive if it was truly proprietary as opposed to an implementation of a broader NFC payment standard. Seen in this light, Apple Pay is helping to spur the adoption of NFC over one-foot-in-past technologies like LoopPay. And in turn, Apple Pay benefits when NFC becomes ubiquitous.
I'm also inviting [@]TechLover[/@] to respond, since he seems to think your post was singularly "worth reading."
I'm also inviting @TechLover to respond, since he seems to think your post was singularly "worth reading."
"Singularly"?
I said "one of the very few".
But thanks for the invite.
Starting October 1st businesses that accept credit or debit cards become liable instead of of the bank or card issuer for fraud if they do a magnetic swipe with a card that has a security chip on it. Card issuers are replacing cards as quickly as they can right now. I have received new cards with chips in the last six weeks even before the cards have expired. Almost all of the small businesses I have been doing business with have upgraded to new card terminals that read security chip cards and NFC payments. Even Square has a new product that will read the chips and accept NFC. Using NFC payment also protects the business from liability if the card issuer has joined with the NFC payment service such as ApplePay or in this case SamsungPay. With the October deadline You can see why Samsung wants to get in on this NFC payment business.
If I read this correctly LoopPay is equivalent to reading the mag strip of the credit/debit card and leaves the merchant liable. I doubt that Apple would bother with LoopPay since it sounds like a Samsung marketing gimmick to say "look at this feature, we have it and Apple doesn't".
Europe, the UK, and Asia are way ahead of the US in using wireless payment technology. Apple wasn't first to the party but as usual did it better and made it more secure. Android in and of itself is not secure but Google tried with GooglePay (thanks to them for convincing large retailers to install NFC terminals). Samsung has written proprietary code to handle the security and use the fingerprint device on their newer phones. We'll see if the hacker community tries to check it's security.
The CurrentC consortium is falling apart since they have announced a huge delay in delivering their system. RiteAid and Best Buy are soon going to accept ApplePay and I hope CVS will be right behind them once their contractual obligation ends later this month. The system is cumbersome and there's a possibility that Apple will add store incentive programs to ApplePay in the future. It's possible that CurrentC will lose most of it's funding from it's retail members and either cease to exist or be purchased by another company. I doubt that Apple has any interest in buying them.
The long term solution here is for the banks, credit card companies, cell phone manufacturers and all other interested parties to create some industry-wide standards. NFC payment should be as open and standardized as mag stripes. These proprietary systems will be short-lived as all involved find supporting all the conflicting providers expensive and error-prone.
I would not be surprised to see Apple make the ApplePay system available for licensing or turn the IP over to an industry standards body of some sort.
Please. Apple Pay is built on the latest EMVco tokenization system that was NOT developed by Apple, but was developed by the major credit card companies and financial institutions. It IS a standard. Apple just happened to be the first company to use this new STANDARD. The only thing Apple added was using Touch ID instead of a PIN, but this doesn't change how this INDUSTRY STANDARD works (including all the backend processing that goes on).
Edit: after reading some more, it seems like LoopPay is (or will become) a subset of Samsung Pay. Very confusing...
You got the confusing part right. Do you use NFC or MST when you approach a terminal? If you use MST, then you need to see if you have a chip/PIN card and if it's supported. If not, can you switch back to NFC and use the same card? blah blah blah
Samsung Pay is an absolute mess.
The problem is that most fandroids even though praise Samsung, would never trust android enough to put their financial information in their phone. I heard that from multiple fandroids who never wanted to use iPhone. Let's say StageFreight...oh yeah...I would never trust android in a million years.
why don't you start with the name of the service, and go from there. Next you can go to the phone's naming conventions,. and then...
or just be a Samesung apologist and deny its happening...over...and over...
mom and pops are already upgrading to NFC equipped POS terminals. they're small and cheap and Apple pay works on them. mom and pops don't have to worry about national rollout plans.
What exactly is the copying that has taken place?
The name. Do you honestly believe that Samsung had no other option than "Samsung Pay" to call this service?
Funny they called it that...
Why won't 'Samsung Pay' Apple those damages, after all this time?
They won't all be updated as there's no legal requirement to do so AFAIK. Mom and Pop's Corner Store will probably keep using their old swipe machine just as they have for years.
Probably not, as all the merchant providers are requiring the update OR the merchant becomes liable for 100% of fraud with swiped transactions. And since the terminals are not a high cost item compared to even a single expensive fraud case, and the merchant providers are pushing deals on new terminals to get everyone updated, I expect that you will see even the mom and pop people upgrading their terminals.
Even Square has an EMV dongle coming out soon for a very affordable price.
The CurrentC consortium is falling apart since they have announced a huge delay in delivering their system. RiteAid and Best Buy are soon going to accept ApplePay and I hope CVS will be right behind them once their contractual obligation ends later this month. The system is cumbersome and there's a possibility that Apple will add store incentive programs to ApplePay in the future. It's possible that CurrentC will lose most of it's funding from it's retail members and either cease to exist or be purchased by another company. I doubt that Apple has any interest in buying them.
I think CurrentC should be renamed WalmartPay. In a year, Walmart will be the last one trying to push it and use it I am forecasting...
This is perfectly fine since Android Pay and Samsung Pay will use the same framework designed by Apple for Apple Pay. Sure, they are copying and piggybacking, but this is one area where we ALL benefit from other OEMs and OSes getting onboard with the same setup. The best part is that the merchants don't have to do anything but offer NFC on their terminals for this to work, and in the US with the move to C&P the majority of the terminals have NFC capable HW built-in. The most people using NFC the more likely a merchant will support it and the faster 'we' can finally stop carrying physical cards. At that point the paradigm will have shifted a longtime ago, where Appleinsider won't be posting articles about yet another vendor accepting Apple Pay, and more shocking thing with a sale won't be that a merchant does accept Apple Pay (et al.) but that a merchant weirdly doesn't accept Apple Pay (et al.) the way that credit/debit cards are accepted today. I expect that will happen within 3-5 years and we'll look back on this as a very, very rapid transition into the future of secure payment… despite some complaining that a service only announced less than a year ago isn't accepted every place they shop.
Nothing is stopping MCX from changing their name, and frankly they probably half to after this debacle once they can figure out how merchants can properly use CurrentC with mobile devices for mining data. The solution is, in part, to make it work with *Pay.
(The asterisk (*) refers to Apple Pay, Android Pay, Samsung Pay, and everyone one following Apple's lead. I hope they all use the word Pay at the end simply to make this simpler for the consumer.)