I don't think MS worries too much. They already have partnerships with many enterprises vendors, including Cisco and IBM. Plus, they have a long list of services, applications and the Surface line, that I don't think that enterprises acquiring more Apple devices could hurt them too much.
Uncle Fester blew away a decade of market lead in which Apple moved from a pimple on Fester's ass to a bleeding boil on his nose, and you say MS doesn't worry too much? There's a reason that Win 7 is the most installed MS OS, and Fester and Friends aren't worried? In 2007 MS got woke up with the iPhone and despite eight years of effort, the MS phone is STILL not a finished product. I'd be more then worried.
MS once had every IT manager firmly in their pocket 10 years ago and now that's no longer true. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no way for MS to put the cork back in... The overall corporate reach has moved from aggressively extending its reach to one of loss mitigation; that's reason enough right there for concern. The past is littered with hundreds of one proud names; the leaders of computer technology who made smaller mis-steps than MS has, and they're gone gone gone.
I don't think MS worries too much. They already have partnerships with many enterprises vendors, including Cisco and IBM. Plus, they have a long list of services, applications and the Surface line, that I don't think that enterprises acquiring more Apple devices could hurt them too much.
Really, I would be surprised if MS does not worry about anything that can cause the PC shipments or Windows shipments or mobile devices to go down in market-share.... because it affects the bottom line on one of two divisions that have always produced the bulk of Microsoft revenue/profits (Windows and Office). Office is less affected since it runs on the device regardless, but Windows and it's dominance is very important to Microsoft.
As for the Cisco / Apple partnership.... it is not exclusive and Cisco partners with any company that has the potential to move the needle on revenue or keep the needle from dropping when it comes to revenue / profits. It is a win to be high profile with Cisco -- simply because it raises your profile in corporations for any serious big relationship with old iron / old networking behemoths. So win for Apple.... no real loss yet for microsoft..... it is not a zero-sum game with this one..... just potential to give more companies options in the future.
Uncle Fester blew away a decade of market lead in which Apple moved from a pimple on Fester's ass to a bleeding boil on his nose, and you say MS doesn't worry too much? There's a reason that Win 7 is the most installed MS OS, and Fester and Friends aren't worried? In 2007 MS got woke up with the iPhone and despite eight years of effort, the MS phone is STILL not a finished product. I'd be more then worried.
Yes, MS blew many things in the past, but one of the markets were they did right, and keep doing it, is the enterprise. W7 is the most installed OS, and based in the latest numbers, W10 is the next one. And yes, Apple is doing far better than MS with the iPhone, but the enterprise is much more than that, and yes, Apple is the one far behind.
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MS once had every IT manager firmly in their pocket 10 years ago and now that's no longer true. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no way for MS to put the cork back in... The overall corporate reach has moved from aggressively extending its reach to one of loss mitigation; that's reason enough right there for concern. The past is littered with hundreds of one proud names; the leaders of computer technology who made smaller mis-steps than MS has, and they're gone gone gone.
Based in what MS doing, looks like they still have the enterprise in their pockets. And now they expand with Azure (and the long list of services it includes), Office 365, Surface Pro's and W10. Even with the lot of mistakes they make in the past, they still the largest software company in the world, doing billions per quarter. Looks like the missteps they made didn't bring them down, and with the changes they made the past year, looks like they'll do better. Maybe you don't like them, but they do some of the best products for the enterprise.
Really, I would be surprised if MS does not worry about anything that can cause the PC shipments or Windows shipments or mobile devices to go down in market-share.... because it affects the bottom line on one of two divisions that have always produced the bulk of Microsoft revenue/profits (Windows and Office). Office is less affected since it runs on the device regardless, but Windows and it's dominance is very important to Microsoft.
As for the Cisco / Apple partnership.... it is not exclusive and Cisco partners with any company that has the potential to move the needle on revenue or keep the needle from dropping when it comes to revenue / profits. It is a win to be high profile with Cisco -- simply because it raises your profile in corporations for any serious big relationship with old iron / old networking behemoths. So win for Apple.... no real loss yet for microsoft..... it is not a zero-sum game with this one..... just potential to give more companies options in the future.
Based in what I read, the Cisco/Apple partnership is for iOS devices, so it won't affect Windows/Office. It may affect Windows Phone, but I don't think that's a priority for them.
Based in what I read, the Cisco/Apple partnership is for iOS devices, so it won't affect Windows/Office. It may affect Windows Phone, but I don't think that's a priority for them.
And IBM partnership started with iOS devices as well.......
So where are all the usual trolls who like to constantly claim that Tim Cook is a useless CEO, has done nothing for Apple, and should be fired? Seems to me like he is quietly working with premiere partners to grow Apple's business into markets where it traditionally has been very small. While enterprise and verticals are not as large as consumer, in terms of Apple's product set, they are good areas for growth, and Apple seems to be doing some smart moves.
MS still doing very good even with the Apple + IBM partnership. What will be different if Cisco expand the partnership to other Apple devices?
How do you measure very good?
IBM has just started in earnest their partnership in regards to non-iOS devices.... so recently that if you saw any data about the impact you have made it up. The potential is for IBM to be disruptive in an environment that is almost entirely Microsoft's domain. Now I don't expect everyone or even the vast majority of companies to suddenly throw out their windows computers and bring in Apple devices.... it would be much more gradual than that. In a market that is seeing year over year PC shipments drop of 9% while Apple increases (which has to have an affect on the bottom line) any additional decline due to ANY Apple sales in offices..... to be very much unwanted. Each additional enterprise services company supporting Macs in the enterprise is an additional change of a few percent on PC shipments to the enterprise.... which all translates into the markets. I can tell you from personal experience that ANY incursion into what a company sees as their customer..... and management goes nuts..... because it is a threat..... a big threat..... experience shows that once a customer becomes comfortable with another competing product it does two things -- it is not out of the realm of possibility that they replace you across the board or they use it in negotiations when it comes to licensing agreements.... both affect your bottom line as well. iPhones were the first incursion, iPads are another...... when executives become comfortable with those and often have macs at home..... then it is a threat.
It is not something where you would see a huge swing the day it is announced, nor do I expect suddenly Microsoft will lose money..... they are more than a one trick pony and even if Windows were replaced with a Mac they would probably still have Office in there since that is what people have used up until that point.
For companies - if you are not growing - you are legacy. The senior management pay packages options etc. are based on growth. Growth that Microsoft has been sorely lacking in Microsoft for 15+ years. (I have friends with Microsoft options that had gone no-where -- people a few years earlier have cashed in.... but not them - I have not heard of any updates to say things have suddenly changed).
IBM has just started in earnest their partnership in regards to non-iOS devices.... so recently that if you saw any data about the impact you have made it up. The potential is for IBM to be disruptive in an environment that is almost entirely Microsoft's domain. Now I don't expect everyone or even the vast majority of companies to suddenly throw out their windows computers and bring in Apple devices.... it would be much more gradual than that. In a market that is seeing year over year PC shipments drop of 9% while Apple increases (which has to have an affect on the bottom line) any additional decline due to ANY Apple sales in offices..... to be very much unwanted. Each additional enterprise services company supporting Macs in the enterprise is an additional change of a few percent on PC shipments to the enterprise.... which all translates into the markets. I can tell you from personal experience that ANY incursion into what a company sees as their customer..... and management goes nuts..... because it is a threat..... a big threat..... experience shows that once a customer becomes comfortable with another competing product it does two things -- it is not out of the realm of possibility that they replace you across the board or they use it in negotiations when it comes to licensing agreements.... both affect your bottom line as well. iPhones were the first incursion, iPads are another...... when executives become comfortable with those and often have macs at home..... then it is a threat.
It is not something where you would see a huge swing the day it is announced, nor do I expect suddenly Microsoft will lose money..... they are more than a one trick pony and even if Windows were replaced with a Mac they would probably still have Office in there since that is what people have used up until that point.
For companies - if you are not growing - you are legacy. The senior management pay packages options etc. are based on growth. Growth that Microsoft has been sorely lacking in Microsoft for 15+ years. (I have friends with Microsoft options that had gone no-where -- people a few years earlier have cashed in.... but not them - I have not heard of any updates to say things have suddenly changed).
You used the word "Potential", and that's the thing. IBM may be successful or it could fail. The rest of your post is an assumption, and in the same way I can write a long list of things on how Mac's and iPad may fail in the enterprise. Apple is the one who need IBM to get to the enterprise, not backwards. If enterprises stay with MS applications, IBM will still support them, they will not lose business. Remember, they have a partnership too, for years (and I think they even have a partnership with Lenovo). And based in the reviews, W10 has done many things right, and sometimes even better than OS X, plus have the benefit of supporting the long list of vertical and legacy applications. That may slow down the Mac's deployments in the enterprise. Let's see what happens in the future. But right now is that MS is dominating the enterprise in the desktop, server room and cloud, while Apple have the iPhones and to some degree, iPads.
BTW, is your last paragraph related to stocks? Why do you think is related to the article?
You used the word "Potential", and that's the thing. IBM may be successful or it could fail. The rest of your post is an assumption, and in the same way I can write a long list of things on how Mac's and iPad may fail in the enterprise. Apple is the one who need IBM to get to the enterprise, not backwards. If enterprises stay with MS applications, IBM will still support them, they will not lose business. Remember, they have a partnership too, for years (and I think they even have a partnership with Lenovo). And based in the reviews, W10 has done many things right, and sometimes even better than OS X, plus have the benefit of supporting the long list of vertical and legacy applications. That may slow down the Mac's deployments in the enterprise. Let's see what happens in the future. But right now is that MS is dominating the enterprise in the desktop, server room and cloud, while Apple have the iPhones and to some degree, iPads.
BTW, is your last paragraph related to stocks? Why do you think is related to the article?
We are talking about the future and thus potential gain - potential loss - or potentially the same whether stated explicitly or not is all speculative.
Back when I worked in the office back in Canada/US/UK - there was only one company I know of that had macintosh computers, no ipads or iphones which did not exist and no incursions into all other companies. (My experience is in business specific software).
People buying iPhones had an impact with people buying iPads (and yes iPads are more widely used in the Enterprise than macs) which in personal buying patterns has resulted in people buying macintoshes for home (including executives of companies that only were windows users and not Apple products). iPhones are everywhere in the office..... microsoft is just not used...... if there is one competitor in that space it is now Android phones as Blackberries are becoming less evident.
Now you have to define what is failure for IBM? 0 of their clients buying it, 10% deployment, 50%. I think I am being very conservative in that I expect maybe anywhere between 0 -> 10%. The difference with IBM is that they are walking the walk.... estimates are for 70% of their workforce to switch to Mac OS (and the internal numbers are rising; I personally expect it to hit 90%).... just because they were given a choice. My old consulting company gave employees (around 2000 employees) a choice and according to my grapevine..... 90% of the employees went with Macs. (both these companies are more technically oriented than the average). The difference here for IBM is that they are entering a new business area - one that they see as a growth market..... with less competitors as the "Windows" market that is saturated for a shrinking market.... which means it is in their interest to encourage companies that could be persuaded to go with Apple products.....
Of course IBM will support existing Windows installations - they support our software running Oracle even though it would be in their interest to have it run on DB2 (but it was too expensive at the time to encourage us to move to DB2 - and the topic has not be revisited). But with both cases it is in their interest for customers to use Apple products over Windows products and thus they will be incentivised to do so in cases where the customer is open to the idea.
Microsofts own projects are for them to barely hit 2% of the phone market.
Microsoft's surface is more oriented to "laptop" sales than those buying tablets - and even so their sales although better than expected are relatively miniscule as compared to the market.
Microsoft's Windows market (PC's) are seeing a year-over-year decline on a regular basis - and I don't see that changing much in the mid-term. Apple increasing their marketshare in the enterprise is at best a zero-sum game for Microsoft. So if it rises 2%, Microsoft falls 2%.
Up until now most businesses would go with Microsoft - executives used Windows and choosing anything else was just risky.
Now look at the home market.... go University campuses.... and there are macs everywhere. My father was a president/ceo and was always true-blue.... and that meant IBM PCs with Windows, IBM mainframes, etc. His children - me switched to Apple in 2008, my elder sister in 2011, my younger sister probably around the same time. If my father were still working he would be surrounded by people using Apple products -- and we would probably have him running it as well. Many executives now have iPhones, and quite a few have Apple products (where before it was none to speak of) - they are comfortable with it - thus the risk to switching going forward is less if you have executives that back it because they are comfortable with it. Then of course you have all those people that were using Macintosh computers in University, now have moved and are moving into the enterprise market and going up the chain of command.... all of those are comfortable with Apple products. This has got to be uncomfortable for Microsoft since Windows is one of two pillars of their empire (the other Office).
With executives in the end it comes down to stocks since the majority of their pay comes stocks which are driven by growth - lower growth - stagnant or dropping market value = very little extra compensation. So Apple taking future markets and now potentially taking existing markets.... well that is what Microsoft did to IBM.
Microsoft use to dwarf Apple - to where Apple was an insignificant gnat to Microsoft. Apple's market cap (at a relatively low PE) is more than Microsoft and IBM combined. In fact Apple could buy IBM with cash on hand (not that I would do that).
People buying iPhones had an impact with people buying iPads (and yes iPads are more widely used in the Enterprise than macs) which in personal buying patterns has resulted in people buying macintoshes for home (including executives of companies that only were windows users and not Apple products). iPhones are everywhere in the office..... microsoft is just not used...... if there is one competitor in that space it is now Android phones as Blackberries are becoming less evident.
Like I posted, before, based in market share and the plans for Windows Phone, I don't think it their focus right now.
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Now you have to define what is failure for IBM? 0 of their clients buying it, 10% deployment, 50%. I think I am being very conservative in that I expect maybe anywhere between 0 -> 10%. The difference with IBM is that they are walking the walk.... estimates are for 70% of their workforce to switch to Mac OS (and the internal numbers are rising; I personally expect it to hit 90%).... just because they were given a choice. My old consulting company gave employees (around 2000 employees) a choice and according to my grapevine..... 90% of the employees went with Macs. (both these companies are more technically oriented than the average). The difference here for IBM is that they are entering a new business area - one that they see as a growth market..... with less competitors as the "Windows" market that is saturated for a shrinking market.... which means it is in their interest to encourage companies that could be persuaded to go with Apple products.....
Of course IBM will support existing Windows installations - they support our software running Oracle even though it would be in their interest to have it run on DB2 (but it was too expensive at the time to encourage us to move to DB2 - and the topic has not be revisited). But with both cases it is in their interest for customers to use Apple products over Windows products and thus they will be incentivised to do so in cases where the customer is open to the idea.
Those are estimates, that either could happen or maybe not. MS estimates 1B Windows 10 devices in 2-3 years. Would you believe that too? And based in market share and sales numbers, what happen in your old company is not what happening in most business. And IBM is in the business of enterprise services. They already have partnerships with IBM and Lenovo, and now they add Apple. Windows maybe is "saturated" but they still provide services on top of that. With Apple they expanding, and not necessarily replacing the business options they have.
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Microsofts own projects are for them to barely hit 2% of the phone market.
Microsoft's surface is more oriented to "laptop" sales than those buying tablets - and even so their sales although better than expected are relatively miniscule as compared to the market.
Microsoft's Windows market (PC's) are seeing a year-over-year decline on a regular basis - and I don't see that changing much in the mid-term. Apple increasing their marketshare in the enterprise is at best a zero-sum game for Microsoft. So if it rises 2%, Microsoft falls 2%.
Up until now most businesses would go with Microsoft - executives used Windows and choosing anything else was just risky.
Looks like Windows Phone is not a priority for MS, very different from the Surface line, where MS is doing very good and growing quickly. And even though PCs sales have decreased, they are far larger than Apple when you compared sales numbers with Lenovo, Dell and HP. Apple market share is growing, but still miles behind. And why you think that Apple entering the enterprise means a complete lose for MS? How many of those Apple users will be using MS Office or Windows in Boot Camp / Virtualized? And based in sales, looks like most business still choosing MS.
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Now look at the home market.... go University campuses.... and there are macs everywhere. My father was a president/ceo and was always true-blue.... and that meant IBM PCs with Windows, IBM mainframes, etc. His children - me switched to Apple in 2008, my elder sister in 2011, my younger sister probably around the same time. If my father were still working he would be surrounded by people using Apple products -- and we would probably have him running it as well. Many executives now have iPhones, and quite a few have Apple products (where before it was none to speak of) - they are comfortable with it - thus the risk to switching going forward is less if you have executives that back it because they are comfortable with it. Then of course you have all those people that were using Macintosh computers in University, now have moved and are moving into the enterprise market and going up the chain of command.... all of those are comfortable with Apple products. This has got to be uncomfortable for Microsoft since Windows is one of two pillars of their empire (the other Office).
Windows is not in the top of the list for, same as OS X isn't for Apple. And those college students that go to work in enterprise will find a MS services and applications everywhere. They maybe using a Mac, but with Windows and Office. Using and iPhone, but with Exchange and Office 365 as a backend for their email, contacts and calendars. Or maybe they try Windows 10 and abandon OS X.
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With executives in the end it comes down to stocks since the majority of their pay comes stocks which are driven by growth - lower growth - stagnant or dropping market value = very little extra compensation. So Apple taking future markets and now potentially taking existing markets.... well that is what Microsoft did to IBM.
MS has expanded to more important enterprise markets than Apple, including Windows 10 / Office 2016, Azure and the whole list of services, System Center / InTune, Office 365, Dynamics, In premise server software. Compare that to what Apple is doing, trying to push iOS and OS X to the enterprise. Now you may understand why Apple needs Cisco and IBM to get to the enterprise while MS is already there.
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Microsoft use to dwarf Apple - to where Apple was an insignificant gnat to Microsoft. Apple's market cap (at a relatively low PE) is more than Microsoft and IBM combined. In fact Apple could buy IBM with cash on hand (not that I would do that).
Again, I don't understand what importance have the stock market in the discussion. What I can tell you is the MS still dwarf Apple in the enterprise.
Like I posted, before, based in market share and the plans for Windows Phone, I don't think it their focus right now.
Those are estimates, that either could happen or maybe not. MS estimates 1B Windows 10 devices in 2-3 years. Would you believe that too? And based in market share and sales numbers, what happen in your old company is not what happening in most business. And IBM is in the business of enterprise services. They already have partnerships with IBM and Lenovo, and now they add Apple. Windows maybe is "saturated" but they still provide services on top of that. With Apple they expanding, and not necessarily replacing the business options they have.
Looks like Windows Phone is not a priority for MS, very different from the Surface line, where MS is doing very good and growing quickly. And even though PCs sales have decreased, they are far larger than Apple when you compared sales numbers with Lenovo, Dell and HP. Apple market share is growing, but still miles behind. And why you think that Apple entering the enterprise means a complete lose for MS? How many of those Apple users will be using MS Office or Windows in Boot Camp / Virtualized? And based in sales, looks like most business still choosing MS.
Windows is not in the top of the list for, same as OS X isn't for Apple. And those college students that go to work in enterprise will find a MS services and applications everywhere. They maybe using a Mac, but with Windows and Office. Using and iPhone, but with Exchange and Office 365 as a backend for their email, contacts and calendars. Or maybe they try Windows 10 and abandon OS X.
MS has expanded to more important enterprise markets than Apple, including Windows 10 / Office 2016, Azure and the whole list of services, System Center / InTune, Office 365, Dynamics, In premise server software. Compare that to what Apple is doing, trying to push iOS and OS X to the enterprise. Now you may understand why Apple needs Cisco and IBM to get to the enterprise while MS is already there.
Again, I don't understand what importance have the stock market in the discussion. What I can tell you is the MS still dwarf Apple in the enterprise.
So phones are not top of the list or the focus, and PCs was not the focus otherwise they would not have tried to turn all desktops into the new paradigm - whether it made sense or not.... so what is the focus? The two most important departments the two departments that are the bulk of all revenue for Microsoft are Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office.... that sounds rather Windows centric to me.
Getting back to where this whole sub-discussion began it was in response thinking that you don't think MS worries too much. Executives get remunerated in salary / bonuses / stock options -- salary being least important. Executives worry about anything that will cause their numbers to miss targets, and things like having a growing competitor growing in an area where you are stagnating or declining - no matter how small.... because it affects their abilities to meet the targets, and failure to meet their targets hits the executives bottom line. Microsoft as a company as stagnated overall for around 15 years - which has affected the market cap - which has affected many employees that hold options that are underwater. In fact they had to figure out how to fix things for those holding options or lose the top talent in the company because.... they were counting on options going up.... as part of their remuneration. Yes, Apple nibbling won't suddenly shrink Microsoft considerably - there is a lot of legacy cash cows that they can rely on (IBM did that for years and years.... and now they are in turmoil trying to figure out what to turn the company into). Maybe executives at Microsoft don't worry too much, maybe that is the reason for Microsoft's long stagnation.... complacency.
It is also why I keep on bringing up the stock itself - it is a very important remuneration vehicle at tech companies - it is what is used to attract top talent. For a company that is just worrying about exploiting their cash cows and don't worry about growth it might not be an issue if you lose your top people since you are not utilizing them to their fullest anyway.
You have repeatedly said how good the Surface line is doing - and yes it did grow at 44%..... but seriously.... The third quarter generated $713 million (not billion) in revenue (not profit). That probably translates to between 500 to 750 thousand units sold.... I believe that is less than the number of macbook air or macbook pro laptops sold - but somehow that is significant while apples sales are not? You just mentioned that Apple had a fraction of sales and therefore there was nothing to worry about.... well if those sales are nothing to worry about the surface sales are even less to worry about.
So phones are not top of the list or the focus, and PCs was not the focus otherwise they would not have tried to turn all desktops into the new paradigm - whether it made sense or not.... so what is the focus? The two most important departments the two departments that are the bulk of all revenue for Microsoft are Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office.... that sounds rather Windows centric to me.
Based in what I have read, MS is very focus in cloud and expanding the customer bases that use their services. That's the reason you see Office for iOS and Android, and Azure instances with Linux, Oracle, and even made a partnership with Salesforce. Windows still very important, but there are other products and services that are doing as good or better than Windows / Windows Phone.
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Getting back to where this whole sub-discussion began it was in response thinking that you don't think MS worries too much. Executives get remunerated in salary / bonuses / stock options -- salary being least important. Executives worry about anything that will cause their numbers to miss targets, and things like having a growing competitor growing in an area where you are stagnating or declining - no matter how small.... because it affects their abilities to meet the targets, and failure to meet their targets hits the executives bottom line. Microsoft as a company as stagnated overall for around 15 years - which has affected the market cap - which has affected many employees that hold options that are underwater. In fact they had to figure out how to fix things for those holding options or lose the top talent in the company because.... they were counting on options going up.... as part of their remuneration. Yes, Apple nibbling won't suddenly shrink Microsoft considerably - there is a lot of legacy cash cows that they can rely on (IBM did that for years and years.... and now they are in turmoil trying to figure out what to turn the company into). Maybe executives at Microsoft don't worry too much, maybe that is the reason for Microsoft's long stagnation.... complacency.
It is also why I keep on bringing up the stock itself - it is a very important remuneration vehicle at tech companies - it is what is used to attract top talent. For a company that is just worrying about exploiting their cash cows and don't worry about growth it might not be an issue if you lose your top people since you are not utilizing them to their fullest anyway.
I don't know anything of the stock market, so I can't comment on it. But I find interesting how a company that, based in your post, is doing so bad with stocks, but at the same time, still is the largest software developer in the world, have on of the most successful and largest cloud services available (only behind Amazon), have one of the most recognised and best applications available, MS Office. In addition, they enter the hardware market with the Surface Pro, that with only three years, is one of the best devices available today. Plus, (and returning to the article) is one of the most recognised brand in the enterprise.
Compare that to Apple, which is one of the largest companies in the world, with billions in cash, and their fortune is based in the iPhone, which is a great device. A part from that, sales from iPad are down quickly and devices like as important as the MBA haven't seen a mejor upgrade in years. Their latest releases of iOS and OS X have been buggier than before (based on what I read and my own experience), and releasing products as bad as the Macbook, iWorks and Photos as replacement for Aperture. Plus (following the article) they don't have a strong presence in cloud services or in the enterprise. Even the Apple TV haven't receive a major update in years, and now other devices are passing it (maybe the next week event at last changes that). Add to that the Apple Watch and Apple Music, both who were critizised for having a poor UI, among other things. And to close, the new Macbook, which is has one of the worst keyboards I have ever used (maybe even worst than the SP3), in addition to the poor performance. But none of these things that affect users are important, since Apple is doing great at the stock market. Looks like Apple is the complacent one, not MS.
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You have repeatedly said how good the Surface line is doing - and yes it did grow at 44%..... but seriously.... The third quarter generated $713 million (not billion) in revenue (not profit). That probably translates to between 500 to 750 thousand units sold.... I believe that is less than the number of macbook air or macbook pro laptops sold - but somehow that is significant while apples sales are not? You just mentioned that Apple had a fraction of sales and therefore there was nothing to worry about.... well if those sales are nothing to worry about the surface sales are even less to worry about.
Surface growth have been great, and looks like the SP4 will be a very good device. Interesting that the only hardware offering from MS is doing so good, while a lot of people demise it from the start. It's clear that MBA and MBP sells more (remember that Apple have been in the hardware market since the beginning), but that they have done in only three years have been very good, even more when you consider this is their first device they develop from scratch (a part from the Xbox). Right now Apple don't have to worry, but it's sad to see how MS is the one innovating and releasing great devices while Apple releases the same old MBA/MBP every year, and when they release a new device, is the Macbook. Personally I'm looking forward to replace my MBA with a SP4. Hope it's better than the SP3, that was a great device.
Comments
I don't think MS worries too much. They already have partnerships with many enterprises vendors, including Cisco and IBM. Plus, they have a long list of services, applications and the Surface line, that I don't think that enterprises acquiring more Apple devices could hurt them too much.
Uncle Fester blew away a decade of market lead in which Apple moved from a pimple on Fester's ass to a bleeding boil on his nose, and you say MS doesn't worry too much? There's a reason that Win 7 is the most installed MS OS, and Fester and Friends aren't worried? In 2007 MS got woke up with the iPhone and despite eight years of effort, the MS phone is STILL not a finished product. I'd be more then worried.
MS once had every IT manager firmly in their pocket 10 years ago and now that's no longer true. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no way for MS to put the cork back in... The overall corporate reach has moved from aggressively extending its reach to one of loss mitigation; that's reason enough right there for concern. The past is littered with hundreds of one proud names; the leaders of computer technology who made smaller mis-steps than MS has, and they're gone gone gone.
I don't think MS worries too much. They already have partnerships with many enterprises vendors, including Cisco and IBM. Plus, they have a long list of services, applications and the Surface line, that I don't think that enterprises acquiring more Apple devices could hurt them too much.
Really, I would be surprised if MS does not worry about anything that can cause the PC shipments or Windows shipments or mobile devices to go down in market-share.... because it affects the bottom line on one of two divisions that have always produced the bulk of Microsoft revenue/profits (Windows and Office). Office is less affected since it runs on the device regardless, but Windows and it's dominance is very important to Microsoft.
As for the Cisco / Apple partnership.... it is not exclusive and Cisco partners with any company that has the potential to move the needle on revenue or keep the needle from dropping when it comes to revenue / profits. It is a win to be high profile with Cisco -- simply because it raises your profile in corporations for any serious big relationship with old iron / old networking behemoths. So win for Apple.... no real loss yet for microsoft..... it is not a zero-sum game with this one..... just potential to give more companies options in the future.
Uncle Fester blew away a decade of market lead in which Apple moved from a pimple on Fester's ass to a bleeding boil on his nose, and you say MS doesn't worry too much? There's a reason that Win 7 is the most installed MS OS, and Fester and Friends aren't worried? In 2007 MS got woke up with the iPhone and despite eight years of effort, the MS phone is STILL not a finished product. I'd be more then worried.
Yes, MS blew many things in the past, but one of the markets were they did right, and keep doing it, is the enterprise. W7 is the most installed OS, and based in the latest numbers, W10 is the next one. And yes, Apple is doing far better than MS with the iPhone, but the enterprise is much more than that, and yes, Apple is the one far behind.
Based in what MS doing, looks like they still have the enterprise in their pockets. And now they expand with Azure (and the long list of services it includes), Office 365, Surface Pro's and W10. Even with the lot of mistakes they make in the past, they still the largest software company in the world, doing billions per quarter. Looks like the missteps they made didn't bring them down, and with the changes they made the past year, looks like they'll do better. Maybe you don't like them, but they do some of the best products for the enterprise.
Really, I would be surprised if MS does not worry about anything that can cause the PC shipments or Windows shipments or mobile devices to go down in market-share.... because it affects the bottom line on one of two divisions that have always produced the bulk of Microsoft revenue/profits (Windows and Office). Office is less affected since it runs on the device regardless, but Windows and it's dominance is very important to Microsoft.
As for the Cisco / Apple partnership.... it is not exclusive and Cisco partners with any company that has the potential to move the needle on revenue or keep the needle from dropping when it comes to revenue / profits. It is a win to be high profile with Cisco -- simply because it raises your profile in corporations for any serious big relationship with old iron / old networking behemoths. So win for Apple.... no real loss yet for microsoft..... it is not a zero-sum game with this one..... just potential to give more companies options in the future.
Based in what I read, the Cisco/Apple partnership is for iOS devices, so it won't affect Windows/Office. It may affect Windows Phone, but I don't think that's a priority for them.
Based in what I read, the Cisco/Apple partnership is for iOS devices, so it won't affect Windows/Office. It may affect Windows Phone, but I don't think that's a priority for them.
And IBM partnership started with iOS devices as well.......
So where are all the usual trolls who like to constantly claim that Tim Cook is a useless CEO, has done nothing for Apple, and should be fired? Seems to me like he is quietly working with premiere partners to grow Apple's business into markets where it traditionally has been very small. While enterprise and verticals are not as large as consumer, in terms of Apple's product set, they are good areas for growth, and Apple seems to be doing some smart moves.
And IBM partnership started with iOS devices as well.......
MS still doing very good even with the Apple + IBM partnership. What will be different if Cisco expand the partnership to other Apple devices?
MS still doing very good even with the Apple + IBM partnership. What will be different if Cisco expand the partnership to other Apple devices?
How do you measure very good?
IBM has just started in earnest their partnership in regards to non-iOS devices.... so recently that if you saw any data about the impact you have made it up. The potential is for IBM to be disruptive in an environment that is almost entirely Microsoft's domain. Now I don't expect everyone or even the vast majority of companies to suddenly throw out their windows computers and bring in Apple devices.... it would be much more gradual than that. In a market that is seeing year over year PC shipments drop of 9% while Apple increases (which has to have an affect on the bottom line) any additional decline due to ANY Apple sales in offices..... to be very much unwanted. Each additional enterprise services company supporting Macs in the enterprise is an additional change of a few percent on PC shipments to the enterprise.... which all translates into the markets. I can tell you from personal experience that ANY incursion into what a company sees as their customer..... and management goes nuts..... because it is a threat..... a big threat..... experience shows that once a customer becomes comfortable with another competing product it does two things -- it is not out of the realm of possibility that they replace you across the board or they use it in negotiations when it comes to licensing agreements.... both affect your bottom line as well. iPhones were the first incursion, iPads are another...... when executives become comfortable with those and often have macs at home..... then it is a threat.
It is not something where you would see a huge swing the day it is announced, nor do I expect suddenly Microsoft will lose money..... they are more than a one trick pony and even if Windows were replaced with a Mac they would probably still have Office in there since that is what people have used up until that point.
For companies - if you are not growing - you are legacy. The senior management pay packages options etc. are based on growth. Growth that Microsoft has been sorely lacking in Microsoft for 15+ years. (I have friends with Microsoft options that had gone no-where -- people a few years earlier have cashed in.... but not them - I have not heard of any updates to say things have suddenly changed).
How do you measure very good?
IBM has just started in earnest their partnership in regards to non-iOS devices.... so recently that if you saw any data about the impact you have made it up. The potential is for IBM to be disruptive in an environment that is almost entirely Microsoft's domain. Now I don't expect everyone or even the vast majority of companies to suddenly throw out their windows computers and bring in Apple devices.... it would be much more gradual than that. In a market that is seeing year over year PC shipments drop of 9% while Apple increases (which has to have an affect on the bottom line) any additional decline due to ANY Apple sales in offices..... to be very much unwanted. Each additional enterprise services company supporting Macs in the enterprise is an additional change of a few percent on PC shipments to the enterprise.... which all translates into the markets. I can tell you from personal experience that ANY incursion into what a company sees as their customer..... and management goes nuts..... because it is a threat..... a big threat..... experience shows that once a customer becomes comfortable with another competing product it does two things -- it is not out of the realm of possibility that they replace you across the board or they use it in negotiations when it comes to licensing agreements.... both affect your bottom line as well. iPhones were the first incursion, iPads are another...... when executives become comfortable with those and often have macs at home..... then it is a threat.
It is not something where you would see a huge swing the day it is announced, nor do I expect suddenly Microsoft will lose money..... they are more than a one trick pony and even if Windows were replaced with a Mac they would probably still have Office in there since that is what people have used up until that point.
For companies - if you are not growing - you are legacy. The senior management pay packages options etc. are based on growth. Growth that Microsoft has been sorely lacking in Microsoft for 15+ years. (I have friends with Microsoft options that had gone no-where -- people a few years earlier have cashed in.... but not them - I have not heard of any updates to say things have suddenly changed).
You used the word "Potential", and that's the thing. IBM may be successful or it could fail. The rest of your post is an assumption, and in the same way I can write a long list of things on how Mac's and iPad may fail in the enterprise. Apple is the one who need IBM to get to the enterprise, not backwards. If enterprises stay with MS applications, IBM will still support them, they will not lose business. Remember, they have a partnership too, for years (and I think they even have a partnership with Lenovo). And based in the reviews, W10 has done many things right, and sometimes even better than OS X, plus have the benefit of supporting the long list of vertical and legacy applications. That may slow down the Mac's deployments in the enterprise. Let's see what happens in the future. But right now is that MS is dominating the enterprise in the desktop, server room and cloud, while Apple have the iPhones and to some degree, iPads.
BTW, is your last paragraph related to stocks? Why do you think is related to the article?
You used the word "Potential", and that's the thing. IBM may be successful or it could fail. The rest of your post is an assumption, and in the same way I can write a long list of things on how Mac's and iPad may fail in the enterprise. Apple is the one who need IBM to get to the enterprise, not backwards. If enterprises stay with MS applications, IBM will still support them, they will not lose business. Remember, they have a partnership too, for years (and I think they even have a partnership with Lenovo). And based in the reviews, W10 has done many things right, and sometimes even better than OS X, plus have the benefit of supporting the long list of vertical and legacy applications. That may slow down the Mac's deployments in the enterprise. Let's see what happens in the future. But right now is that MS is dominating the enterprise in the desktop, server room and cloud, while Apple have the iPhones and to some degree, iPads.
BTW, is your last paragraph related to stocks? Why do you think is related to the article?
We are talking about the future and thus potential gain - potential loss - or potentially the same whether stated explicitly or not is all speculative.
Back when I worked in the office back in Canada/US/UK - there was only one company I know of that had macintosh computers, no ipads or iphones which did not exist and no incursions into all other companies. (My experience is in business specific software).
People buying iPhones had an impact with people buying iPads (and yes iPads are more widely used in the Enterprise than macs) which in personal buying patterns has resulted in people buying macintoshes for home (including executives of companies that only were windows users and not Apple products). iPhones are everywhere in the office..... microsoft is just not used...... if there is one competitor in that space it is now Android phones as Blackberries are becoming less evident.
Now you have to define what is failure for IBM? 0 of their clients buying it, 10% deployment, 50%. I think I am being very conservative in that I expect maybe anywhere between 0 -> 10%. The difference with IBM is that they are walking the walk.... estimates are for 70% of their workforce to switch to Mac OS (and the internal numbers are rising; I personally expect it to hit 90%).... just because they were given a choice. My old consulting company gave employees (around 2000 employees) a choice and according to my grapevine..... 90% of the employees went with Macs. (both these companies are more technically oriented than the average). The difference here for IBM is that they are entering a new business area - one that they see as a growth market..... with less competitors as the "Windows" market that is saturated for a shrinking market.... which means it is in their interest to encourage companies that could be persuaded to go with Apple products.....
Of course IBM will support existing Windows installations - they support our software running Oracle even though it would be in their interest to have it run on DB2 (but it was too expensive at the time to encourage us to move to DB2 - and the topic has not be revisited). But with both cases it is in their interest for customers to use Apple products over Windows products and thus they will be incentivised to do so in cases where the customer is open to the idea.
Microsofts own projects are for them to barely hit 2% of the phone market.
Microsoft's surface is more oriented to "laptop" sales than those buying tablets - and even so their sales although better than expected are relatively miniscule as compared to the market.
Microsoft's Windows market (PC's) are seeing a year-over-year decline on a regular basis - and I don't see that changing much in the mid-term. Apple increasing their marketshare in the enterprise is at best a zero-sum game for Microsoft. So if it rises 2%, Microsoft falls 2%.
Up until now most businesses would go with Microsoft - executives used Windows and choosing anything else was just risky.
Now look at the home market.... go University campuses.... and there are macs everywhere. My father was a president/ceo and was always true-blue.... and that meant IBM PCs with Windows, IBM mainframes, etc. His children - me switched to Apple in 2008, my elder sister in 2011, my younger sister probably around the same time. If my father were still working he would be surrounded by people using Apple products -- and we would probably have him running it as well. Many executives now have iPhones, and quite a few have Apple products (where before it was none to speak of) - they are comfortable with it - thus the risk to switching going forward is less if you have executives that back it because they are comfortable with it. Then of course you have all those people that were using Macintosh computers in University, now have moved and are moving into the enterprise market and going up the chain of command.... all of those are comfortable with Apple products. This has got to be uncomfortable for Microsoft since Windows is one of two pillars of their empire (the other Office).
With executives in the end it comes down to stocks since the majority of their pay comes stocks which are driven by growth - lower growth - stagnant or dropping market value = very little extra compensation. So Apple taking future markets and now potentially taking existing markets.... well that is what Microsoft did to IBM.
Microsoft use to dwarf Apple - to where Apple was an insignificant gnat to Microsoft. Apple's market cap (at a relatively low PE) is more than Microsoft and IBM combined. In fact Apple could buy IBM with cash on hand (not that I would do that).
Originally Posted by bkkcanuck
People buying iPhones had an impact with people buying iPads (and yes iPads are more widely used in the Enterprise than macs) which in personal buying patterns has resulted in people buying macintoshes for home (including executives of companies that only were windows users and not Apple products). iPhones are everywhere in the office..... microsoft is just not used...... if there is one competitor in that space it is now Android phones as Blackberries are becoming less evident.
Like I posted, before, based in market share and the plans for Windows Phone, I don't think it their focus right now.
Those are estimates, that either could happen or maybe not. MS estimates 1B Windows 10 devices in 2-3 years. Would you believe that too? And based in market share and sales numbers, what happen in your old company is not what happening in most business. And IBM is in the business of enterprise services. They already have partnerships with IBM and Lenovo, and now they add Apple. Windows maybe is "saturated" but they still provide services on top of that. With Apple they expanding, and not necessarily replacing the business options they have.
Microsofts own projects are for them to barely hit 2% of the phone market.
Microsoft's surface is more oriented to "laptop" sales than those buying tablets - and even so their sales although better than expected are relatively miniscule as compared to the market.
Microsoft's Windows market (PC's) are seeing a year-over-year decline on a regular basis - and I don't see that changing much in the mid-term. Apple increasing their marketshare in the enterprise is at best a zero-sum game for Microsoft. So if it rises 2%, Microsoft falls 2%.
Up until now most businesses would go with Microsoft - executives used Windows and choosing anything else was just risky.
Looks like Windows Phone is not a priority for MS, very different from the Surface line, where MS is doing very good and growing quickly. And even though PCs sales have decreased, they are far larger than Apple when you compared sales numbers with Lenovo, Dell and HP. Apple market share is growing, but still miles behind. And why you think that Apple entering the enterprise means a complete lose for MS? How many of those Apple users will be using MS Office or Windows in Boot Camp / Virtualized? And based in sales, looks like most business still choosing MS.
Windows is not in the top of the list for, same as OS X isn't for Apple. And those college students that go to work in enterprise will find a MS services and applications everywhere. They maybe using a Mac, but with Windows and Office. Using and iPhone, but with Exchange and Office 365 as a backend for their email, contacts and calendars. Or maybe they try Windows 10 and abandon OS X.
MS has expanded to more important enterprise markets than Apple, including Windows 10 / Office 2016, Azure and the whole list of services, System Center / InTune, Office 365, Dynamics, In premise server software. Compare that to what Apple is doing, trying to push iOS and OS X to the enterprise. Now you may understand why Apple needs Cisco and IBM to get to the enterprise while MS is already there.
Again, I don't understand what importance have the stock market in the discussion. What I can tell you is the MS still dwarf Apple in the enterprise.
Like I posted, before, based in market share and the plans for Windows Phone, I don't think it their focus right now.
Those are estimates, that either could happen or maybe not. MS estimates 1B Windows 10 devices in 2-3 years. Would you believe that too? And based in market share and sales numbers, what happen in your old company is not what happening in most business. And IBM is in the business of enterprise services. They already have partnerships with IBM and Lenovo, and now they add Apple. Windows maybe is "saturated" but they still provide services on top of that. With Apple they expanding, and not necessarily replacing the business options they have.
Looks like Windows Phone is not a priority for MS, very different from the Surface line, where MS is doing very good and growing quickly. And even though PCs sales have decreased, they are far larger than Apple when you compared sales numbers with Lenovo, Dell and HP. Apple market share is growing, but still miles behind. And why you think that Apple entering the enterprise means a complete lose for MS? How many of those Apple users will be using MS Office or Windows in Boot Camp / Virtualized? And based in sales, looks like most business still choosing MS.
Windows is not in the top of the list for, same as OS X isn't for Apple. And those college students that go to work in enterprise will find a MS services and applications everywhere. They maybe using a Mac, but with Windows and Office. Using and iPhone, but with Exchange and Office 365 as a backend for their email, contacts and calendars. Or maybe they try Windows 10 and abandon OS X.
MS has expanded to more important enterprise markets than Apple, including Windows 10 / Office 2016, Azure and the whole list of services, System Center / InTune, Office 365, Dynamics, In premise server software. Compare that to what Apple is doing, trying to push iOS and OS X to the enterprise. Now you may understand why Apple needs Cisco and IBM to get to the enterprise while MS is already there.
Again, I don't understand what importance have the stock market in the discussion. What I can tell you is the MS still dwarf Apple in the enterprise.
So phones are not top of the list or the focus, and PCs was not the focus otherwise they would not have tried to turn all desktops into the new paradigm - whether it made sense or not.... so what is the focus? The two most important departments the two departments that are the bulk of all revenue for Microsoft are Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office.... that sounds rather Windows centric to me.
Getting back to where this whole sub-discussion began it was in response thinking that you don't think MS worries too much. Executives get remunerated in salary / bonuses / stock options -- salary being least important. Executives worry about anything that will cause their numbers to miss targets, and things like having a growing competitor growing in an area where you are stagnating or declining - no matter how small.... because it affects their abilities to meet the targets, and failure to meet their targets hits the executives bottom line. Microsoft as a company as stagnated overall for around 15 years - which has affected the market cap - which has affected many employees that hold options that are underwater. In fact they had to figure out how to fix things for those holding options or lose the top talent in the company because.... they were counting on options going up.... as part of their remuneration. Yes, Apple nibbling won't suddenly shrink Microsoft considerably - there is a lot of legacy cash cows that they can rely on (IBM did that for years and years.... and now they are in turmoil trying to figure out what to turn the company into). Maybe executives at Microsoft don't worry too much, maybe that is the reason for Microsoft's long stagnation.... complacency.
It is also why I keep on bringing up the stock itself - it is a very important remuneration vehicle at tech companies - it is what is used to attract top talent. For a company that is just worrying about exploiting their cash cows and don't worry about growth it might not be an issue if you lose your top people since you are not utilizing them to their fullest anyway.
You have repeatedly said how good the Surface line is doing - and yes it did grow at 44%..... but seriously.... The third quarter generated $713 million (not billion) in revenue (not profit). That probably translates to between 500 to 750 thousand units sold.... I believe that is less than the number of macbook air or macbook pro laptops sold - but somehow that is significant while apples sales are not? You just mentioned that Apple had a fraction of sales and therefore there was nothing to worry about.... well if those sales are nothing to worry about the surface sales are even less to worry about.
Based in what I have read, MS is very focus in cloud and expanding the customer bases that use their services. That's the reason you see Office for iOS and Android, and Azure instances with Linux, Oracle, and even made a partnership with Salesforce. Windows still very important, but there are other products and services that are doing as good or better than Windows / Windows Phone.
Getting back to where this whole sub-discussion began it was in response thinking that you don't think MS worries too much. Executives get remunerated in salary / bonuses / stock options -- salary being least important. Executives worry about anything that will cause their numbers to miss targets, and things like having a growing competitor growing in an area where you are stagnating or declining - no matter how small.... because it affects their abilities to meet the targets, and failure to meet their targets hits the executives bottom line. Microsoft as a company as stagnated overall for around 15 years - which has affected the market cap - which has affected many employees that hold options that are underwater. In fact they had to figure out how to fix things for those holding options or lose the top talent in the company because.... they were counting on options going up.... as part of their remuneration. Yes, Apple nibbling won't suddenly shrink Microsoft considerably - there is a lot of legacy cash cows that they can rely on (IBM did that for years and years.... and now they are in turmoil trying to figure out what to turn the company into). Maybe executives at Microsoft don't worry too much, maybe that is the reason for Microsoft's long stagnation.... complacency.
It is also why I keep on bringing up the stock itself - it is a very important remuneration vehicle at tech companies - it is what is used to attract top talent. For a company that is just worrying about exploiting their cash cows and don't worry about growth it might not be an issue if you lose your top people since you are not utilizing them to their fullest anyway.
I don't know anything of the stock market, so I can't comment on it. But I find interesting how a company that, based in your post, is doing so bad with stocks, but at the same time, still is the largest software developer in the world, have on of the most successful and largest cloud services available (only behind Amazon), have one of the most recognised and best applications available, MS Office. In addition, they enter the hardware market with the Surface Pro, that with only three years, is one of the best devices available today. Plus, (and returning to the article) is one of the most recognised brand in the enterprise.
Compare that to Apple, which is one of the largest companies in the world, with billions in cash, and their fortune is based in the iPhone, which is a great device. A part from that, sales from iPad are down quickly and devices like as important as the MBA haven't seen a mejor upgrade in years. Their latest releases of iOS and OS X have been buggier than before (based on what I read and my own experience), and releasing products as bad as the Macbook, iWorks and Photos as replacement for Aperture. Plus (following the article) they don't have a strong presence in cloud services or in the enterprise. Even the Apple TV haven't receive a major update in years, and now other devices are passing it (maybe the next week event at last changes that). Add to that the Apple Watch and Apple Music, both who were critizised for having a poor UI, among other things. And to close, the new Macbook, which is has one of the worst keyboards I have ever used (maybe even worst than the SP3), in addition to the poor performance. But none of these things that affect users are important, since Apple is doing great at the stock market. Looks like Apple is the complacent one, not MS.
Surface growth have been great, and looks like the SP4 will be a very good device. Interesting that the only hardware offering from MS is doing so good, while a lot of people demise it from the start. It's clear that MBA and MBP sells more (remember that Apple have been in the hardware market since the beginning), but that they have done in only three years have been very good, even more when you consider this is their first device they develop from scratch (a part from the Xbox). Right now Apple don't have to worry, but it's sad to see how MS is the one innovating and releasing great devices while Apple releases the same old MBA/MBP every year, and when they release a new device, is the Macbook. Personally I'm looking forward to replace my MBA with a SP4. Hope it's better than the SP3, that was a great device.