im a tech guy and built countless PC rigs over the years. but even I've never changed a HD on any of my macs. i get them, they do the job, and when i need something else i give away or sell the old one. its an appliance. that a few tinkerers do swap out drives is no reason for apple not to push the envelope on integrated system designs.
I just had to get the hdd/ssd (fusion drive, so I dont really know which one) replaced on my late 2012 iMac, I got a mail from apple that it was in a series that might have a problematic disk, and just about the same time I actually started having problems that were typical for a failing drive. So I took it to my local appledealer, and it was fixed for free, which was nice, but it took a week, which was not so nice, especially for something that I used to be able to do in a few minutes myself.
This is the perfect analogy. Apple closing off the ability to change the RAM and HD is tantamount to a car manufacturer sealing the hood of a car preventing you changing the oil, washer fluid, brake fluid, coolant or any other user-serviceable item requiring a complete engine change out instead. Whats the sense?
I don't know how to car - at all - but those things are far cheaper, and very easy, to replace myself - just like RAM in a computer.
This is the perfect analogy. Apple closing off the ability to change the RAM and HD is tantamount to a car manufacturer sealing the hood of a car preventing you changing the oil, washer fluid, brake fluid, coolant or any other user-serviceable item requiring a complete engine change out instead. Whats the sense?
I don't know how to car - at all - but those things are far cheaper, and very easy, to replace myself - just like RAM in a computer.
Nope, those are maintenance items. If a car manufacturer could develop lifetime fluids and belts (and plugs... etc) there would be no need to open the hood. (and they would likely bolt it closed, similar to what they do with batteries in Hybrids & electric cars)
Ram is not a consumable (like washer fluid) nor does it need periodic maintenance (like belts, hoses, oil etc) so you analogy is just flat incorrect.
Nope, those are maintenance items. If a car manufacturer could develop lifetime fluids and belts (and plugs... etc) there would be no need to open the hood. (and they would likely bolt it closed, similar to what they do with batteries in Hybrids & electric cars)
Ram is not a consumable (like washer fluid) nor does it need periodic maintenance (like belts, hoses, oil etc) so you analogy is just flat incorrect.
Wanting to swap out[upgrade] RAM in a computer to make it run smoother is no different than wanting to change the oil in a car to make it run smoother. If I'd have been unable to upgrade the RAM or HD in any of my laptops they'd have had far shorter lifespans, and likewise if you never changed your cars fluids then you'd be running to the car garage for a new one every couple of years.
Both when properly maintained last a hell of a lot longer, soldered-on RAM and HD just force a complete internal replacement rather than a simple upgrade. Forcing someone to buy a new computer, costing thousands, rather than a simple RAM upgrade a fraction of the cost is exploitation and I don't see how anyone could consider it an appropriate thing to do.
People wouldn't stand it in their car, they shouldn't in their computer, either.
Wanting to swap out[upgrade] RAM in a computer to make it run smoother is no different than wanting to change the oil in a car to make it run smoother. If I'd have been unable to upgrade the RAM or HD in any of my laptops they'd have had far shorter lifespans, and likewise if you never changed your cars fluids then you'd be running to the car garage for a new one every couple of years.
Both when properly maintained last a hell of a lot longer, soldered-on RAM and HD just force a complete internal replacement rather than a simple upgrade. Forcing someone to buy a new computer, costing thousands, rather than a simple RAM upgrade a fraction of the cost is exploitation and I don't see how anyone could consider it an appropriate thing to do.
People wouldn't stand it in their car, they shouldn't in their computer, either.
Oh please your tired diatribe has reached the level of absurdity. Don't you ever feel embarrassed to write this kind of nonsense?
No changing Oil (or belts or oil or windshield washer fluid ) is NOT like upgrading RAM (or CPU or disk drive). That would be more akin to swapping out the exhaust or intake system (for better performance)
Fluid changes are -maintenance- in a car the car needs to have them done, A desktop (or laptop) computer needs no maintenance.
Wanting to swap out[upgrade] RAM in a computer to make it run smoother is no different than wanting to change the oil in a car to make it run smoother. If I'd have been unable to upgrade the RAM or HD in any of my laptops they'd have had far shorter lifespans, and likewise if you never changed your cars fluids then you'd be running to the car garage for a new one every couple of years.
this is where your analogy falls down; your needs have merely outgrown what the computer is capable of providing, equivalent to someone who now has a family of seven no longer able to carry his family in his car that seats four.
The computer and the car are still both perfectly functional.
Most people will go and buy a new larger vehicle once they reach that stage; you're advocating welding a bigger body and some extra seats onto that car of four.
If the engine is powerful enough and the chassis strong enough it just may work…
this is where your analogy falls down; your needs have merely outgrown what the computer is capable of providing, equivalent to someone who now has a family of seven no longer able to carry his family in his car that seats four.
The computer and the car are still both perfectly functional.
Most people will go and buy a new larger vehicle once they reach that stage; you're advocating welding a bigger body and some extra seats onto that car of four.
If the engine is powerful enough and the chassis strong enough it just may work…
I'm sorry, but the process of changing ram in a computer is about as difficult as putting petrol in the car. It's far, far easier than an oil change and is, in most computers including a lot of Apples, a process that takes nothing more than a few minutes (if that) with zero setup software-side. It's in no way comparable to welding a new portion onto an existing car. It's an incredibly simple and should be cheap way to increase performance on an aging computer to get more life out of it (or just do routine upgrades) and soldering RAM to the motherboard denies the consumer of this opportunity and this is why I compare it to changing oil.
Comparing changing RAM to re-welding the chassis is a bizarre, at best. You're failing to convince me of any good reason Apple would chose to make the RAM soldered; I can still only see a mad cash grab because there's people out there - like yourself, seemingly - that don't mind forking over unnecessary cash to fund some brand loyalty.
I'm sorry, but the process of changing ram in a computer is about as difficult as putting petrol in the car.
It's an incredibly simple and should be cheap way to increase performance on an aging computer to get more life out of it (or just do routine upgrades) and soldering RAM to the motherboard denies the consumer of this opportunity and this is why I compare it to changing oil.
Seriously? Unlike putting petrol in a car, most computers require at least a screwdriver to open the case before you can can even consider changing the RAM.
You say my example of welding the extra body is bizarre, yet you equate RAM in a computer, which doesn't have to be replenished for the computer to function, with gasoline (petrol), the fuel which is expended with the use of the vehicle and has to be constantly replenished.
Petrol is to the car what electricity and battery charge are to the computer.
Also other than keeping it clean and supplying power, the computer, unlike a car, requires no further physical maintenance to retain its full function.
The computer with the 4GB RAM /80 GB drive remains fully functional whether you use it one hour a month or 24/7.
What you failed to understand from my example with the welding is that you're expanding a system that is already perfectly physically functional.
Maybe a better way of expressing this is that you're fitting in extra seats into the same car that had four seats.
Also there's only so much room before you need to buy a new car anyway, just as older motherboards can only address so much of the new memory. Example, the 2008 Macbook can unofficially use 8GB (2x4GB) of memory despite being officially capable of only 4GB (2x2GB) as a maximum. I doubt it'll be able to use the new 8GB memory cards.
You're failing to convince me of any good reason Apple would chose to make the RAM soldered; I can still only see a mad cash grab because there's people out there - like yourself, seemingly - that don't mind forking over unnecessary cash to fund some brand loyalty.
MAJANI doesn't see any good reason for soldering RAM despite the evidence of its advantages. There's plenty out there, you don't need to take my word for it: from the Surface Mount Council Technology Overview:
The most obvious benefits of Surface Mount Technology (SMT) compared to older through-hole (TH) technology is increased circuit density and improved electrical performance.
Less obvious benefits include reduced process costs, higher product quality, reduced handling costs, and higher reliability.
also:
Space savings depend on the type of product and the ratio of SMT to through-hole components. Space savings of 50 to 90 percent have been achieved.
The greatest savings occur for products that have a large percentage of integrated circuits that are available in SMT, FPT, ultra fine pitch (UFP), array surface mount (ASM) or chip scale package (CSP) mounting.
Improved electrical performance usually appears as higher operating speed and frequency. Surface Mounting Components lower the parasitic lead and conductor inductance while improving capacitance, resistance and other performance characteristics.
So MAJANI, you're happier to forego reliability for plugging things in and out of your motherboard; you're in the minority, especially when you consider most consumers and even businesses don't waste time with upgrading their computers.
MAJANI doesn't see any good reason for soldering RAM despite the evidence of its advantages. There's plenty out there, you don't need to take my word for it: from the Surface Mount Council Technology Overview
I'd like to point out that you're mistaken on the differences between what through-hole and SMT are and your source from 1999 is actually not relevant. All modern RAM DIMMs use SMT to mount the memory modules to DIMMs and no one is arguing that it's anything but better than older technologies. Having motherboard-integrated memory modules eliminates the DIMM socket and nothing more - the actual modules themselves are the same modules and retain the same global failure rates, which is sitting at an estimate of .84% currently.
What is eliminated using integrated RAM is the hardware failure that can arise from DIMMs themselves becoming unseated (very common) but this is a free repair. If the memory modules themselves fail, the DIMM needs replaced. If the modules are integrated into the motherboard proper, the motherboard needs replaced which is far, far more costly.
Following industry standards, Apple is taking the hit of having to replace the motherboard in roughly 1 in every 119 iMacs sold. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this, as the form factor of the iMac doesn't demand the lower profile (we've seen the teardown) provided which is 99.9% the benefit of integrated modules. In a laptop, sure, but a desktop? Doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it.
I'd like to point out that you're mistaken on the differences between what through-hole and SMT are and your source from 1999 is actually not relevant. All modern RAM DIMMs use SMT to mount the memory modules to DIMMs and no one is arguing that it's anything but better than older technologies. Having motherboard-integrated memory modules eliminates the DIMM socket and nothing more - the actual modules themselves are the same modules and retain the same global failure rates, which is sitting at an estimate of .84% currently.
What is eliminated using integrated RAM is the hardware failure that can arise from DIMMs themselves becoming unseated (very common) but this is a free repair. If the memory modules themselves fail, the DIMM needs replaced. If the modules are integrated into the motherboard proper, the motherboard needs replaced which is far, far more costly.
Following industry standards, Apple is taking the hit of having to replace the motherboard in roughly 1 in every 119 iMacs sold. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this, as the form factor of the iMac doesn't demand the lower profile (we've seen the teardown) provided which is 99.9% the benefit of integrated modules. In a laptop, sure, but a desktop? Doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it.
This indicates that you think you are smarter than Jony Ive.
Comments
I just had to get the hdd/ssd (fusion drive, so I dont really know which one) replaced on my late 2012 iMac, I got a mail from apple that it was in a series that might have a problematic disk, and just about the same time I actually started having problems that were typical for a failing drive. So I took it to my local appledealer, and it was fixed for free, which was nice, but it took a week, which was not so nice, especially for something that I used to be able to do in a few minutes myself.
Doesn't mean the CPU isn't user-replaceable... Just means you need to know how to solder and have a decent set of CPU soldering equipment.
Sigh
Like anyone is going to try and de-solder and re-solder a broadwell chip without worrying about fucking the chip or the board.
sigh.
Says who? Your BYOPC worldview?
The Mac has had soldered-in RAM chips since 1984. This is not a new thing for Apple.
actually my current MBP 13" and iMac 21.5" are the FIRST Macs with soldered RAM I've ever seen ... Apple user since 1989
Have you ever opened the hood of your car?
This is the perfect analogy. Apple closing off the ability to change the RAM and HD is tantamount to a car manufacturer sealing the hood of a car preventing you changing the oil, washer fluid, brake fluid, coolant or any other user-serviceable item requiring a complete engine change out instead. Whats the sense?
I don't know how to car - at all - but those things are far cheaper, and very easy, to replace myself - just like RAM in a computer.
This is the perfect analogy. Apple closing off the ability to change the RAM and HD is tantamount to a car manufacturer sealing the hood of a car preventing you changing the oil, washer fluid, brake fluid, coolant or any other user-serviceable item requiring a complete engine change out instead. Whats the sense?
I don't know how to car - at all - but those things are far cheaper, and very easy, to replace myself - just like RAM in a computer.
Nope, those are maintenance items. If a car manufacturer could develop lifetime fluids and belts (and plugs... etc) there would be no need to open the hood. (and they would likely bolt it closed, similar to what they do with batteries in Hybrids & electric cars)
Ram is not a consumable (like washer fluid) nor does it need periodic maintenance (like belts, hoses, oil etc) so you analogy is just flat incorrect.
actually my current MBP 13" and iMac 21.5" are the FIRST Macs with soldered RAM I've ever seen ... Apple user since 1989
As I recall the original Mac had soldered in RAM, that would be 1984.
Nope, those are maintenance items. If a car manufacturer could develop lifetime fluids and belts (and plugs... etc) there would be no need to open the hood. (and they would likely bolt it closed, similar to what they do with batteries in Hybrids & electric cars)
Ram is not a consumable (like washer fluid) nor does it need periodic maintenance (like belts, hoses, oil etc) so you analogy is just flat incorrect.
Wanting to swap out[upgrade] RAM in a computer to make it run smoother is no different than wanting to change the oil in a car to make it run smoother. If I'd have been unable to upgrade the RAM or HD in any of my laptops they'd have had far shorter lifespans, and likewise if you never changed your cars fluids then you'd be running to the car garage for a new one every couple of years.
Both when properly maintained last a hell of a lot longer, soldered-on RAM and HD just force a complete internal replacement rather than a simple upgrade. Forcing someone to buy a new computer, costing thousands, rather than a simple RAM upgrade a fraction of the cost is exploitation and I don't see how anyone could consider it an appropriate thing to do.
People wouldn't stand it in their car, they shouldn't in their computer, either.
Wanting to swap out[upgrade] RAM in a computer to make it run smoother is no different than wanting to change the oil in a car to make it run smoother. If I'd have been unable to upgrade the RAM or HD in any of my laptops they'd have had far shorter lifespans, and likewise if you never changed your cars fluids then you'd be running to the car garage for a new one every couple of years.
Both when properly maintained last a hell of a lot longer, soldered-on RAM and HD just force a complete internal replacement rather than a simple upgrade. Forcing someone to buy a new computer, costing thousands, rather than a simple RAM upgrade a fraction of the cost is exploitation and I don't see how anyone could consider it an appropriate thing to do.
People wouldn't stand it in their car, they shouldn't in their computer, either.
Oh please your tired diatribe has reached the level of absurdity. Don't you ever feel embarrassed to write this kind of nonsense?
No changing Oil (or belts or oil or windshield washer fluid ) is NOT like upgrading RAM (or CPU or disk drive). That would be more akin to swapping out the exhaust or intake system (for better performance)
Fluid changes are -maintenance- in a car the car needs to have them done, A desktop (or laptop) computer needs no maintenance.
A desktop (or laptop) computer needs no maintenance.
LOL you almost caught me. I had a reply but saw this at the end and released your post was satire. Good show
this is where your analogy falls down; your needs have merely outgrown what the computer is capable of providing, equivalent to someone who now has a family of seven no longer able to carry his family in his car that seats four.
The computer and the car are still both perfectly functional.
Most people will go and buy a new larger vehicle once they reach that stage; you're advocating welding a bigger body and some extra seats onto that car of four.
If the engine is powerful enough and the chassis strong enough it just may work…
this is where your analogy falls down; your needs have merely outgrown what the computer is capable of providing, equivalent to someone who now has a family of seven no longer able to carry his family in his car that seats four.
The computer and the car are still both perfectly functional.
Most people will go and buy a new larger vehicle once they reach that stage; you're advocating welding a bigger body and some extra seats onto that car of four.
If the engine is powerful enough and the chassis strong enough it just may work…
I'm sorry, but the process of changing ram in a computer is about as difficult as putting petrol in the car. It's far, far easier than an oil change and is, in most computers including a lot of Apples, a process that takes nothing more than a few minutes (if that) with zero setup software-side. It's in no way comparable to welding a new portion onto an existing car. It's an incredibly simple and should be cheap way to increase performance on an aging computer to get more life out of it (or just do routine upgrades) and soldering RAM to the motherboard denies the consumer of this opportunity and this is why I compare it to changing oil.
Comparing changing RAM to re-welding the chassis is a bizarre, at best. You're failing to convince me of any good reason Apple would chose to make the RAM soldered; I can still only see a mad cash grab because there's people out there - like yourself, seemingly - that don't mind forking over unnecessary cash to fund some brand loyalty.
I'm sorry, but the process of changing ram in a computer is about as difficult as putting petrol in the car.
Seriously? Unlike putting petrol in a car, most computers require at least a screwdriver to open the case before you can can even consider changing the RAM.
You say my example of welding the extra body is bizarre, yet you equate RAM in a computer, which doesn't have to be replenished for the computer to function, with gasoline (petrol), the fuel which is expended with the use of the vehicle and has to be constantly replenished.
Petrol is to the car what electricity and battery charge are to the computer.
Also other than keeping it clean and supplying power, the computer, unlike a car, requires no further physical maintenance to retain its full function.
The computer with the 4GB RAM /80 GB drive remains fully functional whether you use it one hour a month or 24/7.
What you failed to understand from my example with the welding is that you're expanding a system that is already perfectly physically functional.
Maybe a better way of expressing this is that you're fitting in extra seats into the same car that had four seats.
Also there's only so much room before you need to buy a new car anyway, just as older motherboards can only address so much of the new memory. Example, the 2008 Macbook can unofficially use 8GB (2x4GB) of memory despite being officially capable of only 4GB (2x2GB) as a maximum. I doubt it'll be able to use the new 8GB memory cards.
You're failing to convince me of any good reason Apple would chose to make the RAM soldered; I can still only see a mad cash grab because there's people out there - like yourself, seemingly - that don't mind forking over unnecessary cash to fund some brand loyalty.
MAJANI doesn't see any good reason for soldering RAM despite the evidence of its advantages. There's plenty out there, you don't need to take my word for it: from the Surface Mount Council Technology Overview:
Less obvious benefits include reduced process costs, higher product quality, reduced handling costs, and higher reliability.
also:
So MAJANI, you're happier to forego reliability for plugging things in and out of your motherboard; you're in the minority, especially when you consider most consumers and even businesses don't waste time with upgrading their computers.
MAJANI doesn't see any good reason for soldering RAM despite the evidence of its advantages. There's plenty out there, you don't need to take my word for it: from the Surface Mount Council Technology Overview
I'd like to point out that you're mistaken on the differences between what through-hole and SMT are and your source from 1999 is actually not relevant. All modern RAM DIMMs use SMT to mount the memory modules to DIMMs and no one is arguing that it's anything but better than older technologies. Having motherboard-integrated memory modules eliminates the DIMM socket and nothing more - the actual modules themselves are the same modules and retain the same global failure rates, which is sitting at an estimate of .84% currently.
What is eliminated using integrated RAM is the hardware failure that can arise from DIMMs themselves becoming unseated (very common) but this is a free repair. If the memory modules themselves fail, the DIMM needs replaced. If the modules are integrated into the motherboard proper, the motherboard needs replaced which is far, far more costly.
Following industry standards, Apple is taking the hit of having to replace the motherboard in roughly 1 in every 119 iMacs sold. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this, as the form factor of the iMac doesn't demand the lower profile (we've seen the teardown) provided which is 99.9% the benefit of integrated modules. In a laptop, sure, but a desktop? Doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it.
I'd like to point out that you're mistaken on the differences between what through-hole and SMT are and your source from 1999 is actually not relevant. All modern RAM DIMMs use SMT to mount the memory modules to DIMMs and no one is arguing that it's anything but better than older technologies. Having motherboard-integrated memory modules eliminates the DIMM socket and nothing more - the actual modules themselves are the same modules and retain the same global failure rates, which is sitting at an estimate of .84% currently.
What is eliminated using integrated RAM is the hardware failure that can arise from DIMMs themselves becoming unseated (very common) but this is a free repair. If the memory modules themselves fail, the DIMM needs replaced. If the modules are integrated into the motherboard proper, the motherboard needs replaced which is far, far more costly.
Following industry standards, Apple is taking the hit of having to replace the motherboard in roughly 1 in every 119 iMacs sold. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this, as the form factor of the iMac doesn't demand the lower profile (we've seen the teardown) provided which is 99.9% the benefit of integrated modules. In a laptop, sure, but a desktop? Doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it.
This indicates that you think you are smarter than Jony Ive.
This indicates that you think you are smarter than Jony Ive.
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.