Ireland's Sinn Fein party says it will pursue Apple if company owes back taxes

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 56
    softekysofteky Posts: 137member
    Two can play that game.

    EU retroactively finds Apple to have been offered illegal state aid in the form of lowered taxation. Apple pays Ireland $8b.

    Apple sells a zero-interest bond, re-payable in 9999 years, to Ireland for $8b that Ireland buys with the proceeds of their windfall.

    Apple claims tax relief on their $8b loss
    Apple pays tax on their $8b receipt

    All square.

    (I'm sure it's not quite as simple as that but I'm equally sure Apple's accountants can work something out)
  • Reply 22 of 56
    Sinn Fein will blow up the plant if you cross them. 

    But seriously, "Bring jobs to Ireland and we'll give you tax breaks. Then once we've got the jobs we'll make you give back e erything you saved"?
    edited January 2016
  • Reply 23 of 56
    As Cook and others have rightly stated fix the tax laws, Apple will pay whatever is required. As evidenced by the recent Republican tax break approval, the tax laws are getting even more complicated in the US. I am sure similar situation exists in Europe and elsewhere as Governments use tax laws to regulate behavior of citizen and economic behavior of business. 

    These so rarely work out the way the legislators intend and distract from the purpose of taxes to raise revenue to pay for Government services approved by legislature and citizens. It drives companies and individuals to seek tax advantages versus proper business and personal investments. 

    One can disagree on what is appropriate Government service and what tax burden the country can or should support, e.g., conservative vs liberal ideologies stereotypes, but clarity, simplicity, and "fairness" should be pre-eminent. 

    Ireland set up laws that it deemed important to drive investment and in that endeavor it succeeded, but being part of the EU puts it under their rules as well. The courts will eventually sort this out in the EU at which time Apple will pay or not depending on the outcome. Apple has said as much. It does not need to be pursued based on potential illegal laws in Ireland. 
  • Reply 24 of 56
    metrixmetrix Posts: 256member
    Just raise prices higher for European sales to recover lost profit and keep it as tax as a cost for doing business in Europe.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 25 of 56
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    metrix said:
    Just raise prices higher for European sales to recover lost profit and keep it as tax as a cost for doing business in Europe.
    You don't think the considerably higher prices would discourage buyers and further accelerate Android marketshare?
  • Reply 26 of 56
    metrix said:
    Just raise prices higher for European sales to recover lost profit and keep it as tax as a cost for doing business in Europe.
    I think doubling or tripling the price of all Apple products in the EU should do it...but then again people would abandon Apple for Damsung and Microsoft instead, no?
  • Reply 27 of 56
    gwydion said:
    mjtomlin said:
    Why doesn't the EU just come out and ask Apple to bail out all their bankrupt countries instead of wasting time with all this, "We screwed up our tax laws, now YOU must pay for it!" ?

    Because it has nothing to do with tax laws but with allegedly ilegal state aids
    Allegedly. It's also claimed that Apple has been taxed at the same rate as everyone else.

    Bottom line, it sounds an awful lot like "gimme, gimme, gimme" to me.
  • Reply 28 of 56

    cnocbui said:
    jdgaz said:
    All taxes are in the end paid by the consumer in the cost of goods.
    No they aren't.

    However, all taxes that multinational corporations dodge are eventually made up for by increases in taxes and charges levied on consumers.
    Taxes paid by a company increase that company's costs. To make a profit (the only way a company can stay in business) they have to raise prices to their customers to cover the additional cost of taxes.

    So yes, whether additional taxes are levied directly on consumers, or via higher product prices, consumers wind up paying all taxes in the end.
    suddenly newton
  • Reply 29 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    softeky said:
    Two can play that game.

    EU retroactively finds Apple to have been offered illegal state aid in the form of lowered taxation
    There is nothing found retroactively
    singularity
  • Reply 30 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member

    gwydion said:

    Because it has nothing to do with tax laws but with allegedly ilegal state aids
     It's also claimed that Apple has been taxed at the same rate as everyone else.
    No, it isn't claimed that. Some companies allegedly had "secret" agreements with Irish government.
    singularity
  • Reply 31 of 56
    Whatever happened to pursuing the independence of the northern counties? Seems more important.

    Oh, and battening down for the collapse of the Euro. What good is a settlement from Apple if the currency is worthless?
  • Reply 32 of 56
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,432member
    The key quote here is... "By funneling money through Irish subsidiaries and exploiting loopholes,..." If the issue is poorly written laws, then they need to go back and close the loopholes. You can't say oops, we really meant this. It is the duty of every taxpayer, personal and corporate, to minimize the taxes you pay by any legal means possible. If that means exploiting a mistake until it is corrected, so be it.
    ewtheckmantdknox
  • Reply 33 of 56
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,622member
    rob53 said:
    I agree with the concept of taxing companies and people to support the operation of a government but why should Apple provide an excessive amount of support? I assume people are already paying some kind of tax on purchases. How many times should any product be taxed? 
    A consumer paid tax when someone buys the product is an entirely separate matter. I've seen others make the same comment regarding VAT as tho Apple is paying it. This is intended to be a tax on a companies profits. FWIW the standard 12.5% corporate rate that Ireland has sounds dang good to me as a US corporate taxpayer. They even get to lop it off the top of any corporate taxes they might owe to the IRS IF they were ever to "bring it home", so it's not double-taxation either. 
    edited January 2016
  • Reply 34 of 56
    SF need the funds. Remember their
    Rayz2016 said:
    So, earlier this week, Apple's Ireland HQ was evacuated due to a bomb threat, and now the IRA's political wing threatens to 'pursue' Apple for back taxes. 

    Mmmmm. 
    main source of funds was the Irish-American community. Now that there is relative peace in Ulster their funds seem to have dried up somewhat.
  • Reply 35 of 56
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    gwydion said:

    Because it has nothing to do with tax laws but with allegedly ilegal state aids
    Allegedly. It's also claimed that Apple has been taxed at the same rate as everyone else.

    Bottom line, it sounds an awful lot like "gimme, gimme, gimme" to me.
    Who has claimed Apple is being taxed at the same rate as everyone else?  Certainly not Tim Cook.  Apple has been paying less than 2%.  The corporate tax rate in Ireland is 12.5%

    cnocbui said:
    No they aren't.

    However, all taxes that multinational corporations dodge are eventually made up for by increases in taxes and charges levied on consumers.
    Taxes paid by a company increase that company's costs. To make a profit (the only way a company can stay in business) they have to raise prices to their customers to cover the additional cost of taxes.

    So yes, whether additional taxes are levied directly on consumers, or via higher product prices, consumers wind up paying all taxes in the end.
    You don't seem to get it.  Even if Apple had been paying the full 12.5% Irish corporation tax they should have, they would still have been 26.5% less tax than they would have in the US, where they actually sell everything for less than they do in the EU.  So pull the other one.

    No, it has nothing to do with product prices - a recent OECD report found that taxes dodged by companies get passed onto consumers in the form of increased taxes and charges.
    edited January 2016 ronn
  • Reply 36 of 56
    metrixmetrix Posts: 256member
    cnocbui said:
    metrix said:
    Just raise prices higher for European sales to recover lost profit and keep it as tax as a cost for doing business in Europe.
    You don't think the considerably higher prices would discourage buyers and further accelerate Android marketshare?
    Not sure about just Europe but worldwide Android market share is down 2% from last year and Apple share is up 2%. The good news is Apple's share is only 14% that's a lot of potential for growth. 
  • Reply 37 of 56
    cnocbui said:
    Allegedly. It's also claimed that Apple has been taxed at the same rate as everyone else.

    Bottom line, it sounds an awful lot like "gimme, gimme, gimme" to me.
    Who has claimed Apple is being taxed at the same rate as everyone else?  Certainly not Tim Cook.  Apple has been paying less than 2%.  The corporate tax rate in Ireland is 12.5%
    What Tim Cook has said is that they are obeying the law and have paid all the taxes required by the laws. If the law provides a method where they can pay less than 2% and they legally pay such a rate, then they are not doing anything illegal. Looking at a wealthy company as a source for taking more and more money IS "gimme, gimme, gimme". (For example, Harry Reid couldn't become a millionaire while in office without some of that money flowing into his pockets.)

    cnocbui said:

    You don't seem to get it.  Even if Apple had been paying the full 12.5% Irish corporation tax they should have, they would still have been 27% less tax than they would have in the US, where they actually sell everything for less thhan they do in the EU.  So pull the other one.

    No, it has nothing to do with product prices - a recent OECD report found that taxes dodged by companies get passed onto consumers in the form of increased taxes and charges.
    No. You don't get it. Paying taxes on profits earned in a foreign country to that country is not a "dodge". (You sound to be greedily eyeing that money too.) The United States is the only country in the world that tries to lay claim to taxes on profits that were earned entirely outside the U.S. That this is the case should be a clue that it's not a legitimate practice.

    Paying more taxes, no matter where, is an increase to the entire company's costs. Those costs must be covered by income, or the company goes out of business. That is a simple fact which you seem unable to grasp or admit. In large, international companies like Apple, that increase in prices can (and usually is) be limited to the portion of the world where that tax applies, but the prices must go up somewhere if taxes go up or the company eventually ceases to function. (See: killing the goose that laid the golden egg.)
    edited January 2016
  • Reply 38 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    mike1 said:
    The key quote here is... "By funneling money through Irish subsidiaries and exploiting loopholes,..." If the issue is poorly written laws, then they need to go back and close the loopholes. You can't say oops, we really meant this. It is the duty of every taxpayer, personal and corporate, to minimize the taxes you pay by any legal means possible. If that means exploiting a mistake until it is corrected, so be it.
    The EU case is not about loopholes so that quote is not only a key quote but it is a wrong thing to apply to this case
    ronn
  • Reply 39 of 56
    gwydion said:
    mike1 said:
    The key quote here is... "By funneling money through Irish subsidiaries and exploiting loopholes,..." If the issue is poorly written laws, then they need to go back and close the loopholes. You can't say oops, we really meant this. It is the duty of every taxpayer, personal and corporate, to minimize the taxes you pay by any legal means possible. If that means exploiting a mistake until it is corrected, so be it.
    The EU case is not about loopholes so that quote is not only a key quote but it is a wrong thing to apply to this case
    That is the allegation, not a proven fact. And like I just said to cnocbui, Tim Cook has emphatically and repeatedly stated that they do obey the laws.
  • Reply 40 of 56
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    gwydion said:
    The EU case is not about loopholes so that quote is not only a key quote but it is a wrong thing to apply to this case
    That is the allegation, not a proven fact. And like I just said to cnocbui, Tim Cook has emphatically and repeatedly stated that they do obey the laws.
    Yes, is the allegation. But Tim Cook saying that they obey the laws and the quote have nothing to do with what the case is about
    ronn
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