I think that was a foolish move on their part. I thought the chip reader was a good idea, until I realized it is less secure than debit cards. They have direct access to you bank account, but don't require a pin. Card dropped on the Walmart parking lot and there's a shopping spree before you even know it's gone. All they have to do is stick the card and leave it.
That is not quite the way it works, or at least not the way it should work. Although most retailers don't bother, they really should require a matching photo ID with the credit card. Even though a debit card uses a pin, it is not as protected as a credit card if it does get compromised. Credit cards offer much better reimbursement if it is compromised, hence I favor credit card over debit except at ATMs. The purpose of the chip card is that greatly reduces the ability of a store clerk from double swiping the card and then using the data in duplicating the mag-stripe on a fake card.
Require a photo ID! That's nuts. Should just be, customer inserts card chip into terminal then punches in PIN. That's how it's done in Canada. Actually more commonly now since our terminals have NFC we just tap the card to the terminal and that's it. I've even heard that some USA stores that offer card tapping still require a signature after you tap, that's crazy! That's what Walgreens did when I tapped my Canadian Credit Card in Vegas.
Great can we get more retailers now? Yes I'm looking at you Target.
Like many other US retailers, Target just replaced all of their terminals with new chip reader models sans NFC. They are not likely to replace them again any time soon. Same situation with Home Depot.
I don't even understand what you're saying here (?) Why on earth would Target and Home Depot need to replace their new NFC terminals? What are you talking about??
I suppose it's possible Home Depot actually replaced the terminals with less capable ones, but if they did, they replaced them with used lookalikes: the exteriors are identical, right down to the wear marks.
Look on the bottom of the terminal. The new ones have a chip reader, which are required to be used if the credit card has a chip.
Why on earth would Target and Home Depot need to replace their new NFC terminals? What are you talking about??
Do you know for a fact that the terminals they are using have NFC? If they are NFC capable, they do not work. If you try this web page you can find all the stores near you that accept contactless payments for Master Card.
Just used Apple Pay at McDonalds...the worker did not believe that i ran payment because i never pulled out a credit card. I had to get the manager to come over and he rolled his eyes and said "yes that is Apple pay"...I agree it is getting better but a huge training effort needs to be put in place. I also had a small merchant where I get may haircut use the new square reader for Apple Pay. Worked awesome. I had been bugging her from the beginning to get it and now she has it. She said square actually is giving them out for free. They basically put your next $50 in fees towards the payment of the reader...great way to get smaller merchants to hop on board.
The first video demos of ApplePay were cringeworthy. Cashiers were cofused, asking for signatures etc. I thought by now this would be over.
Apple could probably have bought out Square* or done something similar, leveraged it's incredible hardware design and assembly skills, and offered a 1.75% fee (instead of Square's 2.75%), and made a killing of it.....
They still could, if they wanted to.
(*Its current market cap is ~$3B, so $4.0-$4.5B offer, which is chump change for Apple, will probably suffice!).
Or skippit, and build the technology right into the iPhone, iPad, and iPod. Every device a terminal.
I mentioned this after ApplePay's launch and got flamed for it. It's so logical. iPod/iPad with NFC can clear a ton of problems and even display the ApplePay logo in large print. A ton of retailers are already using iPads as POS systems. The opportunity is front and center and Apple does nothing. Imagine an Apple RetailOS?
I think an iPod terminal would be futuristic as heck.
I mean look at how old some of these are:
The posibilities:
Add Apple elegance and huge ApplePay logo when needed and you have a nice system. Of course it'll still accept DroidPay and NFC since it's built in. This would solve an irritating problem I have at stores. I usually stare at the cashiers POS while I'm getting rung up to make sure the prices are rung up correctly, I've lost a lot of money when not paying attention.
With this terminal I can look at the iPod/iPad that's right in front me me, instead of asking the cashier what the price of something is or staring into their outdated screen a few feet away. This would also solve a lot of restaurant problems such as the classic "Can you repeat my order?"
One good thing I’m seeing now is that retail clerks are more aware of Apple Pay and NFC payments in general. I get a lot less of the, “I’ve never seen that. What is that? Your watch?” comments these days.
True: the groceries I frequent the clerks barely look up anymore.
How many card issuers does AP need to be successful? In Europe we have bank cards that do the same and cost a fraction of a fraction of an iPhone, I don't think anyone will be interested even if it is available.
Bank cards that use an anonimised tokenization system? That's terrific.
Like many other US retailers, Target just replaced all of their terminals with new chip reader models sans NFC. They are not likely to replace them again any time soon. Same situation with Home Depot.
I think that was a foolish move on their part. I thought the chip reader was a good idea, until I realized it is less secure than debit cards. They have direct access to you bank account, but don't require a pin. Card dropped on the Walmart parking lot and there's a shopping spree before you even know it's gone. All they have to do is stick the card and leave it.
All these vendors care about is capturing as much buyer data as possible and if that exposes the buyers information to system hacks, that's just too bad.
That is not quite the way it works, or at least not the way it should work. Although most retailers don't bother, they really should require a matching photo ID with the credit card. Even though a debit card uses a pin, it is not as protected as a credit card if it does get compromised. Credit cards offer much better reimbursement if it is compromised, hence I favor credit card over debit except at ATMs. The purpose of the chip card is that greatly reduces the ability of a store clerk from double swiping the card and then using the data in duplicating the mag-stripe on a fake card.
Require a photo ID! That's nuts. Should just be, customer inserts card chip into terminal then punches in PIN. That's how it's done in Canada. Actually more commonly now since our terminals have NFC we just tap the card to the terminal and that's it. I've even heard that some USA stores that offer card tapping still require a signature after you tap, that's crazy! That's what Walgreens did when I tapped my Canadian Credit Card in Vegas.
They're checking for identity to make sure the card is being used by the owner: not a bad thing overall. That card may not be "fake" but the buyer sure could be with a wallet pickpockets etc.
I suppose it's possible Home Depot actually replaced the terminals with less capable ones, but if they did, they replaced them with used lookalikes: the exteriors are identical, right down to the wear marks.
Look on the bottom of the terminal. The new ones have a chip reader, which are required to be used if the credit card has a chip.
They had chip readers before May. I've been looking at these pretty carefully since Apple Pay went live.
Great can we get more retailers now? Yes I'm looking at you Target.
Like many other US retailers, Target just replaced all of their terminals with new chip reader models sans NFC. They are not likely to replace them again any time soon. Same situation with Home Depot.
That's unfortunate. Kohls, Macys, and Walgreens it is then!
The chip and pin is so ridiculously cumbersome compared to just swiping, let alone Apple Pay. I always make a point to politely and casually ask for Apple Pay wherever I am.
BTW, the Wanelo shopping app has incorporated Apple Pay and it works great. It's a great discovery app, and it's fun to browse if you ever need to kill some time.
I don't even understand what you're saying here (?)
Why on earth would Target and Home Depot need to replace their new NFC terminals? What are you talking about??
Actually I was mistaken about Home Depot. They are using Ingenico iSC250 which does support NFC although HD is apparently not using it and it has no symbols to indicate it is contactless. As for Target they are using Verifone MX 925 without the NFC option. The MX 925 with NFC has a big module on top with symbols indicating it is NFC capable. Target's don't have that.
And still the Australian bank cartel prevent ApplePay from really taking off in Australia. Finally we can use it via American Express but it's limited. ConBank (AKA Commonwealth Bank) the rest really need to do their users some justice and give choice to the end user. Appalling quite honestly.
Sounds all well and good however many security vulnerabilities assuming you are talking about an e-commerce webpage. Apple would never allow this. The secure chip needs to communicate directly with Apple's validation server. The only way it can work is through an iOS app or a retail POS. The encrypted token can't be sent to a web page. The only way I could see it working is if the retailer had an iOS app and you were a registered user. Then after filling up your basket on the web page, clicking 'Next' the web page could trigger a notification to your iOS device where you could open the app and your shopping basket would be displayed. Then you could complete the transaction through the iOS app.
The retailer would have an account with Apple where it generated a transaction event on the Apple Pay server with an amount to pay, the validation would happen completely separately from the website. The phone would then contact the Apple Pay server directly. This can be initiated with a bluetooth or wifi link action or there can be a notification sent back from Apple's server to the phone if the website bundles some contact info and this would validate the payment.
Once that happens, the website is then notified that the transaction event has taken place and that's the order complete. At no point does any payment process or token go via the website itself, the transaction event is between the phone and the Apple Pay server. The e-commerce site could get away with storing no personal information about you whatsoever (legally they'd probably need to store the Apple Pay transaction ids), which is what a lot of small online retailers try to do because it lowers their liability.
It might have implications for fraud the other way like if an e-commerce site rips off a customer, the customer would try to do a chargeback. Online transaction services would typically maintain a reserve of funds from the retailer to cover this and Apple would obviously vet the e-commerce companies and start with the most reputable.
Retail stores might be able to do transactions the same way to save having to hang NFC readers out a drive-through window but it's trickier in retail to get that local connection anonymously to connect the phone to the right transaction event, it's much easier to do this via personal computers.
The retailer would have an account with Apple where it generated a transaction event on the Apple Pay server with an amount to pay, the validation would happen completely separately from the website. The phone would then contact the Apple Pay server directly. This can be initiated with a bluetooth or wifi link action or there can be a notification sent back from Apple's server to the phone if the website bundles some contact info and this would validate the payment.
Your first remarks specifically mentioned small retailers but as I wrote, the iOS device is really the only way to work with Apple Pay so the retailer would have to have an app and you would have to be registered and logged in with them prior to starting your shopping session, so no brand new first time shopping on a new site as you suggested before. In order to put that sort of e-commerce solution together you would have to have more resources than a typical small retailer would have.
The retailer can't generate the token without the phone present because it needs the secure element where it encrypts the device ID with a secure certificate. I don't think we will ever see any stand alone e-commerce solutions using Apple Pay that do not include an iOS device with an app or a POS terminal in retail. No mash-ups of website and background intermediate payment servers.
Take a look at this WWDC video for a better explanation.
In UK almost all was done at launch. Major banks and this was it. Withe exception of Barclays morons that hoped they will kill Apple Pay with their wrist bands
Problem is getting aboard all the retailers and the biggest problem is limiting payment to 30£. Same rule for contactless credit card without pin and Apple Pay with fingerprint authentication... Stupid...
Apple Pay allows your customers to make easy and secure contactless payments at any amount. If your payment terminal or payment provider doesn’t support the latest network specifications, as with contactless debit and credit cards today, your customers might need to insert their card if the transaction amount is over £30.
To accept Apple Pay for transactions over £30, your payment terminal must be capable and configured properly, and your payment provider needs to support the latest network contactless specifications...
However, most retailers seem to have the same rules as for other contactless - either they do not wish to or do not have the right terminals / configuration. Hopefully they will upgrade as the number of Apple Pay transactions increases.
In other news, Samsung has doubled their banks from 30 to 60.
This is a race Samsung can't win. By the time they get most banks online their MST technology will be obsolete.
I disagree. Samsung's technology can be used in more places than any other mobile payment technology. It is here to stay for the long haul. What good is NFC if you cant use it anywhere else?
With Samsung Pay, you can use it anywhere you can tap or swipe. That is practically everywhere.
Just the other day I saw a man use it in a mom and pop shop grocery downtown. The cashier couldnt believe what just happened.
Samsung also has a one-up on Apple and others in that it can use BOTH NFC and MST technology at the same time. Another thing with Samsung is the user can also use Android Pay. Two different payment systems using two different payment technologies. Talk about diversification and CHOICE. Apple gives you neither.
Canada has had NFC terminals for years. Just need banks to jump on board and we will be good to go. But that will take forever. My bank app doesn't even use Touch ID for logging in yet.....
Comments
Why on earth would Target and Home Depot need to replace their new NFC terminals? What are you talking about??
https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/consumers/features-benefits/contactless/contactless-locator.html
Target and Home Depot are not listed.
I mentioned this after ApplePay's launch and got flamed for it. It's so logical. iPod/iPad with NFC can clear a ton of problems and even display the ApplePay logo in large print. A ton of retailers are already using iPads as POS systems. The opportunity is front and center and Apple does nothing. Imagine an Apple RetailOS?
I think an iPod terminal would be futuristic as heck.
I mean look at how old some of these are:
The posibilities:
Add Apple elegance and huge ApplePay logo when needed and you have a nice system. Of course it'll still accept DroidPay and NFC since it's built in.
This would solve an irritating problem I have at stores. I usually stare at the cashiers POS while I'm getting rung up to make sure the prices are rung up correctly, I've lost a lot of money when not paying attention.
With this terminal I can look at the iPod/iPad that's right in front me me, instead of asking the cashier what the price of something is or staring into their outdated screen a few feet away. This would also solve a lot of restaurant problems such as the classic "Can you repeat my order?"
Bank cards that use an anonimised tokenization system? That's terrific.
All these vendors care about is capturing as much buyer data as possible and if that exposes the buyers information to system hacks, that's just too bad.
The chip and pin is so ridiculously cumbersome compared to just swiping, let alone Apple Pay. I always make a point to politely and casually ask for Apple Pay wherever I am.
BTW, the Wanelo shopping app has incorporated Apple Pay and it works great. It's a great discovery app, and it's fun to browse if you ever need to kill some time.
Once that happens, the website is then notified that the transaction event has taken place and that's the order complete. At no point does any payment process or token go via the website itself, the transaction event is between the phone and the Apple Pay server. The e-commerce site could get away with storing no personal information about you whatsoever (legally they'd probably need to store the Apple Pay transaction ids), which is what a lot of small online retailers try to do because it lowers their liability.
It might have implications for fraud the other way like if an e-commerce site rips off a customer, the customer would try to do a chargeback. Online transaction services would typically maintain a reserve of funds from the retailer to cover this and Apple would obviously vet the e-commerce companies and start with the most reputable.
Retail stores might be able to do transactions the same way to save having to hang NFC readers out a drive-through window but it's trickier in retail to get that local connection anonymously to connect the phone to the right transaction event, it's much easier to do this via personal computers.
The retailer can't generate the token without the phone present because it needs the secure element where it encrypts the device ID with a secure certificate. I don't think we will ever see any stand alone e-commerce solutions using Apple Pay that do not include an iOS device with an app or a POS terminal in retail. No mash-ups of website and background intermediate payment servers.
Take a look at this WWDC video for a better explanation.
https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2015-702/
However, most retailers seem to have the same rules as for other contactless - either they do not wish to or do not have the right terminals / configuration. Hopefully they will upgrade as the number of Apple Pay transactions increases.