apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.
Ireland's population is roughly 4.6million. 6000 employees is 0.13% of the population, hardly a large percentage. Even the discount clothing store Primark has 4000 employees in Eire. Kerry Group (a dairy company) has 24000 employees, CRH has 89000+ employees, Ryanair, the budget airline has over 9500 employees. Smurfit Kappa employs 43000+ irish while Allergan has 30000 strong workforce in the country. Don't kid yourself thinking Apple is the BIG player, Google has the same 6000 employee figure there too, even the betting company Paddy Power has more at 7000 employees.
And Apple doesnt really employ that many Irish people in Cork, as the jobs are support for Europe, Asia and Africa for which they prefer native speakers, although of course they do contribute to the tax take and the economy,
So you're saying Ireland doesn't really want or value those 6000 jobs?
I'll tell you this. If the EU demands $19 billion from Apple there will be war.
I mean literally war between the USA and the supporters of the EU. I mean war as tanks, planes, and bombs.
If the EU can take back taxes from the Double Irish other companies like Microsoft, Google, Starbucks, ect will lose also.... Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000? Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU.
Hell no.
This is all a dog and pony show by the EU. They will judge that Ireland was guilty but the back tax will be an insignificant amount.
Starbucks already lost as did Fiat. Those rulings came before the one involving Ireland and by extension Apple. That's one of many reasons it's believed Apple will not emerge unscathed either.
Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000? Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU."
I see no reason Google or Apple or Microsoft would repatriate their overseas holdings. Why would they/ What do they need it here for? They already have billions here if something needs buying. If they need more then borrow the money, it's cheaper. So no the tax money wasn't going to the US Treasury anyway ... UNLESS the US has plans to change tax laws to get it which is entirely possible I suppose.
No, I think the US posturing is aimed at the overall tasx policy and where the money will end up, not Apple nor Google specifically.
Geesh, new estimates peg the potential Apple tax liability from this at as much as $19B?? That's a heck of a lot more than the previous estimates of $8B.
Those estimates are wrong, and laughable. Just more BS to drive the stock price down.
"However, the European Union, the European Commission, is not able to dictate to the member nations what corporate taxation laws should be. It is, however, allowed to involve itself in (in fact tasked with) policing illegal state aid. This is where one company is offered preferential treatment: and a preferential tax rate is considered to be a form of that state aid which may indeed be illegal."
"That point being that the structure is in fact the Double Irish. There is one Irish company which is Irish taxable: there’s another Irish company which is not Irish taxable. And the profits from the first are sent off as royalties for the use of intellectual property into the second. That second Irish company, being not Irish resident, is not Irish taxable (Ireland operates a territorial tax system which makes this so).
This structure is available to all: it is not preferential. Thus it is not and cannot be state aid."
What Apple is doing is NOT state aid since the double Irish was available to EVERY OTHER COMPANY IN IRELAND. So Apple did not get preferrential treatment, thus no state aid.
That article's author did say he might have to eat his hat since he might be wrong.
The fact is this: The EU cannot tell Ireland what tax policy it must use. Ireland can charge Apple a 0% tax and the EU can't do a single thing about it. NOT A DAMN THING.
As long as Ireland allows every other corporation to have that same 0% tax...
Then you may have a moot argument. This is not a tax avoidance strategy available to every other corporation is it? In fact it may be unique to Apple alone as it reportedly relies on some very old agreements from back in the 80's and used for a liberal interpretation of US tax laws on transfer pricing, and then combined with special taxing arrangements with some Irish officials.
Here's an article that I see as a more reliable explanation of how it's all done. If accurate t should be plain to you that Apple is in a unique position to take advantage of it. Of course if this avoidance strategy falls apart there are others used by the likes of Facebook and Google and Microsoft tho perhaps not quite as effective. http://www.forbes.com/sites/leesheppard/2013/05/28/how-does-apple-avoid-taxes/#2e31123dd6f7
Sorry but all those Irish laws that Apple took advantage of was also available to any other company in Ireland. That was not preferrential treatment.
Just reading the first two paragraphs of that article you linked, its pretty clear this lady has an obvious bone to pick with Apple.
Apple was not getting special treatment. Facebook, Google, Amazon, Starbucks, ect all did the same thing. The Double Irish has been widely known for years and available to any company.
Just keep in mind how biased this author is. Look at here first paragraph:
"Apple, a consumer products company that sells beautifully designed gadgets, pays very little tax anywhere in the world, including the United States."
What total and utter bullshit. Apple pays little taxes in the US? What kind of crap is that? Apple pays more corporate tax than anyone in the US. Total and Utter crap spewed by this biased writer.
"Apple’s brand halo is slipping."
WTF does that have to do with taxes?
People who did not make good choices money-wise are just envious of Apple because Apple made very good choices about how to manage it's money. That's all and some of those a-holes happen to be in power and see an opportunity to grab some cash for free. Totally unethical.
Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new.
You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
That's not quite true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.
apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.
so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.
if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
There are a lot of immature Euros on here who don't understand the most rudimentary foundation of business... Whatever local community or city or state decides to do with a company is up to them. To have some arbitrary regulatory body create rules and apply them retroactively is unethical at best, but some Euros insist on cheering on this political stupidity
Article 107 of the TFEU (formerly 87 of the TEC) is the law that prohibits state aid as incompatible with competitiveness. It is not being applied retroactively, it's been there for a long time.
10 years later... Were these self-righteous assholes waiting this long so they could build the political capital to pull this bullshit off?
Its the Double Irish tax strategy that leads to the grand majority of Apple's tax savings for foreign profits.
Basically what the Double Irish does is allow multinational companies to transfer profits from a high tax country to a low tax country. In Apple's case the Double Irish allowed Apple to transfer its taxable income from high tax countries (China, Germany, ect) to a low tax country like Bermuta. Any company could have done the exact same thing(and many companies have also used the Double Irish). So Apple did not get any special treatment from Ireland. Thus the EU can do absolutely nothing regarding the Double Irish.
Please note that 95% of Apple's tax savings is coming from the Double Irish. The Double Irish is now illegal and grandfathered companies like Apple can use it till 2020.
What is in question is the profits Apple made in Ireland. In other words the profits made on iPhones actually sold in Ireland. Some documents show Apple only paid 2% tax on those profits while the standard tax rate is 12%. So Apple may have to pay the additional 10% tax if it was a tax break other companies did not have access to. In that case Apple's back taxes would only be about $200 million.
The $19 billion in back taxes being thrown around by the media is absolutely ridiculous and would never happen.
Tim Cook said they don't transfer profits to places like the Bermudas, using "gimmicks" like the Double Irish you keep referring to. So no Apple doesn't use the strategy you think they do unless Mr. Cook was lying. I believe you are a bit confused.
Cook: "We don't use tax gimmicks," he said. "Apple has real operations in real places, with Apple employees selling real products to real customers. We pay all the taxes we owe, every single dollar. We don't just comply with the law, we comply with the spirit of the law." (!)
Apple has a unique strategy unlike ( and likely not available to) that used by other companies. The well-documented and reported "Double Irish" uses intellectual property licensing to transfer profits thru Ireland and then on to a lower tax country like the Bermudas. Sometimes also called Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich. Google uses that. So does Facebook. I believe Amazon does too. Apple on the other hand found a way to run profits thru a ZERO-TAX entity. If all other companies could do so they naturally would, right? Of course if that happened personal taxpayers would have to take up the slack in tax revenues. You don't mind volunteering another 20% or 30% of your income do you so big, rich companies like Apple and Google and small companies like mine can get richer? I would certainly appreciate it so thanks in advance.
Amazon avoids paying taxes by avoiding making a profit.
If the EU charges Apple $19 billion there will be WAR. Because if Apple is guilty so is Microsoft, Google, and a ton of other USA companies that used the Double Irish.
The total taxes paid to the EU would be over $50 billion
How would USA citizens feel if another country STOLE $50 billion from USA citizens?
They would go to WAR. I mean WAR as in tanks, planes, and bombs.
I hope the EU isn't so stupid to steal $50 billion from USA citizens.
So what you are saying is: If the tax deal is deemed illegal and all forms of appeal are exhausted thus Apple is faced with a payment demand of $50 billion (it would be nowhere near this but hey let's go with your dreamed up number!) The USA would go to war because a private company failed to pay due tax?
How dare the EU investigate a potential breach of the rules and omg then enforce any ruling. There is no punitive recovery if the deal between Apple and Ireland is found to breach the rules.
The problem is that if there was any wrongdoing, it was on the part of Ireland, or the Irish government, not Apple. However, the EU wants to punish Apple.
This is a money grab on the part of the EU, plain and simple. They're thieves and racketeers operating under the color of law.
How is making a company pay the taxes it would have paid anyway, 'punishment'? If this were the US we would be talking the taxes plus a massive fine in addition - that would be punishment.
The worst possible outcome for Apple is that will just have to pay the taxes they should have paid in the first place, so they will be no worse off.
As an Irish tax payer, I can't tell you how much I would love to be 'punished' under the same terms Apple might be, should I ever be found to have not paid the appropriate amount of taxes.
U.S. Treasury Department: "But WE wanted all that Apple money! It's OURS!!!"
You got it spot on. The US Gov wants ALL of the money earned and held (legally) outside the US to be taxed as if it were held in the USA. This is all part of their quest to enforce US Law over every square inch of this planet and basically say 'up yours' to local laws in the process. The US National Debt is IMHO the reason behind this and other moves.
It would surprise me to see a move where a company supplying a US foreign subsidiary in a foreign country be the next target for IRS Tax demands. you do business with any US company anywhere on the planet and you are liable for US taxes on your worldwide operations. That won't go down very well and will IMHO make the 'New USA' of Pres Trump easier to achieve. The Isolationism of the 1930's will pale into insignificance by what could happen if the US took that road.
You should also be aware of Clinton's tax plans:
Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton would raise taxes on businesses and high-income households while making minimal changes to the after-tax incomes of those with low and moderate incomes, according to a new analysis by the Tax Policy Center. Overall, Secretary Clinton would boost federal revenues by $1.1 trillion over the next decade. Those changes would make the tax code more complex, especially for high-income households, and would reduce incentives to work, save, and invest.
People really need to understand the US now has a national debt of $19.4 TRILLION. ( http://www.usdebtclock.org )
The debt has effectively doubled during Obama's term, something unprecedented in our history. On top of this, the labor force participation rate is the lowest it's been since 1978. More crushing debt and fewer people working to pay taxes is a very, very bad combination.
Also note that even though Nokia had these same tax deals through Microsoft after they got bought out Apple still kicked the shit out of them. Apple out-innovated Europe bottom line but the Euros are all butt hurt that we kicked their ass. Apple did so while they were valued at less than Nokia was in 2007. Sore fucking losers!
I'll tell you this. If the EU demands $19 billion from Apple there will be war.
I mean literally war between the USA and the supporters of the EU. I mean war as tanks, planes, and bombs.
If the EU can take back taxes from the Double Irish other companies like Microsoft, Google, Starbucks, ect will lose also.... Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000? Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU.
Hell no.
This is all a dog and pony show by the EU. They will judge that Ireland was guilty but the back tax will be an insignificant amount.
Starbucks already lost as did Fiat. Those rulings came before the one involving Ireland and by extension Apple. That's one of many reasons it's believed Apple will not emerge unscathed either.
Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000? Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU."
I see no reason Google or Apple or Microsoft would repatriate their overseas holdings. Why would they/ What do they need it here for? They already have billions here if something needs buying. If they need more then borrow the money, it's cheaper. So no the tax money wasn't going to the US Treasury anyway ... UNLESS the US has plans to change tax laws to get it which is entirely possible I suppose.
No, I think the US posturing is aimed at the overall tasx policy and where the money will end up, not Apple nor Google specifically.
and how much did Starbucks and Fiat get fined? About $20 million each
small change only.
That's what I expect will happen to Apple.
They weren't fined at all. Luxembourg was ordered to recover $24B in taxes from Fiat based on the actual profits they realized, and Netherlands to recover aronnd $30B from Starbucks for the same reasons.
"Ms. Vestager said the “decisions today show that artificial and complex methods endorsed by tax rulings cannot mask the actual profits of a company, which must be properly and fully taxed.” EU regulators are working on similar investigations involving.... Amazon Inc. in Luxembourg."
EU officials admitted that they couldn’t pursue hundreds of similar investigations. But they said they hoped Wednesday’s decisions would lay down principles for the tax deals that are acceptable, which national governments would be expected to implement.
In Starbucks case, the EU said the company’s Dutch coffee-roasting unit paid a “highly inflated price” to a Swiss unit for green coffee beans, as well as a “very substantial royalty” to another Starbucks entity in the U.K., Alki, that didn’t reflect the value of know-how. Alki, which has since been dissolved by Starbucks, wasn’t liable to pay corporate tax in the U.K. or the Netherlands, Ms. Vestager said."
Hmm... The Starbucks case sounds quite similar to the one employed by Apple. Starbucks won't be able to avoid taxes on the actual profits no matter what EU country they came from. And to be clear just as another poster pointed out, it's not fines against either company anyway. The countries were ordered to recover the taxes from Fiat and Starbucks that should have been paid under normal circumstances. There is no penalty.
Neither of those companies see anywhere near the profits that Apple does, not even close so their tax bills should be nowhere near similar either. Personally I'l be very surprised if Apple avoids paying a few $B rather than the $200 Million you're expecting. Wouldn't be the first time I'm surprised tho and won't be the last.
If the EU charges Apple $19 billion there will be WAR. Because if Apple is guilty so is Microsoft, Google, and a ton of other USA companies that used the Double Irish.
The total taxes paid to the EU would be over $50 billion
How would USA citizens feel if another country STOLE $50 billion from USA citizens?
They would go to WAR. I mean WAR as in tanks, planes, and bombs.
I hope the EU isn't so stupid to steal $50 billion from USA citizens.
So what you are saying is: If the tax deal is deemed illegal and all forms of appeal are exhausted thus Apple is faced with a payment demand of $50 billion (it would be nowhere near this but hey let's go with your dreamed up number!) The USA would go to war because a private company failed to pay due tax?
Economic war. We'll kick your assess at that too. You wussies want only 35 hour work weeks. We'll destroy you
I'll tell you this. If the EU demands $19 billion from Apple there will be war.
I mean literally war between the USA and the supporters of the EU. I mean war as tanks, planes, and bombs.
If the EU can take back taxes from the Double Irish other companies like Microsoft, Google, Starbucks, ect will lose also.... Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000? Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU.
Hell no.
This is all a dog and pony show by the EU. They will judge that Ireland was guilty but the back tax will be an insignificant amount.
Starbucks already lost as did Fiat. Those rulings came before the one involving Ireland and by extension Apple. That's one of many reasons it's believed Apple will not emerge unscathed either.
Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000? Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU."
I see no reason Google or Apple or Microsoft would repatriate their overseas holdings. Why would they/ What do they need it here for? They already have billions here if something needs buying. If they need more then borrow the money, it's cheaper. So no the tax money wasn't going to the US Treasury anyway ... UNLESS the US has plans to change tax laws to get it which is entirely possible I suppose.
No, I think the US posturing is aimed at the overall tasx policy and where the money will end up, not Apple nor Google specifically.
and how much did Starbucks and Fiat get fined? About $20 million each
small change only.
That's what I expect will happen to Apple.
They weren't fined at all. Luxembourg was ordered to recover $24B in taxes from Fiat based on the actual profits they realized, and Netherlands to recover aronnd $30B from Starbucks for the same reasons.
Dude, no way is Fiat going to pay $24 BILLION in back taxes, or Starbucks $30 BILLION.
I think you got your MILLIONS and BILLIONS mixed up.
Like I said Apple will only have to be $200 million or 7x more than Starbucks.
Quite right and thanks for that... Millions instead of Billions. Otherwise I don't believe my post was inaccurate, and if you think that Apple's profits for which they may owe potential taxes are only 7 times those of Starbucks I really don't know what to say.
I suggest we wait a few weeks and see what the EU says.
EU can say whatever they want. They are not getting BILLIONS from Apple.
Apple will appeal this decision for years to come. EU will finally settle for pocket change in a decade.
The stateless provision in Irish tax law that allowed Apple to pay less than 12% on $7 billion in profits is available to any company doing business in Ireland.
It is in Ireland's legal right to charge Apple 1% tax as long as this tax is available to all other companies. The EU has ZERO jurisdiction on what rates Ireland can charge companies as long as they are not giving special treatment.
You're correct. No special treatment or special advantages then no foul. Therein lies the question that the EU Commission will answer.
Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new.
You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
That's not quite true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.
apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.
so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.
if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
There are a lot of immature Euros on here who don't understand the most rudimentary foundation of business... Whatever local community or city or state decides to do with a company is up to them. To have some arbitrary regulatory body create rules and apply them retroactively is unethical at best, but some Euros insist on cheering on this political stupidity
Article 107 of the TFEU (formerly 87 of the TEC) is the law that prohibits state aid as incompatible with competitiveness. It is not being applied retroactively, it's been there for a long time.
10 years later... Were these self-righteous assholes waiting this long so they could build the political capital to pull this bullshit off?
Neither Ireland nor Apple are required to submit a regular account of their tax arrangements to the EU. The EU didn't find out about it until recently.
Next excuse please. You keep setting them up, I'll keep knocking them down.
Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new.
You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
That's not quite true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.
apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.
so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.
if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
There are a lot of immature Euros on here who don't understand the most rudimentary foundation of business... Whatever local community or city or state decides to do with a company is up to them. To have some arbitrary regulatory body create rules and apply them retroactively is unethical at best, but some Euros insist on cheering on this political stupidity
Article 107 of the TFEU (formerly 87 of the TEC) is the law that prohibits state aid as incompatible with competitiveness. It is not being applied retroactively, it's been there for a long time.
10 years later... Were these self-righteous assholes waiting this long so they could build the political capital to pull this bullshit off?
Neither Ireland nor Apple are required to submit a regular account of their tax arrangements to the EU. The EU didn't find out about it until recently.
Next excuse please. You keep setting them up, I'll keep knocking them down.
This has been in the media for far to over two years. "They just found out." Yeah right!
How dare the EU investigate a potential breach of the rules and omg then enforce any ruling. There is no punitive recovery if the deal between Apple and Ireland is found to breach the rules.
The problem is that if there was any wrongdoing, it was on the part of Ireland, or the Irish government, not Apple. However, the EU wants to punish Apple.
This is a money grab on the part of the EU, plain and simple. They're thieves and racketeers operating under the color of law.
Does the EU Commission get that money? Not as far as I know. I don't believe the taxes paid will go anywhere but the Irish government. The EU's interest is in better leveling the playing field so that everyone operates under the same rules as much as is practical.
Surely you don't think that small up and coming companies should be at even more of a disadvantage in becoming profitable compared to big multinationals who already struck it rich, partially by avoiding the corporate taxes that smaller (or even quite large) companies cannot. If all companies paid their fair share it might even result in you and me paying less in personal taxes that we have no way to entirely avoid like Apple, Google et al can. IMO the very rich are rich enough and becoming yet richer has no benefit to us peons. At some point it just becomes greed that in fact harms us.
Why does the EU want to force Ireland to accept back taxes Ireland says very publicly they don't want?
That's not quite true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.
This is not true. The first ruling of such illegal member state aid was in Belgium. The biggest victims were AB Inbev, Atlas Copco and BP, all European companies. Because there were no American companies involved, this was not covered by the America press, but it does not mean that this did not happen
People really need to understand the US now has a national debt of $19.4 TRILLION. ( http://www.usdebtclock.org )
The debt has effectively doubled during Obama's term, something unprecedented in our history. On top of this, the labor force participation rate is the lowest it's been since 1978. More crushing debt and fewer people working to pay taxes is a very, very bad combination.
Thanks, Obama!
Ronald Reagan almost tripled the debt. GW Almost doubled the debt. This stuff is easy to look up for some.
The day Ronald Reagan was sworn in - the national debt was 934 billion. The day he left office the debt was 2.697 trillion. Almost TRIPLE. Bush 41 added over 80% and Bush 43 added 110%. The first year a President is in office the budget has already been set by the previous President.
How dare the EU investigate a potential breach of the rules and omg then enforce any ruling. There is no punitive recovery if the deal between Apple and Ireland is found to breach the rules.
The problem is that if there was any wrongdoing, it was on the part of Ireland, or the Irish government, not Apple. However, the EU wants to punish Apple.
This is a money grab on the part of the EU, plain and simple. They're thieves and racketeers operating under the color of law.
Does the EU Commission get that money? Not as far as I know. I don't believe the taxes paid will go anywhere but the Irish government. The EU's interest is in better leveling the playing field so that everyone operates under the same rules as much as is practical.
Surely you don't think that small up and coming companies should be at even more of a disadvantage in becoming profitable compared to big multinationals who already struck it rich, partially by avoiding the corporate taxes that smaller (or even quite large) companies cannot. If all companies paid their fair share it might even result in you and me paying less in personal taxes that we have no way to entirely avoid like Apple, Google et al can. IMO the very rich are rich enough and becoming yet richer has no benefit to us peons. At some point it just becomes greed that in fact harms us.
Why does the EU want to force Ireland to accept back taxes Ireland says very publicly they don't want?
So as to nullify the unique advantage Apple had over other companies. And if you think Ireland don't want that money, you are more clueless than I originally thought.
Comments
Do you really think the US people will allow the EU to STEAL $50,000,000,000?
Because that is exactly what it is. That $50 billion should be going to the USA tax payer not the EU."
I see no reason Google or Apple or Microsoft would repatriate their overseas holdings. Why would they/ What do they need it here for? They already have billions here if something needs buying. If they need more then borrow the money, it's cheaper. So no the tax money wasn't going to the US Treasury anyway ... UNLESS the US has plans to change tax laws to get it which is entirely possible I suppose.
No, I think the US posturing is aimed at the overall tasx policy and where the money will end up, not Apple nor Google specifically.
If the tax deal is deemed illegal and all forms of appeal are exhausted thus Apple is faced with a payment demand of $50 billion (it would be nowhere near this but hey let's go with your dreamed up number!)
The USA would go to war because a private company failed to pay due tax?
The worst possible outcome for Apple is that will just have to pay the taxes they should have paid in the first place, so they will be no worse off.
As an Irish tax payer, I can't tell you how much I would love to be 'punished' under the same terms Apple might be, should I ever be found to have not paid the appropriate amount of taxes.
"Ms. Vestager said the “decisions today show that artificial and complex methods endorsed by tax rulings cannot mask the actual profits of a company, which must be properly and fully taxed.” EU regulators are working on similar investigations involving.... Amazon Inc. in Luxembourg."
EU officials admitted that they couldn’t pursue hundreds of similar investigations. But they said they hoped Wednesday’s decisions would lay down principles for the tax deals that are acceptable, which national governments would be expected to implement.
In Starbucks case, the EU said the company’s Dutch coffee-roasting unit paid a “highly inflated price” to a Swiss unit for green coffee beans, as well as a “very substantial royalty” to another Starbucks entity in the U.K., Alki, that didn’t reflect the value of know-how. Alki, which has since been dissolved by Starbucks, wasn’t liable to pay corporate tax in the U.K. or the Netherlands, Ms. Vestager said."
Hmm... The Starbucks case sounds quite similar to the one employed by Apple. Starbucks won't be able to avoid taxes on the actual profits no matter what EU country they came from. And to be clear just as another poster pointed out, it's not fines against either company anyway. The countries were ordered to recover the taxes from Fiat and Starbucks that should have been paid under normal circumstances. There is no penalty.
Neither of those companies see anywhere near the profits that Apple does, not even close so their tax bills should be nowhere near similar either. Personally I'l be very surprised if Apple avoids paying a few $B rather than the $200 Million you're expecting. Wouldn't be the first time I'm surprised tho and won't be the last.
I suggest we wait a few weeks and see what the EU says.
At 12.5% tax-rate that's potentially $875M, and that's before Apple began seeing the massive iPhone profits in more recent years. I expect $B's to be due. We'll see what the EU says soon enough.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727
For comparison here's an article on Starbucks profits. Note that they don't even come to a Half$B in all of 2015. What do you think Apple's profits run thru Irish companies came to in 2015? Any guess?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/starbuckss-tax-practices-draw-european-scrutiny-1428363189
Next excuse please. You keep setting them up, I'll keep knocking them down.
The day Ronald Reagan was sworn in - the national debt was 934 billion. The day he left office the debt was 2.697 trillion. Almost TRIPLE. Bush 41 added over 80% and Bush 43 added 110%. The first year a President is in office the budget has already been set by the previous President.
https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296