US Treasury guidance could stop Apple from recouping Irish taxes at home

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    qwwera said:
    Love Apple products but you do shady shit, you gotta pay. Hiding all their money and screwing the nation that makes their billions possible is some seriously shady shit. 

    They got the money, heck I hope the government drops the gavel on them and Google and Facebbol and every rich SOB that screws us. Fuck that shit.

    That's some seriously shady shit hiding your earnings in a 401(K) account.  

    Because you do know that delaying repatriation of foreign earnings is essentially the same as holding a portion of your earnings in a 401(K). Both are perfectly legal.  Both make sense as they afford the owner of the money to defer a tax obligation (not avoid, not dodge, not cheat).  Defer.  Perfectly legally.  

    You might have issue with the Irish tax structure that allowed Apple and other businesses to pay a low tax rate to Ireland, but that's a totally separate issue versus Apple holding foreign revenues and earnings overseas. Totally different.  You know that, right?
    Haha that's some bullshit and you know it. But if Carl Icahn wants money Tims upper lip quivers and hoes into debt to pay him. 
    Uncle Sam has to be at least as persuasive as a Wall Street hood.

    look people will doggedly look for loopholes and it is the governments responsibility to shut them down whenever abuse is found. The US governmental by dragging their feet on this is complicit and bums need to be thrown out when shit like this continues unbridled.
    edited September 2016
  • Reply 22 of 46
    dysamoria said:
    "Handout-seekers" being people that think corporations and wealthy citizens should pay more into the system, calling it "socialism", "communism", or other Cold War propaganda nonsense. [rolls eyes]
    If you don't understand who ultimately pays corporate taxes, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

    And, don't conflate the tax situation, tax obligation, and tax loopholes for "wealthy citizens" with those of corporations -- two completely different issues.
  • Reply 23 of 46
    rcfa said:
    People who don't know corporate and tax law should just shut the f* up.
    Apple is legally obliged to pay the least taxes possible and maximize profits, or else they open themselves up to shareholders law suits.
    The only people to blame are the legislators for writing the tax laws; but those are the people crying the loudest to deflect from their responsibility, so they can continue and continue taking lobbyists money.

    As far as US corporations go, Apple pays a lot of taxes, not just in absolute terms, but also in percentage terms; some huge, profitable corporations literally pay ZERO taxes, but people keep picking on Apple, because it makes for better headlines piggybacking one's articles on a high name recognition brand.
    Apple has recently increased their tax payouts to deflect attention. It hasn't worked. GE, Tim Warner, Catepillar, Haliburton, and hundreds more are going to be paying more. Apple is the most visible brand in the world. It's the reason we are discussing them on an Apple Insider web site.

    Yes we know GE got a tax refund to several billion. Close the loop-holes and every large conglomerate will divert those earnings into R&D and growth to avoid paying taxes, or create large dividends, and/or both for shareholders. That spurs growth far more than Apple hording money because the tax code is broken and they [and every other large corporation] can exploit it.


    gatorguy
  • Reply 24 of 46
    rcfa said:
    People who don't know corporate and tax law should just shut the f* up.
    Apple is legally obliged to pay the least taxes possible and maximize profits, or else they open themselves up to shareholders law suits.
    Could you quote the law you're referring to? And what does maximise profits mean? During the quarter? The year? In a decade? If it's in one year then surely R&D is completely illegal as it's not maximising profits, that money should be returned to shareholders. And how does a company like Amazon legally exist, having gone for years focusing on revenue growth rather than profit? I suspect it is you who knows nothing about corporate and tax law, and should in your words, shut the f* up
    singularitygatorguy
  • Reply 25 of 46
    Closing this "loophole" just means that Apple would lower the wages of their employees, or even consider using overseas groups again.  At the end of the day, it's not Apple this is going to hurt.  It's the people they employ who DO pay their local taxes.  
  • Reply 26 of 46
    Remember in the olden days when congress made laws instead of elitist bureaucrats?
    qwwera
  • Reply 27 of 46
    Apple has recently increased their tax payouts to deflect attention. It hasn't worked. GE, Tim Warner, Catepillar, Haliburton, and hundreds more are going to be paying more. Apple is the most visible brand in the world. It's the reason we are discussing them on an Apple Insider web site.

    Yes we know GE got a tax refund to several billion. Close the loop-holes and every large conglomerate will divert those earnings into R&D and growth to avoid paying taxes, or create large dividends, and/or both for shareholders. That spurs growth far more than Apple hording money because the tax code is broken and they [and every other large corporation] can exploit it.




    Your first paragraph made these statements in order:
    1. Apple increase their tax payments to deflect paying more taxes 
    2. Cliché list of SJW boogeyman companies are going to be paying more soon.  (
    3. Apple is popular

    Your second paragraph:
    1. GE got a billion dollar tax refund.
    2. Close loopholes and companies will divert 'evil' profit to R&D and growth, and create large dividends for shareholders.
    3. Apple is hoarding money

    Rebuttals

    Paragraph 1:
    1. You are way early, it's not yet 4:20.  Maybe take it a little slower?
    2. Corporations are soon going to be taxed more... because Hillary? LOL! Because Trump? LOL!  Batman? Luke Skywalker?
    3. Duh, and so?

    Paragraph 2:
    1. This only matters if there's a bad reason for a refund?  It's in their regular public financial filings... go fetch!
    2. Isn't growth and paying dividends to shareholders, exactly what Apple's been doing?  Where have you been the last 15 years?
    3. How is that even remotely a bad thing?  I hoard money in my savings account too.  Apple is bigger and has more, but why should I give anyone my savings, why should Apple?  As a shareholder I see the vast advantages having that cash gives Apple.  Further as a shareholder, Apples assets are already valued into the price of my shares. 

    Here's the thing, you're a bigot. And like all bigots this means you're very ignorant.  You base your dislike of companies or people solely on how much money they have.  None of your statements even follow, because your rant comes from 100% poisoned, broken logic.  
    edited September 2016 croffordpalomineanantksundaramjony0
  • Reply 28 of 46
    Remember in the olden days when you learned economics in high school?
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 29 of 46
    Remember in the olden days when you learned government in high school?


    anantksundaram
  • Reply 30 of 46
    crofford said:
    Remember in the olden days when you learned government in high school?


    Then you grew up and saw how corrupt it had become 
  • Reply 31 of 46
    qwwera said:
    Love Apple products but you do shady shit, you gotta pay. Hiding all their money and screwing the nation that makes their billions possible is some seriously shady shit. 

    They got the money, heck I hope the government drops the gavel on them and Google and Facebbol and every rich SOB that screws us. Fuck that shit.

    That's some seriously shady shit hiding your earnings in a 401(K) account.  

    Because you do know that delaying repatriation of foreign earnings is essentially the same as holding a portion of your earnings in a 401(K). Both are perfectly legal.  Both make sense as they afford the owner of the money to defer a tax obligation (not avoid, not dodge, not cheat).  Defer.  Perfectly legally.  

    You might have issue with the Irish tax structure that allowed Apple and other businesses to pay a low tax rate to Ireland, but that's a totally separate issue versus Apple holding foreign revenues and earnings overseas. Totally different.  You know that, right?
    I'm one of those people who have their Apple stock in an IRA. The problem is taking it out I have to pay at the income tax rate vs the lower capital gains rate. 
  • Reply 32 of 46
    Apple negotiated a deal with Ireland. If the Irish were happy with the deal, then no harm, no foul. Besides, the deal was made before Ireland became a member of the EU. 

    The EU is being pretty disingenuous. This is an attempt at a cash grab because Apple has lots of it. 

    What is the EU doing? Are they really helping Ireland? Because if they are, the Irish certainly aren't wanting it. They are actually appealing the ruling. 

    And if the Greeks, Italians, and whoever else can't manage their respective nation's finances, it isn't Apple's obligation to help with the bailout. 

    The EU needs to sit down with Ireland and perhaps Apple and discuss the situation. The heavy handed tactics aren't helping anyone. 

    Apple will not and should not pay more than what they are legally obligated to do. Whether the laws are fair or not is another issue. 

    Let's look at this from the opposite perspective. If Apple went into Ireland and poisoned the land with toxic waste, going out of business in doing so, would the EU be so willing to pay billions in clean up costs to help the Irish? Where was the EU when BP spilled all of that oil in the Gulf of Mexico? The EU certainly benefitted from all of the petrodollars BP was making. The Gulf coast paid a dear price and the EU said and did nothing. Now they are coming to the rescue of the poor Irish who are being bilked monetarily by Apple. This ranks of pure hypocrisy and those who defend the EU's rank policies stink with the stench of the organization also. Never mind that BP took adavantage of US tax laws also. 

    I suspect the heavy handed rules of the EU are what prompted Brexit. And the EU is doing the same to Ireland. If the Irish aren't given a fair chance, they too may leave the EU. And the continent can do one of two things. Suck it up and watch the organization dissolve. Or go to war against the English and Irish akin to the US Civil war to force them to stay part of the "Union." 
    anantksundaramjony0
  • Reply 33 of 46
    crofford said:
    Remember in the olden days when you learned economics in high school?
    Ah yes. Economics, the Dismal Science.
  • Reply 34 of 46
    If you look at other companies, such as GE and MSFT, etc., they will also have a large liability. So the matter is going to be hotly debated in courts. Retroactive taxation without representation will not stand as the British Empire found out in the 18th century. Nobody will get hands on the "tax" money for a while.  Meanwhile, there may be many cash acquisitions in the EU countries!
  • Reply 35 of 46
    gatorguy said:
    rcfa said:
    People who don't know corporate and tax law should just shut the f* up.
    Apple is legally obliged to pay the least taxes possible and maximize profits, or else they open themselves up to shareholders law suits.
    I keep reading posts saying that but is it true? Honest question because I don't think it is. 

    EDIT: Nevermind. It is not true. Corporations are not required to maximize profits. Instead they are to operate in the best interests of the shareholders.  Look into the business judgment rule (sometimes called doctrine) which pretty much guarantees any shareholder filing a lawsuit over Apple paying taxes would quickly see his lawsuit dismissed as long as Apple's directors weren't doing so for personal gain.

    Perhaps you don't know corporate and tax law as clearly as you thought you did. 
    Googling the "business judgment rule" and then cutting and pasting something doesn't make you an expert on corporate governance. This is a vast subject with tons of nuances, but the OP is essentially correct. It opens up Apple to shareholder lawsuits. 

    (And no, I am not getting into a discussion on this topic with you.)
    edited September 2016
  • Reply 36 of 46
    gatorguy said:

    e1618978 said:
    Title is wrong, it would just delay the tax recoup until Apple brings the taxed money back to the US.
    Spot on. Otherwise, this will be challenged in court by thousands of US companies (and then government will likely lose, since it would upend the bargain implicit in pretty much everything in the tax code).

    The issue will be moot within a year, since Cook has promised to bring a lot of it back. I am guessing that Apple will bring enough back to be able to take a tax credit for any additional amounts paid to the EU. This is a fight between the EU and Ireland (and now between the EU and the US), and Apple, caught in the middle, is simply being unfairly and egregiously maligned.

    (Btw, cue the handout-seekers that will inevitable show up in this thread).
    I don't believe he's promised to bring back a single penny yet has he? If my reading was correct anything Apple might "bring home", and what Mr. Cook was referring to, is predicated on a corporate tax holiday next year isn't it? No holiday then maybe nothing is repatriated. 
    "Might"? "Predicated on a tax holiday"? "Maybe nothing is repatriated?" Can you quit making stuff up?

    Here's the actual quote (Source: CNBC.com): "We paid 400 (million dollars) to Ireland, we paid 400 to the U.S. and we provisioned several billion dollars for the U.S. for payment as soon as we repatriate it and right now I forecast that repatriation to occur next year," Cook said in comments broadcast by RTE."

    Your interpretation on these matters always appears to be tilted to cast Apple in a negative light. 
  • Reply 37 of 46
    gatorguy said:
    qwwera said:
    Love Apple products but you do shady shit, you gotta pay. Hiding all their money and screwing the nation that makes their billions possible is some seriously shady shit. 

    They got the money, heck I hope the government drops the gavel on them and Google and Facebbol and every rich SOB that screws us. Fuck that shit.

    That's some seriously shady shit hiding your earnings in a 401(K) account.  

    Because you do know that delaying repatriation of foreign earnings is essentially the same as holding a portion of your earnings in a 401(K). Both are perfectly legal.  Both make sense as they afford the owner of the money to defer a tax obligation (not avoid, not dodge, not cheat).  Defer.  Perfectly legally.  

    You might have issue with the Irish tax structure that allowed Apple and other businesses to pay a low tax rate to Ireland, but that's a totally separate issue versus Apple holding foreign revenues and earnings overseas. Totally different.  You know that, right?
    I'll assume you were unaware that Apple did not make any allowance for even deferred taxes on upwards of $100B in "overseas profits".  That's according to Apple themselves which would certainly give at least the impression they were avoiding/dodging corporate taxes on nearly half their cash stash. I wouldn't call it cheating tho as it does look as tho whatever tax avoidance structure they used was legal. 
    You know that this is a pure lie on your part, since we discussed this in a prior thread a few weeks ago when the whole thing first cropped up, and you even thanked me for clarifying it for you.

    Here, again, is the relevant quote from Apple's most recent 10K: "The foreign provision for income taxes ($2,938M, which consists of $4,744M in current and $1,806M in deferred taxes) is based on foreign pre-tax earnings of $47.6 billionin 2015. The Company’s consolidated financial statements provide for any related tax liability on undistributed earnings that the Company does not intend to be indefinitely reinvested outside the U.S. Substantially all of the Company’s undistributed international earnings intended to be indefinitely reinvested in operations outside the U.S. were generated by subsidiaries organized in Ireland, which has a statutory tax rate of 12.5%. As of September 26, 2015, U.S. income taxes have not been provided on a cumulative total of $91.5 billion of such earnings. The amount of unrecognized deferred tax liability related to these temporary differences is estimated to be $30.0 billion." (underlining mine). 

    Can you stop with this nonsense? Please?
    edited September 2016
  • Reply 38 of 46
    adamcadamc Posts: 583member
    In 2014, the iPhone maker paid just 0.005 percent on its European profits, a minute fraction of Ireland's standard corporate tax rate.

    This should say "According to the EU report and specifically refuted by Tim Cook, ..." He's said flat out that he has no idea how they came up with that completely erroneous 0.005 percent figure.
    Don't you know the good folks at AI know only regurgitate whatever they read and perhaps they also have a team of tax experts who know all the international tax secrets.
  • Reply 39 of 46
    Besides, the deal was made before Ireland became a member of the EU. 

    In correct. Eire along with the UK and Denmark became members of the EEC (the forerunner of the EU) in 1972. So unless someone has invented Time Travel and create Apple before 1st Jan 1972 then you are incorrect.
    The rules on State Aid applied back in the 1970's just as now. We studied that when I was a student between 1972 and 1975.
    Apple didn't break the law in Ireland but Ireland broke the EEC/EU rules by agreeing the deal with Apple.
    The Taxman cometh and wants their money.
    IT appears that there is no statute of limitations on the EU Money grab.
    The EU finances are in a mess and have been for decades. With the contribution of the UK going to end in a couple of years, it will get worse. At the moment the biggest contributors to the EU are Germany and the UK. Germany won't want to fill that gap. So the money to prop up Greece, Italy and Spain has to come from somewhere. Guess where it will come from eh?

  • Reply 40 of 46
    Herbivore2 said: 
    Apple negotiated a deal with Ireland. If the Irish were happy with the deal, then no harm, no foul. Besides, the deal was made before Ireland became a member of the EU. 
    Wrong, Ireland became a member of the EEC in 1973 (the EEC became the EU in 1992 after the signing of the Maastricht treaty). The agreements between Apple and Ireland which were originally agreed in 1991 and redone in 2007 have been ruled against EU rules which have primacy over any "deals" in other words even if Ireland and Apple were happy with the deal (currently pending appeals) they were voided.
    Herbivore2 said:
    The EU is being pretty disingenuous. This is an attempt at a cash grab because Apple has lots of it. 
    Correct Apple has lots of cash and part of the charge is that they got part of the cash by benefiting from illegal state aid.

    Herbivore2 said:
    Apple will not and should not pay more than what they are legally obligated to do. Whether the laws are fair or not is another issue. 
    absolutely and this is what the case is about. Currently Apple is guilty of not paying its legal obligation, after the appeals we will find out if Apple and Ireland are right or wrong. Fair or not.



    Herbivore2 said:
    Let's look at this from the opposite perspective. If Apple went into Ireland and poisoned the land with toxic waste, going out of business in doing so, would the EU be so willing to pay billions in clean up costs to help the Irish? Where was the EU when BP spilled all of that oil in the Gulf of Mexico? The EU certainly benefitted from all of the petrodollars BP was making. The Gulf coast paid a dear price and the EU said and did nothing. Now they are coming to the rescue of the poor Irish who are being bilked monetarily by Apple. This ranks of pure hypocrisy and those who defend the EU's rank policies stink with the stench of the organization also. Never mind that BP took adavantage of US tax laws also. 

    The BP oil spill has nothing to do with Apples and Ireland issue with the EU ruling. 

    Herbivore2 said:
    I suspect the heavy handed rules of the EU are what prompted Brexit. And the EU is doing the same to Ireland. If the Irish aren't given a fair chance, they too may leave the EU. And the continent can do one of two things. Suck it up and watch the organization dissolve. Or go to war against the English and Irish akin to the US Civil war to force them to stay part of the "Union." 

    go to war?!!! you need some tin foil. Oh by the way you missed out the Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh or will the EU on there campaign of reunification avoid them?

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